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Title: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on January 23, 2010, 11:24:10 am
Ok, first off, I am posting this solely for something to just chew on for the time being.

I know that many people on here will rag on my current setup, but to be honest, it has served me very well, with zero problems, and has fit the bill. I am running a Crown XLS 802d bridged @ 4ohm (2100w) into 2 Yamaha SW118v's. At some point, I would like to add 2 more subs. I'd like to stick with the Yamahas, as they fit my budget, most likely ONE SW218v. My question is, if I DO upgrade amps for this sub setup (2 SW118, 1 SW218), should I go for the XTI 2000, or RMX 2450. Is there going to be a big difference from the XLS? I dont currently have any DSP, but have looked into the DRPA+. Any suggestions on where I go from here

I wouldnt mind some used MTL1's, but I dont know about mixing them with the 2 SW118's. I dont want to sell my SW118s, so thats that.

Thanks in advance. Discuss....
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on January 23, 2010, 05:32:13 pm
benjamin fisher wrote on Sat, 23 January 2010 10:24

My question is, if I DO upgrade amps for this sub setup (2 SW118, 1 SW218), should I go for the XTI 2000, or RMX 2450.

If my math is right, you will get very little improvement if you go from the XLS bridged into 2 subs, to the same amp, or an RMX or XTi of similar output, in stereo powering four subs.

The XTi and RMX amps have basically similar output to the XLS802D.  The XTi IMO is a crappy subwoofer amp.  It runs out of gas earlier than the RMX 2450 or Behringer EP2500/EP4000 especially when the AC voltage is sagging because a lot of PA is on one craptastic bar circuit.

Quote:

I dont currently have any DSP, but have looked into the DRPA+. Any suggestions on where I go from here

I have two DRPAs and a DCX2496.  I like the DCX2496 better because its I/O is more flexible.  It does not have a wizard like the DRPA so it isn't quite as easy to use.  The Behringer is predictably less expensive as well.  What is your current crossover?  Maybe you will benefit from an upgrade, maybe not.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Pete Sams on January 24, 2010, 12:36:31 am
If you're looking at ML1s just replace the yamaha's with the EVs. I'd first get the crowns out of bridge mode. You're working them way too hard that a bigger amp can do in stereo more efficiently. Using bridged amps can paint yourself into a corner, then you're left with expensive upgrades and a bunch of mid-sized amps you can't do anything with. If you must bridge then use the RMX1850HD that is actually designed to run 4ohms bridged/2ohm stereo w/o issues.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Adam Schaible on January 24, 2010, 12:44:08 am
Pete Sams wrote on Sat, 23 January 2010 23:36

If you're looking at ML1s just replace the yamaha's with the EVs. I'd first get the crowns out of bridge mode. You're working them way too hard that a bigger amp can do in stereo more efficiently. Using bridged amps can paint yourself into a corner, then you're left with expensive upgrades and a bunch of mid-sized amps you can't do anything with. If you must bridge then use the RMX1850HD that is actually designed to run 4ohms bridged/2ohm stereo w/o issues.


+1

Your amps would do better bridged.

Also, I know you said you were happy with your Yamaha's, but it might be worth considering an upgrade.

For example, the SRX 728 is quite a bit better than the SW118.  I'd guess a single 728 is comparable to 4 SW118's.  Pretty close I'd bet.

I know it's not what you wanted, but if you have the chance, listen a 728. It might be within your budget.

The price of a 728 - the sale price of your 118's is probably similar to another pair of 118's.

You'd also need less AC to power them effectively, they'd sound better, be easier to move, less pack space, and produce similar max SPL.  Not to mention, you're moving a step or two up.

Seems like a win to me, but
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on January 24, 2010, 09:24:05 am
Jeff - Ok, so are you saying the RMX is significantly better at powering subs than my current XLS?
I'm using a cheap crossover (DOD SR835). I didnt want to spend much money with the plans of going the DRPA route.


Pete - I understand what you are saying about running the XLS in bridged mode, however its only a 4ohm load. I dont see how this is hard work for this amp? A bigger amp in stereo mode just isnt in my budget, unless you have an acceptable suggestion.


Adam - My sub amp IS bridged. Misunderstanding? A big reason for me not wanting to sell the 2 SW118s is due to them being practically brand new. I'd like to continue using them for awhile. Maybe this means I should hold out on upgrading until I am ready to get rid of the SW118s, rather than adding more of them.


