Post by: Mike Babcock on August 02, 2008, 10:40:24 AM
Had a show yesterday in Crown Point, IN at a county fair. I took a few pictures to show the world some things to look out for when walking up to a gig. Since the majority of it does not deal with audio, I will fully understand if Mac moves this to the basement. I work for an artist who was very insistant about going on with the show. Nothing less than something actually breaking would have stopped them from performing. I admire their attitude of "the show must go on" and "we can't dissapoint our fans", but seriously. My hands were tied on this one, no amount of my explaining safety issues to them persuaded them into cancelling. Granted, nothing failed (at least while we were there), but when I took these pictures it was definitely known that I was taking "before" pictures.
On with the fun...
#1 From the front
#2 from the monitor world side
#3 another front shot
#4 From the other side
#5 An action photo
#6 What the fuck???
#7 FOH
#8 Front Truss
#9 Rear Truss
#10 How the roof was attached to the scaffolding
Post by: Mike Babcock on August 02, 2008, 10:40:43 AM
#12 The steps
#13 The steps again
#14 The steps for a 3rd time
#15 A corner of the stage
#16 And under the stage
Please comment at will
And seriously, who has ACTUALLY cancelled shows with less wrong than this? and who has continued on?
I haven't even touched on the advance to reality differences... Stuff like VerTec 4889 and 4880 advanced, 4888 and 4882 in reality, there was so much wrong, I almost walked with or without the band.
Post by: Jesse Mahoney on August 02, 2008, 10:59:11 AM
Post by: Mike Babcock on August 02, 2008, 11:16:45 AM
Post by: Mac Kerr on August 02, 2008, 11:26:15 AM
Mac
Post by: Mike Babcock on August 02, 2008, 11:35:01 AM
| Mac Kerr wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 11:26 |
Wow! Mike, that is like a demonstration of how not to do everything. I can't be amazed by any one thing because the totality is so overwhelming. Was there anything they did right that didn't make it into your pictures? From nothing to keep the whole structure from sinking into the mud, to the triangle truss and the attachment to the un-guyed un-ballasted scaff. Yikes. Glad you lived through it. Mac |
They did find a scrim for our drum riser and it was black, hahahahaha
Post by: Lee Douglas on August 02, 2008, 12:04:54 PM
I'm still not clear- exactly what is holding the truss to the scaffolding?
I love the shot of the guy dumping the roof on the back truss of lights. That needs to be photo shopped into a "priceless" shot!
Post by: GregMorrison on August 02, 2008, 12:12:33 PM
Man, that is nasty.....
Glad that we have a good staging guy here that works with us
http://www.vabsstages.com/stages.html
Post by: Iain_Macdonald on August 02, 2008, 12:26:04 PM
In the UK, an event like that would have attracted a visit from the local council(USA speak: town/city council) and a fire officer. I am sure that it would never have been allowed to start.
There seems to have been a number of these type of posts over the last year. I have a feeling that you might be heading for a whole set of federal and local legislation.
This link goes to a list of suggested reading and laws/guidance for UK event organisers. It is 4 years old and there are a number of significant additions since it was written.
This link is a sample of a UK tented structure manfacturers introductory guidance.
If you provided structures in the UK you would have a copy of the ISE Guide to Temporary Demountable Structures.
Iain.
Post by: Milt Hathaway on August 02, 2008, 12:41:35 PM
| Iain Macdonald wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 11:26 |
In the UK, an event like that would have attracted a visit from the local council(USA speak: town/city council) and a fire officer. I am sure that it would never have been allowed to start. |
County fairs get away with all kinds of scary shit. Few inspectors have the balls to go against the county judges (etc.) who approve and support these events.
When someone is eventually hurt, everyone BUT the county is to blame.
Post by: Dave Bigelow on August 02, 2008, 12:48:25 PM
Certainly is an "interesting" design.
Post by: Tom Reid on August 02, 2008, 01:05:19 PM
Yeah, I have my suspicions on who did this stuff.
Brian Wynn or John Horvath can probably shed some light on the real story behind this ...mess.
Next time you're in town let me know.
The GF likes to cook.
ETA: John nor Brian have NOTHING to do with this crap.
Sorry guys, didn't mean to imply you build bad shows ...I know better.
Post by: Scott Raymond on August 02, 2008, 01:05:48 PM
Wow, what an incredible photoshop job!...cause that surely can't be real.
Uhhhhh......just how do you lower the roof in the event of thunderstorm winds? A ripcord maybe
With stuff like this there might be a market for roll cages in monitor land. And what the heck was the deal with the c-clamp on the truss. Could'nt they get a bolt through one set of holes?
Post by: Mike Babcock on August 02, 2008, 01:30:17 PM
| Iain Macdonald wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 12:26 |
WOW^∞ In the UK, an event like that would have attracted a visit from the local council(USA speak: town/city council) and a fire officer. I am sure that it would never have been allowed to start. There seems to have been a number of these type of posts over the last year. I have a feeling that you might be heading for a whole set of federal and local legislation. This link goes to a list of suggested reading and laws/guidance for UK event organisers. It is 4 years old and there are a number of significant additions since it was written. This link is a sample of a UK tented structure manfacturers introductory guidance. If you provided structures in the UK you would have a copy of the ISE Guide to Temporary Demountable Structures. Iain. |
The guidelines set by the UK and other EU countries are the very reason why I am SOOOOOOOOOOO happy to be on my way there on Aug 10th. I have 3 more shows in the states, 1 of which I feel good about in Ventura next week. The other 2, well, we shall see.
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on August 02, 2008, 01:55:56 PM
| Mike Babcock wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 13:30 |
The guidelines set by the UK and other EU countries are the very reason why I am SOOOOOOOOOOO happy to be on my way there on Aug 10th. I have 3 more shows in the states, 1 of which I feel good about in Ventura next week. The other 2, well, we shall see. |
Hi Mike,
Im headed over to the UK in a few weeks! Im actually quite excited to go. I'll be there from the 23rd to the 26th. I wish the whole trip was longer... Oh well.
