Post by: Keith Schmidt on November 07, 2010, 12:42:35 AM
However, when on a budget and have hauling limitations, how much is wood really worth? It may sound way better, but it is heavy, takes up a larger space (Usually) and is harder to set up. Mind you the cab wont shatter if its pushed into a pit or knocked over by an over enthusiastic bassist.
But plastics have come a long way, are lighter, usually cheaper, and... thats about it.
Is it worth going for wood cabinets when on a budget, or would buying plastic cabs be a decent investment. They are a whole hell of a lot cheaper.
Personally i don't plan on buying an ABS Plastic cab for anything, except maybe studio monitors but thats a different forum all together, i am just curious because i have heard both sides of the argument, and there is always a catch 22.
Post by: Seth Hochberg on November 07, 2010, 01:14:18 AM
Have specific models in mind? That might help folks give you a lot more specific advice.
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on November 07, 2010, 01:46:15 AM
But one of the best small club rigs (actually the best, by far - from Eric Muller's sound company) I have ever heard (many times) is a couple of ZXA5s over turbo subs.
If I wasn't so thick-headed, I would probably concede that listening tells a lot more than looking.
Post by: Dan Richardson on November 07, 2010, 08:33:26 AM
| Keith Schmidt wrote on Sun, 07 November 2010 00:42 |
I know this sounds like a stupid thing to ask, because its quite obvious which is better. Wood Cabinets. No Question. |
Better for what?
Post by: Bob Leonard on November 07, 2010, 09:34:31 AM
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 07, 2010, 10:29:30 AM
| Bob Leonard wrote on Sun, 07 November 2010 08:34 |
Wood has it's own resonance and can either subtract or add to the tone significantly. Plastic, not so much. Wood can and will reduce distortion. Plastic, not so much. Wood gives me wood. Plastic, not so much. |
Loudspeaker cabinets for musical reproduction are generally designed to be dead and free of resonances. Cabinets for musical instrument sound creation, is a different matter. I suspect plastic could probably make an acceptable music box with a little extra effort. Ovation guitars come to mind, as plastic that doesn't suck, but I expect that is subjective and opinions may vary.
JR
Post by: Dave Dermont on November 07, 2010, 12:44:52 PM
My guess is that building a speaker cabinet is not the same as building a violin.
I've also heard that speaker cabinet resonance can be a bad thing, and that's one of the reasons speaker cabinets have thick walls and use extensive amounts of bracing.
Also, "plastic" has a very long history of being a dirty word.
There is a company here in my hometown that makes HDPE panels up to 2 inches thick in sheets up to 5'x10'. I have often wondered how good they'd be for making speakers, and if the acoustic properties did not allow you the material to make good speaker cabinets, maybe it would be good for racks and cases.
The company is doing a bang-up business in products for rest rooms and locker rooms, and much of the success is due to the product's durability and longevity with very little maintenance.
Post by: Bob Josjor on November 07, 2010, 07:05:37 PM
| Seth Hochberg wrote on Sat, 06 November 2010 23:14 |
There are good wood PA cabs, and there are plenty of bad ones. There are good plastic PA cabs, and plenty of bad ones of those, too. |
We have a winner!!!
There are lots of general statements that may apply (wood is heavy, plastic flexs too much, etc) but the above statement is the only truly correct one.
Post by: Chuck Simon on November 07, 2010, 08:57:53 PM
| Bob Josjor wrote on Mon, 08 November 2010 00:05 | ||
We have a winner!!! There are lots of general statements that may apply (wood is heavy, plastic flexs too much, etc) but the above statement is the only truly correct one. |
Really? What are some of the really good plastic ones? Who is using them?
Post by: Bob Josjor on November 07, 2010, 09:27:55 PM
But for what its worth I've got some Peavey Impulse 1015's that, paired with a powered mixer, are my go to rig for small events like auctions, background muzak, etc. They sound good, look good, and are fairly bullet proof for rentals. Definately not high end or tour grade, but GOOD, which is what the original quote specified.
Post by: Duane Massey on November 07, 2010, 10:08:38 PM
Properly built, a plastic box should work just as well as a wooden box (or a concrete box, or a particle board box), UNLESS you want the particular resonance as a mater of taste.
I have always striven to avoid any resonances in the cabinets I build, preferring a box that will output what is input.
Post by: Bob Josjor on November 07, 2010, 10:22:30 PM
| Duane Massey wrote on Sun, 07 November 2010 20:08 |
I suspect most plastic cabinets sound "bad" because they are using components that are not exactly high$$. Properly built, a plastic box should work just as well as a wooden box (or a concrete box, or a particle board box), UNLESS you want the particular resonance as a mater of taste. I have always striven to avoid any resonances in the cabinets I build, preferring a box that will output what is input. |
The aforementioned Impulse 1015's at least have decent components: Black Widow and 22XT. The whole resonance issue would be my complaint on most of the plastic boxes out there. The Impulses are pretty solid, but if you compare them to the Peavey PR series (which, to be fair, is less than half the cost) there is so much bleed back of bass from the cabinet flex that they become extremely muddy when fed any low end.
