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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Jerome Laux on March 22, 2016, 08:17:03 PM
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We have a small theatre (250 seats). We run a number of plays and concerts through it each year.
Concerts aren't a problem. We can provide the artists w/ microphone or DI hookups and they sound fine (when they aren't too loud).
The plays are sometimes an issue - some of the actors don't project very well.
The one major problem are children's programs. Some of the children don't project at all when speaking or singing. It would be nice to be able to hear them. We don't have the resources to be able to provide all of them with wireless microphones.
What sort of microphones could we set up before the stage?
Attached is a picture of the house set up for a concert.
As you can see it wouldn't be easy to fly any microphones.
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Pointing the speakers at the people instead of along the wall would make a huge improvement before you spend a dime.
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When I was a kid in grade school plays, the directors made darned sure we faced the audience and spoke right out.
Technical solutions should be WAY secondary. There's just no way anyone should have to bail out whoever is directing with "make-do" tech.
And in a beautiful, intimate theater like that you should not need any amplification.
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Pointing the speakers at the people instead of along the wall would make a huge improvement before you spend a dime.
Old picture - but it is what I had.
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Old picture - but it is what I had.
Ah ok...Sorry for the diversion
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A common theatrical technique is to use floor mics such as Crown PCC160's or the Bartlett Audio Stage Floor Mic on the downstage edge of the stage. Just make sure that people know that when using boundary mics, you will not get that up close micing sound.
~Dave
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A common theatrical technique is to use floor mics such as Crown PCC160's or the Bartlett Audio Stage Floor Mic on the downstage edge of the stage. Just make sure that people know that when using boundary mics, you will not get that up close micing sound.
~Dave
Boundary mics will NOT work for the OP. Period.
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only thing rhat will really work in my opinion: dpa 4066 or something like this.
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We don't have the resources to be able to provide all of them with wireless microphones.
Do you have ANY wireless bodypack systems at this point? If you do, this is an excellent mic at a throwaway price:
http://www.amazon.com/Pyle-Pro-PMEMS10-Omni-Directional-Microphone-System/dp/B003D2YRLA
If you can hit up the parents for sponsorship and donation, this is an excellent wireless system to go with the above mic:
http://www.amazon.com/Shure-PGXD14-Digital-Wireless-System/dp/B004K9RT8I
John R.
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When I was a kid in grade school plays, the directors made darned sure we faced the audience and spoke right out.
Technical solutions should be WAY secondary. There's just no way anyone should have to bail out whoever is directing with "make-do" tech.
And in a beautiful, intimate theater like that you should not need any amplification.
Dick is absolutely correct here. The kids need to come to the show prepared. The adults need to understand that kids can't always pull off what is needed. Fact of the matter is you can't beat physics. 2x0=0 no matter what mic you use.
One thing I've seen done successfully with church children's choirs is to use broken mics or mics from those 3 for $30 packs to teach kids how to hold and sing into a microphone. It must be part of their rehearsal process for their entire time rehearsing (months, not just when they show up at the theater) and the instructor must correct poor usage the same way he or she would correct vocal issues.
We all know mic technique is something which must be learned. The adults leading these kids need to learn that too. If they can't then you may as well try pulling a rabbit out of your ass. You'll have just as much success.
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Do you have ANY wireless bodypack systems at this point? If you do, this is an excellent mic at a throwaway price:
http://www.amazon.com/Pyle-Pro-PMEMS10-Omni-Directional-Microphone-System/dp/B003D2YRLA
If you can hit up the parents for sponsorship and donation, this is an excellent wireless system to go with the above mic:
http://www.amazon.com/Shure-PGXD14-Digital-Wireless-System/dp/B004K9RT8I
John R.
A work-around for limited wireless is to use one or more people as "human mic stands" by fitting them with a good lapel mic placed on their sleeve at the shoulder or on their collar BEHIND their head, then positioning them as needed in the scenes.
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Nothing really wrong with a real mic stand with an SM58 in most cases.
Usually these sorts of shows have each kid (or couple of kids) giving their one line, then stepping back into the chorus. I've never seen anybody object to them stepping up to a mic.
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The mains on either side behind the stage front line is an issue .
combined with any mic in front of shy children trying to get optimum gain will be...........not fun.
If they could be encouraged to use their "outside voices" with no monitor volume, most would do well .