Evan
Post by: Mike Babcock on August 02, 2008, 02:03:13 PM
| Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 13:55 |
Hi Mike, Im headed over to the UK in a few weeks! Im actually quite excited to go. I'll be there from the 23rd to the 26th. I wish the whole trip was longer... Oh well. Evan |
Say hi to my merch girl when you see her today. For me, I'll be checking out some real production at Lollapalooza. I've seen Warped Tour enough to last me a lifetime. I've only seen Rage about 6 times.
Post by: A Man on August 02, 2008, 02:12:48 PM
(They) didn't use any pads under the scaff or the stage legs. If you look at the pictures under the stage you will see that the legs are sunk about 6" in the mud and the whole upstage is pitched about 15 degrees.
I had to get (after bitching about it for an hour) wood pallet skids to stand on @ FOH.
Fun.
Post by: A Man on August 02, 2008, 02:15:03 PM
I'll PM you my cel #, we are staying at the Blackstone hotel across from Grant Park.
Post by: Edline Edmond on August 02, 2008, 02:30:28 PM
Post by: Eric Deweese on August 02, 2008, 03:36:36 PM
Post by: Dave Alderdice on August 02, 2008, 03:42:20 PM
I wonder if Molly Hatchet, Rick Springfield and Blake Shelton's people will go on with their performances this weekend?
The surprise is that the promoter is actually charging upwards of $60 a ticket for shows on that stage.
It's a shame that some young person (people?) had to climb up there and build that monstrosity. Let's hope that no one gets hurt.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 02, 2008, 03:43:57 PM
| Eric Deweese wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 14:36 |
I hereby cast a vote to make this a sticky thread of what NOT to do... People need to see this, and unfortunately I see stuff like this more often than not around my part of the country. No I am not part of it either. |
Eric-
The problem is the people who do these kinds of things have no idea how unsafe the resulting "structure" is.
There are plenty of guys out there that probably can't see the errors in this one, it would require (as Arlo Guthrie told us) "circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back..." before they would find 15% of the issues our readers have already found.
Mac, how about a sticky thread in the Basement or Lighting forums on "how NOT to do....." ? Is that realistic?
Tim "still shuddering" Mc
Post by: Guy Nix on August 02, 2008, 04:01:13 PM
I can't believe whoever provided the rig allowed it to be set up under such conditions.
Post by: Milt Hathaway on August 02, 2008, 04:02:28 PM
| Tim McCulloch wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 14:43 |
Mac, how about a sticky thread in the Basement or Lighting forums on "how NOT to do....." ? Is that realistic? |
Add this one to the list, then: http://web.mac.com/kyosuke/Site/Roof.html
There was a discussion here about it, oddly enough with a similar title: http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/133401/90/
Post by: Ken Newman on August 02, 2008, 04:16:01 PM
That is worse than what some third world countries might put up for a stage!
To think that it's right in our heartland, in beautiful Indiana, is just a disgrace!
Any chance we can start naming names?
Production managers? Technical directors? Sound companies?
This is just a RECIPE for disaster, and with all the people that have gotten killed or injured by accidents in the entertainment business lately, we don't need any more accidents!
Post by: Charlie Zureki on August 02, 2008, 04:50:44 PM
| Ken Newman wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 15:16 |
Holy Shit! That is worse than what some third world countries might put up for a stage! To think that it's right in our heartland, in beautiful Indiana, is just a disgrace! Any chance we can start naming names? Production managers? Technical directors? Sound companies? This is just a RECIPE for disaster, and with all the people that have gotten killed or injured by accidents in the entertainment business lately, we don't need any more accidents! |
Ken,
I agree, maybe it's time to start naming names, posting as if it were a News Report.
It could be written with only the details, such as Company Names, Dates, Venues, possibly with photos of "unsafe practices" or Accidents, people injured (or worse), no Commentaries, just the Facts.
Maybe a year to year "report card" with the vendors names being deleted after a year with no incidents.
If Show system providers start seeing their names being posted, maybe they'll put people first, and insure that they are doing things the safe way.
Opinions?
Hammer
Hammer
Post by: Craig Hauber on August 02, 2008, 05:04:20 PM
| Mike Babcock wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:30 |
The guidelines set by the UK and other EU countries are the very reason why I am SOOOOOOOOOOO happy to be on my way there on Aug 10th. I have 3 more shows in the states, 1 of which I feel good about in Ventura next week. The other 2, well, we shall see. |
Don't look too close at the roof structure at Seaside park in Ventura. It's steel and been within 600' of the pacific for as long as I've been in town. -Our fair's main-stage venue sucks -it's at in a dirt-track oval and local populace has bitched about it for years.
Post by: John Horvath on August 02, 2008, 10:16:36 PM
Mike, thank you for posting these. The people that run this fair decided to hire a couple of shit companies from outside the county, and even the state for that matter. These pics might come in handy, that is if they want it done right next year and they're willing to pay for it.
Post by: Jason Tubbs on August 02, 2008, 10:55:51 PM
| Mike Babcock wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:40 |
Since the majority of it does not deal with audio, I will fully understand if Mac moves this to the basement. |
I think everyone would agree that safety is always on-topic!
Just astounding.
jt
Post by: Scott Fahy on August 02, 2008, 11:53:27 PM
All I can say is I am glad you and Jon made it through this fiasco safely. It reminds me of a show i did years ago, the band said "For what we are getting paid it is not the worth the risk" and never walked onstage.
Scott
Post by: Mike Babcock on August 03, 2008, 12:25:43 AM
| Charlie Zureki wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 16:50 | ||
Ken, I agree, maybe it's time to start naming names, posting as if it were a News Report. It could be written with only the details, such as Company Names, Dates, Venues, possibly with photos of "unsafe practices" or Accidents, people injured (or worse), no Commentaries, just the Facts. Maybe a year to year "report card" with the vendors names being deleted after a year with no incidents. If Show system providers start seeing their names being posted, maybe they'll put people first, and insure that they are doing things the safe way. Opinions? Hammer Hammer |
You guys have all the required information in order to find out who the promoter is. Anyone with rudimentary google skills can figure it all out since I mentioned the city AND the other bands playing...
As others have said, it's a sketchy organization that flat out lied to me about just about every spec of this event. I had no problem with the sound guys with the exception that we got the C or D team with no LD (we do not carry an LD). I'm used to dealing with the C and D teams, it is why I carry everything on stage except stands (which they barely had enough for my band). The only thing that really needs to work is foh and racks and stacks.
