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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Ed Taylor on July 31, 2020, 02:41:03 PM
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really, looking to see thoughts on Small, Med, Large ...again, semi-pro rigs
now, can of worms on this of course would be that we keep a good variety of gear so that, for example, I might take on a small regional ComicCon event which has a main stage, and 3 breakout rooms at the hotel (yes, actually have done this).
so we're talking couple speakers on sticks, small analog mixers per room and then a larger console and speakers for main hall.
none of these rigs goes beyond what I think we'd consider small PA, and yet it takes a mid sized audio company to be able to place that many rigs at a venue.
So I'm bucketing "small" as 2 speakers on a stick for guitar dude on a stool type work, maybe add a wedge.
medium for me is my main rig which I don't consider an outdoor capable rig beyond small town pavillion work.
We run 24chx8 digital and while most of our ball-room type venues only need 1 per side, we can double up..so (2)3-way mains and (2)subs per side (15s or 18s)
We can wedge as many as they want or provide for up to 8 IEMs
I have a backup 24ch console, so technically I could chain em for 48, but then I'd have no backup.
and there's still old analog 32ch and a small outboard rack that haven't seen daylight in a number of years.. just not worth anything on the street, but somehow it gives me peace of mind that I might have a fallback on a really bad day (grin)
I've honestly not wanted to get any larger than this, and as I've said, most of my full band work never really calls for more than 1 per side boxes.
and the better net profit jobs over the past couple years were the high end smaller things..corporate etc..where transparent background sound from my Bose units was all the client actually wanted..jazz trio, etc in the corner, talking heads...and if source tracks needed more, then the bose compacts sit on top of EV zxa 12" subs.
so I'm curious,for most of your work...where do you guys consider your rig a fit?
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really, looking to see thoughts on Small, Med, Large ...again, semi-pro rigs
To me:
Small is 2 S-o-S, maybe a sub and/or wedge
Mid may be 2 Tops and adequate Subbage per side
Large, for me, has more to do with complexity (i.e. delays, flown or towered tops, separate FOH and Monitor consoles, etc.). I'm comfortable providing 8 x 18" per side and matching 2 or 3 way trap boxes (don't have a line array at this time), eight separate biamped monitor mixes plus triamped side/drum fill.
If the event requires more than 32 inputs, I have to improvise.
Dave
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My approach is similar to yours Ed, I have no intentions of going any bigger than what's typically considered "medium" setups. I use all QSC self-powered speakers & build each system appropriately for each application.
Simplest setup was for an MC at a fundraiser for a horse-rescue, brought the little 2-channel Yamaha mixer, a K8.2 for the sitting area and two K12.2's for the field. One wireless mic.
I bring a small setup for a local restaurant's outdoor stage, two KW122's on sticks, one sub, four monitors, 16-channel digital mixer side-stage & mix with an ipad.
There's another restaurant in the same chain about an hour away that I haul the 12.2's and a cardioid sub & however many K8.2's I might need, the promoter brings his own K12's (out-fills) and a pair of K10's to supplement the setup so I don't have to haul too much. That was almost weekly last year, Dave G from this board works lights for that series.
My summer series has the biggest and most complex setup, typically ~45 shows a year with two stages (only one is ever used at a time) - small one gets a small but well equipped setup, big one is the beast, large outdoor stage with a main concert direction and "VIP" seating off to the sides. Two cardioid subs and four KLA's for the dance-floor, two KW122's per side for the out-fills, three delay boxes down the Stage-Left side because the stage covering muffles the out-fills on that side beyond 30' or so and there is a LOT of seating far away from the stage, 32-channel digital on Stage Right, 32-channel stagebox for the tidy-stage, and a bunch of KW122's for monitors. Cover bands with huge draws all summer, outdoor mall, owner pays for it all and pays us well (I always have 2 people working that one because of the complexity, though I did it myself a couple of times last year when I couldn't find an A2) and lets us eat on the band's tab at a nice restaurant after each show. All gear is stored on-site all summer, freaking great gig (except this year).
I have no intentions of going bigger, just better over time.
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really, looking to see thoughts on Small, Med, Large ...again, semi-pro rigs
now, can of worms on this of course would be that we keep a good variety of gear so that, for example, I might take on a small regional ComicCon event which has a main stage, and 3 breakout rooms at the hotel (yes, actually have done this).
so we're talking couple speakers on sticks, small analog mixers per room and then a larger console and speakers for main hall.
none of these rigs goes beyond what I think we'd consider small PA, and yet it takes a mid sized audio company to be able to place that many rigs at a venue.
So I'm bucketing "small" as 2 speakers on a stick for guitar dude on a stool type work, maybe add a wedge.
medium for me is my main rig which I don't consider an outdoor capable rig beyond small town pavillion work.
