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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Sebastian Vidales on March 06, 2014, 09:03:54 AM
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Hi Everyone!
Im actually designing a system for a big festival with few headliners bringing on their own consoles for FOH.
The festival is providing 2 desks both digital with their own stage rack.
Any ideas on how to setup a system where extra consoles can be hooked up into the system?
Connecting them into other consoles is not an option, and the PA system has no processor,all of the processing is done by the digital amps.
Thanks four your thoughts!
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Please change your user name to your (real) full name
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If you have something like a Midas Venice, that will usually work as a "matrix console", where all the boards are fed into that, along with any MC mics or DJs. We've used a Venice32 for this, Midas also has a rackmount matrix console that does exactly this. The other option is something like an APB MixSwitch which is very common for this application.
Regardless of what option you choose, I would highly recommend figuring out a way to get networking to FOH, with a company provided laptop that will live there for the duration of the show. It's important to have control of the system processing on a show like this, if only for monitoring.
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The festival is providing 2 desks both digital with their own stage rack.
Any ideas on how to setup a system where extra consoles can be hooked up into the system?
Connecting them into other consoles is not an option, and the PA system has no processor,all of the processing is done by the digital amps.
The last festival we did we used a Dolby Lake DLP as the matrix between a pair of house VI6 consoles and a Yamaha LS9 as the presenter console with announcer microphones and DJ playback. Each of the VI6's fed Left / Right / Sub to the DLP and the LS9 just fed Left and Right. If we needed to feed a guest console in we unplugged one of the VI inputs. The outputs of the DLP then fed the rest of the system as usual.
Neil
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We usually use a Midas XL88 matrix mixer for this. That way you can have 8 outputs fed from multiple consoles - typically we have House console L/R/Sub, Visiting console L/R/Sub, and then a Playback console (like a small Venice or EPM6, with music, video, emergency announcements, and so on) as a straight L/R.
I'd like to find a larger Matrix mixer, or one which has digital in/out as well as analogue, so that we can deal with whatever the visiting console wants.
The beauty of the XL88 is that it's really easy to re-configure if the visiting console only wants straight L/R, or any other combination. Plus they still have local control of all the zones fed from the Matrix mixer locally.
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I have seen everything from XL88, Meyer Galileo 616, Dolby Lake on some of the larger festivals.
I have been using an Ashly ne24.24m quite a bit lately, it is the most flexible solution I have found. I typically carry an 8x16, 12x12, or 16x8 depending on how many console will be used at one time. The only downfall is no digital IO at this point so it adds another stage of A/D and D/A to the signal chain.
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Thanks all of you guys for the insight and your very valuable opinion,
I think I found a one size fits all solution, the thing is I don't now if the production can afford it :'(
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/print/an_engine_driving_i_o_innovation
I've just imagined something like this based on Dante, with a input module at FOH prepared to received any type of signal (analogue/digital) and break out boxes to the system. Since its going to be d&B so there's no processor in the system by default.
The meyer galilego 616 is also an option and maybe the most probable one, since the vendor also owns a couple.
I'll keep giving it some thought and will keep you guys posted
Thanks again for sahring
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Nothing wrong with a DME, but they are very long in the tooth now!
If you wan't a rackmount matrix, I'd personally do this on Soundweb(s) / Symetrix boxes. They'll do whatever you wan't. They can even do the presenter job as well if you like. Lake's are cool, but unless you need the Mesa EQ, a soundweb will do a heck of a lot more for the same (or maybe less) money. Its also easy to have a pair providing redundancy.
Audio architect lets you build really detailed PC or Ipad control pages that can include mixing functionality, So if you've just got a pair of pres handhelds and a CD, you can forgo the third console
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Has anyone used a DME with the Lake-card(s)?
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Hi Everyone!
Im actually designing a system for a big festival with few headliners bringing on their own consoles for FOH.
The festival is providing 2 desks both digital with their own stage rack.
Any ideas on how to setup a system where extra consoles can be hooked up into the system?
Connecting them into other consoles is not an option, and the PA system has no processor,all of the processing is done by the digital amps.
Thanks four your thoughts!
And this is exactly where I want my imaginary new Midas product.
Basically an X32 rack mount with AES3 and AES50 and 16 analog mic/line inputs, and AES3 and analog outputs with a Dante IO option.
But made by Midas so I was allowed to use it in arenas :)
IPad and front panel control. Plug your MC, video, and playback directly in, along with two or three other consoles.
If I dream it they will make it...
Jason
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And this is exactly where I want my imaginary new Midas product.
Basically an X32 rack mount with AES3 and AES50 and 16 analog mic/line inputs, and AES3 and analog outputs with a Dante IO option.