I find it curious that I still don't see anyone on here that claims publicly that they walked away from a gig this bad. A couple people have PM'd me about this very promoter, which I REALLY wish I knew about beforehand.
The only thing I can do about this at this point is what I have already done. I have urged our large booking agency to blacklist this promoter. I just saw the president of another booking agency today at Lollapalooza and urged him to blacklist this company as well. I may end up having to use this thread, or parts of it, to further my case.
PS, go see Rage Against the Machine. Greg Madix has them pretty well dialed in.
Post by: Jim Duyck on August 03, 2008, 12:51:33 AM
Post by: Eric Deweese on August 03, 2008, 01:03:27 AM
| Tim McCulloch wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 14:43 | ||
Eric- The problem is the people who do these kinds of things have no idea how unsafe the resulting "structure" is. There are plenty of guys out there that probably can't see the errors in this one, it would require (as Arlo Guthrie told us) "circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back..." before they would find 15% of the issues our readers have already found. Mac, how about a sticky thread in the Basement or Lighting forums on "how NOT to do....." ? Is that realistic? Tim "still shuddering" Mc |
Tim-
The words you speak are very true, sometimes I guess I live in a fantasy world where I think people should be able to dicern a complete breakdown of common sense and understanding of the law of gravity, hydraulics, water/electricity relationships..etc..etc..etc
Alas, here we are until next time until something like this actually breaks and kills untold dozens of people.
-Eric "distantly hopeful" Deweese
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 03, 2008, 01:20:54 AM
| John Horvath wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 21:16 |
Tom Reid, for the love of God man, please rephrase or add to your post.. If someone's reading quickly thru this thread, they could easily get the idea Brian or I had something to do with this pile of shit. Mike, thank you for posting these. The people that run this fair decided to hire a couple of shit companies from outside the county, and even the state for that matter. These pics might come in handy, that is if they want it done right next year and they're willing to pay for it. |
IT WAS NOT ME!!!
Now that I have that out. What a joke. And just to think I was ready to quote this job the right way 32 x 40 stage load bearing roof with 12 box's of EV Linearray aside 8 subs and 2 M7's with 96k of lights plus power. But I was told that they could get the job done for a 1/4 of what I was talking about.
Way to go guys you got what you paid for!
Let it be known that the county fair did not put this together. They simply leased the space to the promoter and they hired in the shit heads and then booked the bands and handled ticket sales.
Mike I can assure you that us local guys here in Crown Point do not operate this way at all. If you are in town again and have any problems call me I'll be happy to help and Im sure John and Tom feel the same way. And don't forget about Marty B. he's just around the corner to.
Post by: Tom Reid on August 03, 2008, 02:03:56 AM
| Brian Wynn wrote on Sun, 03 August 2008 00:20 | ||
IT WAS NOT ME!!! Now that I have that out. What a fucking joke. And just to think I was ready to quote this job the right way 32 x 40 stage load bearing roof with 12 box's of EV Linearray aside 8 subs and 2 M7's with 96k of lights plus power. But I was told that they cold get the job done for a 1/4 of what I was talking about. Way to go guys you got what you paid for! Let it be known that the county fair did not put this together. They simply leased the space to the promoter and they hired in the shit heads and then booked the bands and handled ticket sales. Mike I can assure you that us local guys here in Crown Point do not operate this way at all. If you are in town again and have any problems call me I'll be happy to help and Im sure John and Tom feel the same way. And don't forget about Marty B. he's just around the corner to. |
Apologies.
I know you guys are pro saftey, pro competence, and very user friendly.
Post by: Charlie Zureki on August 03, 2008, 09:14:26 AM
| Mike Babcock wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 23:25 | ||||
You guys have all the required information in order to find out who the promoter is. Anyone with rudimentary google skills can figure it all out since I mentioned the city AND the other bands playing... As others have said, it's a sketchy organization that flat out lied to me about just about every spec of this event. I had no problem with the sound guys with the exception that we got the C or D team with no LD (we do not carry an LD). I'm used to dealing with the C and D teams, it is why I carry everything on stage except stands (which they barely had enough for my band). The only thing that really needs to work is foh and racks and stacks. I find it curious that I still don't see anyone on here that claims publicly that they walked away from a gig this bad. A couple people have PM'd me about this very promoter, which I REALLY wish I knew about beforehand. The only thing I can do about this at this point is what I have already done. I have urged our large booking agency to blacklist this promoter. I just saw the president of another booking agency today at Lollapalooza and urged him to blacklist this company as well. I may end up having to use this thread, or parts of it, to further my case. PS, go see Rage Against the Machine. Greg Madix has them pretty well dialed in. |
Hello Mike,
I'm really glad that you and your crew got through that mess.
While I can't speak for Ken when he mentioned "naming names", my question of whether we could start naming names was more in regards to a POST (on this Site, possibly Basement) to list safety issues, and the People that allow these things to happen.
I understood that, with the you've info given; could provide your story's background info.
In regards to ever walking away from such a Gig, I've been involved with Acts walking away from MUCH LESS serious crap. I have never, in MY LIFE seen as many INCOMPETENT Mistakes/Decisions made by a Promoter/Staging Co.
With all of the issues regarding safety and the Rider Breaches, I am surprised that YOUR truck was ever unloaded.
Good Luck,
Hammer
Post by: Brendan Maroney on August 03, 2008, 12:14:54 PM
Brendan
Post by: Charlie Zureki on August 03, 2008, 12:29:44 PM
Yes it's common to use safety's on everything flown over head. And, yes they did F/U.
I am certain the Local Stagehands for this Show WERE NOT Union Stagehands, they would have never let any of the crap slide.
* Another example of the reason to use Union Stagehands, you'll get the kind of knowledgeable techs/hands that will help your Show go safely and smoothly. Instead of some "day labor" that the Production Company or Promoter get's from in front of a bus station.
