Post by: Jeff Wheeler on December 27, 2009, 01:52:22 PM
I do not want lights to become a distraction from my main function of riding the FX fader and turning the monitor mixes up every few minutes. I am sure it will get me more money and more bookings, though. As I get more input from customers, it seems I could deploy my B-rig (Kustom over Behringer PA) with cool lights and probably get paid more than with my "A-rig" and no lights.
I am hoping to get some good advice about light equipment in the Lighting area of the forum, but I would love to know what more experienced people on my level are doing.
Thanks!
Post by: Milt Hathaway on December 27, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
A little 4 can/tree LED rig, with a dead simple console (faders and bump buttons are all that is needed) will be fine. Even better, you can let the whatever band hanger-on is available run it so you don't have to think about it.
Post by: Rick Powell on December 27, 2009, 02:16:42 PM
Your options, if you are going to provide added lights, are: to get a lighting console that will change scenes to the beat of the music (kind of hokey, but it can be semi-effective); do static lighting scenes per song or per set (kind of boring, but at least the stage is lit up); or hire a second person as your sound or light tech so that full operating attention can be given to each.
I dunno how much your market will bear to "do it right" at your level. If you are charging $100 extra for lights, and paying your assistant $50-75 per night to assist, it will take lots of gigs to amortize your lighting investment, if ever, counting maintenance as well as initial investment. If you can get $50 extra per night from throwing up a few "set and forget" incandescent Par 56's (which can be had dirt cheap thse days) you can probably be money ahead assuming you have steady work.
That being said, some will pay a good dollar to have an excellent, well equipped and coordinated light show. There is probably a better return on investment in concert lighting vs. concert sound, from the discussions I have had with others who do both. But it takes a lot more than a bar-band level of investment and commitment to get into that market.
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on December 27, 2009, 02:44:55 PM
Milt's suggestion is not bad if the band groupie/girlfriend does an okay job with the light console, at least better than I could do with pre-programmed chases and a foot-switch; but if they make the band look unprofessional, they also make me look unprofessional. So that is probably something I should stay away from or at least approach carefully.
If they really want to pay for someone to operate the lights, I can probably get that going; but as you said I would have to charge at least $100 to have an extra person for that. That is an unlikely luxury for my customers.
Post by: Andy Peters on December 27, 2009, 02:57:09 PM
| Jeff Wheeler wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 11:52 |
I would like to know what kind of light rigs, if any, other guys on my level are supplying for bar-band sound jobs. For reference, my "A-rig" is MRX525 over SRX728S per side, 4 monitor mixes from FoH, and I still have a little Behringer left in the FoH rack, comp/gates I can't bring myself to replace with more costly units. I do not want lights to become a distraction from my main function of riding the FX fader and turning the monitor mixes up every few minutes. I am sure it will get me more money and more bookings, though. As I get more input from customers, it seems I could deploy my B-rig (Kustom over Behringer PA) with cool lights and probably get paid more than with my "A-rig" and no lights. I am hoping to get some good advice about light equipment in the Lighting area of the forum, but I would love to know what more experienced people on my level are doing. Thanks! |
I agree with Milt -- nobody gives a flying fuck, and it's a supreme waste of money to install a bunch of intelligent lighting and such but then provide two monitor mixes and a crappy, underpowered mains system, not enough mics, stands, cables, etc and a Mackie 24*4 with no outboard.
Really.
For an install eight instruments on a downstage truss, eight on an upstage truss, and the simplest possible dimmer controller is all you need. If it's not an install, two 4-instrument trees, one on each side of the stage, is all you need.
-a
Post by: Tom Reid on December 27, 2009, 03:05:44 PM
| Andy Peters wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 13:57 | ||
I agree with Milt -- nobody gives a flying fuck, and it's a supreme waste of money to install a bunch of intelligent lighting and such but then provide two monitor mixes and a crappy, underpowered mains system, not enough mics, stands, cables, etc and a Mackie 24*4 with no outboard. Really. For an install eight instruments on a downstage truss, eight on an upstage truss, and the simplest possible dimmer controller is all you need. If it's not an install, two 4-instrument trees, one on each side of the stage, is all you need. -a |
...and a huge Kell light.
Post by: Milt Hathaway on December 27, 2009, 03:13:35 PM
| Jeff Wheeler wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 13:44 |
Milt's suggestion is not bad if the band groupie/girlfriend does an okay job with the light console, at least better than I could do with pre-programmed chases and a foot-switch; but if they make the band look unprofessional, they also make me look unprofessional. So that is probably something I should stay away from or at least approach carefully. |
Unless you know a band's songs/arrangements intimately, all you can really do is randomly flash the lights. Most of the time you'll hit the beat, some of the time you'll end the song when the band does. That's why a friend of the band can almost always do as good a job as you can at the lighting. They will have at least heard the band's versions of the songs before.
I ran lights and sound for 3 years for a local club band. Given the length of time I was with the band, I did get good at hitting the lighting on cue. However, any one-off show with an unknown band usually the best I could do was keep the band lit, especially if I was running sound simultaneously. Automatic stuff (audio activated, chases, etc.) never really looked that good to me, as they rapidly begin to look like disco lighting (I was doing most of this work back in the early 80's, so anything reminiscent of disco was avoided.)
(I always used bypass footswitches on reverbs and volume pedals on echo aux sends so that my hands could stay free for the lighting console. This was back in the analog days, though. May not work with your rig.)
One trick that always worked well in club lighting design was giving priority to the upstage lighting. Giving the audience some interesting lighting to watch can be much more entertaining than just washing the band, plus from the band's point of view having the lighting wash across the crowd is much more fun than lights in their eyes all night.
Post by: Vinny D'Agostino on December 27, 2009, 05:12:38 PM
Considering most local venues have hardly enough available AC power to drive a PA system you really should look at some nice simple LED lights. They use very little AC and they don't generate heat like the good ole PAR 64's do.
I ended up going with (2) Chauvet lighting color pallets: http://www.chauvetlighting.com/colorpalette.html
They are a little pricey (but can be found much cheaper on-line) but they do a great job. They will wash an entire stage of approx. 40' x 20' with ease.
Two of those lights with (2) 25' power cables pack up nicely in this EWI case: http://www.audiopile.net/products/Cases/M_series_mic_cases/M 024-MT/M024-MT_Case_cutsheet.shtml
Set the lights to change with the music and there is your bar gig light show!
They have worked great for me for the past year of use, very satisfied with the money that I spent.
