ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: MIKE Lynn on September 16, 2014, 11:02:01 AM
-
http://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/line-arrays/c/879
Who wants a line array system ??? ;D Raise your hand !!! Cheep! LOL these things are serious :P
Not sure whay they call them line arrays when each box is 90x50 dispersion mabee its because they look like a line array box and you can hang up to 8 per side. I saw them on E-bay when I was looking around and had to take a look. These things are super cheep so be ready for every bar band and dj out there to have a "line array" system now.
-
...oh no...
Well, like everything else, it's just a matter of time before someone (or a company) takes an idea and trivializes it to the lowest common denominator. Look what happen to the U.S. college system; now, there's a glut of for-profit schools calling themselves "colleges" and pulling in unsuspecting people and "selling" them an education. Appears SA is playing the same game with line arrays.
The specs are questionable (among other things)...
Condition New -- (does this need to be stated?)
Woofer Two 15" Woofers (LoudSpeaker)
Woofer Specs Two High Powered 15 Inch Subwoofers per Cabinet --(this was just stated in the entry above)
Coverage Pattern 90 x 50 -- (is this possible for a sub - from SA?)
Suspension / Mounting High Intensity Aluminum Suspension Parts -- (what is High Intensity Aluminum, and why is just the parts?)
"Predatory Marketing" comes to mind when I think of (or see) SA.
-
...oh no...
Well, like everything else, it's just a matter of time before someone (or a company) takes an idea and trivializes it to the lowest common denominator. Look what happen to the U.S. college system; now, there's a glut of for-profit schools calling themselves "colleges" and pulling in unsuspecting people and "selling" them an education. Appears SA is playing the same game with line arrays.
The specs are questionable (among other things)...
Condition New -- (does this need to be stated?)
Woofer Two 15" Woofers (LoudSpeaker)
Woofer Specs Two High Powered 15 Inch Subwoofers per Cabinet --(this was just stated in the entry above)
Coverage Pattern 90 x 50 -- (is this possible for a sub - from SA?)
Suspension / Mounting High Intensity Aluminum Suspension Parts -- (what is High Intensity Aluminum, and why is just the parts?)
"Predatory Marketing" comes to mind when I think of (or see) SA.
Even a turd can smell good. Whoever they source their coaxial monitors from does a good job. For under $500 a pair they do a good job.
I have been posting barbs on their Facebook for a few weeks now about the LA. The funny thing is the people that say "I need a pair of those" or the funnier (or sadder) "I wish I had the money" or "I bet these will sound good" and I say why? Because they are shaped like a huge line of speakers you heard that sounded good?
I have met bands that think playing through an array means they have arrived. Any rational discussion tends to descend into the emotional.
I am not sure how selling people what they want is predatory. All we can do is try and educate.
-
Even a turd can smell good... All we can do is try and educate.
Funny, I looked at the link and got the distinct impression that "Line Array" was more the name of the series of speakers from SA than any actual function of physics, other than a more than slight physical resemblance.
-
There's a guy that's apparently sold on the speakers... LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5lxaV4nUFk&feature=youtu.be
-
There's a guy that's apparently sold on the speakers... LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5lxaV4nUFk&feature=youtu.be
I love how he takes the PEAK power and then doubles it. Of course he has to use a calculator to do it-----------------
He makes me want to rush out and buy some-------------------NOT
Do all the concert systems "snap together"??????????????? Must be some new type of rigging I haven't seen.
-
I like how he compared it to the "JBL Versearray," whatever the hell that is, for $1399.
He seems drunk. lol.
So when he shows the phone to the camera, the image on the phone's screen is reversed. I can't figure out how he's pulling it off. *shrugs*
-
End of the video: "Maybe this will put JBL out of business. Cos the J in JBL stands for "junk." No offense to the guys who own JBL, but I'm a Seismic Audio guy now. Thanks a lot for putting out these Line Arrays."
Epic.
-
(Snip)
Do all the concert systems "snap together"??????????????? Must be some new type of rigging I haven't seen.
"Snap" is typically not a word I want in the same sentence as the word "rigging." Mark C.
-
He seems drunk. lol.
He's on something way more psychotropic than alcohol.
-
End of the video: "Maybe this will put JBL out of business. Cos the J in JBL stands for "junk." No offense to the guys who own JBL, but I'm a Seismic Audio guy now. Thanks a lot for putting out these Line Arrays."