Cheers,
Hammer
Post by: Brendan Maroney on August 03, 2008, 12:55:08 PM
Brendan
Post by: Jonathan 'JP' Peirce on August 03, 2008, 03:31:47 PM
| Charlie Zureki wrote on Sun, 03 August 2008 12:29 |
Hello Brendan, Yes it's common to use safety's on everything flown over head. And, yes they did F/U. I am certain the Local Stagehands for this Show WERE NOT Union Stagehands, they would have never let any of the crap slide. * Another example of the reason to use Union Stagehands, you'll get the kind of knowledgeable techs/hands that will help your Show go safely and smoothly. Instead of some "day labor" that the Production Company or Promoter get's from in front of a bus station. Cheers, Hammer |
Thats FUNNY. I just last week was screaming at my union steward because I found about 12 movers that were restored WITH NO SAFETIES. (by my IA crew).
(lets not get into me screaming at a guy climbing my truss JUST LAST NIGHT to focus and dropping his CELL PHONE onto the deck)
I've had great stagehands with cards and without, and shit stagehands with cards and without.
JP
Post by: Brian Bolly on August 03, 2008, 05:31:29 PM
I understand your position about not naming names here - what's on the internet lasts "forever" and if these idiots do clean up their act, they're pretty much blacklisted permanently (although that's giving them the benefit of the doubt). But, it also keeps you out of trouble.
What's sad is that there's a local company here that puts up a stage that looks a LOT like this (and by a lot I mean it's probably close to identical) for a multi-day festival every year, and it's RIGHT on the water - literally, built on the beach. I've tried to talk to the promoters about this, but the answer I always hear is "We've been pleased with the service so far." It makes me cringe every time since I usually am mixing for acts that play on the aforementioned stage.
Best of luck with your upcoming festivals, and let's all hope that none of them look like this.
Post by: Rob Ottaviano on August 03, 2008, 07:00:00 PM
A call to OSHA is in order
Peace
Post by: Richard Rajchel on August 03, 2008, 08:48:48 PM
In fact you may have inadvertently left yourself open to more trouble by not saying anything or contacting the proper safety officials. If someone would get hurt there and you knew it was a risk and did nothing that could be construed as a failure of duty or something similar. I would have left...band or no band.
Just my 2 cents.
Post by: Chris Buford on August 04, 2008, 02:01:58 AM
| Brian Bolly wrote on Sun, 03 August 2008 16:31 |
What's sad is that there's a local company here that puts up a stage that looks a LOT like this (and by a lot I mean it's probably close to identical) |
Hey I was near Baltimore this weekend. Didn't fare as well as the OP. They even had the balls to replace that stick of truss and continue the festival the next day. The tarp grommets were already starting to rip out just with the tension the bungee cords had on them
Post by: Tate_Tullis on August 04, 2008, 02:24:46 AM
Post by: Lee Douglas on August 04, 2008, 02:51:19 AM
Of course the obvious answer is to refuse the show and walk away. The OP certainly had enough of a breech of contract going that from many other issues that no court could possibly hold them liable. Sometimes I don't think it's quite so cut and dry. How many of you have show refusal clauses in your contracts and how vague is the language? I guess I'm just letting my mind wonder a bit but like most of you, I've seen some spooky stuff out there...
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 04, 2008, 03:55:20 AM
I'd call the building inspection department, or perhaps the fire marshal and inquire as to what code, permitting, and inspection requirements exist in your locality.
Tim "why die for entertainment?" Mc
Post by: Randy Pence on August 04, 2008, 05:34:56 AM
Post by: Charlie Zureki on August 04, 2008, 08:40:52 AM
| Jonathan 'JP' Peirce wrote on Sun, 03 August 2008 14:31 |
Thats FUNNY. I just last week was screaming at my union steward because I found about 12 movers that were restored WITH NO SAFETIES. (by my IA crew). (lets not get into me screaming at a guy climbing my truss JUST LAST NIGHT to focus and dropping his CELL PHONE onto the deck) I've had great stagehands with cards and without, and shit stagehands with cards and without. JP |
Jp,
I do not have an answer as to why an IA crew from NY/NJ would forget, or not bother, to complete the safeties while rehanging some Movers.
It doesn't make any sense does it? The NY/NJ area locals have some of the best trained Stagehands I've ever worked with. With all of the Safe Practice classes and Stagecraft training classes, I'm certain they'd be aware of the All of the Hazards of being lax in their job, to others and to themselves. The only answer I can possibly give is that there was a miscommunication.
Everywhere I've worked with IA crews, they had a rule that "nothing goes up except a lanyard-ed wrench". I'm certain that the Hand that dropped his phone felt embarrassed, and received a lot of grief from his coworkers. In many locals, that person is sent home.
Regarding the Staging and the Truss hangs from the OP's photos, I have a hard time believing it was assembled by any Stage Hand whether they were Union or Non Union. That was the point I was trying to make.
It appears to me that WHOMEVER was in the supervisory position, and their workers, did not have a clue. It is as if they collected some guy's off the street and put them to work.
Lastly, yes, there are good workers and bad workers, both Union and Non Union. But, I've found that in a City I'm not familiar with, I'd choose Union Workers over Non Union, because of the Skills and Training they receive. I'm pretty assured I know what I'm getting.
That's MY opinion, you are free to have yours
Cheers,
Hammer
,
Post by: Tom Blunt on August 04, 2008, 09:59:40 AM
Not being from the states do you guys not have local building codes that cover temporary structures?
I know here that we have to lodge a building application with our local council and sometimes property owner to construct stages and then they send out an inspector to check it.
I do not think that a name and shame post type thing on here is a good idea as it may be taken the wrong way and have repercussions and it is in existence for ever.
Tom
Post by: Doug Hammel on August 04, 2008, 11:01:44 AM
Post by: Charlie Zureki on August 04, 2008, 11:53:01 AM
| Doug Hammel wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 10:01 |
You know after seeing that and what seems to be be a common ocurrence of this kind of "crap" here recently, I am thinking we do need to call these people/vendors out for this. There is no excuse for not doing it the right way. I would hate to turn on the news and watch a report about many people being hurt or God forbid being killed because of someone not doing their job. We as an industry need to police ourselves before we see the likes of OSHA or something similar tell us how we can do our jobs. |
Hello Doug,
There are specific Osha Guidelines regarding Our Industry.
