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Church and H.O.W. – Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Jasen Chung . on February 04, 2015, 12:28:46 AM
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Hi Everyone,
Simple question - so I have two stage pianos used for Pad & Keyboard Patches for church worship. I have a mono system in essence with two danley SH96's on the side and two DBH218's floated in the middle. Both seating areas are to the left and right of the subs. I right now use both left and right outputs and put them into individual channels and then pan them hard left and right. Is this even necessary in my set up? I'm wondering if this is why I'm having trouble mixing these two instruments.
Thoughts?
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Jasen, short answer is no, you don't need to take stereo outs from the keys. Just use the left (mono) output from each keyboard.
What do you mean you have "trouble" mixing the two keyboards? Trouble as in it sounds thin like there's phase cancellation going on?
As a keyboard player who used to give sound techs grief when told I'm being mixed in mono (aren't we keyboard players special?), when I encounter keyboard players who 'demand' to be mixed in stereo, I just let them have it their way. At the mixer, I leave it panned hard L/R as you have it. Sounds like it's in stereo through the headphones and in the recording, but to the FOH it's still the mono out from the console, or the L/R out of the console mixed to mono through the speaker processor.
JR
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How would i be able to tell if theres phasing issues? It's just hard to mix the bottom end and get clarity on the piano. I have a lower line of the Yamaha CP and a Roland Stage Piano GX700 (I think thats the model) - both with great patches but don't know why its hard to mix. I EQ like crazy too.
Jasen, short answer is no, you don't need to take stereo outs from the keys. Just use the left (mono) output from each keyboard.
What do you mean you have "trouble" mixing the two keyboards? Trouble as in it sounds thin like there's phase cancellation going on?
As a keyboard player who used to give sound techs grief when told I'm being mixed in mono (aren't we keyboard players special?), when I encounter keyboard players who 'demand' to be mixed in stereo, I just let them have it their way. At the mixer, I leave it panned hard L/R as you have it. Sounds like it's in stereo through the headphones and in the recording, but to the FOH it's still the mono out from the console, or the L/R out of the console mixed to mono through the speaker processor.
JR
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How would i be able to tell if theres phasing issues? It's just hard to mix the bottom end and get clarity on the piano. I have a lower line of the Yamaha CP and a Roland Stage Piano GX700 (I think thats the model) - both with great patches but don't know why its hard to mix. I EQ like crazy too.
The easiest way to detect phasing issues between the two inputs is to mute one side and see if the tone drastically changes (by rights you should probably bump the other input up a little to keep the level the same).
What's your monitoring situation? On-stage wedges won't control the pattern very well at low frequency, and if you don't keep a tight leash on keys volume in the wedges you can get a bunch of low-frequency wash off the stage--I find string patches are especially bad for this.
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Most stereo piano patches are just lowest notes panned left and progressively panned right as they get higher. I've always done a mono feed for piano because of that as I don't find it very realistic unless you're the one sitting there playing it. It seems to sit better in the mix.
All other patches are in stereo. My string patches are panned more like an orchestra with violins more left to basses more right. Probably not ideal but my FOH is in the middle so I get the full effect.
I used to play keys and I had to watch what my left hand was playing. The keyboard players have to be aware that their left hand is in the bass players region and if they're going to play that low, they have to double the bassist or play higher notes. Get's even worse when the player doesn't have good chops and hits 2 low notes instead of one.
I'll always roll the lo end off the piano and put it back if it's just him playing. I'm also wondering if the problem may be coming off the monitors. Where are you high passing the monitors? We have the same setup except my 96's are the HO model. Same subs. The cast gets plenty off bass from the 218's so I can highpass pretty high.
We don't have a keyboard player as we don't have the budget so we use computer tracks through Logic. Lots of keyboard parts but if I have a patch with too much bottom, I can edit the sequence.
BTW, how do you like your PA? I'm loving mine. Always had problems with PA's in the room that it's in but the Danley's have turned mixing from a struggle to a pleasure.
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In my experience it is a bit of "it depends". This can be keyboard, patching and system dependent. At a previous church with a mono P.A I found for our keyboard mixing in stereo (hard pan L/R) and using the mixers mono summing bus sounded better than just taking the mono send. However, for a different keyboard it actually sounded better using the mono out from the keys and running it mono through the system.
Unfortunately I think it is a case of test both and see what you prefer.