Epic.
That's what made me LOL
-
That's what made me LOL
yeah well shit, let me sell my 4888s off, right? Haha.
-
Okay. Who here on the forum shit that video to poke fun at Seismic Audio? :p
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
I am very much a 'rookie' at designing a live sound system & eager to learn about 'line array' systems.
One that I am considering is the Bose L1 Model II with the B2 sub and the T1 ToneMatch audio engine. I have been told that a single one of these systems can adequately provide quality sound for a 6 member group (2 guitarists - 1 elec. & 1 acoustic, keyboardist - elec., bassist - elec. ,drummer - elec., vocalist.
All members sing lead vocals and provide backing vocals as well.
I have been told that using an external mixer with this system would allow us to perform in a room capable of seating 500 people and cover the room extremely well.
Is this a realistic expectation ? ? ?
It seems that ideally each member would have his/her own system . . . but too expensive as a solution.
I would appreciate any guidance you can give. Thanks ! Restlessheart22 (Jim)
Welcome to the forum! You need to change your display name to your real full name per forum rules.
-
I like how he compared it to the "JBL Versearray," whatever the hell that is, for $1399.
He seems drunk. lol.
So when he shows the phone to the camera, the image on the phone's screen is reversed. I can't figure out how he's pulling it off. *shrugs*
The whole thing is shot into a mirror. His tee shirt text is reversed, too.
If you watch his eyes, you will notice that they seem to be moving side-to-side in a jerky manner. A classic sign (cops are trained to watch for it) of intoxication.
Mark C.
-
The whole thing is shot into a mirror. His tee shirt text is reversed, too.
If you watch his eyes, you will notice that they seem to be moving side-to-side in a jerky manner. A classic sign (cops are trained to watch for it) of intoxication.
Mark C.
Seis-mic
of enormous proportions or effect.( their advertising department.)
Seis-mic
of or relating to earthquakes or other vibrations of the earth and its crust.
( which means it will sound best covered in rocks)
Thank ya Thank ya very much
-
Seis-mic
of enormous proportions or effect.( their advertising department.)
Seis-mic
of or relating to earthquakes or other vibrations of the earth and its crust.
( which means it will sound best covered in rocks)
Thank ya Thank ya very much
dude, put on your glasses or get a larger phone .........really
-
dude, put on your glasses or get a larger phone .........really
… are you talking with yourself…?
-
Not in my life time would I make fun of handicapped people, but I have to wonder if this guy may have a mild case of Downes syndrome.
-
He's "literally dying to get these speakers". Doesn't sound good for business...
-
Not in my life time would I make fun of handicapped people, but I have to wonder if this guy may have a mild case of Downes syndrome.
You're referring to the gentleman in the video, correct?
-
The whole thing is shot into a mirror. His tee shirt text is reversed, too.
If you watch his eyes, you will notice that they seem to be moving side-to-side in a jerky manner. A classic sign (cops are trained to watch for it) of intoxication.
Mark C.
Good eye Mark (no pun intended!)
The eye "twitching" is something called nystagmus. Intoxicated people exhibit nystagmus worse than non-intoxicated people (many people have some form of nystagmus). Police use nystagmus as one of several "tests" when determining if someone is intoxicated. Sobriety tests usually involved 3 tests (nystagmus is one of them) - if the person fails all tests, there is probable cause they are intoxicated.
-
You're referring to the gentleman in the video, correct?
Correct.
-
Correct.
kk, tvm. I was worried "oh shit, Bob called me out on being mean." Haha.
-r
-
I have to laugh at the video. It's just what Seismic needs, a spokesperson who is also the world wide poster child for crack abuse.
I bet if Seismic see's the video they'll change the name of the company.
-
I have to laugh at the video. It's just what Seismic needs, a spokesperson who is also the world wide poster child for crack abuse.
I bet if Seismic see's the video they'll change the name of the company.
Or at least a press release, and if it was done well...
"We'd like to apologise for all of the nut jobs on the internet who are so excited about our impending release of an awesome affordable line array speaker system that they're getting drunk and posting rambling YouTube videos about it. We know they mean well, but we really didn't ask for that. It's just that our rig is going to be SUCH a revolution in having high quality sound at a price everyone can afford that people are very very eager to get their hands on it!"
It would be an interesting marketing tact.
-
Just his picture and a link to Youtube with the words "So easy to use even this guy will get good results."