Osha Follows the North American Industrial Classification System, or NAICS
Under the Heading- 7133
Codes- 711510
If a person has a complaint regarding a safety issue that cannot be resolved they can call Osha on the Federal Level, and Most States have a State run Group.
They will send an Inspector out from General Industry and/or Construction Group for violations.
I would be hesitant to call them, unless I saw a very drastic safety concern. (Like so many on this thread)
The "Staging Company" involved in this thread would have seen astronomical fines. They probably would have slapped the County Fair Officials Too!
Cheers,
Hammer
Post by: Randy Pence on August 04, 2008, 12:12:30 PM
Said rudimentary searching finds that http://onestientertainment.com/index.htm was the promoter of the band at the fair and they also happen to perform complete production, including staging. Whether they subbed anything out is up for grabs.
Post by: John Halliburton on August 04, 2008, 01:37:00 PM
| Randy Pence wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 11:12 |
oh, what the hell. I'll cross the line of silence. Said rudimentary searching finds that http://onestientertainment.com/index.htm was the promoter of the band at the fair and they also happen to perform complete production, including staging. Whether they subbed anything out is up for grabs. |
That's why it looked familiar! Had the young Irish musicians onstage at an event a few weeks ago-I wasn't happy with how the Peavey Versarray 112 system sounded and took some pictures-look familiar? Same production.
I took the shot from the halfway point back to FOH, which was off to the stage right side. Their monitor canopy caught water from passing showers, and it dumped onto the mixer, racks, and an open mic case on stage while we were setting up. Ouch. We left the monitor amps off for our set.
The scaffolding used caught my attention, so I just grabbed the shot posted above. See the next post for the genie lift detail that bugged me.
Best regards,
John
PS. The highs went away as you walked across the audience at any distance chosen-some cable polarity was no doubt bad on one of the HP feeds somewhere. House EQ was a pair of "frowns" with a couple of notches in the mids.
Post by: John Halliburton on August 04, 2008, 01:42:03 PM
I'm glad the wind wasn't coming in strong from the wrong direction, as this just didn't look right to me.
Best regards,
John
Post by: Mac Kerr on August 04, 2008, 01:46:36 PM
I also like how in your previous pic the top element of the array is pointed up. Were there grandstands or a hill to get the audience up where that speaker was pointed?
Mac
Post by: John Halliburton on August 04, 2008, 01:50:29 PM
| Mac Kerr wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 12:46 |
I guess they decided the scaff would keep them from tipping over backward. I also like how in your previous pic the top element of the array is pointed up. Were there grandstands or a hill to get the audience up where that speaker was pointed? Mac |
I did not get a shot of what they used to tie the Genie column to the scaffold behind, but I'm pretty sure it was a nylon web strap.
The stage was set up in a parking lot and flat as central Illinois.
Best regards,
John
Post by: Ian Hunt on August 04, 2008, 02:02:15 PM
Genies are not recomended for outdoor events under any circumstances (1 quick call to the Genie factory answered that question) wonder what the insurance company would think about that setup.
Post by: John Halliburton on August 04, 2008, 02:09:30 PM
| Ian Hunt wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 13:02 |
FYI Genies are not recomended for outdoor events under any circumstances (1 quick call to the Genie factory answered that question) wonder what the insurance company would think about that setup. |
I did not know that-but this is not an area I claim any expertise in-I just observed that the outriggers on that lift in the picture had none coming backward at an appropriate angle, forming the "X" pattern on the ground(floor!) that I'm used to seeing.
Interesting.
Best regards,
John
Post by: Ian Hunt on August 04, 2008, 02:18:15 PM
I came up against this quite recently (and I admit to having used Genies outside, in the past) I was looking for a safe way to guy the towers so I called the factory, they were absolutely unequivocal. The manufacturer neither recommends or supports use of the Super Tower in an outside environment.
So that's good enough for me.
Post by: jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney) on August 04, 2008, 02:31:51 PM
| Randy Pence wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 17:12 |
oh, what the hell. I'll cross the line of silence. Said rudimentary searching finds that http://onestientertainment.com/index.htm was the promoter of the band at the fair and they also happen to perform complete production, including staging. Whether they subbed anything out is up for grabs. |
Good lord.. I wonder what they had to do with the arcada theatre on their site. Send the PSW inspection team armed with a camera!
Post by: Craig Leerman on August 04, 2008, 04:09:24 PM
* Front Truss Bowed Its pretty obvious that the front truss is overloaded just with the lamp bars on it. Add any wind loading to the roof tarp, and the front truss could collapse or snap before the bungee cords would break from the stress.
* No Guy Wires There are no guy wires, tower outriggers or ballast to keep the scaff towers upright. While it looks like screwjacks were used to level the scaffolding towers, they still need to be braced with guys and ballast
* Wrong rigging for truss* the front and rear truss seems to be held to the scaff towers with a cheeseborough. These are used with pipes ranging from 1 1/4" to 1 1/2 ". While one end of the "cheeseburger" fits tightly around the scaff tube, the other end is too large for the triangle truss. It looks like Applied brand trussing which uses 1" tubes. A reducing 90 clamp, hang bracket or custom clamp should be used, not an oversized clamp and bungee cords! Clamps are supposed to fit snuggly around the pipe tube when used, not used with smaller tubes.
In addition, both the top and bottom cord of the truss should have been clamped to the tower. It would provide more structural stability.
* Large area of tarp unsupported The roof tarp is basically unsuported between the center truss and the rear. There are also no front to back supports under the roof tarp. While a flapping tarp might provide a bit of shade, it also has 2 bad downsides.
The first is that is acts as more of a sail, because the wind can now flap the tarp more easily than a well supported roof tarp. This excess flapping will place extra strain from many directions on the structure. Not to mention the extra noise from the flapping.
The second is that large unsupported areas of roof tarp become rain basins! Water weighs 8.34 pounds per gallon. Unsupported areas of roof tarp can soon contain hundreds and thousands of pounds of water. Not only does that add to the loading of the roof and structure, but usually results in failure of the tarp with a tear or ripping out of some grommets. Not very nice to have hundreds of gallons of water crashing into people, or electrical and musical gear.
* Missing Legs Some pieces of decks are missing structural support (legs). How do you overlook that?
