Ken Freeman wrote on Tue, 16 December 2008 23:55 |
I have attached a windscreen to mine with velcro so that when I drop it, it bounces |
Tom Young wrote on Wed, 17 December 2008 11:45 |
One of the problems with all plastic diaphragms is when they are exposed to higher temeratures (such as storage in a car trunk on a hot summer day), they stretch and then may not return to their previous state when back at cooler temperatures. So the frequency response changes. Even those diaphragms that are (pre) stretched (and possibly heat stretched) by the manufacturer may not be immune to this high-temperature condition. So I wonder how hot the inside of a shipping container gets when exposed to direct sunlight on the container ship from China and/or waiting in either port ? |
Art Welter wrote on Wed, 17 December 2008 18:30 |
Since I only have, and only tested one of these mics, I would not want to say they all are that bad, but I bet they are not particularly consistent unit to unit.. |
Christopher Wintz wrote on Wed, 17 December 2008 19:37 |
Edit: What do you guys think about the Lectroacoustics wireless test system? It seems kinda gimmicy to me. Does putting a wireless device in the single path really change the frequancy response THAT much? I mean I know it's going to add a little color, but really? Is there a dynamic issue at play that I've never heard of (compression during a-d/d-a convertsion...?...)? |
Arthur Skudra wrote on Thu, 18 December 2008 00:15 | ||
In addition to a flat frequency response, linearity of the measurement signal is very important for making accurate measurements of sound systems using software such as Smaart. As a side benefit, the Lectrosonics wireless is flat down to 40 Hz, most other wireless systems don't go that low. If you do many large venues, the TM400 can prove to be invaluable! |
Arthur Skudra wrote on Thu, 18 December 2008 00:15 | ||
In addition to a flat frequency response, linearity of the measurement signal is very important for making accurate measurements of sound systems using software such as Smaart. As a side benefit, the Lectrosonics wireless is flat down to 40 Hz, most other wireless systems don't go that low. If you do many large venues, the TM400 can prove to be invaluable! |
Mac Kerr wrote on Wed, 17 December 2008 11:55 |
I just took the opportunity to check my rather old, well traveled TC30k against a fairly new well cared for M30, and an Audix T40. This was done at about 8' from an L'Acoustics 108. Relative to the M30 my mic had a falling response starting at about 1k that put it down about 2dB at 20k. All the little system response dips tracked perfectly between the two mics. The Audix had a rising response relative to the M30 that put it about 4dB high at 20k, with a sharp rise above about 8k. When I can, I will send my mic in for service, but I am still fairly confident in its performance. I pack it in a plastic tube with foam ends, then in my tool bag, which goes in my suitcase, which goes in the belly of the plane many times a year. So far so good. Mac |
Adam Robinson wrote on Mon, 22 December 2008 14:53 |
I own a TR40 and when I tested it against others, I did not have the same result. |
Tom Young wrote on Tue, 23 December 2008 06:35 |
"So as much as I love to use Beringer as a punch line I will have to hold back some times and go with my old standby: Bose." I actually tried their measurement mic. If you ignore the phase response that results from the 4 front-aimed capsules and the one rear-aimed capsule.... they are not that bad. But make sure you use their preamp or the frequency response will be restricted to 160Hz-7kHz. |
Bob McCarthy wrote on Mon, 22 December 2008 15:26 |
I own 8 Earthwoks M30s. They are sufficient for my needs, although I probably would have bought DPA 4090 series mics had they been on the market at the time I bought mine. They are now 5 years old. 2 of them will go back for rework shortly. They drift in level over time and as a result I calibrate them at every job. I never do any work with a single mic so for me relative level and freq response are more critical parameters than absolute freq response. As for the earlier question re the B&K calibrator - it SHOULD work with the M30 adaptor. Calibrators are made to a standard and different mics have a specific adaptor mechanism to fit that. Finally, at a recent SIM school in Germany a guy pulled out his Beringer mic and we compared it to the DPA 4007 using a dual mic transfer function. Everyone was prepared for a big laugh but the 25 cent mic did very well (this is the second time I have seen this so I was not too shocked.) So as much as I love to use Beringer as a punch line I will have to hold back some times and go with my old standby: Bose. |
Tom Young wrote on Tue, 23 December 2008 06:35 |
"So as much as I love to use Beringer as a punch line I will have to hold back some times and go with my old standby: Bose." I actually tried their measurement mic. If you ignore the phase response that results from the 4 front-aimed capsules and the one rear-aimed capsule.... they are not that bad. But make sure you use their preamp or the frequency response will be restricted to 160Hz-7kHz. |
Kent Clasen wrote on Wed, 24 December 2008 09:14 |