-
I was expecting it to be this guy...
http://youtu.be/aXGN4nwerhk
-
I was expecting it to be this guy...
http://youtu.be/aXGN4nwerhk
"Slow down the frequencies" "extortion"
I'm dying of laughter.
-
What?!! You guys are still non-believers after such convincing reviews? Maybe this extensive list of tours and endorsing artists will help convince you! Oh, wait... Never mind. :)
-
Or at least a press release, and if it was done well...
"We'd like to apologise for all of the nut jobs on the internet who are so excited about our impending release of an awesome affordable line array speaker system that they're getting drunk and posting rambling YouTube videos about it. We know they mean well, but we really didn't ask for that. It's just that our rig is going to be SUCH a revolution in having high quality sound at a price everyone can afford that people are very very eager to get their hands on it!"
It would be an interesting marketing tact.
"We would like to apologise for the previous apology and would like to inform you he has been sacked" ;D
-
"We would like to apologise for the previous apology and would like to inform you he has been sacked" ;D
We need a like button!
-
I was expecting it to be this guy...
http://youtu.be/aXGN4nwerhk
Oh my. Really? This exists? I'd like 5 minutes with this moron...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Oh my. Really? This exists? I'd like 5 minutes with this moron...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't think this is a joke, at first I did. This guy is serious. "You don't need no processors"
"They got voice coils"
"You have to slow down your audio"
"Turn it down, it sounds better" yeah, turn it all the way down.
He goes on in this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDo4cmuVW9M&list=PL196BBD0E9610CA7B
I rented my gear tonight so miss working! Using the time to do maint. on the 'B' and 'C' rig.
-
And he SWEARS by the "great processors from BBE," like.... wait for it..... their Sonic Maximizer.
-
" Always run your maximize. " "There's only 3 frequencies that run through the wire, mid hi and low."
Where the fuck do these guys come from. It's like trying to watch Neanderthal man explain fire.
-
It was very educational to learn how to 'properly' use EQ for gain staging. Oh, so sad.
-
I don't think this is a joke, at first I did. This guy is serious. "You don't need no processors"
"They got voice coils"
"You have to slow down your audio"
"Turn it down, it sounds better" yeah, turn it all the way down.
He goes on in this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDo4cmuVW9M&list=PL196BBD0E9610CA7B
I rented my gear tonight so miss working! Using the time to do maint. on the 'B' and 'C' rig.
So EXACTLY how do you "slow down your sound" with fader on a console?????
-
I was unaware that speakers got extortion.
-
So EXACTLY how do you "slow down your sound" with fader on a console?????
Not the Fader, Use a Larger wire, If you use a smaller wire it causes higher pressure in the line and forces the sound to travel faster. With a larger wire you have move space to fill and slows down the sound. Sort of like small pipe with water and large pipe with water. Small pipe makes the water faster, stronger and hot. Large pipe expands and reduces the pressure of the water allowing it to be slow, no force, and Colder.
-
"To top it off, don't forget to power it with one of our knock-off lab gruppens!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OlffwCOg1E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OlffwCOg1E)
Speaking of funky line arrays, Carvin got one too.
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/TRX3210 (http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/TRX3210)
-
And here is carvins 4 channel amp.
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/DCM2004L
-
Very interesting analogy of how sound works.
-
Very interesting analogy of how sound works.
he really equates the world's knowledge to his knowledge, it's hilarious
it's the kind of attitude that keeps Behringer in business
yay Behringer! 8)
-
he really equates the world's knowledge to his knowledge, it's hilarious
it's the kind of attitude that keeps Behringer in business
yay Behringer! 8)
I think Seismic was a notch below the pre-Turbo/pre-Midas Behringer. Now Seismic is at least 2 notches below.
-
How come no one hasn't said anything... Does anyone else see Clair written all over these?
-
Does anyone else see Clair written all over these?
Clair, like in Clair Global? Is this supposed to be a joke?
Sent from my To Be Filled By O.E.M. using Tapatalk
-
Clair, like in Clair Global? Is this supposed to be a joke?
Sent from my To Be Filled By O.E.M. using Tapatalk
Yes. Sarcasm.
Rin Tin Tin
-
He goes on in this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDo4cmuVW9M&list=PL196BBD0E9610CA7B
From the video:
"That's all you need - all you need is a maxmizer, and amp, and a mixer... and that's it! ...And your speakers. Don't buy them speaker managments. All that crap... aww, it looks good in the rack. Yeah, but nobody knows how to use it".