* Legs sinking into mud It looks like there are no baseplates, screwjacks or foot supports on the deck legs, just the small square leg tube touching the ground. Even if the ground was perfectly level, because it structure was built on dirt/grass, it need baseplates under the legs to keep them from sinking.
* Diagonal supports missing There are numerous diagonal support braces missing from under the decks.
* Stair Unit The steps don't appear to be securely attached to the stage, or correctly supported so they don't fall down when in use. A bungee cord seems to serve as a stair support!
* PPE People under this roof nightmare not wearing Personal Protective Equipment like hard hats!
I think I know who did this stage. Would not be the first time (or the second, or third, or fourth, etc) that he has dropped a roof. I'm surprised Sound Lab put their cabinets on his deck under that "roof". At least the lighting guys knew better and brought in their own truss and cranks.
* No Guy Wires see above
* Towers not level It may just be the pic, or it may be from the roof collapse, but it looks like some of the towers are not plumb in some pics.
* Wrong rigging for truss WTF??????? Did I say rigging? I meant WRONG EVERYTHING for this roof.
Hardware store chain is not approved for overhead use.
* truss Undersized for span You can easily tell that from the fact that it failed!
* Large area of tarp unsupported It looks like the entire tarp was simply bungeed around the perimeter.
* Wills Not enough people working on or around the stage had updated wills, or had notified their next of kin that they may soon be seriously injured or killed.
* No Guy Wires See above. Especially when they choose to use narrow (24-30" wide) scaffolding instead of the more common 5' wide scaffolding. Either way, guys/ballast is needed
* No Baseplates There are no baseplates used on the scaffolding towers. Even though the ground may be perfectly level, the round open end tubes can dig into soft ground, and even asphalt, causing the towers to become unlevel. Of course, I would use screwjacks outside, even if the ground looked level. Most outdoor areas, including parking lots have some small slope built in to drain water away.
* Fire extinguisher unsupported While it may seem trivial, the fire extinguisher should be mounted on a bracket no more than 48" above the ground. Because its on the ground it could get damaged, accidentaly discharged, or moved away from the area to a "safer location".
* Wrong rigging for truss If this is the same company as the top stage, I'm sure the truss rigging is still not correct. its too small too see in the pic.
Post by: Scott Raymond on August 04, 2008, 04:52:48 PM
| Craig Leerman wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 15:09 |
In no particular order I think I know who did this stage. Would not be the first time (or the second, or third, or fourth, etc) that he has dropped a roof. I'm surprised Sound Lab put their cabinets on his deck under that "roof". At least the lighting guys knew better and brought in their own truss and cranks. |
Well, since they make a habit of wrecking roofs, I guess you can add reusing damaged truss to the faults which would explain the c-clamp in one of the photos.
P.S. Might have been a last second purchase as it looks like a tag left on on the threaded shaft.
Post by: Eric Deweese on August 04, 2008, 07:59:44 PM
| Craig Leerman wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 15:09 |
I think I know who did this stage. Would not be the first time (or the second, or third, or fourth, etc) that he has dropped a roof. I'm surprised Sound Lab put their cabinets on his deck under that "roof". At least the lighting guys knew better and brought in their own truss and cranks. * No Guy Wires see above * Towers not level It may just be the pic, or it may be from the roof collapse, but it looks like some of the towers are not plumb in some pics. * Wrong rigging for truss WTF??????? Did I say rigging? I meant WRONG EVERYTHING for this roof. Hardware store chain is not approved for overhead use. * truss Undersized for span You can easily tell that from the fact that it failed! |
No one has mentioned this yet... but that "truss" is actually made of free standing ham radio tower sections, not even designed for a horizontal load in the first place!!!!
I now have photo proof to a couple of people that do this around my area to show them the that their "real good deal on trussing" is RIDICULOUS STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Jonathan 'JP' Peirce on August 04, 2008, 09:45:47 PM
| Charlie Zureki wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 08:40 |
Jp, I do not have an answer as to why an IA crew from NY/NJ would forget, or not bother, to complete the safeties while rehanging some Movers. It doesn't make any sense does it? The NY/NJ area locals have some of the best trained Stagehands I've ever worked with. With all of the Safe Practice classes and Stagecraft training classes, I'm certain they'd be aware of the All of the Hazards of being lax in their job, to others and to themselves. The only answer I can possibly give is that there was a miscommunication. Everywhere I've worked with IA crews, they had a rule that "nothing goes up except a lanyard-ed wrench". I'm certain that the Hand that dropped his phone felt embarrassed, and received a lot of grief from his coworkers. In many locals, that person is sent home. Regarding the Staging and the Truss hangs from the OP's photos, I have a hard time believing it was assembled by any Stage Hand whether they were Union or Non Union. That was the point I was trying to make. It appears to me that WHOMEVER was in the supervisory position, and their workers, did not have a clue. It is as if they collected some guy's off the street and put them to work. Lastly, yes, there are good workers and bad workers, both Union and Non Union. But, I've found that in a City I'm not familiar with, I'd choose Union Workers over Non Union, because of the Skills and Training they receive. I'm pretty assured I know what I'm getting. That's MY opinion, you are free to have yours Cheers, Hammer , |
For the most part I agree with you. But I was taught 'Never say Never'!
JP
Post by: Mike Babcock on August 05, 2008, 01:15:37 AM
| Charlie Zureki wrote on Sun, 03 August 2008 09:14 |
With all of the issues regarding safety and the Rider Breaches, I am surprised that YOUR truck was ever unloaded. Good Luck, Hammer |
That is a tough question and one I've been asking myself over and over. Ultimately I had to give in to the demands of my employer. Some of these issues I didn't see until later on in the day when I was walking around with a camera. As the day went on, and in the following days after, I know I made a mistake and should have pulled the show, no matter how bad my employers would have hated it. Luckily we all survived and with this thread and the pictures of the other similar thing that did fail, my employers will hear my words a bit more clearly.
Mike
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 05, 2008, 01:42:39 AM
A tornado just came through Crown Point about an hour ago. I wonder how that stage is doing now. Im going to check it out in the morning. The weather channel is saying another is headed our way in about 30 minutes form now.