I appreciate everyone's input. I guess I've got some deciding before I purchase anything/more and determine what route I am going to go
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Adam Schaible on January 24, 2010, 11:16:04 am
Sorry, pain pills from knee surgery - not sure where I went wrong.

What I meant to say is any amp is better in stereo.

A 4 ohm bridged load is 2 ohms per channel - and while I know the amp will do it, you're kinda screwing yourself.

2100w at 4 ohms is 91 volts.  
500w at 8 ohms is  63 volts.

You can wire the cab/amp using an NL4 and run the amp in 8 ohm stereo per channel (discretely power each speaker) and lose less than 3db of max output and get a much better system overall drawing far less wall current with a much cooler amp.

Thats what I was saying about amps.

And on subs, the new peavey is similar to the 728 from reports I've heard.  I saw the cab in person and it looks pretty good.  Saw those go used for 600 in the market place.  Nothing wrong with the Yamaha's - do they still use the Eminence omega drivers?

Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Joe Brugnoni on January 24, 2010, 11:39:02 am
If your happy with the subs you have, I dont think there is any advantage to mixing it up with something different.  Why one extra sub?

Are you going to place it in the middle?  maybe you might try the two subs you have in the middle coupled up before you add one if that is what your thinking.


DRPA are great units but I would save your bucks and buy a used 260 or a new one. They can be bought for 600 new if you look.

The advantages you have with the 260 are  huge but If you have a pc you can attach it to that unit and use that for the set up and tweak of your system. I would hazard a guess that you might get all you need with this addition.

After you use the PEQ in the 260 and can see what your doing on the computer screen, I dont think you will look back.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on January 24, 2010, 01:15:15 pm
Adam Schaible wrote on Sat, 23 January 2010 23:44

I'd guess a single 728 is comparable to 4 SW118's.  Pretty close I'd bet.

Not like I have measurements to back it up or anything, but my opinion is based on using four SW118s in some of the rooms I am most familiar with, and now using one or two 728s in those same rooms.  I agree that one 728 is pretty close in output to four SW118s; but the 728 will be significantly less efficient at low power.  It is easier to carry a more powerful amp than twice the weight and volume of subs though.  He already owns the Yamahas though, and Benjamin can probably spend money in smarter ways than getting denser subs.

benjamin fisher wrote on Sun, 24 January 2010 08:24

Jeff - Ok, so are you saying the RMX is significantly better at powering subs than my current XLS?
I'm using a cheap crossover (DOD SR835). I didnt want to spend much money with the plans of going the DRPA route.

I don't know, I have never owned an XLSd and I do not know anyone locally who is using them at 2 ohms per channel.  I don't think more power will help you without more or different subs but I could be wrong.  The two SW118s you have are probably getting all the juice they can handle right now.

I have no idea about that crossover.

benjamin fisher wrote on Sun, 24 January 2010 08:24

Pete - I understand what you are saying about running the XLS in bridged mode, however its only a 4ohm load. I dont see how this is hard work for this amp? A bigger amp in stereo mode just isnt in my budget, unless you have an acceptable suggestion.

4 ohm bridge is basically the same as 2 ohm stereo.

I would be really hesitant to dump any more power into the two subs you have now.  If you buy more/better subs, you can either get a second subwoofer amp, or you can get a bigger one.  This is not an easy choice when capital is tight.

I have run two 728s off a Behringer EP-series each for quite a while and am very happy with that configuration for $2500 in subs and $550 in amps; but I hope to re-purpose or sell those two amps and buy an I-TECH 8000 within a few months.  I will be going from 70 pounds of medium-power amps to 20 pounds of higher-power amp in half the rack space for $2000 - $3000, and I will gain significant headroom.  If I re-purpose the Behringers I "lose" nothing.  If I sell them I might get $400 out of them, or basically a $75ea loss on amps that I have used for half a year.  This is the kind of thing you should scratch your head about before you decide when and what to buy.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on January 24, 2010, 01:23:29 pm
Oh, and honestly, unless your rig is out of gas a lot and that is what is preventing you from earning more money, I would strongly consider other upgrades first.

Do you have all the microphones you want for your gigs?  What about FX?  Compression?  EQ?  Swap that shitty MG32/14FX for a MixWiz, GL-series, LX7, or maybe an O1V?  If I was comfortable on an O1V, one of those plus an expansion card and A/D converter could replace every single piece of gear I have at FoH.  I just don't like the UI though.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Adam Schaible on January 24, 2010, 01:38:50 pm
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Sun, 24 January 2010 12:15

Adam Schaible wrote on Sat, 23 January 2010 23:44

I'd guess a single 728 is comparable to 4 SW118's.  Pretty close I'd bet.