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I don't post much here, but being that I've been employed with staging and reinforcement of elementary, middle school and high school productions for 20 years I thought I'd add my thoughts to the already excellent ones already shared. My question would be just exactly what type of children's shows are being done here? Are they plays, mini-musicals, skits, just music shows? Each one could have it's own little trick to obtaining better sound - there is not a blanket solution that would cover everything. Who are the directors of these performances, and what are their expectations? If they are putting on a 4th grade mini musical and expect it to sound like Les Mis on Broadway that would be your first major obstacle. Do they have a good handle on the limitations of the space and the kids and choose appropriate works to accommodate both? The toughest challenges I have ever had were working with directors who thought technical solutions would fix everything and make silk purses out of sow's ears so to speak. If they don't grasp picking shows and staging them so that it adds to the solution then the outcome will most always be less than desired. Granted, to most parents if their kid makes it through the show without puking onstage it will be just wonderful - but to those of us responsible for putting out a quality production it can be a frustrating thing.
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You need to remember one of the golden rules of mics and sound. The loudest sound at the mic wins. Period. So, if you are trying to amplify the sound of a quiet individual with a distant mic in a small room, it's going to present a whole lot of problems that won't be solved within a reasonable budget.
As others have stated, your resources would be better spent on teaching the kids how to properly project on stage. Yeah, it's not the fun part, but it's the important part. Technology isn't always the solution to the problem.
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Dick is absolutely correct here. The kids need to come to the show prepared. The adults need to understand that kids can't always pull off what is needed. Fact of the matter is you can't beat physics. 2x0=0 no matter what mic you use.
One thing I've seen done successfully with church children's choirs is to use broken mics or mics from those 3 for $30 packs to teach kids how to hold and sing into a microphone. It must be part of their rehearsal process for their entire time rehearsing (months, not just when they show up at the theater) and the instructor must correct poor usage the same way he or she would correct vocal issues.
We all know mic technique is something which must be learned. The adults leading these kids need to learn that too. If they can't then you may as well try pulling a rabbit out of your ass. You'll have just as much success.
Exactly. We put our children's choir in "show" mode as much as possible. Everything on how to hit your mark, where mics are how to hold a mic and move, where not to stand.
The last two practises are a few tweeks but we spend time on entry and exits, pointing out bumps and trip hazards.
Some days they kids are tired and don't project well others I don't need choir mics.
Having a couple of crazy leaders will help take the butterflies away . Would you feel embarrassed or shy doing this in front of crazy Joe. Then the audience is just a bunch of crazy Joes
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You won't get a whole lot of gain before feedback, but having a mic covering the stage will help significantly.
I have normally used SDCs on short stands for this. I currently have Rode NT4s for this kind of thing. But any old mic would do really. Wireless vocal handhelds (ew100-935s) on stands have been used if they need to be moved a lot.
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You won't get a whole lot of gain before feedback, but having a mic covering the stage will help significantly.
Just how do you think it helps in live theater?
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You won't get a whole lot of gain before feedback, but having a mic covering the stage will help significantly.
You get that horrible ambient on-the edge of feedback sound that all amateur productions should have!
Seriously, all the pros who have given their opinions are right on the money, probably from years of bad experiences! Fix it at source!
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You get that horrible ambient on-the edge of feedback sound that all amateur productions should have!
Seriously, all the pros who have given their opinions are right on the money, probably from years of bad experiences! Fix it at source!
Look, that's right in the money. But honestly all these performances both:
1. Suck
2. Are the best thing the parents have heard in their lives.
Have a bit of perspective on what these shows are (and aren't). Yes, make the performers better, but on the day you have what you have.
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Having worked in quite a lot of these same kids theatre shows over the years, I have to concur with most of the opinions here, it's always a bit of a nightmare and there is no easy solution.
An actual theatre group is a little better, as the kids have chosen to be there and generally sing a little louder and better.
School performances and the like are usually a nightmare as half the kids don't sing, half sing really badly, and there is always one kid who wants to be on x-factor when (usually she!) grows upp, and manages to find their way right in front of a mic (usually by pushing everyone else out the way) and drowns everyone else out with a terrible voice forcing you to hit mute!
In terms of talking, we normally give the main 3 or 4 speaking characters a headset so most of their lines come through fine and they have the freedom to move around the stage a bit and act. We then put 3 mics along the front of the stage and all the other kids who have a line or two to say come up to these and one at a time step forward and say their line into a microphone. It's not exactly broadway but it's kind of expected at this level, and the parent's just want to hear their precious little one's voice on stage, so the fact it's a little mechanical looking the way they all step up to the mic one by one is far less of a concern.