Now you know. ;)
-Dennis
-
From the video:
" Don't buy them speaker managments. All that crap... aww, it looks good in the rack. Yeah, but nobody knows how to use it".
Now you know. ;)
-Dennis
Yeah-none of the people HE knows or hangs with---------------------
-
Yeah-none of the people HE knows or hangs with---------------------
Everyone should be concerned according to one of their banner ads they have "eliminated quantum distortion"
I mean wow, if the boys from TN figured out how to control sound on a quantum level.
I have to find that and post a copy. It was hilarious.
-
Good God, they're shipping them...
https://www.facebook.com/seismicaudio/posts/10203503870010649 (https://www.facebook.com/seismicaudio/posts/10203503870010649)
-
Good God, they're shipping them...
https://www.facebook.com/seismicaudio/posts/10203503870010649 (https://www.facebook.com/seismicaudio/posts/10203503870010649)
It's a good thing that there are lot of keys on a QWERTY keyboard between "p" and "t", lest there be a subconscious typing error made in such a comment. :o Mark C.
-
You know, we're all bashing them cos it's Seismic Audio, and the price point means every joker is going to want to buy one, but I feel like this is the same crap we saw when the X32 was announced-- "oh em gee Behringer is getting into the digital realm. This will end badly."
I sorta think we should withhold judgement on these SA boxes (aside from mocking silly marketing claims, but we do that to everyone! :) ) until someone's had a demo, or heard them in use, or measured them, or whatever...
*gets ready to duck from the rotten vegetables that will be thrown his way*
-
You know, we're all bashing them cos it's Seismic Audio, and the price point means every joker is going to want to buy one, but I feel like this is the same crap we saw when the X32 was announced-- "oh em gee Behringer is getting into the digital realm. This will end badly."
I sorta think we should withhold judgement on these SA boxes (aside from mocking silly marketing claims, but we do that to everyone! :) ) until someone's had a demo, or heard them in use, or measured them, or whatever...
*gets ready to duck from the rotten vegetables that will be thrown his way*
Watch for the banana peels.
-
Watch for the banana peels.
I knew you'd reply. Haha. I mean, I felt weird saying what I said, but maybe it's cos it's happy hour here. Weeeeee!
-
You know, we're all bashing them cos it's Seismic Audio, and the price point means every joker is going to want to buy one, but I feel like this is the same crap we saw when the X32 was announced-- "oh em gee Behringer is getting into the digital realm. This will end badly."
I sorta think we should withhold judgement on these SA boxes (aside from mocking silly marketing claims, but we do that to everyone! :) ) until someone's had a demo, or heard them in use, or measured them, or whatever...
*gets ready to duck from the rotten vegetables that will be thrown his way*
LOL, Okay Behringer bought Midas. Did Seismic buy L'Acoustics or JBL or Meyer and we all missed it? I don't see the similarities in the comparison with Behringer. FWIW, you are right. We should actually hear the speakers before forming opinions. I wonder how many can fly in an array and at what safety factor; just curious.
-
LOL, Okay Behringer bought Midas. Did Seismic buy L'Acoustics or JBL or Meyer and we all missed it? I don't see the similarities in the comparison with Behringer. FWIW, you are right. We should actually hear the speakers before forming opinions. I wonder how many can fly in an array and at what safety factor; just curious.
The problem is that if you look at the demographics of who's buying SA stuff, it's most likely people that are going to be ground-stacking them with that "shady" U-mount, so most likely they're all in for the bandwagon of "Ooh! I gots a line array! I'm a real PRO!"
-
The problem is that if you look at the demographics of who's buying SA stuff, it's most likely people that are going to be ground-stacking them with that "shady" U-mount, so most likely they're all in for the bandwagon of "Ooh! I gots a line array! I'm a real PRO!"
Does Seismic Audio have demographics more advanced then "whoever we can impress with technical sounding marketing brochures" ?!?
-
Does Seismic Audio have demographics more advanced then "whoever we can impress with technical sounding marketing brochures" ?!?