We run 24chx8 digital and while most of our ball-room type venues only need 1 per side, we can double up..so (2)3-way mains and (2)subs per side (15s or 18s)
We can wedge as many as they want or provide for up to 8 IEMs
I have a backup 24ch console, so technically I could chain em for 48, but then I'd have no backup.
and there's still old analog 32ch and a small outboard rack that haven't seen daylight in a number of years.. just not worth anything on the street, but somehow it gives me peace of mind that I might have a fallback on a really bad day (grin)
I've honestly not wanted to get any larger than this, and as I've said, most of my full band work never really calls for more than 1 per side boxes.
and the better net profit jobs over the past couple years were the high end smaller things..corporate etc..where transparent background sound from my Bose units was all the client actually wanted..jazz trio, etc in the corner, talking heads...and if source tracks needed more, then the bose compacts sit on top of EV zxa 12" subs.
so I'm curious,for most of your work...where do you guys consider your rig a fit?
Depends on context. To me (and many others), enough for 1500-3000ish.
As always, it depends.
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really, looking to see thoughts on Small, Med, Large ...again, semi-pro rigs
now, can of worms on this of course would be that we keep a good variety of gear so that, for example, I might take on a small regional ComicCon event which has a main stage, and 3 breakout rooms at the hotel (yes, actually have done this).
so we're talking couple speakers on sticks, small analog mixers per room and then a larger console and speakers for main hall.
none of these rigs goes beyond what I think we'd consider small PA, and yet it takes a mid sized audio company to be able to place that many rigs at a venue.
So I'm bucketing "small" as 2 speakers on a stick for guitar dude on a stool type work, maybe add a wedge.
medium for me is my main rig which I don't consider an outdoor capable rig beyond small town pavillion work.
We run 24chx8 digital and while most of our ball-room type venues only need 1 per side, we can double up..so (2)3-way mains and (2)subs per side (15s or 18s)
We can wedge as many as they want or provide for up to 8 IEMs
I have a backup 24ch console, so technically I could chain em for 48, but then I'd have no backup.
and there's still old analog 32ch and a small outboard rack that haven't seen daylight in a number of years.. just not worth anything on the street, but somehow it gives me peace of mind that I might have a fallback on a really bad day (grin)
I've honestly not wanted to get any larger than this, and as I've said, most of my full band work never really calls for more than 1 per side boxes.
and the better net profit jobs over the past couple years were the high end smaller things..corporate etc..where transparent background sound from my Bose units was all the client actually wanted..jazz trio, etc in the corner, talking heads...and if source tracks needed more, then the bose compacts sit on top of EV zxa 12" subs.
so I'm curious,for most of your work...where do you guys consider your rig a fit?
Hmm never used the value meal naming convention, this is what we use as to our Great Lakes competitors so we can sub for each other. Within each category are sm/med/large
Club rig - Simple SoS, usually dual subs, wifi control or stageside wifi capable mizer. less than 6 monitor mixes
Wedding/private gigs -
Most important in this category is it's your cleanest gear. System depends on venue. At several event venues they have points so we can fly a small rig. DB T4/T8, FBT Mitus/QA, One competitor brings Vue AL4's and another D&B Q1&B2's -
The column arrays are in this category too.
For groundstack systems we use KW153's over KW181 (up to 6 a side) our HK projector (horn loaded 6 cabinets a side), competitors ground stack small line arrays like VRX and those fancy guys at 8th day bring out D&B C7's
Then you get into small paying concerts, which can be at clubs, amphitheaters, sheds, etc. and we use Genies with various line arrays, the aforementioned ground stacked rigs or if venue has provisions we fly the appropriate about of cabinets.
The next step up is large venues.
This isn't as clear as I thought it was but what I was trying to say is club system (which most companies don't bother with), privates, corporate and concerts. The rig you spec is driven by the venue and format of the performance/presentation.
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Small: 1 or 2 DXR12 SOS. Maybe subs.
Tweener : 2 DSR12 over subs SOS
Mid: SM80 over Th118 (2 or 4).
This rig works for Street fairs and some DJ work.
I have no interest in anything bigger.
I make more renting my stages anyway.
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Hmm never used the value meal naming convention...
That's funny! I also say that small/medium/large is too much dependent on context to be a one-size-fits all from an equipment selection perspective, but here's how I break things down from a business/logistics/pricing perspective:
Small - I can wrangle the system and gig myself with a single utility van.
Medium - Me plus one or two assistants and a box truck.
Large - I need to hire an entire crew of varying skill levels with multiple trucks to make the job happen, including the delegation of decision making authority to senior crew members who can hold their own.