John, those of course are the same guys you had at the Irish gig. I was told that they brought out the Versaray to this gig in Crown Point and is was unaccepted so they had to bring in a 4888 rig to replace it which im sure got wet in the storm tonight. This info comes first hand from a guy on the crew tonight.
Post by: Mike Babcock on August 05, 2008, 02:04:49 AM
Hopefully Blake Shelton and his crew got out of there in time.
Mike(at)themonitorguy.com
Post by: Nick Aghababian on August 05, 2008, 03:15:23 AM
| Mike Babcock wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:40 |
Hello fellow labrats Had a show yesterday in Crown Point, IN at a county fair. I took a few pictures to show the world some things to look out for when walking up to a gig. Since the majority of it does not deal with audio, I will fully understand if Mac moves this to the basement. I work for an artist who was very insistant about going on with the show. Nothing less than something actually breaking would have stopped them from performing. I admire their attitude of "the show must go on" and "we can't dissapoint our fans", but seriously. My hands were tied on this one, no amount of my explaining safety issues to them persuaded them into cancelling. Granted, nothing failed (at least while we were there), but when I took these pictures it was definitely known that I was taking "before" pictures. On with the fun... #1 From the front |
I'd be pissed too. No front fills with the stacks that wide?!?!?!
Post by: Christian Tepfer on August 05, 2008, 07:29:33 AM
I've seen a "stage" in Germany a good while ago, local speciality:
stage: barrels, wood
roof: potato cages (with vegetable ballast), wood, foil
that abstruse construction looked and felt safe at least.
So if you can't do trussing, stay away from it and stick to material you know!
Post by: John Stoffel on August 05, 2008, 05:14:19 PM
I should mention though it did get kind of scary with the rain and wind that came in last night.
Blake played a very short set as we knew what was coming weather wise.
When we arrived in the morning we saw the "roof" and actually had them add another "truss" section to at least create an apex so the rain would run off.
Had we not had them do that I'm quite sure that with the storm the whole roof would have collapsed.
The whole day for us was a comedy of errors. First, the "stage" then the lack of food that was 20- 30 mins. late. No drinks for the "hands" or us for that matter. Out TM had to bring us some from our band/crew bus.
Dinner was late. Then to top it off our after-show food was eaten by the local police because the promoter couldn't "get it to us" Huh??
Thank God we carry everything except for A/C.
I work for an artist that does not like to disappoint his fans, so I suppose that pushed us to do a show.
That said, should we ever run into one of these situations again, we'd cancel and go down the road.
So we rolled the dice and quite honestly the promoter really dodged a bullet.
John Stoffel
Monitor Engineer
Blake Shelton
PS: there was 2 Local 125 Spot ops at this event. They were not a part of this stage however, they were adamant about trying to get the fair board to really see what was going on there.
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 05, 2008, 07:12:31 PM
I have pictures from this mornings aftermath. They will be uploaded tonight after my gig.
Check back around 11:30 or Midnight Central Time.
BW
Post by: David Buehler on August 05, 2008, 08:57:39 PM
When will people learn?
Buy once, Cry Once, Do it Right!
Post by: Mike Babcock on August 05, 2008, 09:33:01 PM
| David Buehler wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 20:57 |
And this is the exact reason that I challenge anyone to decline a Stageline or any other of the Moble Stages on the market for a show when you compare to these setups. I've seen stuff like this time and time again in my neck of the woods, too When will people learn? Buy once, Cry Once, Do it Right! |
I wouldn't ever decline a Stageline, I just find the lack of flexability in the setup a bit limiting.
Post by: Mike Babcock on August 05, 2008, 09:38:38 PM
| John Stoffel wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 17:14 |
Hey all. The Blake Shelton show did go on as scheduled, and everyone and everything survived. I should mention though it did get kind of scary with the rain and wind that came in last night. Blake played a very short set as we knew what was coming weather wise. When we arrived in the morning we saw the "roof" and actually had them add another "truss" section to at least create an apex so the rain would run off. Had we not had them do that I'm quite sure that with the storm the whole roof would have collapsed. The whole day for us was a comedy of errors. First, the "stage" then the lack of food that was 20- 30 mins. late. No drinks for the "hands" or us for that matter. Out TM had to bring us some from our band/crew bus. Dinner was late. Then to top it off our after-show food was eaten by the local police because the promoter couldn't "get it to us" Huh?? Thank God we carry everything except for A/C. I work for an artist that does not like to disappoint his fans, so I suppose that pushed us to do a show. That said, should we ever run into one of these situations again, we'd cancel and go down the road. So we rolled the dice and quite honestly the promoter really dodged a bullet. John Stoffel Monitor Engineer Blake Shelton PS: there was 2 Local 125 Spot ops at this event. They were not a part of this stage however, they were adamant about trying to get the fair board to really see what was going on there. |
Hey John
Glad you made it through this, you certainly feel my pain. My artists are the same way about dissapointing anyone. They're all honestly shocked at the news that this thing fell over night, hopefully they realize now that their life is worth more than a make up date. I had a couple of the stagehands, especially the one getting autographs early in the day, on rain duty. They had the broom that took 2 hours to find and the squeegee that took another hour to find to release the water from the "roof". I didn't allow them to run the back truss at all.
Did they have the lighting rig working by your show?
Mike
PS, I do remember the "hands" asking me for water, I said to find the promoter. They had no idea who the promoter was.
Post by: Mike Babcock on August 05, 2008, 09:57:53 PM
| imgonetoolong wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 21:44 |
I still think this comes down to who was in charge of this. Was there a promoter or the fair limping thru this by themselves ? It sounds very much like the Clearfield Fair in PA that was also going on last week. The Tarp cover broke, dumping water all over Miranda Lamberts band gear, the stage had holes in it when Foreigner was performing, and DAUGHTRY played thru a PA that would be like going to a high school football game. Bottom line....who are the people responsible for these things ? Promoter ? Fair ? Agents ?.......somebody needs to step up to the plate ...... |
Hey Michael, you need to go to your profile and change your alias to your real name.
In this instance, the fair gave the entertainment section over to a promoter. What responsibility the fair has would have to be dealt with in the courts, I'm sure.