Not like I have measurements to back it up or anything, but my opinion is based on using four SW118s in some of the rooms I am most familiar with, and now using one or two 728s in those same rooms.  I agree that one 728 is pretty close in output to four SW118s; but the 728 will be significantly less efficient at low power.  It is easier to carry a more powerful amp than twice the weight and volume of subs though.  He already owns the Yamahas though, and Benjamin can probably spend money in smarter ways than getting denser subs.




I'm not sure how true or relevant that really is.  As far as the true part, the SW118 says 96db sensitivity - probably in half space.  4 of them is only 102db sensitivity, and the 728 is 101 in full space.  Specs can be fudged, but I wouldn't be so sure 4 SW118's are more sensitive than 1 728.

Also, your loud speakers are probably the single most important aspect of the system.  Mic's, loud speakers, and console.  Bands around here really want thick and meaty subbage, so that's what they pay for.  Upgrading the console and mic's would be good but as you've even said yourself people hear with their eyes and they would probably think more of a nice JBL sub than a mix wiz.

Hard to say without knowing all you have, but .. it's always better to have fewer more efficient cabs than more less efficient.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on January 24, 2010, 09:08:58 pm
Adam - Ok, I never realized that 4ohm bridged was actually 2ohm stereo. I guess it makes sense though, just never thought about it that way. Could you expand a little more on the NL4 mod? I am not sure what that is, what it does, or how to do it. Could be something that helps me in the long run if I keep the SW118s. Oh, and yes, I believe they still have the Eminence Omegas


Joe - Yeah, the plan with adding the SW218 was to put it in the center while having the SW118s on the sides. What are the advantages of the twice as much DR260 over the DRPA+? Either way, do you think this would make a significant difference in my system while only having the 2 SW118s AND after an addition? Yes, I do have a laptop.


Jeff - You said I could spend my money in better ways, than upgrading subs. By what means? DRPA or DR260? New tops (YES!)? I dont want to feed anymore power to my SW118s, but doubling the low end in my system would be nice for bigger (to me) gigs. If I do end up adding an SW218, I would just go with either another XLS802d or RMX 2450. I know this isny the perfect way of doing things, but with my budget, its one of very few options I have, I'm sure you would agree.
As for mics, I have enough to get me by. Only 3 SM58's, a B58, a SM57, E602 (for now. Not much, but always get by with it. FX I just use the reverb thats on my board. I have an old Digitech Quad Studio but dont have a power cable for it. Compression I dont use currently, but I own a dbx 266xl and 2 OLD Fostex 3070's. I'm leaning towards a Mixwiz or SL upgrade, but not until I get my FOH speakers where they need to be.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Adam Schaible on January 24, 2010, 09:21:25 pm
benjamin fisher wrote on Sun, 24 January 2010 20:08

Adam - Ok, I never realized that 4ohm bridged was actually 2ohm stereo. I guess it makes sense though, just never thought about it that way. Could you expand a little more on the NL4 mod? I am not sure what that is, what it does, or how to do it. Could be something that helps me in the long run if I keep the SW118s. Oh, and yes, I believe they still have the Eminence Omegas


Well if you get a SW218, I'd just run your amp in stereo.

If you stay with 2 SW118's (sorry I keep thinking you were using a SW218) then just run your amp in stereo and put 1 per side.  That would be an 8 ohm load per side and that will help your amp out a lot will very little/no sacrifice.

Sorry about that.  You're all good.

Which tops are you using?
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Jerome Casinger on January 24, 2010, 09:45:51 pm
Adam Schaible wrote on Sun, 24 January 2010 20:21

benjamin fisher wrote on Sun, 24 January 2010 20:08

Adam - Ok, I never realized that 4ohm bridged was actually 2ohm stereo. I guess it makes sense though, just never thought about it that way. Could you expand a little more on the NL4 mod? I am not sure what that is, what it does, or how to do it. Could be something that helps me in the long run if I keep the SW118s. Oh, and yes, I believe they still have the Eminence Omegas


Well if you get a SW218, I'd just run your amp in stereo.

If you stay with 2 SW118's (sorry I keep thinking you were using a SW218) then just run your amp in stereo and put 1 per side.  That would be an 8 ohm load per side and that will help your amp out a lot will very little/no sacrifice.

Sorry about that.  You're all good.

Which tops are you using?