Post by: Stuart Pendleton on December 27, 2009, 06:10:50 PM
Six Global Truss ST90 crank stands
20' of 12" Global Truss F34 square truss front
15' of 12" Global Truss F34 square truss rear
Front truss:
10 x P64 LEDs
Rear truss:
4 x P36 LEDs
2 x P56 LEDs
2 x LED Mega Bars
4 Martin MX-4 Scanners
2 Lasers (low power stuff)
Radiance Hazer
Runs from either:
Bluelite X1 mini
Elation Magic 260
Martin Freekie
Post by: Geoff Doane on December 27, 2009, 06:15:01 PM
| Vinny D'Agostino wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 18:12 |
I basicaly just do the typical weekend warrior type sound gig and I have always hated lights but.......you need to supply something |
Exactly. You can't have the band playing in the dark, and that factor might be the difference between getting the gig or not, regardless of what you can supply on the audio end.
Back in the '90s, I usually provided a 24K PAR 64 rig with lighting guy and sometimes even a followspot. Those days are gone, but since I still needed something, I bought 6 ETC Source 4 PARs, mounted them 3 to a bar, and stuck them on top of the Manfrotto crank up stands I already had. Each tree runs off one 15 or 20A circuit. I plug them in before the set starts, and unplug them when the band stops playing. It keeps them out of the dark, doesn't distract me, and satisfies the customers.
If I was doing it again, I'd probably look at LED lighting because of the power draw. I chose the Source 4s because they're a quality fixture, have a choice of lenses, and are easy to deal with, which is a major consideration when you're doing it all yourself. There may be cheaper copies, but I don't need any more excuses to hate lights.
GTD
Post by: Brian Adams on December 27, 2009, 06:28:36 PM
Sure, it would be nice to have more, obviously there are a lot of options. My view is that I rarely get paid enough to provide the sound equipment, so any lights at all are more than I'm getting paid for.
I've been considering buying some LED PARs, but at the prices that the good ones are going for, I'll wait a few more years.
A friend of mine, who provides a lot more lights than I do for a lot less money, uses the direct out of the kick drum channel to trigger his light board. It actually works pretty good.
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 27, 2009, 06:31:58 PM
But I borrowed a couple Par38's a while back and they were the short and small kind, maybe a total of max 8" in length, and were very robust. Anyone know where I can find something like this?
I am in the same boat as Jeff and getting 2 trees with 4 of these would be perfect for this situation because of being small and robust and putting out a wide beam.
Thanks for the help,
Phil
Post by: Dave Rickard on December 27, 2009, 06:59:37 PM
If the band has more, we use more.
If you work with cowboy hats, you'll need something on the floor pointing up...
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on December 27, 2009, 07:45:11 PM
6 Irradiant Par 56 .5w bulbs and short cans
4 Chauvet Vue1.1s
1 Longman LED420B light bar
I bring in 5 trees; I have 2 tall trees that go next to the Mains/Subs with 3 LED cans on stand. The next two stands have 2 Vue 1.1s on it on each back corner of the stage, pointed in the crowd. I also have a stand with the Light Bar at FOH that fills in the rest of the missing spots that the Par Cans can't cover and it lights up the stage really nice.
With LED's covering the band, my #1 recommendation is to buy a Hazer. With out a hazer the lights just didn't look right.
Everyone loves the lights and the effects.
Post by: Rick Powell on December 27, 2009, 08:13:01 PM
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on December 27, 2009, 08:24:19 PM
Post by: George Aldredge on December 27, 2009, 09:00:02 PM
| Phil Lewandowski wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 17:31 |
But I borrowed a couple Par38's a while back and they were the short and small kind, maybe a total of max 8" in length, and were very robust. Anyone know where I can find something like this? |
Phil,
I have several of these:
http://www.bulbamerica.com/Short-PAR38-Black-56-prod.htm?cat egory_id=21
Cheap and work great. Have not broken anything on them in two years
George
edit: I just measured one and it is 9" from the front of the gel frame to the rear and the gel frame is 6.5" square.
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 27, 2009, 10:13:08 PM
| George Aldredge wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 21:00 | ||
Phil, I have several of these: http://www.bulbamerica.com/Short-PAR38-Black-56-prod.htm?cat egory_id=21 Cheap and work great. Have not broken anything on them in two years George edit: I just measured one and it is 9" from the front of the gel frame to the rear and the gel frame is 6.5" square. |
Thanks George, I actually bought the same thing a couple months back. And I don't have them in front of me but they seem to be actually longer than the picture appears to be on their website. And the website picture looks closer to what I used from my friend.
I will have to measure mine again and see if they match yours just to make sure I did in fact order the "short" ones from them.
Thanks again,
Phil
Post by: James Feenstra on December 28, 2009, 01:40:48 AM
| Milt Hathaway wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 15:13 |
Unless you know a band's songs/arrangements intimately, all you can really do is randomly flash the lights. |
i beg to differ
i frequently busk a medium sized club rig for bands i've never heard of and could care less about
anyways...
for your application (small bar bands) 6 upstage LED cans and 2-4 downstage LED cans with some simple controller (see: leprechaun, elation) would be more than enough to give shows 'something extra' for a couple thousand bucks worth of investment...and could easily pay for itself in a few bookings
Post by: Tim A Perry on December 28, 2009, 02:15:38 AM
8 par 38s on I truss with crank stands and cheap dim pac.
Par 56's on T-bar
Larger shows get Par 64's as needed.
Post by: Milt Hathaway on December 28, 2009, 06:24:02 AM
| James Feenstra wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 00:40 | ||
i beg to differ i frequently busk a medium sized club rig for bands i've never heard of and could care less about |
I'll bet you have just a bit more experience at it than the OP has.
Post by: Patrick Campbell on December 28, 2009, 08:13:57 AM
I will say it again - I HATE LIGHTS - but gotta have em to get the work.
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on December 28, 2009, 09:30:23 AM
| Patrick Campbell wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 07:13 |
I will say it again - I HATE LIGHTS - but gotta have em to get the work. |
Why do people hate lights? Is it bulb maintenance? Electrical demand? People bitching about a blinding fixture pointing in their direction?
To me, it seems like just another tool to get and keep business.
I have about $15k in my rig. I figure it will be busier and probably make 1/3rd more money per night for a $2k investment in lights and 5 minutes extra on load-in/load-out, with minimal or no increase in maintenance cost. It seems stupid not to do it.
I want to upgrade a few things on my "A-rig," but I do not think these upgrades will actually earn me any more money. The only audio things I really want before I start spending on my B-rig again are:
* Soundcraft LX7ii -> ?? GB8 or maybe entry-level digital
* Behringer MDX2600/4600 dynamics -> dbx 1066/1064
* 2 Behringer EP4000s on subs -> 1 PL380 or I-TECH 8k
Those things will not make me more money. Much as I would like my amp rack to shed 50 pounds, or to have 2 more auxes, I would rather have 2 rigs for bands first and make another $1k - $2k a month depending on how solidly booked it can get.