"At seismic audio, there are no brochures. Just take our word for it! ;)"
-
So I saw recently that t.c. group is for sale. Imagine Seismic Audio buying THAT.... then the comparisons to Post-Behringer-Buying-Midas would be more interesting..... :-p
-
LOL, Okay Behringer bought Midas. Did Seismic buy L'Acoustics or JBL or Meyer and we all missed it? I don't see the similarities in the comparison with Behringer. FWIW, you are right. We should actually hear the speakers before forming opinions. I wonder how many can fly in an array and at what safety factor; just curious.
I agree, just on the technical merits of the 50 degree vertical dispersion they can be dismissed.
Also, if I buy a set of Behringer's Eurolive speakers (the non carpeted ones) and power them properly I know they will at least work properly. Seismic simply sells crap (except those coaxial monitors, still would like to know who is building them, they just raised the price so now you can get the Alto's for less).
-
I agree, just on the technical merits of the 50 degree vertical dispersion they can be dismissed.
So what do you think the dispersion of a typical line array cabinet is? At something lower than the top 2 octaves?
A narrow pattern takes a larger horn to have control.
The 50° might actually be more realistic of the typical line array cabinet.
I am not defending any product.
-
So what do you think the dispersion of a typical line array cabinet is? At something lower than the top 2 octaves?
A narrow pattern takes a larger horn to have control.
The 50° might actually be more realistic of the typical line array cabinet.
I am not defending any product.
Ivan, you beat me to this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
So what do you think the dispersion of a typical line array cabinet is? At something lower than the top 2 octaves?
Well the QSC KLA12's I have the most experience with have decent control down to about 200Hz at sea level on a standard say with a 76" 5 element line. The box's are rated at 18 degrees and that is about right in the real world. A single box would not have control much below 1000Hz in real life.
If they are rating a single box I see what you are getting at.
-
The 90X50 rating may be what 1 box actually performs at? Any line array box on it's own acts pretty much like any conventional box ( not exactly, but basically ). I would be more worried about the level of intelligibility in a lively room with the crossover point so high. 2.8khz is up there. What makes a PA more intelligible is getting more frequencies into the horn portion of the box. With most of the fundamentals out of the horn crossover point, I get the feeling the box will have some inherent flaws? IT may sound amazing though? If it does, good for them. There are gems out there. I remember many years ago when the Kustom branded 2X10" monitor was considered a great deal of a box. There is a possibility, that like Behringer ( who pulled a win with the X32 ), it's possible for the fisher price of audio to pull one out of the hat?
-
The 90X50 rating may be what 1 box actually performs at? Any line array box on it's own acts pretty much like any conventional box ( not exactly, but basically ). I would be more worried about the level of intelligibility in a lively room with the crossover point so high. 2.8khz is up there. What makes a PA more intelligible is getting more frequencies into the horn portion of the box. With most of the fundamentals out of the horn crossover point, I get the feeling the box will have some inherent flaws? IT may sound amazing though? If it does, good for them. There are gems out there. I remember many years ago when the Kustom branded 2X10" monitor was considered a great deal of a box. There is a possibility, that like Behringer ( who pulled a win with the X32 ), it's possible for the fisher price of audio to pull one out of the hat?
If a single box is 90x50, it demands the Ivan Question: at what frequency?
What benefits the X32 is that every unit has the same mobo, the same software and only the surface and i/o count change. There is significant economy of scale when you're looking at 100K units in an industry as small as live audio/recording, but I'm not sure that a vertical array benefits from the same scaling as the thing that's really important - safety - costs about the same per unit to manufacture and inspect whether the order is 1000 pieces or 10,000 pieces. And that safety has to be built in because some of the purchasers of this product will hang them, although I agree that this will be the new "band" ground stack PA for the must-have-a-'line'-array crowd and an unfortunate number of weekend warriors who need to up their profile to remain competitive in their local markets - again for the must-have-a-'line'-array crowd.
Most of the folks likely to buy this product would probably be better served by purchasing JBL Venue Precision or Vue or Fulcrum or Danley.
-
Speaking of funky line arrays, Carvin got one too.
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/TRX3210 (http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/TRX3210)
Care to edumicate me on what makes this one "funky" ?
EDIT for inflection* I'm still trying to grasp what even makes a line array a line array. I see a lot of users of this system are just stacking 2 per side on poles over subs. Seems there'd be better options for that particular usage, but why do you consider this "funky" as a line array?
-
I would be more worried about the level of intelligibility in a lively room with the crossover point so high. 2.8khz is up there. What makes a PA more intelligible is getting more frequencies into the horn portion of the box.