There will always be a few who won't come up close to the mic no matter how many times you encourage them, and so you struggle to hear them. Then as a nice surprise there will be the opposite one who comes right up to eat the mic with their big booming voice and blows everyone way, much to everyone's amusement. And the point where someone way shorter than everyone else comes up to the mic and has to be on tiptoes to get heard also gets a laugh. This is all seen as cute and part of the fun of working with kids, no one really expects a polished performance and a few humorous moments add to the fun.
In terms of singing, we try and get as much volume out of the three down stage fixed mics as possible for the main group, and then blend in the headsets (who we hope are decent singers) subtly to bring the volume up a bit.
Choice of mic helps, something hype like an e945 or better makes a difference and gives you a little more gain before feedback without being SO narrow that it misses a lot of the kids. There was also a thread a couple of years ago where people discussed mic choices for exactly this purpose, but kind of veered off into some very expensive mics to really begin to see good results.
For the singing, it never really works to be honest, and is always right on the edge of feedback trying to get as much as possible, to the point where every shuffle of feet and jingle of jewellery is picked up loud and clear, but there's still no singing, because the kinds simply never sing loud enough, but there's not much else you can do.
I've never really found boundary mics to be any good, tend to just pick up more feet noise and rumble than anything else. Directors and non-sound people always ask to hang mics in the roof above the kids, but never want them actually hanging down where people could see, always want them way up in the roof. Trying to explain that if a kid who isn't the loudest even to start with stands 15 feet away from a mic it isn't gonna pick up much useful, whether that 15 feet is horizontal or vertical, never seems to quite sink in, and you can always tell that although they drop the subject and kind of accept your answer, they never actually quite believe you and always think it would have helped!
When we've really struggled, we've had other people with handheld mics or headsets in the wings singing along, and mixed that into the sound to get more volume, or for one show we actually recorded the kids singing at a rehearsal and mixed it onto the backing tracks so they had their own voices giving them some "help" on show nights.
However as a side note, and as someone else said, specifically for this room pictured if money was being spent then I kinda think that some love for the PA would make a big difference here more than expensive microphones.
I assume the speakers have been turned out to the side quite a bit because they're not the best quality (just judging by looks, I may be wrong) and are causing a bit of feedback. A better quality set of speakers that could be pointed more at the audience without causing feedback on stage would make a big difference, maybe even a set of delays half way up the walls for the back half of the audience. Seems to me this would be the place to start.
k
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Are we not looking for professional solutions ?
Hanging mics DO work if they're not cheap junk.
For both a church choir and school theatrical productions we have supplied Earthworks Hanging mics and their Flex-wand series as the solution.
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Are we not looking for professional solutions ?
Hanging mics DO work if they're not cheap junk.
For both a church choir and school theatrical productions we have supplied Earthworks Hanging mics and their Flex-wand series as the solution.
No, we're looking at a situation where hanging mics don't/won't work due to lack of professional speaking levels, budget constraints, logistics (see posted pic) and tech op experience limitations. This is a specific situation not limited to "the way the pros do it".
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Are we not looking for professional solutions ?
Hanging mics DO work if they're not cheap junk.
For both a church choir and school theatrical productions we have supplied Earthworks Hanging mics and their Flex-wand series as the solution.
Well yeah, in an ideal world all school shows would have the budget to cover the stage in earthworks microphones (and have dpa headsets for all characters and have nice big steered beam line arrays to focus the sound at the audience and provide loads of gain before feedback).
But certainly I've never been asked to work one like that.
The OP has already described it as similar to what most of us have all experienced: a small performance on a limited budget, but with the biggest problem being simply that large groups of school kids who are stuck on stage by their teachers and don't all necessary want to be there just don't sing very loud.
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This is likely in the realm of technical solution sought for TOTAL lack of effective staging and direction.
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This is likely in the realm of technical solution sought for TOTAL lack of effective staging and direction.
Exactly. Fixing the problem at the source is the only solution that likely will fit within the budget constraints of this production. Even with the best equipment in the world, you can't completely overcome that problem.
If you use distant mics, and the noise of shuffling feet and papers is louder than the noise coming out of the kid's mouths, you are not going to be able to solve your problem. You'll just make it worse.
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Depending on the purpose of the children's programs, one could argue that fixing it at the source IS the professional solution regardless of the available budget.
Is the purpose of the program to entertain mom and dad, or to teach Johnny and Susie? A technical crutch adds nothing to teaching. Even though I had the latest calculator that gave perfectly fine solutions to problems, my math teacher dad refused to allow me to use it when studying.
Of course, that is easier to preach to the teachers if you are the administrator rather than the tech.
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The educational outcome being sought isn't singing, but confidence and teamwork.
"Fixing it at the source" isn't free, quick, or easy.