While I haven't compared mics myself, I use the Audix TR40 and have a handful of the Superlux for multi mic measurement, where I am mostly looking at relative changes in different areas. An interesting note, I don't know if it was already discussed, I didn't read every post. Pat Brown compared measurement mics in his VOL36 Aug 08 newsletter. He found the angle of incidence to have a major impact on the mics. He lists several mics and the recommended angle. He found a 10dB frequency response deviation using the same angle on every mic, but when using the proper incidence angle, only 2dB diff! Some angles where 0, 45, and 90 degrees depending on which microphone you are using. DPA, Earthworks, Soundfirst were some he tested. |
Bob McCarthy wrote on Mon, 22 December 2008 16:26 |
I own 8 Earthwoks M30s. They are sufficient for my needs, although I probably would have bought DPA 4090 series mics had they been on the market at the time I bought mine. They are now 5 years old. 2 of them will go back for rework shortly. They drift in level over time and as a result I calibrate them at every job. I never do any work with a single mic so for me relative level and freq response are more critical parameters than absolute freq response. As for the earlier question re the B&K calibrator - it SHOULD work with the M30 adaptor. Calibrators are made to a standard and different mics have a specific adaptor mechanism to fit that. Finally, at a recent SIM school in Germany a guy pulled out his Beringer mic and we compared it to the DPA 4007 using a dual mic transfer function. Everyone was prepared for a big laugh but the 25 cent mic did very well (this is the second time I have seen this so I was not too shocked.) So as much as I love to use Beringer as a punch line I will have to hold back some times and go with my old standby: Bose. |
Tom Young wrote on Wed, 24 December 2008 22:46 |
"I guess they're not truly omnidirectional then" Absolutely not. No mic is. How does a mic remain omnidirectional when the mic (diaphragm) is turned to the point that direct sound does not strike it or even move it at higher frequencies where diffraction cannot occur ? But the better designed and more expensive mic's have more even off-axis response, which is very audible in listening (when you use them for recording or sound reinforcement) and obviously has an effect when used for measurements. If microphones (any and all) were measured and the data was provided to us at/with the level of detail that most professional loudspeakers are ..... I think we'd all be a bit surprised and possibly dismayed. |
Mac Kerr wrote on Mon, 22 December 2008 14:19 | ||
Against what others? All mics will vary slightly, even 2 brand new mics of the same type. I did this test because I found that with 3 different speaker systems, dv-DOSC mains, VRX932 delays, and 108P front fills I was making very similar eq changes. I asked for the other mics to check to see if there was an issue with my measurement mic. While it is down in level it is not grossly different from the other Earthworks, so I remain fairly confident in its output. As I said, I will still get it checked at the factory, but I don't feel the differences in the 2 mics greatly effected the alignment of my system. Final tweaking was done by walking and listening to the transitions between zones and the overall coverage of the room. Mac |
Bennett Prescott wrote on Wed, 17 December 2008 17:59 |
I see he now offers the SF-111, which is even better for less than twice the money! |
Christopher Wintz wrote on Thu, 01 January 2009 18:29 |
How would you compensate for this while using a mic calibrator, do you need to? |
Christopher Wintz wrote on Thu, 01 January 2009 17:29 |
Not to beat a dead horse, but I have more questions about measurement mics. I picked up a Beyerdynamic MM1 the other day. Not the greatest mic on the market, but it was well within my price range and it looks like it will be a good performer. In the spec booklet it mentions an energy build up that can accour in front of the mic at 10+KHz, if the make is facing directly towards the source, thus throwing off the frequancy response and creating some phase issues. Which makes sense as the wavelangth would then be smaller then the diameter of the mic. Two questions: Are all mics susceptible to this? (And that all measurement mics should be perpendicular to the source during measurement...) How would you compensate for this while using a mic calibrator, do you need to? |
Arthur Skudra wrote on Fri, 02 January 2009 12:48 |
Pat Brown did an article recently (Vol 36 August 2008) comparing the response of several different measurement microphones at different angles....He found that the Earthworks M30 has the flattest response at 90 degrees! |
Arthur Skudra wrote on Sat, 03 January 2009 12:06 |
If we are willing to accept cheaper measurement microphones for live sound reinforcement optimization that may deviate in response above say 10 kHz as an acceptable alternative to the more expensive ones (that are ruler flat smooth up to 20, 30, or even 40 kHz), does measurement angle (of which deviates the most above 10 kHz) really matter that much? |
Quote: |
How often do you find yourself tweaking a sound reinforcement system above 10 kHz? |
Charlie Jeal wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 20:26 |