Typically this also coincides with the amount/quality/capability of the equipment we're using, but not always. Hope this helps!
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I think of it as how much venue can the rig serve. Small would be 500-800 people indoors. Medium would be 1000-2000, maybe outdoors. Large would be anything above that, usually outdoors, usually requires a real truck or two.
The rigs would be spec'ed to provide adaquate coverage and volume for whatever the gig needs. 800 folks indoors at a thrash metal show is a different rig from 1500 outdoors folk festival.
The smart play is to buy into a system that can scale from SoS all the way up to flown off a truss roof. You may end up using your "small" mains as front fills for your big boy PA. But if it's all from the same eco-system it looks and feels "pro" to both the client and the guest engineers.
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The smart play is to buy into a system that can scale from SoS all the way up to flown off a truss roof. You may end up using your "small" mains as front fills for your big boy PA. But if it's all from the same eco-system it looks and feels "pro" to both the client and the guest engineers.
Yep. That's why these small "vertical" array elements make SO much sense.
Scalability = chance for profit. Who cares if it's not a "real line array" when you can strap a couple or three to a sub, cover your small event, then build a 12 deep tomorrow for a party in a field for 2000 people?
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I have a medium non flown rig. 16-18" woofers. 8-12" mids. 8 giant 2" throat DDS 60x40 horns. QSC series 3 amps totaling 37200 available watts of power. And my dream board a Midas Heritage 2000 48 channel. I also have a small Yamaha 24 channel board, Mackie 16 channel board, and 2 AH 16 channel boards. I dont have to use all the speakers and amps. I can just use 2-18" woofers, 4-12" mids and 2 horns. So technically the question of what is a small , medium , and large PA depends on "how much" equipment do you have. If I add more speakers and amps I can have a huge PA available if needed. I dont always use everything. Depends on the size of place and the size of the crowd. Its better to have too much and not use some then not enough and ......... !
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On my menu:
Mini (acoustic) - RCF310s with a single RCF ART800as sub (Yamaha MGx 4ch mixer)
Small (bar) - DSR112s over SRX718s (X32 rack)
Medium (club) - JTR Noesis 3TX over SRX728s (X32 rack)
Large - call my buddy Jim Roese from RPM productions (which happens once in a blue moon)
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On my menu:
Mini (acoustic) - RCF310s with a single RCF ART800as sub (Yamaha MGx 4ch mixer)
Small (bar) - DSR112s over SRX718s (X32 rack)
Medium (club) - JTR Noesis 3TX over SRX728s (X32 rack)
Large - call my buddy Jim Roese from RPM productions (which happens once in a blue moon)
I see the lil Yamaha 12s showing up on a lot more conversations..not to get off topic, but for those small SOS/sub gigs, are you happy with the DSR series? vs QSC K12s for example? Again, not DJ, more live band stuff. thanks
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I see the lil Yamaha 12s showing up on a lot more conversations..not to get off topic, but for those small SOS/sub gigs, are you happy with the DSR series? vs QSC K12s for example? Again, not DJ, more live band stuff. thanks
Nope. I prefer 3-way boxes or more expensive 2-way boxes.
2-way boxes in that price range doesn't sound pleasing to my ear.
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I see the lil Yamaha 12s showing up on a lot more conversations..not to get off topic, but for those small SOS/sub gigs, are you happy with the DSR series? vs QSC K12s for example? Again, not DJ, more live band stuff. thanks
Vs the K12s for example (which I have owned) - absolutely prefer the DSR.
DSR get a lot of love for good reason. Really clean and clear small box.
Over a set of single 18 subs, or a single dual 18 sub, they create an outstanding compact system.
For smaller rooms, I haven't found anything better (but I have not tried any $2k+ boxes like the RCF TT).
I have GAS for new gear and have tried a ton of 12" boxes. Since having the DSR, I've been happy and haven't thought about changing.
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The smart play is to buy into a system that can scale from SoS all the way up to flown off a truss roof. You may end up using your "small" mains as front fills for your big boy PA. But if it's all from the same eco-system it looks and feels "pro" to both the client and the guest engineers.
Yep. That's why these small "vertical" array elements make SO much sense.
Scalability = chance for profit. Who cares if it's not a "real line array" when you can strap a couple or three to a sub, cover your small event, then build a 12 deep tomorrow for a party in a field for 2000 people?
I've been preaching this exact idea of "system scalability" for years. The small SOS boxes should be a great ROI source on their own, yet be able to play nice and be deployed as front fills for the large system. Every box (within reason) should be independent and complimentary to everything else in the inventory, and it's the ideal that we've built on for over a decade. We have a small handful of boxes for dry hire that don't play into this theory, but everything else is a building block of some sort.