I would buy backline if I thought it was a good investment, but in order to have equal or better amps+cabs+drums than my customers, I would need to spend $8k AND I would need to learn how to maintain drums. Some (maybe all) of my customers would be thrilled if they could just walk in and play without bringing anything except their guitars and cymbals, and they would pay at least $100 a night for it; but I think that investment would be a lot more risky than lights and PA and it would double my load-in time.
Post by: Vinny D'Agostino on December 28, 2009, 10:46:20 AM
| Jeff Wheeler wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 09:30 | ||
Why do people hate lights? Is it bulb maintenance? Electrical demand? People bitching about a blinding fixture pointing in their direction? . |
All of the above and more!
For the average bar band setup a couple of lights to wash the stage is all that is needed.
Most bar type venues don't have enough available AC power to support any type of extravagant light show, even something basic.
This is why any investments in lighting should be LED only!
The hassle of setting up lights alone is enough not to be bothered in my opinion.
Which is why I said keep it simple, the majority of the audience will not care.
Most bar bands won't pay any extra for lights as they are hardly making any money themselves once they pay you for providing a PA and sound.
Post by: James Feenstra on December 28, 2009, 10:58:19 AM
| Milt Hathaway wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 06:24 | ||||
I'll bet you have just a bit more experience at it than the OP has. |
maybe
but then again, there's guys that have been doing lights for 30+ years (on major arena tours at that) that still don't know what they're doing and have terrible timing
experience has nothing to do with your ability, for the most part, when it comes to feeling the music and hitting the beats. if you're good with a delay unit, lighting shouldn't be overly difficult to at least time properly.
anyways, most i find most people hate lights because of the time it takes to setup and program a rig, mind you, there's a LOT more money in lighting/visual aspects of a show than there is audio...
most people (at least in terms of promoters and corporate clients) are willing to spend a considerably larger portion of their budget on making sure the show looks good...people may buy tickets to go hear a band play, but the difference between a good show and a great show is how it looks
investing in a small lighting rig is never a bad idea (especially now that LEDs are so versatile and inexpensive), as i said earlier, it'll give you that extra edge when it comes to bookings
the thing about lighting vs audio is that everyone thinks they're a sound guy, most people think the LD is the sound guy (i get told it sounds great all the time...i love the sound of moving lights too! whhhhiiirrr, whhhhiiirrr, click, click, click), and very few people even understand the concept of lighting...anything more than one color for the whole show looks 'amazing'
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on December 28, 2009, 11:34:54 AM
| Vinny D'Agostino wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 09:46 |
Most bar type venues don't have enough available AC power to support any type of extravagant light show, even something basic. This is why any investments in lighting should be LED only! The hassle of setting up lights alone is enough not to be bothered in my opinion. |
This is why I waited until my budget allows for an all-LED purchase. I did not want to replace bulbs or worry about power.
I *think* the setup will be quick if I leave the fixtures on T-bars and make a trunk to keep them safe that way. If so, I should be able to get the lights up and connected in about 5 minutes, and back down just as easily at the end of the night.
| Quote: |
Most bar bands won't pay any extra for lights as they are hardly making any money themselves once they pay you for providing a PA and sound. |
I don't want "most bar bands" to be my customers, though. I want the most popular groups in my town. They make the most money in part because they spend the most on production. If I want their business I need to be the best small-time production outfit they can afford. I don't want to lose a job to some hack with a garage/practice PA, and that is less likely if I provide other services those guys can't or won't.
Post by: Dick Rees on December 28, 2009, 11:43:22 AM
Post by: Patrick Campbell on December 28, 2009, 11:50:53 AM
| Dick Rees wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 10:43 |
I tried using matches, but they're hard to light when they keep moving around and even then they tend not to stay lit for very long before going out. |
AND they really hurt they burn down close to your fingers !!! OUCH !!!
Post by: Adam Whetham on December 28, 2009, 11:56:38 AM
| Vinny D'Agostino wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 09:46 |
All of the above and more! For the average bar band setup a couple of lights to wash the stage is all that is needed. Most bar type venues don't have enough available AC power to support any type of extravagant light show, even something basic. This is why any investments in lighting should be LED only! The hassle of setting up lights alone is enough not to be bothered in my opinion. Which is why I said keep it simple, the majority of the audience will not care. Most bar bands won't pay any extra for lights as they are hardly making any money themselves once they pay you for providing a PA and sound. |
How are These a hassle?
Get 2 of them. make 2 5 pin adaptors. Hijack a channel on your snake (yes its not 120ohm cable but it will work most of the time) and call it done for the small gigs. It comes with a foot switch and you can just smash light colors whenever it feels like it should be changed.
Post by: Vinny D'Agostino on December 28, 2009, 12:23:14 PM
| Adam Whetham wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 11:56 | ||
How are These a hassle? Get 2 of them. make 2 5 pin adaptors. Hijack a channel on your snake (yes its not 120ohm cable but it will work most of the time) and call it done for the small gigs. It comes with a foot switch and you can just smash light colors whenever it feels like it should be changed. |
If you would have actually read my previous posting in this topic you would see that I use a very basic and easy to setup lighting rig.
It still is a pain in the *ss in most bar gigs.
The area were bands get to setup is usually crowded to begin with and if you have to put light trees on the dance floor you run the risk off every drunk in the place tripping over them and knocking them over.
Post by: Andy Peters on December 28, 2009, 12:35:25 PM
| James Feenstra wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 08:58 |
but then again, there's guys that have been doing lights for 30+ years (on major arena tours at that) that still don't know what they're doing and have terrible timing |
Remember that light travels faster than sound. If you are sitting in the nosebleeds, you'll see the lighting effects change before you hear the beat.
| Quote: |
most people (at least in terms of promoters and corporate clients) are willing to spend a considerably larger portion of their budget on making sure the show looks good...people may buy tickets to go hear a band play, but the difference between a good show and a great show is how it looks |
And right here is a really good reason why a lot of shows and a lot of venues suck. Because they spent the money for the wrong stuff.
"Listen, you shnook -- it's not how you SOUND, it's how you LOOK."
| Quote: |
and very few people even understand the concept of lighting...anything more than one color for the whole show looks 'amazing' |
I understand the concept of lighting as it pertains to photography, but I admit that I really don't care about the details of lighting a stage.
Pretty much every band that has been through my venues has been perfectly happy with an upstage truss and a downstage truss with some cans. Those that wanted anything more extensive have brought it. And face it -- on the small club circuit, a van full of lighting gear costs $$$ to transport, and the truth is: Most bands really don't give a fuck. Really.
If a promoter hires you because you have pretty lights, please, take his money, because he's a fool.