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These days a lot of the Keyboard patches are in stereo. However the L/Mono output should be a summing output that combines the left and right together. I have not come across any major issues with taking both the left and right signals and leaving them panned up the middle. You will have to experiment with one side only vs. both sides summed together to tell if there is cancellations. My bet is no. Having two piano's may be the major issue though. If both are essentially panned up the middle you have two of basically the same thing fighting for space in the mix. Generally the way to fix that is to EQ them differently and pan them respectively in the stereo field. Just because an instrument is in stereo does not mean it needs to be hard left and hard right, it is still acceptable to pan one side hard and leave the other near the center. This should place emphasis for the instrument in the direction of it's panning while still having a small amount of stereo effect.
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Just because an instrument is in stereo does not mean it needs to be hard left and hard right, it is still acceptable to pan one side hard and leave the other near the center.
Exactly. It's a pan knob not a pan switch. Too many people treat it like it has three settings; Left, Center and Right. Although depending on the coverage of your system and the room it's in, panning may not be desirable or even helpful.
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Two mics on a Leslie cabinet - yes. Everything else - no.
Steve.
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It's just hard to mix the bottom end and get clarity on the piano.
There was a recent post here on the keys being muddy in the mix that you can search. You have to keep in mind that the lower octaves of most piano and string patches contain a ton of low end information. I mean a TON. You can almost say electronic keyboards are 20Hz - 20KHz instruments. Have a few notes sustaining, add the patch's reverbs and effects, factor in the mind-blowing dynamic range, then do it again with the 2nd keyboard and yes your mix will be dense if you don't EQ out some of the lows.
You might also check where the front panel EQ sliders on those digital pianos are at. I often have to contend with keyboardists that bump the lower band EQs so they can hear more bass out of their keyboard amps or wedges.
If your mixer has phase reversal switch on the channel strip, make sure it's set the same for L and R channel of a particular keyboard, or that'll be a sure way to get phasing issue.
When I have more than 3 keyboards in the mix, I usually assign the keys to a separate bus and insert a GEQ to tidy up the mix.
Finally, I'd advise against taking the outputs from a keyboard amp into the FOH. Any EQ adjustments on the amp will affect your mix. It's better to use DI's and feed the "thru" onto the keyboard amp.
Best,
JR
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Here's the post from earlier...
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,153044.0.html
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I think the major challenge is that the PA the OP is working with is MONO. Doesn't matter much which way he pans the piano's, they are still going to be in the middle.
The weeding out of potential problems is the big part of his job. Is it cancellations, is it summing, or is it as simple as creating space in the mix with selective EQ for the respective channels?
If the OP does not understand what cancellations from mono summed signals is, or comb filtering for that matter, then there may be more to explain. It sounds as if there is low end build up from summation and or simply a patch that is boomy to begin with.
I like to get the right sound from the source. So as mentioned see if the keyboard it'self can eliminate the issue. I would start by using only the L/Mono out from each one to simplify things. If that doesn't work then move towards selective EQ for each respective channel. Once it starts to work, continue to re-evaluate and improve.
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Many keyboard patches that are made in stereo will often sound 'strange' when being summed to mono.
It is often better to do a proper mono patch or make sure that the keyboard isn't becoming summed mono by connecting the two cables (stereo) at the keyboard but only use one cable at the mixer.
This is also true for many guitarists pedal boards with stereo fx that get summed to mono.
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I think it's better just to use one output. The left is usually marked "(MONO)" anyway.
Steve.
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I think it's better just to use one output. The left is usually marked "(MONO)" anyway.
Steve.
If you only connect one cable then a mono sum of the stereo signal is usually created.
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If you only connect one cable then a mono sum of the stereo signal is usually created.
Yes. And as long as the instrument designer wasn't an idiot, it should be a perfectly usable mono signal.
Steve.
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Yes. And as long as the instrument designer wasn't an idiot, it should be a perfectly usable mono signal.
Steve.
If you by instrument designer means the operator who creates the sounds on the keyboard then most are 'idiots'. Stereo fx creates issues that does not work good at all when being summed to mono.
This is very evident in factory created patches and many users resorts to those sounds....
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Some keyboard patches are swimming in fx. Low notes with lots of reverb and chorus would make for a very muddy sound.
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If you by instrument designer means the operator who creates the sounds on the keyboard then most are 'idiots'.
No. I wasn't thinking about that option. I was thinking more about an electric piano with L and R outputs where usually, just the left will be fine.
Agreed, once you add a human messing around with things, anything can happen!
Steve.
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If you by instrument designer means the operator who creates the sounds on the keyboard then most are 'idiots'. Stereo fx creates issues that does not work good at all when being summed to mono.
This is very evident in factory created patches and many users resorts to those sounds....