Ben, this is the same thing I am doing for the same reasons.  I am using an nl4, and I am making a simple breakout box from parts on parts express website to split the signal and give two seperate outputs for my subs.  Excellent solution, and the box I am making costs probably around $20 or so in parts.  Amps run cooler therefore are happier  Cool
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Adam Schaible on January 24, 2010, 09:54:33 pm
If you do this you don't really need a break out box, just re-wire the speakons inside the cab.  Since you're using SW118's it's a moot point.  If you ever wanted to use a SW218 with your amp get on here and we'll help you with it.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Jerome Casinger on January 24, 2010, 10:21:49 pm
Adam Schaible wrote on Sun, 24 January 2010 20:54

If you do this you don't really need a break out box, just re-wire the speakons inside the cab.  Since you're using SW118's it's a moot point.  If you ever wanted to use a SW218 with your amp get on here and we'll help you with it.


Correct, there are benefits either way, I am making a breakout box because I split my system frequently, and dont like the idea of a cable going into one sub, then the other half of the amp being carried over another "x" number of feet to the other sub.  Power loss, etc etc on one side.  Might not be an issue for you.  Also if you re wire the inside of the cabs so only one input would actually be working per sub, if you do loose one channel of an amp, or a wire comes loose on the one side, it may impact how fast you can re distribute power to get you through a gig if you needed to since your subs could not be paralled.  

Weigh out pros and cons and realize you can make a simple solution very inexpensively either way you go, either making a box or re wiring the inputs so one input is actually active and the other passes the 2nd signal through to the next subs.  Like someone mentioned, tons of people can help you on here with wiring if you need it, its pretty simple.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Rob Spence on January 25, 2010, 12:58:15 am
Joe Brugnoni wrote on Sun, 24 January 2010 11:39


DRPA are great units but I would save your bucks and buy a used 260 or a new one. They can be bought for 600 new if you look.

The advantages you have with the 260 are  huge but If you have a pc you can attach it to that unit and use that for the set up and tweak of your system. I would hazard a guess that you might get all you need with this addition.

After you use the PEQ in the 260 and can see what your doing on the computer screen, I dont think you will look back.


Skip the DRPA. You will be selling it to upgrade in short order since it so limited in what you can do.
The DR260 is good as are units from other vendors, some for less $$.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on January 25, 2010, 01:38:33 am
Adam Schaible wrote on Sun, 24 January 2010 20:54

just re-wire the speakons inside the cab.  Since you're using SW118's it's a moot point.  If you ever wanted to use a SW218 with your amp get on here and we'll help you with it.

Are you suggesting discrete-drive for an SW218?  They are like 300w RMS and nominal 8 ohms per driver, so that would be silly.

Anyway, MAP on a CW218V and a Behringer amp is around $1100; add a bit for RMX or XLSd.  Not a bad price for 6dB more bass.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on January 25, 2010, 05:50:01 am
Adam - The reason I was running my XLS 802 in bridged is because it puts out 2100W @ 4ohm. If I run it in stereo, 8ohm per side, I'm only feeding each SW118 500w. Seems really under powered to me, especially in comparison to them getting 1050w right now in bridged mode...care to clear up my confusion? Right now, I cringe to say I am using Yamaha BR15 tops. Not the best, but sound decent and were in my price range when I first put this rig together ( I had the intention of doing SIMPLE solo acoustic gigs and we see where I went from there Rolling Eyes!)

Oh, and Adam, see my reply to Jerome just below!


Jerome - I could use some more information and details on the NL4 topic. I'm very unclear on this whole concept. Excuse my newb-ism....I am by far lacking wiring knowledge as well, so help with that would be great. If this little mod will help me, I am all for learning how to do it and helping me accomplish what I need!


Rob - Aside from Behringer, what are other units you would suggest if not going with the DR260? What are the advantages over the DRPA?


Jeff - You lost me on the first part haha. Glad you agree its not a bad price for 6db more bass. Hope that wasnt sarcasm, as I think 6db will be noticeable yes?

Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Adam Schaible on January 25, 2010, 08:26:24 am
benjamin fisher wrote on Mon, 25 January 2010 04:50

Adam - The reason I was running my XLS 802 in bridged is because it puts out 2100W @ 4ohm. If I run it in stereo, 8ohm per side, I'm only feeding each SW118 500w. Seems really under powered to me, especially in comparison to them getting 1050w right now in bridged mode...care to clear up my confusion? Right now, I cringe to say I am using Yamaha BR15 tops. Not the best, but sound decent and were in my price range when I first put this rig together ( I had the intention of doing SIMPLE solo acoustic gigs and we see where I went from there Rolling Eyes!)