-a
Post by: Vinny D'Agostino on December 28, 2009, 12:39:58 PM
| Andy Peters wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 12:35 |
And face it -- on the small club circuit, a van full of lighting gear costs $$$ to transport, and the truth is: Most bands really don't give a fuck. Really. |
Exactly!!!!
Post by: James Feenstra on December 28, 2009, 12:51:33 PM
| Andy Peters wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 12:35 | ||
Remember that light travels faster than sound. If you are sitting in the nosebleeds, you'll see the lighting effects change before you hear the beat. |
| Quote: | ||
And right here is a really good reason why a lot of shows and a lot of venues suck. Because they spent the money for the wrong stuff. "Listen, you shnook -- it's not how you SOUND, it's how you LOOK." |
although they'll SEE the difference between 8 moving lights and 12, and can put up better pictures on their website/flyers/etc generating more business and making them more money in the long run
| Quote: | ||
Pretty much every band that has been through my venues has been perfectly happy with an upstage truss and a downstage truss with some cans. Those that wanted anything more extensive have brought it. And face it -- on the small club circuit, a van full of lighting gear costs $$$ to transport, and the truth is: Most bands really don't give a fuck. Really. If a promoter hires you because you have pretty lights, please, take his money, because he's a fool. |
we run in different circles.
a small show for me is a crowd of 500-1000, generally not van tours...and when they get to that level a large number of bands (except the emo/screamo crap that seems to be the hip hop rejects wanting to be metal bands) notice the difference between a good and a crappy light show
anyways, for a small bar band, no one gives a fuck about lighting...enough so you can see the band is enough...for a larger show (you know, where a band might actually bring an LD if they have some money), lights matter...if they didn't why would any band bring LDs/lighting rigs/video/etc anywhere?
also, in regards to promoters, i've gotten quite a bit of work from them based on my lighting ability because i make their shows look good
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on December 28, 2009, 12:57:25 PM
| Andy Peters wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 11:35 |
And face it -- on the small club circuit, a van full of lighting gear costs $$$ to transport, and the truth is: Most bands really don't give a fuck. Really. If a promoter hires you because you have pretty lights, please, take his money, because he's a fool. |
I'm not doing a van tour, though; I am supplying production to local bands and the occasional out-of-town group with no tech rider and no expectations other than to be made to sound (and look) as good as any other act that is performing at same venues.
I'm not buying movers or video screens. I'm pretty sure $2000 is not enough to buy any moving fixtures anyway. I'm just buying some LED cans and a controller.
Post by: Adam Whetham on December 28, 2009, 01:35:45 PM
| Jeff Wheeler wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 11:57 |
I'm not doing a van tour, though; I am supplying production to local bands and the occasional out-of-town group with no tech rider and no expectations other than to be made to sound (and look) as good as any other act that is performing at same venues. I'm not buying movers or video screens. I'm pretty sure $2000 is not enough to buy any moving fixtures anyway. I'm just buying some LED cans and a controller. |
I agree with the LED's, but most bands up here want to jump on the wagon of LED's because of the power issues and the light/color output
I mostly do sound/lighting for one local band. and then some house gigs.
Even in the 100-200 person venues, we get compliments all the time on our light show, even though its only 8 LED's in the back and some 4 cell lights on the front per side (soon to be LED's also). It makes a big difference on getting booked back or people remembering us. When we have lights with deep blues for slow songs, and shit flashing like crazy during some fast song chorus parts, people notice. It gets us a larger following, and puts on a better show. And if your band can put more butts at the bar, you are now getting more money if you have any business sense.
Does the band not "dress up" for playing? Most of the bands seem to have to do this, as they realize looks sell also. You can sound amazing, but if you just stand there on stage, you really aren't much of a show and don't really get many people moving. If you then bring blinking lights and are dancing around like the crowd should be, you have a better chance of people calling other friends to get their asses out and party with you.
Get some simple LED bars like the 4Bars. I guess wen't haven't had an issue with people knocking stuff over as we block ourselves in pretty good. If you're worried about it get some of the stand sandbags to be safe.
Crowd people do notice a good light show. I know ours do.
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on December 28, 2009, 02:19:53 PM
| Adam Whetham wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 12:35 |
Does the band not "dress up" for playing? Most of the bands seem to have to do this, as they realize looks sell also. |
Some do, some don't. I don't think I am getting into the wardrobe and make-up business anytime soon, though.
Post by: James Feenstra on December 28, 2009, 04:43:46 PM
| Jeff Wheeler wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 12:57 |
I'm not buying movers or video screens. I'm pretty sure $2000 is not enough to buy any moving fixtures anyway. I'm just buying some LED cans and a controller. |
you might get 2-4 used mac 250s (the old ones) for 2k...but that's about it
besides that'd be overkill and pointless for a bar band
we're talking up to about a dozen 10mm LED cans and a simple controller here
Post by: Adam Schaible on December 28, 2009, 04:55:19 PM
Here's my current inventory. I'm still going to add 1 or 2 foggers but I think moving heads will get peoples attention and maybe give them another reason to choose me. I also might add a laser or two.
2x T-stands with bags
http://www.guitarcenter.com/American-DJ-LTS-1-Light-Stand-80 0615-i1155441.gc
4x Chauvet ColorPalette
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Chauvet-COLOR-Palette-DMX-LED-Co lor-Bank-System-104326020-i1321389.gc
2x American DJ Accu Spot 250 Hybrid
http://www.pssl.com/!hhjBT5is0zFkmYB4EBFVjQ!/American-DJ-Acc u-Spot-250-Hybrid-Moving-Head-s
American DJ My DMX
http://www.guitarcenter.com/American-DJ-MY-DMX-Lighting-Cont rol-Software-105322119-i1393708.gc
I'm a bit over the 2k mark, but not much. No where near the best lighting rig, no where near the worst - but I think it will do ok for me.
Post by: Lester Moran on December 28, 2009, 06:21:08 PM
When I'm forced to bring lights for a budget show, it's eight par 56s on Ultimate Support trees, and eight 500w Fresnels on Atlas trees (that I traded two SM57s for about 25 years ago), and two floor-cans to put behind the drummer.
Lightronics eight-channel programmable controller.
Yeah, it's pitiful. That's why they should hire lights from someone besides me.
Les
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 28, 2009, 08:04:49 PM
Thanks!
Phil
Post by: Adam Schaible on December 28, 2009, 08:12:12 PM
It's less than twice the price and a lot brighter.
All of my searches seemed to agree so I tried them.
Best bang for the buck in my opinion.