Post by: Chuck Simon on November 07, 2010, 10:50:13 PM
Post by: Duane Massey on November 07, 2010, 10:52:37 PM
Although not "plastic" the old Community designs that were almost 100% fibreglas certainly did not have serious resonance issues, but they were not cheap.
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 07, 2010, 10:55:39 PM
| Bob Josjor wrote on Sun, 07 November 2010 21:22 |
The aforementioned Impulse 1015's at least have decent components: Black Widow and 22XT. The whole resonance issue would be my complaint on most of the plastic boxes out there. The Impulses are pretty solid, but if you compare them to the Peavey PR series (which, to be fair, is less than half the cost) there is so much bleed back of bass from the cabinet flex that they become extremely muddy when fed any low end. |
While I don't know what's inside the current 1015, as i recall the original impulse 500 had a internal wooden strut to prevent a bass robbing cabinet resonance..
Hybrid ?? Mixed technology...
JR
Post by: Milt Hathaway on November 07, 2010, 10:56:48 PM
| Chuck Simon wrote on Sun, 07 November 2010 21:50 |
I don't doubt that "really good" cabinets made from plastic could exist, it just doesn't seem like anyone is making professional grade, high end cabinets out of plastic yet, or am I just not aware of them? It probably is the future! |
Here's one: http://www.electro-voice.com/product.php?id=414
I'm not certain of your definition of "professional grade" but I will say that mine are making me money and satisfying my customers.
Post by: Chuck Simon on November 07, 2010, 11:05:56 PM
Post by: Art Welter on November 08, 2010, 07:33:58 PM
| Chuck Simon wrote on Sun, 07 November 2010 18:57 | ||||
Really? What are some of the really good plastic ones? Who is using them? |
Sound Image had plenty of really good touring cabinets made of plastic, though not the usual plastics. They use foam core, covered with glass fiber, similar to boat construction.
Wood is a lousy material to make cabinets from, as it is resonant.
Plywood alternates layers of wood, grain running at 90 degrees opposite in each layer, making it far less resonant, so it is a good cabinet material. The glue that holds plywood together is basically plastic.
Baltic Birch is great for cabinet building because it has more plys and lots of glue.
Plastics have the advantage of being able to mold bracing and compound curves into the material, but that greatly increases the cost of the mold, and the difficulty in injection, making it very expensive relative to a plywood construction.
Proper bracing can eliminate lots of material, wood or plastic, and can net better sounding lighter results.
However, that bracing adds construction time, complexity and expense, which few are willing to pay for.
Art Welter
Post by: Chuck Simon on November 10, 2010, 09:26:03 AM
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 10, 2010, 09:41:23 AM
| Chuck Simon wrote on Wed, 10 November 2010 08:26 |
I have a little GK bass amp with an aluminum cabinet. It sounds amazingly good for it's size. Any thoughts on Aluminum as a cabinet material? |
I think I recall some small rat shack speakers in a metal box.
Back in the '80s a tech working for me was into DIY speakers, and he played around with wood that had metal laminated on the surface. As I recall, the metal was pretty thin and probably didn't change the character of the box.
For lead guitar amps the box is a large part of the sound so even the type of wood used matters, for a bass guitar amp the desired output is generally cleaner so it seems a very dead box would be preferable. A wood cabinet flexing, is absorbing energy that would otherwise come out the front as sound pressure level. So metal would make great sound reinforcement speaker cabinets if it wasn't so heavy and/or expensive.
JR
Post by: Arjan van Gog on November 10, 2010, 10:53:13 AM
| Quote: |
I don't doubt that "really good" cabinets made from plastic could exist, it just doesn't seem like anyone is making professional grade, high end cabinets out of plastic yet, or am I just not aware of them? It probably is the future! |
I have absolutely no expertise in this matter but could it be that the really professional grade, high end cabinets are not made in sufficient numbers to justify making a mould (or possibly many moulds) for prototyping? It must be a lot easier and cheaper to design and prototype a cabine in wood and be able to translate that to a production line and know it's going to sound exactly the same.
Perhaps some conservatism and acceptance issues are also at play: if customers perceive plastic as inferior it's dangerous for a manufacturer to go against that. This by itself may explain why there supposedly are no high-end plastic boxes (I wouldn't know if they exist or not). And customers perceive plastic as inferior because there are no truly high end offerings so you end up with a self-confirming circle.