JR, While your on this thread I wonder if you can shed any light on this Peavey ERO 10 measurement mic? its got the AMR branding on the mic and I know you were involved in that group at Peavey. Charlie |
Charlie Jeal wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 20:53 |
Thanks for that JR, Looks like the TR40 will have to earns its living a while longer then, although I'm pretty sure I can always find a use for the ERO 10. Charlie |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Sat, 10 January 2009 02:48 |
Peavey needed a measurement mic when they started selling their early digitally controlled analog graphic EQ, so the ERO-10 got drafted, painted black, and presto it was a Peavey measurement mic.. I think the Peavey model had a different name (PV....something). |
Nick Hickman wrote on Sat, 10 January 2009 06:01 | ||
Was it the PVR1? The Peavey PVR2 is still available. From the way it and its packaging look, one would guess it originates from the same place as the Behringer ECM8000. I compared my PVR2 against my M30: Nick |
Charlie Jeal wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 22:02 |
Once I'm back to full working capacity when the hernias fixed I'll go buy another M30 to replace my currently banana shaped one, some idiot dropped my bag over a 20' balcony and the rest of the contents bent it a little. Of course as usual no-one knew who it was that did it so I'm left with the cost so the back up TR40 will have to do. |
Tom Young wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 18:38 |
When Bruel & Kjaer, Neumann and others employ "sputtered gold" diaphragms, what is the substrate ? |
Josh Evans wrote on Wed, 24 December 2008 14:31 |
I have two of the mic cases as well. |
Andy Peters wrote on Sat, 10 January 2009 18:44 | ||
As a rule, my microphones live in their own gig bag, and nobody but me touches that bag. We were met by loaders at the front door of the theatre on New Year's Eve. They asked if we had any audio gear which they were required by contract to hump. I said, "Nope, nothing but baby stuff!" which they immediately understood once I took the kid out of the car. The nondescript mic bag was babied. -a |
Charlie Jeal wrote on Sat, 10 January 2009 17:10 |
Harry I wish the shipping rates to the UK weren't quite so silly though, or at least the ones the website quotes anyway. Charlie |
HarryBrillJr. wrote on Sat, 10 January 2009 22:06 |
Yea but they are cheaper from Rational Acoustics and have a fancy RA logo on them too. |
Ray A. Rayburn wrote on Sat, 10 January 2009 23:45 | ||
I provided the link to Cigar Caddy since they are the manufacturer. However if you Google the item you will find cigar places selling them for as little as $13 - 15. No matter who you buy it from, it is a good quality case that fits most measurement mics perfectly. |
Mac Kerr wrote on Sat, 10 January 2009 22:52 |
What is the inside dimension of these? It looks too small for my TC30K. |
Mac Kerr wrote on Sat, 10 January 2009 22:52 | ||||
Here is one under $12. What is the inside dimension of these? It looks too small for my TC30K. Mac |
Steve Bunting wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 05:56 |
Has anyone got any experience with the Earthworks M23, or the S30 which Rational sells? Is this the same mic with different names? How do they compare to an M30? |
Bob McCarthy wrote on Mon, 22 December 2008 15:26 |
I own 8 Earthwoks M30s. They are sufficient for my needs, although I probably would have bought DPA 4090 series mics had they been on the market at the time I bought mine. |
Brandon G Romanowski wrote on Tue, 09 February 2010 16:25 |
Has anyone heard about a new Audix measurement mic? |
Andy Peters wrote on Tue, 09 February 2010 18:26 |
...I was told by the Audix test engineer with whom I dealt that they were working on a new measurement mic that was supposed to be as good as the Earthworks 30 but for less money.... -a |
Andy Peters wrote on Tue, 09 February 2010 18:26 | ||
After I sent my two TR40s in for test (April of last year), I was told by the Audix test engineer with whom I dealt that they were working on a new measurement mic that was supposed to be as good as the Earthworks 30 but for less money. He said he hoped that it would be released in about six months but otherwise made no guarantees. Obviously it is not ready for prime time. -a |
Grant Conklin wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 20:31[/color |
And here's another gem I haven't heard anyone else talking about. The Avantone AK-Type VII. Sports a nickel diaphragm (I only know because I asked) and sells for $499. Sweet. http://www.avantelectronics.com/AK-Type%20VII.htm Grant |
Tamas Tako wrote on Fri, 05 March 2010 15:57 |
Hi all, I dot know if anyone mentioned it before or not. My favorite measuring mic is (and its also quite affordable) the one what comes with the Klark DN6000 analyser. It also can be ordered as a mic alone. it is dead flat, and it always comes with a measured response graph (measured with B&K equipment) any toughts? Thanks, Tamas |
Bob McCarthy wrote on Mon, 22 December 2008 16:26 |
I own 8 Earthwoks M30s. They are sufficient for my needs, although I probably would have bought DPA 4090 series mics had they been on the market at the time I bought mine. They are now 5 years old. 2 of them will go back for rework shortly. They drift in level over time and as a result I calibrate them at every job. |