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on December 28, 2009, 08:28:41 PM
I plan to go with 12 Chauvet LEDrain 38Par's, 2 Odyssey LT-PT2 stands, Chauvet Mega Strobe, and Chauvet Obey 70 DMX Controller. With the exception of cables, that will put me just over $1300. I will run 6-8 upstage, 2-4 downstage, and 2 behind drummer. Strobe behind and above drummer. I already have a cheap truss system for these few downstage lights (as well as a drape behind the drummer). So all together I'm looking at about $1500 for a pretty easy rig to setup, could have it paid off in less than a year, and will be able to put on a decent generic show for bands I dont work with much, yet still have the ability to do more intricate scenes and chases.
I can/will add more when necessary.
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on December 28, 2009, 10:14:04 PM
| Adam Schaible wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 19:12 |
I tried a budget LED par ($125 range) and it was much much dimmer. The ColorPalette has about 4x the LED's of a Par 64 can. |
There is a huge difference between entry-level cans and those just a small step up in price. Compare the specs of these two fixtures:
http://www.colorkeyled.com/product_stagepar64_10mm.php 183 LEDs, 199 lux, 30 watts, $139
http://www.colorkeyled.com/product_stagepar64_1watt.php 36 LEDs, 4133 lux, 52 watts, $239
Also, they are obviously meant to provide different functions. They have different coverage areas and the can should have a somewhat sharper edge to it than the ColorPalette, which I guess is meant to be a wash fixture. Or a crowd-facing fixture that distracts raver girls while stoner boys put things into their drinks. I dunno. I can see value in both fixtures.
The controllers is where I am really stuck. I would like something that is really easy for a novice like me to operate both live and pre-programmed. It seems like I will want a MIDI foot-pedal as well. It seems like I might be able to use a MIDI foot-board to not only control some light functions, but also to send tap-tempo to my FX processors. This is something I am going to look into, as I wouldn't mind being able to change the delays with my foot and having that same action also affect the time between chase steps on some fixtures. I have a lot of learning ahead of me.
Post by: Andy Peters on December 28, 2009, 10:29:52 PM
| Lester Moran wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 16:21 |
and eight 500w Fresnels ... |
Bonus points if you know how to pronounce the name "Fresnel."
-a
Post by: Adam Schaible on December 28, 2009, 11:04:43 PM
| Jeff Wheeler wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 21:14 | ||
There is a huge difference between entry-level cans and those just a small step up in price. Compare the specs of these two fixtures: http://www.colorkeyled.com/product_stagepar64_10mm.php 183 LEDs, 199 lux, 30 watts, $139 http://www.colorkeyled.com/product_stagepar64_1watt.php 36 LEDs, 4133 lux, 52 watts, $239 Also, they are obviously meant to provide different functions. They have different coverage areas and the can should have a somewhat sharper edge to it than the ColorPalette, which I guess is meant to be a wash fixture. Or a crowd-facing fixture that distracts raver girls while stoner boys put things into their drinks. I dunno. I can see value in both fixtures. The controllers is where I am really stuck. I would like something that is really easy for a novice like me to operate both live and pre-programmed. It seems like I will want a MIDI foot-pedal as well. It seems like I might be able to use a MIDI foot-board to not only control some light functions, but also to send tap-tempo to my FX processors. This is something I am going to look into, as I wouldn't mind being able to change the delays with my foot and having that same action also affect the time between chase steps on some fixtures. I have a lot of learning ahead of me. |
Very different fixtures and like speakers it's best to go and try them if you can. I was surprised with the colorpalette's -- FWIW I paid $140 each.
Post by: Rick Powell on December 29, 2009, 02:06:54 AM
Post by: Duane Massey on December 29, 2009, 10:00:54 AM
ColorKey
ADJ (newer models)
Elation
Some Chauvet
Fixtures to avoid:
Cheaplights
Some Chauvet
Most "direct imports"
Make sure you look at beam angle, as looking at only the lux, or even the number/wattage of led's will not tell the whole story. The price of fixtures has dropped considerably, and the quality has improved.
As a side note, if you're considering movers/scanners, the ADJ X-Scan is a great fixture for the $$ if you are using all led's.
Post by: Erik R Anderson on December 29, 2009, 05:33:45 PM
What bands DO care about is how BIG a show they put on. How big a show does your $2500 effects processor make? ZERO! How big a show does a good light show make? TONS! It sucks but is the truth.
Get some light gear together, Hire a cheap but competent light guy for $75 and charge the band an extra $100-150. Will the gear be payed off quickly? NO! But the extra work you get from it will pay off in spades.
If you are looking for lights on the cheap, start off with an elation scene setter board, and 12 cans in the back and 4 in the front.
I got dimmers on ebay brand new for $50 buck a piece X4. The elation was $225 and the used 16 cans with bulbs were $250. and about another $700 for truss and stands all used. Please for the love of god, stay away from LED pars. They look super cheap. Later you can add some intelligent fixtures and charge more. I also use menu pricing for my lights. anywhere from just front lights to the whole setup.
Post by: Duane Massey on December 29, 2009, 05:44:23 PM
Quality lights (led or conventional) look good.
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on December 29, 2009, 06:03:43 PM
Post by: Tom Manchester on December 29, 2009, 06:18:22 PM
For larger shows I have a 18x1.2K dimmer rack and run Soca to source4 six bars, but that requires quite a bit of power. One thing I learned after fooling with lighting for the past several years is avoid loading your light show with gimic lighting effects like "police lights" and sound active disco effects. IMO, a nice simple par rig (LED or Conventional) looks way more classy and professional. If you can afford the higher initial cost, 4 LED pars per side on a tree with tidy cabling would be a pretty bad-ass and low power consuming bar rig.
Post by: Adam Schaible on December 29, 2009, 06:47:35 PM
| Erik R Anderson wrote on Tue, 29 December 2009 16:33 |
Some of these replies made me laugh. I have been doing sound and lighting for many years, so let me let you guys in on a solid hard truth that will be VERY hard for some to swallow. Most bands don't give a flying "F" how good the sound is if the monitors are good. The rest of your talents and gear is for YOUR satisfaction and maybe one or two people in the crowd. What bands DO care about is how BIG a show they put on. How big a show does your $2500 effects processor make? ZERO! How big a show does a good light show make? TONS! It sucks but is the truth. Get some light gear together, Hire a cheap but competent light guy for $75 and charge the band an extra $100-150. Will the gear be payed off quickly? NO! But the extra work you get from it will pay off in spades. If you are looking for lights on the cheap, start off with an elation scene setter board, and 12 cans in the back and 4 in the front. I got dimmers on ebay brand new for $50 buck a piece X4. The elation was $225 and the used 16 cans with bulbs were $250. and about another $700 for truss and stands all used. Please for the love of god, stay away from LED pars. They look super cheap. Later you can add some intelligent fixtures and charge more. I also use menu pricing for my lights. anywhere from just front lights to the whole setup. |
I think you are probably correct with the majority of this but one thing you need to consider with LED's - most of us are concerned about electricity in the venue's so adding the lights you're talking about more than doubles our power requirements. Probably multiplies what we currently need by 4. I can do a show on 1 20a circuit, but it's really pushing it. If I'm lucky I have 2 circuits, and super lucky I have 3. Non LED lights simply aren't a real option.