Re: OP's original question:
That's a bit of a loaded question. Usually if we're into chain hoists and PDs we're into "large" territory. Small is SOS or a small ground stack per side. Can it all fit into a sprinter van? Small to medium. Truck? Medium to large. Semi? Large.
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I see the lil Yamaha 12s showing up on a lot more conversations..not to get off topic, but for those small SOS/sub gigs, are you happy with the DSR series? vs QSC K12s for example? Again, not DJ, more live band stuff. thanks
The DSR112's were recently discontinued, but are a very popular box on this forum. For their price point (sub $1k when they were selling new, prob still some stock out there), you won't find anything that gets louder and still sounds good doing it. Unless it is spoken word only, these boxes absolutely require subs. I've used them for small events both indoors and out (bands, not DJ) and almost always get unsolicited praise from attendees on the sound quality. And when the gigs get bigger, the DSR112's make great monitors.
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Hmmm. I kind of like Brian's truck analogy.
I look at covering the audience area (and any special VIP locations) first, then pick products based on the program material and the expectations that creates.
If I'm doing spoken word with occasional playback the audience/client expectations are different from doing a Metallica tribute act *regardless of venue size*. Genre determines SPL and spectral distribution so what might be thought of as a "medium" system for one style might be a Size Small for anther style... or vast overkill for yet another.
It DependsŪ
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That's a bit of a loaded question. Usually if we're into chain hoists and PDs we're into "large" territory. Small is SOS or a small ground stack per side. Can it all fit into a sprinter van? Small to medium. Truck? Medium to large. Semi? Large.
Brian has a good take on it.
If it fits in my car, it's SOS and a couple of mics, 1 or 2 wedges, and not much more.
1-Ton van gets Small, 500 ppl or less
1-Ton Cube. small with over-the-top lighting, and medium (to me, medium is convention center and ballroom weddings and such, up to 2,000 ppl.)
26 foot starts the bigger stuff, up to 5-6,000 ppl.
Semi(s) for "real" shows.
Your results may vary - expected coverage and volume requirements, lighting package etc.
Medium to me is probably a drop in the bucket for many here...
Chris.
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On my menu:
Mini (acoustic) - RCF310s with a single RCF ART800as sub (Yamaha MGx 4ch mixer)
Small (bar) - DSR112s over SRX718s (X32 rack)
Medium (club) - JTR Noesis 3TX over SRX728s (X32 rack)
Large - call my buddy Jim Roese from RPM productions (which happens once in a blue moon)
I follow a similar pattern, but I designed my main speakers so they could get flat down to 60Hz or 44Hz, taking a hit on SPL.
It goes like this:
Mini: Just the mains, tuned lower and EQ'd. QSC TM16, couple of wedges
Small: Mains + 2x 15" subs, 80Hz crossover. QSC TM30, 4x wedges
Medium: Mains + lots of 15" subs, 120Hz crossover, QSC TM30, lots of wedges
Large: Rent in racks & stacks, use my mains as side-fills
Chris
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For the most we're all basically on similar pages.
Small is powered SOS, a couple of powered wedges and for most of us a lunch pail and tablet.
Med expands on that by adding 2 to 4 subs and maybe stepping up to a powered 3 way plus some SOS outfills - maybe. The same lunch pail and more monitors. In my case I'll add a pop up tent and and hardwired (ethernet/CAT5) connection to the mixer. In my case my surface is a touch screen Dell. 500 people, outside venue.
I top out at 4 La400's under up to 6 Renkus 3 way traps Ground stacked or subs under Bakers scaffold to support the tops. probably more monitors. Families in the park, 2 to 3k people. I may run my SI Impact and stage box but more often it will be networked UI-24r's if I'm mixing.
The other configuration I run is sports events. I (used to) provide for wind and water events along the columbia.
Some of those have a main stage plus a DJ and talking head tower plus strings of SOS. For that I'm running zones on delay from the main stage as the DJ and Talking Heads are distributed everytwhere.
Some of those are a small performance stage, an awards stage, a talking head platform all on SOS pairs. Plus a string of powered speakers along a wall above a beach area. I hate that as there is no local power so I have to run power and signal along the wall and bury it in the sand on the beach side. Major pita. For this year I had planned on adding in a few small inverter generators (Honda EU-2000, Yamaha, Subaru, etc) each to power pods of 4 speaks. Signal would have been distributed by MiPro wireless packs. Just as happy I did not make that investment last winter in my spending season...
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I think in terms of AC, which I think scales well with size...
Small: Extension cords with 1 or 2, 15/20 amp circuits
Medium: 60-100 amp distro.
Large: cam locks