But made by Midas so I was allowed to use it in arenas :)
IPad and front panel control. Plug your MC, video, and playback directly in, along with two or three other consoles.
If I dream it they will make it...
Jason
PS they kinda do, we are using a PRO 1 as this for this season.
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We use an EV NETMAX N8000 for the job. We have ours loaded with 8 analog inputs / 8 AES inputs / 8 analog outputs / 8 AES outputs. This way you are covered on any type of input they may hand you, and you have AES outputs with the Analog as your redundant lines. We usually have an Ipod and a MC Mic in it as well, that way you don't have to rely on house music or a MC mic coming from the next acts desk. You have the ability to change from subs on aux to L-R with a click of the mouse, depending on what the next engineer may want. Best solution we have found out there that will accommodate pretty much anything you may see.
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Has anyone used a DME with the Lake-card(s)?
I haven't, but you raise a good point. A DME with a Lake card and a Optocore card is a pretty nice idea...
Or maybe one of the MTX processors w/ a lake card. Using Dante for redundant transport to amp world, where a Focusrite Rednet D16 delivers digits to the amps...
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And this is exactly where I want my imaginary new Midas product.
Basically an X32 rack mount with AES3 and AES50 and 16 analog mic/line inputs, and AES3 and analog outputs with a Dante IO option.
But made by Midas so I was allowed to use it in arenas :)
IPad and front panel control. Plug your MC, video, and playback directly in, along with two or three other consoles.
If I dream it they will make it...
Jason
In a way, it's already been done by AVID....The S3L is a 2u rack mount with 64x32 remote I/O over AVB.
You could operate an S3L headless (minus S3 surface) for sum/mix/matrix duty on festival FOH. Add up to 4 Stage 16 remote I/O boxes, plug in your KVM right to the E3, and optionally VNC into the 'desk' via LAN/WiFi for remote control. Very compact and versatile setup, only possibe downside is lack of multiple AES/EBU (2 I/O on E3 and 2 O on each stage box) for console I/O.
An AVID MixRack headless (minus surface) would also work. Build an adapter to fan out KVM from the MixRack's FOH link cable, or just use VNC to remote into it. The MixRack can also be configured to use the Stage 48 remote I/O.
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I would be interested to hear what techniques people use for the other end of the multicore in monitor world. On a typical festival stage we might have 12 wedge mixes, a couple of drum sub mixes and side fills that need to swap between the A and B consoles and also any guest consoles that may come in.
We have been putting a 20way multi box at each desk to feed all the mixes into, and then another box at the amp racks to feed the amp rack inputs. It's then only one multipin to switch between desks. Additional boxes can be left patched with the guest consoles. We do feed each desks PFL mix to its own amplifier independent of the multi so that it can be used whether the desk is the one currently feeding the stage or not.
Neil
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Main Stage at Coachella uses a DME Rack, as the article says. There are a pair of house Profiles that run into the DME via AES3. A Venice production console goes in Analog. The DME offers several other AES3 and analog inputs for guest consoles. Outputs are AES3 and analog to various parts of the PA.
A Dante card sounds like a cool idea, at least for the house consoles. All guest consoles are going to have XLR outputs, almost all of those are going to be analog, even from a digital console and/or guest digital outboard.
The really slick part of the Hi-Tech DME rack is the pushbutton interface to turn guest and house console inputs on and off.
Thanks all of you guys for the insight and your very valuable opinion,
I think I found a one size fits all solution, the thing is I don't now if the production can afford it :'(
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/print/an_engine_driving_i_o_innovation
I've just imagined something like this based on Dante, with a input module at FOH prepared to received any type of signal (analogue/digital) and break out boxes to the system. Since its going to be d&B so there's no processor in the system by default.
The meyer galilego 616 is also an option and maybe the most probable one, since the vendor also owns a couple.
I'll keep giving it some thought and will keep you guys posted
Thanks again for sahring
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In MONS we use a proprietary 1U passive switch box. 2x 12 channels in on W1, big switch, 1x 12 channels out W1.
I would be interested to hear what techniques people use for the other end of the multicore in monitor world. On a typical festival stage we might have 12 wedge mixes, a couple of drum sub mixes and side fills that need to swap between the A and B consoles and also any guest consoles that may come in.
We have been putting a 20way multi box at each desk to feed all the mixes into, and then another box at the amp racks to feed the amp rack inputs. It's then only one multipin to switch between desks. Additional boxes can be left patched with the guest consoles. We do feed each desks PFL mix to its own amplifier independent of the multi so that it can be used whether the desk is the one currently feeding the stage or not.