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on December 29, 2009, 06:53:49 PM
| Tom Manchester wrote on Tue, 29 December 2009 17:18 |
If you can afford the higher initial cost, 4 LED pars per side on a tree with tidy cabling would be a pretty bad-ass and low power consuming bar rig. |
This is exactly my plan, but I want to have good control of the fixtures. I have spent many hours watching controller instruction videos, reading manuals, searching The Google, Wikipedia, etc. and I feel like I am no closer to understanding what controller I want -- although I do have a better idea of what it should let me do.
Some of my competitors do lights, and they basically put up some cans and run the same chase(?) all night, some pushing a button and some just use them in a sound-activated mode. I feel like that would be a waste of my investment.
I want to be able to take the customer's set list, spend some time in the garage, and save some stuff into the controller for at least some crowd-pleasing songs. If the band is about to play a Journey song, I would like to be able to recall "Faithfully" into the light controller and then have the stage lit in an appropriate way for the mood of the song. If I have the luxury of tapping a foot-switch or MIDI pedal to advance the "stuff" that would be great.
So I need to figure out what sort of controllers will enable me to do that with a few basic fixtures.
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 29, 2009, 07:31:14 PM
| Jeff Wheeler wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 14:44 |
I am currently considering 6 - 8 LED fixtures on trees and a DMX controller with foot-switch and "sound activated" features. I want to keep it under $2000. This seems like a reasonable budget. Milt's suggestion is not bad if the band groupie/girlfriend does an okay job with the light console, at least better than I could do with pre-programmed chases and a foot-switch; but if they make the band look unprofessional, they also make me look unprofessional. So that is probably something I should stay away from or at least approach carefully. If they really want to pay for someone to operate the lights, I can probably get that going; but as you said I would have to charge at least $100 to have an extra person for that. That is an unlikely luxury for my customers. |
I'm with you on this all the way Andy / Milt / Jeff. You have to have some lighting, so in light of that (pun intended) I have a rig we use for the small gigs (2-500) which is pretty much self contained. It consists of 12 truss mounted PAR cans, dimmers, a couple of DMX something that I don't remember, a wash, and a 16 channel controller mounted in the back of one of the cases.
We usually put most of it behind the band, some in front, plug one cable from all the shit into the controller, turn it on and let it cycle throughout the night using it's 200 or whatever programmed steps. If I feel really good I'll attach a mic and let it change the steps. Anything is fine as long as I don't have to fuck with it.
In other cases we use the venue lighting which is good enough for me, and unlike the post above suggesting the waterbags go to watch the lights, it's never bothered me or anyone else when we've had no lighting, but it has been a problem when there was no sound.
Well, I guess if that's the case fuck the LS9, and I'll spend the 5K on lights.
Post by: Art Welter on December 29, 2009, 07:35:55 PM
It will do all you want and you won't grow out of it for a long time. You could do a fairly complex rock or corporate show with it.
That said, if you set a few of the Opti RGB to respond to music, and another few on different color scroll speeds, it actually looks pretty cool with no attention (or light board) whatsoever, and won't look the same all night long.
Art Welter
Post by: Vinny D'Agostino on December 29, 2009, 10:27:04 PM
| Bob Leonard wrote on Tue, 29 December 2009 19:31 |
and unlike the post above suggesting the waterbags go to watch the lights, it's never bothered me or anyone else when we've had no lighting, but it has been a problem when there was no sound. |
Post by: Spenser J. Hamilton on December 29, 2009, 10:53:47 PM
Edit: For the naysayers that say that LED's look cheap, here is a small list of acts that have accepted LED lighting for their production:
Chevelle
Theory of a Deadman
Default
Hedley
Bif Naked
Silverstein
Social Code
The Trews
Post by: Martin Primus on December 29, 2009, 11:47:37 PM
This isn't the best picture ever...very low ceilings in this club, but you get the idea.
Post by: Spenser J. Hamilton on December 30, 2009, 12:08:56 AM
| Martin Primus wrote on Tue, 29 December 2009 23:47 |
Luckily most of the clubs/bars I go to have 220 available for the distro. Lighting is 16 PAR56's across the back and 4 more up front for facials. Cheap DMX packs and a Behringer (yes I said it!!!!) DMX controller. Simple, inexpensive, and looks good. This isn't the best picture ever...very low ceilings in this club, but you get the idea. |
That ceiling is terribly low, props for working with what you have.
Post by: James Feenstra on December 30, 2009, 01:08:56 AM
| Bob Leonard wrote on Tue, 29 December 2009 19:31 |
In other cases we use the venue lighting which is good enough for me, and unlike the post above suggesting the waterbags go to watch the lights, it's never bothered me or anyone else when we've had no lighting, but it has been a problem when there was no sound. Well, I guess if that's the case fuck the LS9, and I'll spend the 5K on lights. |
if they can't see the band, that's a problem, cause they leave and stop buying beer
venue owners don't like it when people do that for some reason
Post by: Andy Peters on December 30, 2009, 01:21:41 AM
| James Feenstra wrote on Tue, 29 December 2009 23:08 | ||
if they can't see the band, that's a problem, cause they leave and stop buying beer venue owners don't like it when people do that for some reason |
In my experience, bad sound drives people out of the bar a lot faster than bad lighting.
-a
Post by: Tom Manchester on December 30, 2009, 01:30:31 AM
| James Feenstra wrote on Wed, 30 December 2009 01:08 | ||
if they can't see the band, that's a problem, cause they leave and stop buying beer |
I usually can't see the band very well after about 6 beers anyway, so it's not a big deal.
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on December 30, 2009, 01:32:07 AM
We are discussing a topic that can enhance a show correct? If you dont think its needed, you probably are no help to the OP in his search for the best equipment for his job.
Not being a dick, but some of us have to do what we can to get a gig over someone else, then do it better, and hope to pay the bills. I thought we were here to help each other get from point A to B.
Carry on
Post by: Adam Whetham on December 30, 2009, 01:52:39 AM
| Tom Manchester wrote on Wed, 30 December 2009 00:30 |
I usually can't see the band very well after about 6 beers anyway, so it's not a big deal. |
6 beers wouldn't get me anywhere close to feeling anything
Lucky you, you're a cheap date.Here's a normal setup of ours. 8 LED's in the back with a 4 cell light a side. The LED's have made our show a completely different animal.