Well the whole concept of under-powering is a scam. The difference between 500w and 1050w is a conceptual 3db, but will be more like 1.5 db due to power compression and the fact that your speakers are kind of tapped out at 500w.  I know Yamaha says 1200w peak, which is true - but you're not making much more noise with 1200w than 500w.

Just don't let the amp clip consistently and you'll be fine.  Plus, with running an 8 ohm load your amp will sound MUCH better and last much longer.

As far as NL4 ... the mod is designed so you can run each speaker in a dual speaker cabinet (SW218 or something) discretely, meaning 1 speaker per channel, rather than 1 cap per channel.

I'm not sure there's much to be gained here due to your speaker cab configuration.  I'd run 2 sw118's on one side of your amp and the sw218 on the other.  You'd go down a theoretical 3db in max output due to power, but up 6db due to doubling cabs/power (4 ohm load is ok).  I'd go that route and not buy another amp, and if I did buy another amp I'd sell the 802d and get something that's like 1500-2000w @ 4 ohms.

I do think you're better off with a bit more than 500w per sub but I wouldn't say it's that big of a deal.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Adam Schaible on January 25, 2010, 08:29:45 am
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Mon, 25 January 2010 00:38

Adam Schaible wrote on Sun, 24 January 2010 20:54

just re-wire the speakons inside the cab.  Since you're using SW118's it's a moot point.  If you ever wanted to use a SW218 with your amp get on here and we'll help you with it.

Are you suggesting discrete-drive for an SW218?  They are like 300w RMS and nominal 8 ohms per driver, so that would be silly.

Anyway, MAP on a CW218V and a Behringer amp is around $1100; add a bit for RMX or XLSd.  Not a bad price for 6dB more bass.


At first I thought he had a SW2118 instead of 2 SW118's - and in that scenario, I would probably discrete drive using the 802.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on January 25, 2010, 08:51:00 am
Adam, Ok...So forget the NL4 mod atleast for the SW118s.

I'll have to try putting each SW118 on each channel of the 802. Although the addition of another cable is a downfall, I guess its not a huge deal.

Once I pickup a SW218, I'll probably upgrade to an XLS 5000 (1800w 4ohm stereo), my 802 would only feed 800w 4ohm stereo.

Thanks for the help!

**EDIT** I just read a review on the XLS 5000 stating that you are required to run it on a NEMA-20 plug and the club has to be wired for 20 amps. This could be a possible problem....I dont know exactly what that means, but, I work at some clubs that are a little iffy on their electrical systems....Would I be better off getting another 802 and doing the NL4 mod on the SW218?
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on January 26, 2010, 04:27:16 pm
The outlets you see in commercial buildings will generally look like this, which are 20A outlets called NEMA 5-20R, and they will mate with a 5-20P or a 5-15P that you are already familiar with.  So the input cord issue on the XLS5000 is not really a big deal.
index.php/fa/27649/0/

I wouldn't buy a different type of subwoofer until you are ready to sell your SW118s and change to another model.  Mixing them can cause all sorts of problems as the phase response of one type of sub may differ significantly from that of a different sub, causing cancellation.
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on January 27, 2010, 05:07:26 pm
Very well, Thanks
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: Callan Carnahan on January 30, 2010, 01:44:42 pm
Ben, if you're down in Arizona (your location of two places kind of threw me off), then you really ought to get in touch with Art Welter. He'll be able to help you with (literally) ANY issues you may have with upgrading/setting up your system. If you're in Columbus, consider getting in touch with someone out in Chicago or up in Cleveland - there's a lot of guys from around that area on here that'd also be willing to talk to you about things via phone or whatever.

Best of luck to you!
Title: Re: Thinkin About New Subs And Amps
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on January 30, 2010, 01:52:17 pm
Callan Carnahan wrote on Sat, 30 January 2010 12:44

Ben, if you're down in Arizona (your location of two places kind of threw me off), then you really ought to get in touch with Art Welter. He'll be able to help you with (literally) ANY issues you may have with upgrading/setting up your system. If you're in Columbus, consider getting in touch with someone out in Chicago or up in Cleveland - there's a lot of guys from around that area on here that'd also be willing to talk to you about things via phone or whatever.

Best of luck to you!

Thanks, I will keep that in mind. I am in Columbus currently, however I am moving to Phoenix in June