Neil
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In MONS we use a proprietary 1U passive switch box. 2x 12 channels in on W1, big switch, 1x 12 channels out W1.
Thanks again everyone for the help!
The DME Rack still sounds like the best opction due to its capability of receiving 8 I/O aes 3, and 8 I/O analogue. And the possibility of having the fs/2 option is pretty appealing, as well as the switches for cutting of the signal.
My intention is to place whichever system I decide to use not at FOH but next to the processor/amps so I can run into the system digitally (aes3). I'm not very confident about a very long aes3 cable being run from FOH to the system input. That's why I came up with the idea of a Dante based system, where I could have the same Inputs as the DME rack, and then a break out with 2 aes 3 outputs for l,r,sub and front fills.
The EV Netmax 8000 sounds also like a sweet option the only question is about its capability to manage different sampling rates.
The Midas one and the s3L are a good workaround the only downside is the lack of aes3 inputs.
I'll sketch up a diagram and then post it up so everyone can give me their insights.
Thanks again!
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In MONS we use a proprietary 1U passive switch box. 2x 12 channels in on W1, big switch, 1x 12 channels out W1.
For monitors we generally only run 1 desk, a Profile or 5D, but if there are guest desks or multiples, we'll use the 3rd output from the splitter to a fanout.
For FOH we've used everything from a Venice to a DSP5D, BSS Soundweb, or just muting the system for a few seconds while we load, if that's the only option.
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And this is exactly where I want my imaginary new Midas product.
Basically an X32 rack mount with AES3 and AES50 and 16 analog mic/line inputs, and AES3 and analog outputs with a Dante IO option.
But made by Midas so I was allowed to use it in arenas :)
IPad and front panel control. Plug your MC, video, and playback directly in, along with two or three other consoles.
If I dream it they will make it...
Jason
X32 core with X-Dante card 1u rackmount (I used to have some anti snob rack blanking panels ;)
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I was really honestly thinking that the M32 announcement was going to be a rackmount Pro series from Midas. How cool would that be?
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I was really honestly thinking that the M32 announcement was going to be a rackmount Pro series from Midas. How cool would that be?
Exactly.
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I use a DR4800.
In Audio Architect, you can make customizeable buttons, which I use to bring AES or Analog inputs from -infinity to Unity. I feed the speaker processors AES from that, with the production console feeding the main speakers analog.
I do wish I had Cobranet option cards for the 4800s, because then I could add yet another console into the mix.
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I have thought about moving from a mix switch/dbx 4800 to a Soundweb London BLU-806. 4 analog ins for MC and CD (EQ, compression included for free), 4 AES in, then 8 inputs for two guest consoles.... All outputs to the PA on Dante, or if I need analog outputs, just blu-link to another London Box.
Jason, if you want cobranet just get a 800 instead of a 806. Still works in AudioArchitect, just not at 96k yet.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Has anyone used a DME with the Lake-card(s)?
I haven't, but I did read an article about the London Olympics ulilizing 9 DMEs in one install, with a Dante network.
Tried to search for the article, but no Luck this time around.
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In a way, it's already been done by AVID....The S3L is a 2u rack mount with 64x32 remote I/O over AVB.
You could operate an S3L headless (minus S3 surface) for sum/mix/matrix duty on festival FOH. Add up to 4 Stage 16 remote I/O boxes, plug in your KVM right to the E3, and optionally VNC into the 'desk' via LAN/WiFi for remote control. Very compact and versatile setup, only possibe downside is lack of multiple AES/EBU (2 I/O on E3 and 2 O on each stage box) for console I/O.
An AVID MixRack headless (minus surface) would also work. Build an adapter to fan out KVM from the MixRack's FOH link cable, or just use VNC to remote into it. The MixRack can also be configured to use the Stage 48 remote I/O.
Sure, there are a million ways to skin this but those options are all $15,000 for a matrix mixer. That's silly. Sometimes, absolutely, crucial. But most of the time, silly. And usually we are using our MixRack to run monitor on anyways.
The LS9-32 with some MY-Cards is also a great way to do this. Digital ins, Dante outs to amps. But I'm looking for something small and rack mounted, maybe a bit more BE-friendly and geez, there is no reason this product needs to be over $5000. Hopefully less. I guess that puts us back in DME world, right?
Jason
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I would be interested to hear what techniques people use for the other end of the multicore in monitor world. On a typical festival stage we might have 12 wedge mixes, a couple of drum sub mixes and side fills that need to swap between the A and B consoles and also any guest consoles that may come in.
Whirlwind ab-8 in manual mode would do the trick