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on December 30, 2009, 02:16:01 AM
- to answer the original question.
Depending on the venue, from a few cans at front to (maximum) 2x4 (soon to be LED) in front + 32 Pars (P46) and 6 Martin SCX scanners on truss and towers in the back, and 8 opti pars placed ground or side. Always corporate-type parties. Any music place we play already has enough going on.
But nature abhors reason:
I have rented out the lights alone, for more than I can rent out the lights with a full audio rig.
If I add the band, the price drops further.
(that, at least, makes sense)
Post by: James Feenstra on December 30, 2009, 02:47:12 AM
| Andy Peters wrote on Wed, 30 December 2009 01:21 | ||||
In my experience, bad sound drives people out of the bar a lot faster than bad lighting. -a |
people will drink at a bar without music playing
people won't drink at a bar if there's no lights on in the bar
anyways, in terms of concerts, sound is considerably more important than lights, and i've proved this to many an LD before...consequently as an LD, if the FOH mix sucks, the light show suffers, cause if I can't hear the band, I can't hit cues
Post by: Tom Young on December 30, 2009, 07:14:02 AM
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on December 30, 2009, 11:47:45 AM
| James Feenstra wrote on Wed, 30 December 2009 01:47 |
people will drink at a bar without music playing people won't drink at a bar if there's no lights on in the bar |
During a powerful wind-storm here a couple years ago, there were no lights in the bar for most of the day. As luck would have it, the cash register was open when the power failed; so the bartender continued selling booze for about 4 hours "in the dark." The lack of power did not discourage anyone, and a customer even brought his generator (and lots of home depot cord) to run the big screen TV so we could watch football.
Could anyone tell me about the functional differences between the Show Designer 1 and 2?
Post by: Adam Schaible on December 30, 2009, 11:54:35 AM
Post by: Art Welter on December 30, 2009, 01:52:17 PM
| Jeff Wheeler wrote on Wed, 30 December 2009 09:47 | ||
During a powerful wind-storm here a couple years ago, there were no lights in the bar for most of the day. As luck would have it, the cash register was open when the power failed; so the bartender continued selling booze for about 4 hours "in the dark." The lack of power did not discourage anyone, and a customer even brought his generator (and lots of home depot cord) to run the big screen TV so we could watch football. Could anyone tell me about the functional differences between the Show Designer 1 and 2? |
Flash memory so the software can be updated from a computer.
48 fixtures of up to 32 channels each compared to 16 for the Show Designer 1.
1024 DMX channels compared to 512.
4 data wheels compared to one.
With LED lights, you could have lit the whole bar as well as run the big screen TV.
It amazes me how bright 9 LED lights, drawing only 315 watts total are.
Before I got LED lights, I used four 300 watt halogen construction flood lights with very pale gells for basic plug and play stage lighting.
The LED lights are a narrower beam, but brighter at 1/10 the power consumption. The color range is fantastic.
I never thought that I'd see the day when a decent looking light show could use less power than the sound system.
Art Welter
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 30, 2009, 03:01:59 PM
| Art Welter wrote on Wed, 30 December 2009 13:52 | ||||
Flash memory so the software can be updated from a computer. 48 fixtures of up to 32 channels each compared to 16 for the Show Designer 1. 1024 DMX channels compared to 512. 4 data wheels compared to one. With LED lights, you could have lit the whole bar as well as run the big screen TV. It amazes me how bright 9 LED lights, drawing only 315 watts total are. Before I got LED lights, I used four 300 watt halogen construction flood lights with very pale gells for basic plug and play stage lighting. The LED lights are a narrower beam, but brighter at 1/10 the power consumption. The color range is fantastic. I never thought that I'd see the day when a decent looking light show could use less power than the sound system. Art Welter |
Hey Art,
If I may ask, what LED's do you use? Pretty much trying to get an idea of what are some other good bang-to-buck compact LED Pars, as only several actual products have been mentioned.
Thanks,
Phil
Post by: Adam Whetham on December 30, 2009, 03:07:42 PM
| Phil Lewandowski wrote on Wed, 30 December 2009 14:01 |
Hey Art, If I may ask, what LED's do you use? Pretty much trying to get an idea of what are some other good bang-to-buck compact LED Pars, as only several actual products have been mentioned. Thanks, Phil |
From his post from the previous page.
| Quote: |
I use an Elation Show Designer 1 to control nine Elation Opti RGBs. |
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 30, 2009, 03:09:25 PM
| Adam Whetham wrote on Wed, 30 December 2009 15:07 | ||||
From his post from the previous page.
|
Thanks Adam, I caught the Show Designer but some reason missed the Pars.
I apologize,
Phil
Post by: Adam Whetham on December 30, 2009, 03:26:44 PM
Art are you using the standard 15? degree lens? or the option wider one? I don't remember what degree they were, but we sold a few of them to the local high school theatre as they wanted the wider spread.
-Adam
Post by: Art Welter on December 30, 2009, 03:29:50 PM
| Phil Lewandowski wrote on Wed, 30 December 2009 13:01 | ||||||
Hey Art, If I may ask, what LED's do you use? Pretty much trying to get an idea of what are some other good bang-to-buck compact LED Pars, as only several actual products have been mentioned. Thanks, Phil |
I was one of those that mentioned what I used before
I use an Elation Show Designer 1 to control nine Elation Opti RGBs.
I don't know if they still are the best bang for the buck, but good LEDs last pretty much forever, and the Elation units are well made.
As has been said before, compare beam width and light output on anything you consider. If there is no data available, the unit probably does not have adequate light output to light a performance.
For instance, I bought a pair of Elation LED pin spots, using a lot of standard type LEDs. They use almost the same electronics package as the Opti RGBs, yet cost only about 1/4 the price. They are useless for lighting anything further than about 2 foot away.
In sound, you compare output in dB SPL and coverage angle, rather than watts.
In lighting, compare lumens or foot candles, coverage angle, and build quality.
Post by: Lester Moran on December 30, 2009, 04:55:19 PM
| Tom Young wrote on Wed, 30 December 2009 12:14 |
On the internet, no one can hear how you pronounce Fresnel... |
As I recall, I could pronounce it first, learned not to adjust beam on BTLs when "lit" second (oops!)... and finally learned how to spell "Fresnel" some time after all that...
I suspect I'm not the only one who got his Fresnel "education" in that very same progression...
Les
Post by: Tom Young on December 30, 2009, 05:54:01 PM
.... but I think I heard it and then cracked a few dictionaries until I found it.