What makes that more intelligible?
There are a lot of things that make a sound more intelligible-but "getting more freq into the horn" is not one I am aware of.
Now having a horn that is LARGE enough to CONTROL the freq is a good step in the right direction.
But having a lower crossover point into a HF driver on a horn that is to small is NOT the right direction. Below where the horn has control it will simply "spew" sound everywhere-which is NOT what you want for intelligibility.
Sometimes it is better to cross over higher and let the mid drivers natural narrowing at the higher freq take care of the "pattern control" at that point.
It is NOT where the crossover freq is-in fact in a GOOD design you should NOT be able to tell where the crossover freq is. The BEST design will act as a single driver.
So who cares where the crossover freq is if it is not noticeable?
Unless there is something I am missing here.
-
Clair, like in Clair Global? Is this supposed to be a joke?
The grills look exactly like Clair boxes.
-
What makes that more intelligible?
There are a lot of things that make a sound more intelligible-but "getting more freq into the horn" is not one I am aware of.
Now having a horn that is LARGE enough to CONTROL the freq is a good step in the right direction.
But having a lower crossover point into a HF driver on a horn that is to small is NOT the right direction. Below where the horn has control it will simply "spew" sound everywhere-which is NOT what you want for intelligibility.
Sometimes it is better to cross over higher and let the mid drivers natural narrowing at the higher freq take care of the "pattern control" at that point.
It is NOT where the crossover freq is-in fact in a GOOD design you should NOT be able to tell where the crossover freq is. The BEST design will act as a single driver.
So who cares where the crossover freq is if it is not noticeable?
Unless there is something I am missing here.
You could argue the crossover frequency should be determined by the size of the drivers you use in the array. You really need them to cross over so that the drivers are located less than ½ a wavelength apart relative to their highest operating frequency. Assuming you are using 2 x 10 inch drivers and allow a little for the box think in terms of 600Hz or less otherwise you have excessive combe filtering and cancellation, as you know ;)
Then the horn and driver have to be large enough to load down to this frequency as well as producing a wave front that will combine with its neighbours without too many issues. Some do this much better than others.
I was amazed the other day listening to one of the latest and greatest new line-arrays that I could not hear any stereo image! Don’t know why that was ::)
-
You could argue the crossover frequencies are determined by the size of the drivers you use in the array. You really need them to cross over so that the drivers are located less than ½ a wavelength apart of the highest operating frequency. Assuming you are using 2 x 10 inch drivers and allow a little for the box think in terms of 600Hz or less otherwise you have excessive combe filtering and cancellation (as you know ).
Then the horn and driver have to be large enough to load down to this frequency as well as producing a wave front that will combine with its neighbours without too many issues. Some do this much better than others.
I was amazed the other day listening to one of the latest and greatest new line-arrays that I could not hear any stereo image! Don’t know why that was ::)
So lets use your example. Let's assume a "typical 10°" line array box.
For a 600hz crossover the vertical horn size would need to be about 165" tall.
The size of a horn that would control down to that freq with that narrow of a vertical pattern would have to be 165" tall. THATS a big cabinet-------
The reason you did not hear stereo imaging is due to the interference of the different devices arriving at your ears at different times.
One of the "tests" of a "well behaved" set of speakers is to listen to a stereo recording and see if there is a "phantom" image in the middle.
It should be very strong as if there was another speaker in the middle. An individual speaker can sound very good-and even very close to another speaker. But when you put them in the "stereo test", it can quickly become apparent.
It is this same "self interference" that keeps some speakers from "holding together" over long distances.
A single driver speaker (or one that acts as such) will have a great phantom image and hold together over a long distance.
-
...please, let's end this discussion until someone has actual experience with this specific product.
$1300 plus change...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Compact-Line-Array-Package-3x10-Subwoofer-Pair-of-2x5-Speakers-and-Two-Frames-/141402882406?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Speakers_Monitors&hash=item20ec44c166
This (sincerely) is not a slam to those who are, in earnest, preaching to the choir. We need an actual review; not conjecture.
Thanks Y'all,
Dennis
-
So lets use your example. Let's assume a "typical 10°" line array box.
For a 600hz crossover the vertical horn size would need to be about 165" tall.