Seems you've never programmed a synth before. Sound designers (they are a lot smarter than you think) do not design patches for playing on a PA or in mono. That ain't going to sell the board. Having it sound good in mono is the LAST THING on their minds.
Most keyboards and the patches on them are optimized for stereo playback. Stereo effects are crucial to adding ambience and "meat" to what would otherwise sound thin (and lousy in Guitar Center.)
Every keyboard that I know of has an easy way to bypass the built-in effects. It's the EFX BYPASS button.
JR
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Wow.. I'm the OP. I'm glad I asked. Seems like some good conversations have come about. So I finally went back to my board and I tried putting a "centered" position to my panning for both left and right inputs. It definitely brought a lot of clarity and highs back where I felt it was very hollow no matter what I did. I'm assuming also that because my soundboards position is more to the left speaker facing the stage, I'm getting more of the low end.
Regardless, I also tested my studio monitor that I have that I recently just got thats placed a foot in front of me so I get the SPL's & clarity I need since my SH96's are pointed more toward the audience than where I'm standing. Both the main L & R busses are feeding my single studio monitor. I messed around with the knobs and I got a "phasing" response where panning hard left and right gave such a hollowed sound without the meat of the piano patches, and bringing back toward the center positions gave me the clarity I always thought I needed. To note, the same effect happened in the mains; and for both keyboards.
Just to note, I am NOT using two piano patches. One is for more a Atmospheric Pad layer, and the other is for strictly piano.
I think basically going mono is best for my system from what I'm hearing with very slight panning.
Just an update from my end!
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If your PA system is already mono as you stated in your first post, your statement in the last post doesn't make any sense. Only the volume level will change if you pan the synth channels to center instead of left and right in that case.
Also, with a good PA (and I'd consider the Danleys to be good) you don't need much EQ in the synth channels. Take out the lows a bit, maybe harsh 3kHz a bit (but only if the sound will still cut through in the mix) and that's it. Everything else should be done by editing the sound patches!
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Sorry, but thats just what I clearly hear with my ears. It's not just merely a volume change but a depth & richness changed to the EQ. For example when I hard pan left and right, the lows stay in the same SPL and the sound literally hollows out.
That's just how it is, regardless if it makes sense or not.
Yes the Danleys are freaking amazing, very little EQ to the speakers themselves, but the patches needed some cuts in 250HZ and a HPF to get the muddiness out but I believe thats very subjective to the mix, patch & music type.
If your PA system is already mono as you stated in your first post, your statement in the last post doesn't make any sense. Only the volume level will change if you pan the synth channels to center instead of left and right in that case.
Also, with a good PA (and I'd consider the Danleys to be good) you don't need much EQ in the synth channels. Take out the lows a bit, maybe harsh 3kHz a bit (but only if the sound will still cut through in the mix) and that's it. Everything else should be done by editing the sound patches!
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Seems you've never programmed a synth before. Sound designers (they are a lot smarter than you think) do not design patches for playing on a PA or in mono. That ain't going to sell the board. Having it sound good in mono is the LAST THING on their minds.
Most keyboards and the patches on them are optimized for stereo playback. Stereo effects are crucial to adding ambience and "meat" to what would otherwise sound thin (and lousy in Guitar Center.)
Every keyboard that I know of has an easy way to bypass the built-in effects. It's the EFX BYPASS button.
JR
That was the essense of my previous posts if you read carefully. As you can see 'idiots' were in '' just to respond to a specific post.
If you by synths mean dx7, juno, tritons and even my current korg kronos - Then yes, I have/am programming synths. Not so much nowdays, but still...
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Well if your getting phasing issues in a mono mix with stereo panned patches you may be hearing mid side artifacts of the keyboard patch? Obviously the patch is summing back to mono incorrectly in some way.
If I run a mono mix ( one where both speakers are fed the same signal from one send ) I do one of two things. I either do not pan anything at all and run out the stereo master L side output, or send signal from the desk from either the mono out ( if it has one ) or from an auxillary.
It is true that many patches on keyboards these days are highly reliant on stereo operation. However any keyboard worth it's salt that has an output labeled Mono, should have no problem summing the signal down into a single line. In your case for channel count reduction and reducing potential issues, I would run the keys in mono only, fed from their mono outs.
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Please explain exactly how your gear is hooked up from mixer to speakers. Something seems to be strange. If you had a true mono system there would be no difference but volume if you pan both stereo channels to center, because it wouldn't matter where the signals are summed to mono, the result would be the same (except sound, as said).
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Back to your original question: short of needing to record in stereo, why is it that you are not using the L/mono out from each keyboard?