(this was at least 2 decades before the first "public" appearance of the internet)
Post by: Rick Powell on December 30, 2009, 07:20:58 PM
---------------
The ColorKey 1 watt LED par 64's are about $235 street price and have 36 1w elements, 12 each RG and b.
The Wiedamark Tri Color cans are $380-440 street price and have 18 3w elements, which combine and color-mix RG or B in each element.
These are the leading price contenders I have seen out there that offer higher performance than the garden-variety weak LED wash.
I see the whole industry going to more tri-color LED elements over the next few years for pro applications, due to their better white light mixing, avoidance of LED shadows, and avoiding the pixelated RGB look for back-lighting.
Post by: Duane Massey on December 30, 2009, 09:59:27 PM
Post by: Richard Rajchel on December 30, 2009, 10:47:41 PM
Post by: Andy Peters on December 31, 2009, 03:03:44 PM
| Richard Rajchel wrote on Wed, 30 December 2009 20:47 |
If you already have a laptop the easiest controller is a USB to DBX box. |
USB-to-DMX box, I suppose?
Using a laptop as a lighting controller is a great idea.
-a
Post by: Richard Rajchel on December 31, 2009, 04:18:08 PM
Post by: Alan Hamilton on January 02, 2010, 10:56:30 AM
I do agree that at the weekend club level you should have 'something'. But that something can consist of 2-4 separate Pars mounted on a 12" sq piece of plywood or mic stand bases. And those pars probably need to be Par 56 or smaller due to power draw concerns.
No controller... No truss... No dimmers... Just "ON".
As a matter of fact, when you're getting to the point that stuff matters then you're either playing clubs that already have pre-existing lighting installed OR you're not doing clubs any longer.
In small clubs in Indiana I can think of very few that have sufficient power to support a large light show. ...Or sufficient ceiling height... Or a proper load in to make carrying that stuff worth it if they did.
There were places in the 80's but this isn't the 80's any longer.
Think "stage wash". A couple of cans on top of the speakers to wash the stage and a couple of uplights around the drums or uplighting the back wall would be about the extent of any lighting you should provide unless we're talking quite a bit more dollars than a band is going to pay for production... unless I'm missing my guess on what market we're talking about. To include truss, lifts, several cans, distro, etc it would cost more than the band is even making. Otherwise, it doesn't make financial sense to invest and provide it. Not to mention just the added time involved to prep, pack, set up, focus, strike, load.... yada yada yada...
Post by: Adam Schaible on January 02, 2010, 11:34:12 AM
Post by: Alan Hamilton on January 02, 2010, 11:51:39 AM
| Adam Schaible wrote on Sat, 02 January 2010 16:34 |
I dunno.... we can agree to disagree. If do great sound AND you have great lights... someone will give you the callback rather than someone else they've used. Does that mean you NEED the lights for the callback? Maybe not, but it makes it nearly automatic. |
If the extra lighting isn't paying for itself and making a decent ROI and is also requiring more time to go into show setup/strike then I'm not sure the callback matters or is even desired.
Post by: Adam Schaible on January 02, 2010, 12:23:32 PM
I mix in a club that does a B level national act weekly. They have really nice lights and it really makes a "show" not just a jam session.
My marketing is that I can get the average bar to feel kinda like that club. You guys need to look at this as an extra revenue stream. Get the bar owner involved, get them to put up an extra $150-200 for a show, and not just a bar jam band. Obviously the band needs to have a decent draw (ie - great stage presence). What I've found is that even if a band isn't that great (or maybe they don't sound amazing/etc) the average person is much more impressed with volume/stage presence/overall show than the particulars a sound engineer may be concerned with.
It doesn't take too much but I think it's short-sighted to dismiss lighting as insignificant.
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on January 02, 2010, 02:20:46 PM
Post by: Dave Rickard on January 02, 2010, 10:35:59 PM
| Alan Hamilton wrote on Sat, 02 January 2010 09:51 |
If the extra lighting isn't paying for itself and making a decent ROI and is also requiring more time to go into show setup/strike then I'm not sure the callback matters or is even desired. |
Excellent point, Alan.
If the lights aren't showing ROI, then they are costing the business money. The exception would be losing a little in the short term to gain more in the long term.
But then, that's not an exception, that's a plan. The hitch is to get clients to pay more for added value. That's hard to do when you start by "giving it away to get in the door".
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on January 02, 2010, 11:50:48 PM
| Dave Rickard wrote on Sat, 02 January 2010 21:35 | ||
That's hard to do when you start by "giving it away to get in the door". |
Yeah but what if that makes the difference between low profit job and no job?
Post by: Spenser J. Hamilton on January 02, 2010, 11:55:37 PM
| benjamin fisher wrote on Sat, 02 January 2010 23:50 | ||||
Yeah but what if that makes the difference between low profit job and no job? |
Decide if that low profit job will lead to a high profit job, else stay home for the night and enjoy your family, that's what I do.
Post by: Dave Rickard on January 03, 2010, 02:22:01 AM
| benjamin fisher wrote on Sat, 02 January 2010 21:50 | ||||
Yeah but what if that makes the difference between low profit job and no job? |
When all is said and done, low profit CAN mean you paid to be there.
If you paid to be there, you'd have made more money staying at home.
But staying at home doesn't lead to better gigs.
When you need to "normalize" your price, that can lead to no job also.
That doesn't lead to better gigs either.
10 $1,000 gigs pays more than 20 $500 gigs, or 50 $200 gigs, or 100 $100 gigs.
Only you can decide your business plan. You have to draw your own line.
Post by: John Shelbourn on January 03, 2010, 02:39:21 PM
Post by: Randall "Btm Fdr" Cook on January 26, 2010, 03:45:24 PM
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 27, 2010, 01:13:24 PM
Post by: Adam Schaible on January 27, 2010, 01:21:30 PM
Post by: Dick Rees on January 27, 2010, 01:30:27 PM
| benjamin fisher wrote on Sat, 02 January 2010 22:50 | ||||
Yeah but what if that makes the difference between low profit job and no job? |
I'm gonna have a little fun here.
Back in the middle of the last century when I was in high school, there were girls we all new who would do anything for attention. They were out every Saturday night regardless of the profit margin. If I may paraphrase your statement, they didn't know the difference between a low profit job and a (rhymes with no) job. You might as well change your name from Ben Fisher to Ben Dover.
And to further address your "reasoning": substitute "poke in the eye with a sharp stick" for "low profit job". Which is better, a poke in the eye with a sharp stick or no poke in the eye?
Just havin' fun........
Post by: David Morison on January 30, 2010, 12:42:21 PM
| Dick Rees wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 16:43 |
I tried using matches, but they're hard to light when they keep moving around and even then they tend not to stay lit for very long before going out. |
You're not using enough gasoline on the band members if you need more than one match per.
David.