Bob McCarthy wrote on Mon, 22 December 2008 16:26 |
I never do any work with a single mic so for me relative level and freq response are more critical parameters than absolute freq response. |
Bob McCarthy wrote on Mon, 22 December 2008 16:26 |
As for the earlier question re the B&K calibrator - it SHOULD work with the M30 adaptor. Calibrators are made to a standard and different mics have a specific adaptor mechanism to fit that. Finally, at a recent SIM school in Germany a guy pulled out his Beringer mic and we compared it to the DPA 4007 using a dual mic transfer function. Everyone was prepared for a big laugh but the 25 cent mic did very well (this is the second time I have seen this so I was not too shocked.) So as much as I love to use Beringer as a punch line I will have to hold back some times and go with my old standby: Bose. |
Too Tall (Curtis H. List) wrote on Fri, 05 March 2010 22:50 |
Where I would worry (other then drift over time) is how consistent is it off axis. This should depend on the physical size and shape of the mic body, correct? |
Tom Young wrote on Sat, 06 March 2010 00:45 |
...I queried Avant Electronics and they said: "Thanks so much for the email & interest in the AK-Type Vii. It would probably be a very nice measurement mic for you although we don't lay claim to it as such..." |
Quote: |
That's weird. It seems to have everything you'd want in a measurement mic, and they claim it's "compared directly to the very finest European omni reference mics.... used for critical acoustical calibration measurements and testing... Complies with IEC651 TYPE 1 STANDARDS... Free-field Microphone (calibration grade)... " But they don't claim it to be a measurement mic? |
Grant Conklin wrote on Sat, 06 March 2010 01:27 | ||
That's weird. It seems to have everything you'd want in a measurement mic, and they claim it's "compared directly to the very finest European omni reference mics.... used for critical acoustical calibration measurements and testing... Complies with IEC651 TYPE 1 STANDARDS... Free-field Microphone (calibration grade)... " |
Bob McCarthy wrote on Fri, 05 March 2010 17:38 |
My SIM3 has level deviation compensation and that is good up to a point............. and the point is that some of my aged (7 years and many miles) mics don't reliably hold their sensitivity steady overnight. At this point my confidence level is less than perfect - and therefore I do a daily calibration. I would never (and have never) dialed in sensitivity numbers of multiple based on what they say on the box. That is just a 1 kHz spec. Too loose. I match multiple mic levels based on as wide a freq range as possible. |
Since this thread is a few years old and I'm about to purchase a few mics in the $600-$700 range which mic would give best to work with Smaart?
What kind of work are you doing that you need that many mics of that quality? If you are a speaker designer doing critical measurements as part of the design process, or if you are doing installations that require that the measurements use type 1 measurement mics you will want mics of at least that level, probably significantly more expensive.
If you are doing system alignment and eq on touring systems you do not need multiples of that level of microphone. I have one Earthworks mic, and 3 Rational Acoustics mics. That's one at the $500 level, and three at the $80 level. Currently RA has an introductory offer on the ISEMcon EMX-7150 (http://www.rationalacoustics.com/store/microphones/isemcon-emx-7150.html) which is a very good value.
There are lots of useful mics available from the low of the RA 420 at $80, to several thousand dollars. It will be easier to recommend one if you give some guidance on how you intend to use it. The price range it may fall in should be a result of a search for a mic that fulfills a functional spec, not the other way around.
Mac
Mac,
I will be doing system alignments and eq on fixed and mobile systems.
Johnny
AFAIK, the Lectrosonics TM400 is the only wireless currently available that is suitable for test and measurement.
If you plan on doing multi mic setups, get 1 real good mic, and a few lesser mics. The differences between the great mics and the less great mics generally fall above 10kHz where we do very little in the way of system eq.
We cant buy the Lectro stuff in the UK, so its pretty much the only option for us.
I like the Beyerdynamic, but I havnt found an adaptor for pistonphones.
Actually, the Line6 V70 system is perfect for test & measurement. It operates in 2.4Ghz, so best use 5ghz for your wireless control applications. But its virtually as flat as a piece of wire (verified on the workbench) and has negligible latency (again, easily measured and compensated for).
The downside is that its designed for lav mics so you need to use a mic that is internally powered (A-la NTI MiniSPL mic) or a little inline PSU, but its a steal for £350!
We cant buy the Lectro stuff in the UK, so its pretty much the only option for us.
Chris
Just to be clear, I recently purchased a DBX Drive Rack 260. Will a Behringer ECM8000 be good enough to do basic RTAing in small bar gigs? As it costs half as much as the DBX mic? Thanks.