The size of a horn that would control down to that freq with that narrow of a vertical pattern would have to be 165" tall. THATS a big cabinet-------
The reason you did not hear stereo imaging is due to the interference of the different devices arriving at your ears at different times.
One of the "tests" of a "well behaved" set of speakers is to listen to a stereo recording and see if there is a "phantom" image in the middle.
It should be very strong as if there was another speaker in the middle. An individual speaker can sound very good-and even very close to another speaker. But when you put them in the "stereo test", it can quickly become apparent.
It is this same "self interference" that keeps some speakers from "holding together" over long distances.
A single driver speaker (or one that acts as such) will have a great phantom image and hold together over a long distance.
You could argue the crossover frequency should be determined by the size of the drivers you use. You need the drivers to be located less than ½ a wavelength apart relative to their highest operating frequency. Assuming you are using 2 x 10 inch drivers and allow a little for the box, think in terms of 600Hz or less, otherwise you will have excessive comb filtering and cancellation - as you know ;).
The horn and HF driver then has to be large enough to load down to this frequency as well as producing a wave front that will combine with its neighbours without too many issues. Some do this much better than others.
I was amazed the other day when listening to one of the latest and greatest new line-arrays that I could not hear any stereo image!
Don’t know why that was :o
-
Firstly – sorry for the double post the internet crashed in the middle me posting etc.
So lets use your example. Let's assume a "typical 10°" line array box.
For a 600hz crossover the vertical horn size would need to be about 165" tall.
The size of a horn that would control down to that freq with that narrow of a vertical pattern would have to be 165" tall. THATS a big cabinet-------
Yes, but if all the cabinets play well together then it’s the total length that counts. 165” is not large for a line-array.
The next problem is the width of the horn needed to get good horizontal pattern control and behaviour tends to make the spacing of 10” drivers (for example) too wide.
The reason you did not hear stereo imaging is due to the interference of the different devices arriving at your ears at different times.
One of the "tests" of a "well behaved" set of speakers is to listen to a stereo recording and see if there is a "phantom" image in the middle.
It should be very strong as if there was another speaker in the middle. An individual speaker can sound very good-and even very close to another speaker. But when you put them in the "stereo test", it can quickly become apparent.
Absolutely! I must say I was amazed that in 2014 I could not hear an image. What surprised me was so many people did not notice it, but they noticed the name on the box.
It is this same "self interference" that keeps some speakers from "holding together" over long distances.
A single driver speaker (or one that acts as such) will have a great phantom image and hold together over a long distance.
Yes, and as I said above, some are better than others. I always have a rock solid stereo image with our line-arrays.
Typical line-arrays throw or maintain quality articulate sound for about 200 ft, more recently the better designs will do about twice that.
FWIW the frequency / impulse plot I posted for you on soundforums the other day had a stereo image that was so good that as you walked forward between the two speakers it felt like the singer walked from in front of you straight through your body and was behind you – it felt quite weird to do this.
-
...please, let's end this discussion until someone has actual experience with this specific product.
$1300 plus change...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Compact-Line-Array-Package-3x10-Subwoofer-Pair-of-2x5-Speakers-and-Two-Frames-/141402882406?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Speakers_Monitors&hash=item20ec44c166
This (sincerely) is not a slam to those who are, in earnest, preaching to the choir. We need an actual review; not conjecture.
Thanks Y'all,
Dennis
It would be nice to see an actual review, however...
To define "forum":
"a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged."
The conjecturing and bantering is great! I've learned a lot from these!
-
What makes that more intelligible?
There are a lot of things that make a sound more intelligible-but "getting more freq into the horn" is not one I am aware of.
Now having a horn that is LARGE enough to CONTROL the freq is a good step in the right direction.
Unless there is something I am missing here.
My point was simply that having the bulk of the frequencies coming from a part of the speaker that is in essence not a horn ( which will have a somewhat omni pattern ) will smear all over the walls in a lively room. Nothing more, nothing less. Having more frequencies in a horn, be it a horn loaded speaker, or a properly designed CD horn for a conventional/line array box, should net higher intelligibility. I will not argue about what makes a speaker tick with you. I am certain we know who has that one licked :) From my knowledge though, an LA speaker will have issues with such a high crossover point. The specs of the box in question does not mention if one of the drivers is crossed over at a different frequency to help with comb filtering. If both of the low drivers are running the same there will be issues with replicating frequencies up that high.