Personally and FWIW I really like my FBT MaxX4a active speakers made from plastic which I certainly consider to be of 'good quality' (lightyears ahead of the first generation 15 inch EONs I used to work with many years ago). But I sure don't mind that the accompanying MaxX10sa sub is made of birch plywood, somehow it does seem more 'professional', especially for a sub
.
Post by: Bennett Prescott on November 10, 2010, 11:40:25 AM
Post by: Bob Leonard on November 11, 2010, 12:15:36 AM
| John Roberts {JR} wrote on Wed, 10 November 2010 09:41 | ||
I think I recall some small rat shack speakers in a metal box. Back in the '80s a tech working for me was into DIY speakers, and he played around with wood that had metal laminated on the surface. As I recall, the metal was pretty thin and probably didn't change the character of the box. For lead guitar amps the box is a large part of the sound so even the type of wood used matters, for a bass guitar amp the desired output is generally cleaner so it seems a very dead box would be preferable. A wood cabinet flexing, is absorbing energy that would otherwise come out the front as sound pressure level. So metal would make great sound reinforcement speaker cabinets if it wasn't so heavy and/or expensive. JR |
John,
You're absolutely correct in your statements concerning guitar cabinets, but I would carry that one step further.
It's no mystery that older, pre 1967 Fender cabinets cost good money, and the reason being the wood construction. Not plywood, but pine board. And to add to that mystery there are a number of fender cabinets manufactured with pine board sides and dense particle board fronts, covered by a baffle board with very open meshed grill cloth.
Some of these baffle boards, specifically the Super Reverb with it's 4ea. 10" speakers, do not have round holes in them. The tops and bottoms of the holes are shaded about 1-2". As time changed, and Fender put less effort into their cabinets, so did the tone. Of course, none of this is a mystery, but it does prove that Leo had more than a passing knowledge concerning cabinet construction.
Enter the world of plastics. My experience with plastic speakers goes pretty far back to a point when I carried 4ea. EV SX500+ cabinets. I loved the sound, but time told it's tale on those cabinets to a degree far worse than wood. I could live with that, but I found some anomalies I couldn't live with.
Repairing the common plastic cabinet, driver, etc., requires the removal of huge numbers of screws, and I suppose I could live with that also. Plastic cabinets are usually harder to handle I suppose due to the handle positions and type. Plastic cabinets tend to "pump", or expand and contract while in use. Plastic cabinets tend to produce condensation inside and out when used at night outside or when the weather cools. The tone of plastic cabinets will change as the temperature changes. And most of all, the EV SX500+ was and still is the ugliest, hardest to handle speaker ever made.
Wood has tone to it. Harder woods, such as ebony, will brighten the tone of an instrument. Harder materials, such as plastic and steel, will brighten the tone of a speaker cabinet. But, who's to say that isn't a part of the design. Just some of the reasons I don't like plastic cabinets.
Post by: Jason J Raboin on November 13, 2010, 02:02:09 PM
Post by: Scott Hibbard on November 13, 2010, 02:47:03 PM
ScottH
Post by: Frederik Rosenkjær on November 14, 2010, 06:04:22 AM
I'm leaning towards the plastic domain having the ultimate advantages in the hands of the best. d&b says that plastic has allowed them to make shapes that are not possible with wood, which I understand is also the reasoning behind the horn baffle in the Danley SM60.
Post by: Tim Terral on November 14, 2010, 06:05:16 PM
Post by: Sean Chen on November 14, 2010, 06:13:22 PM
Based on my experience and personal assessment, box material matters a lot for subwoofers.
As for tops, if it doesn't need to produce bass, then it won't matter as much.
I believe one day some company will come out with composite enclosure that will sound better than wood enclosure. Maybe some thick foam core with CF laminates...
I have personally custom built a wood box that sounds really bad: going too thin on the material trying to save weight. It resonates audibly a few overtones of my intended tone. So yes, wood can sound bad too.
By the way, plywood is a composite made of natural layers.
Post by: Dave Dermont on November 14, 2010, 06:23:14 PM
He owned four Marshall cabinets, two full stacks. Both were loaded with the same model and vintage Celestion 12" speakers.
He wanted to bring the best sounding cabinet of the bunch with him on tour, so he set everything up in his garage, and did some listening tests.
The tests were absolutely unscientific, it was all about what he thought sounded best.
Strangely enough, one stack sounded "better" than another. Closer examination found that the better sounding cabinets had plywood backs. The other cabinets had particle board backs. This was the only obvious difference in the cabinets.
As guitarists are apt to do, he took the top cabinet of the better sounding stack on tour with him.
Of course, this has little to do with sound reinforcement loudspeakers. I just thought I'd share.