-
Also the lack of pattern data and the general hype with no fact PR application oriented marketing make it hard to see as a serious effort.
The people that buy these don't read specs anyway. If they are loud they are going to be happy. Reality doesn't matter. You can't even talk to them. I have approached guys pushing cheap cabinets into audible distress. I used all the diplomacy and professional detachment I could muster and have never gotten anywhere.
The people that buy these things just are not trained. It's a viscous cycle. The folks that know what they are doing forced to operate this gear do the best they can and get all they can get out of what they hear.
Being a capitalist I can't fault a company for filling a niche. Let's be honest people are going to buy these things, probably on credit, it will be the purchase of a lifetime. When you have emotion in play reason goes out the window.
We all love gear but hopefully can be objective.
-
My point was simply that having the bulk of the frequencies coming from a part of the speaker that is in essence not a horn ( which will have a somewhat omni pattern ) will smear all over the walls in a lively room. Nothing more, nothing less.
Regular speaker do get directional as the freq goes up. The larger speakers get mroe directional at a given freq than smaller ones do.
Hence the problem of using a 15" and horn in most cases. The 15" starts to beam before the horn takes over-causing a Christmas tree effect in the coverage pattern.
A horn can be pretty omni also-if it is not LARGE enough. Something most people jus simply want to forget or ignore.
It takes SIZE to have pattern control. And the lower the freq the larger the size has to be. And the narrower the pattern (at a given freq) the larger the horn has to be.
It is truly sad-but MANY PA speakers only have their rated patterns in the top couple of octaves and not down where it really matters for intelligibility.
But that makes for a smaller-lighter box-cheaper box and the general public "thinks" they are getting something that they are not.
-
/snip
It is truly sad-but MANY PA speakers only have their rated patterns in the top couple of octaves and not down where it really matters for intelligibility.
But that makes for a smaller-lighter box-cheaper box and the general public "thinks" they are getting something that they are not.
"Specifications subject to change" = "we reserve the right to de-rate anything you call is out on... If we don't change drivers first"
Aimed at no one in particular.
-
Also the lack of pattern data and the general hype with no fact PR application oriented marketing make it hard to see as a serious effort.
The people that buy these don't read specs anyway. If they are loud they are going to be happy. Reality doesn't matter. You can't even talk to them. I have approached guys pushing cheap cabinets into audible distress. I used all the diplomacy and professional detachment I could muster and have never gotten anywhere.
The people that buy these things just are not trained. It's a viscous cycle. The folks that know what they are doing forced to operate this gear do the best they can and get all they can get out of what they hear.
Being a capitalist I can't fault a company for filling a niche. Let's be honest people are going to buy these things,
We all know this and live with it everyday, but nobody wants to pin the blame of all the bad audio practiced around us everywhere (and IMHO outnumbers instances of "good" audio) squarely and definitely on the manufacturers, their shareholders and the boards of directors (who usually have never done audio ever) and their insatiable race-to-the-bottom pricing and quarterly demand for increased sales.
Sorry to be a "Negative Nancy" but I'm sitting here listening at our town's only bar&restaurant to their "new" Bose system with a blown subs and grossly overdriven amp -after they trashed a rather decent 90's era Yamaha system with nothing really wrong with it (other than it not being new/shiny)
-
Ok, how long anybody been in this business
-
Give this people a chance, you guys remember Carver amps or the word Phase Linear mean anything to anybody here o I forgot you guys come from beings graduates of MIT so that is why you guys are bashing on this company, people used to talk bad about Adamson and look at the position they are now, also look at DAS audio consider Peavey in their country it takes time for the marketing to catch on
-
Give this people a chance, you guys remember Carver amps or the word Phase Linear mean anything to anybody here o I forgot you guys come from beings graduates of MIT so that is why you guys are bashing on this company, people used to talk bad about Adamson and look at the position they are now, also look at DAS audio consider Peavey in their country it takes time for the marketing to catch on
It would help if you followed the rules and used your real name or whatever you are tying to say will be deleted---------
-
Give this people a chance, you guys remember Carver amps or the word Phase Linear mean anything to anybody here o I forgot you guys come from beings graduates of MIT so that is why you guys are bashing on this company, people used to talk bad about Adamson and look at the position they are now, also look at DAS audio consider Peavey in their country it takes time for the marketing to catch on
Read the rules, fix your display name.
Thank you for your cooperation.
-
-snip- never mind