I know I'll never work with them again before I see engineering drawings with certified load ratings, and a maintenance schedule on the equipment and I would pull the plug instantly if I walked in and EVERYTHING wasn't exactly how it was advanced.
Post by: Jim Duyck on August 05, 2008, 09:57:54 PM
Post by: John Stoffel on August 05, 2008, 10:40:43 PM
I just saw the post that it fell last night. That must have been after we left. I'm interested to see if the wind or the rain in the " top" brought it down.
John
Post by: Mike Babcock on August 05, 2008, 10:52:22 PM
| John Stoffel wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 22:40 |
Yes the " lighting rig" was kind of working. I just saw the post that it fell last night. That must have been after we left. I'm interested to see if the wind or the rain in the " top" brought it down. John |
From the PM's I got, it sounds like water related. Broken rear "truss".
Mike
Post by: Patrick Tracy on August 06, 2008, 12:34:35 AM
| Brian Wynn wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 17:12 |
IT FELL LAST NIGHT I have pictures from this mornings aftermath. They will be uploaded tonight after my gig. Check back around 11:30 or Midnight Central Time. BW |
New story with little detail:
http://www.nwi.com/articles/2008/08/04/updates/breaking_news /doc4897a54f3c386939804386.txt
Comment by "Lori" has more that is pertinent.
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 06, 2008, 12:44:55 AM
This is very scary!!
From the back of the stage across the lake.
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 06, 2008, 12:46:29 AM
Getting Closer.
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 06, 2008, 12:47:30 AM
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 06, 2008, 12:48:29 AM
How Sad.
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 06, 2008, 12:49:56 AM
If someone wants to put all of these in a single post please have at it and make them smaller to.
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 06, 2008, 12:51:00 AM
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 06, 2008, 12:52:40 AM
Now lets hear the feedback on these pics.
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 06, 2008, 12:53:49 AM
Post by: Geri O'Neil on August 06, 2008, 12:55:46 AM
| Brian Wynn wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 23:52 |
Last One Now lets hear the feedback on these pics. |
Feedback??
Some shit coming to mind...something about a picture and a thousand words, or something, I can't recall...
Really, I can't find the words...
Something certainly needs to be did, ya'll..
Geri O
Post by: Jordan Wolf on August 06, 2008, 01:26:26 AM
This thread should be made a sticky...or at least the before and after pictures in it. This one will stick in my mind for a long time...
Post by: Silas Pradetto on August 06, 2008, 01:47:55 AM
Unbelievable.
Post by: Clayton Luckie on August 06, 2008, 01:52:55 AM
| Brian Wynn wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 23:52 |
Last One Now lets hear the feedback on these pics. |
To these untrained eyes, it looks like it collapsed under the weight of the water. Please say that nobody was hurt...
cl
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 06, 2008, 02:06:38 AM
| Clayton Luckie wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 00:52 | ||
To these untrained eyes, it looks like it collapsed under the weight of the water. Please say that nobody was hurt... cl |
No injuries reported!!
Post by: Tim Padrick on August 06, 2008, 03:01:30 AM
Post by: Mike Babcock on August 06, 2008, 03:25:47 AM
| Brian Wynn wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 00:52 |
Last One Now lets hear the feedback on these pics. |
Obviously the truss was the weakest link, but what I find
surprising is that the swivel couplers actually held it all
together somehow. And that the stress of the weight of the water
didn't snap the bolt holding the swivel coupler together. I
think if the towers were guyed down properly there would have
been more damage. Somehow, through some sheer luck or stupidity,
their failure to do anything right actually prevented more
damage.
I KNEW I was taking before pictures.
Post by: Christian Tepfer on August 06, 2008, 03:36:36 AM
| Brian Wynn wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 06:52 |
Last One Now lets hear the feedback on these pics. |
Mike knew on Sat, 02 August 2008 16:40 that he was taking "before" pics.
Sorry about this.
This is not possible in Germany after we got new laws and responsibilities.
Post by: Alex Schultz on August 06, 2008, 08:11:20 AM
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/Downloads/powertoys/Xppow ertoys.mspx
Best of Days
Post by: Scott Raymond on August 06, 2008, 08:48:38 AM
| Geri O'Neil wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 23:55 | ||
Feedback?? Some shit coming to mind...something about a picture and a thousand words, or something, I can't recall... Really, I can't find the words... Something certainly needs to be did, ya'll.. Geri O |
Try throwing the word "worth" in there somewhere.
My fear would be that they're off to the hardware store to buy more c-clamps to hold more damaged truss together the next time it goes up.
Post by: Jason Lavoie on August 06, 2008, 09:23:55 AM
| Scott Raymond (Scott R) wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 08:48 |
My fear would be that they're off to the hardware store to buy more c-clamps to hold more damaged truss together the next time it goes up. |
yeah I can hear it now.. "it's ok. the C-clamp just fell off.. just give me 5 minutes and we'll have it back up and running."
but seriously, this is one of those cases where it's actually encouraged to go back to these people and say "I told you so"
I'm sure they're already aware of it, but you need to make sure they know that this wasn't some fluke, that falling down is what this roof was designed for.
Jason
Post by: Jason Ketchem on August 06, 2008, 10:22:27 AM
Stay safe all!
J
Post by: Rob Ottaviano on August 06, 2008, 10:39:42 AM
Peace
Post by: Jeff Babcock on August 06, 2008, 10:49:13 AM
Everything about this is just soooooooo wrong that it seems like a practical joke. Sadly it is not. Even more depressing is that this will happen again from some other joker trying to cut corners and get bottom dollar prices.
Some big fines and some publicity would help to get the word out. Think of the penalties for drunk driving etc, this IMHO is actually even more dangerous as the potential is there to injure a larger number of people.
Post by: Sebastiaan Meijer on August 06, 2008, 11:02:22 AM
Seriously: I actually did cancel a few shows under unsafe conditions like the one mentioned here. Most often the organizer gets some time to fix a hazardous situation and in case of local (more rural) environments the local "stage builders" will fix it. Like Christian I've been on stages built of cubic meter pallets filled with potatoes or apples that were a bit odd but solid as a rock. I prefer those over the pictures....
Sebas
Post by: Tom Bourke on August 06, 2008, 12:08:12 PM
TO me it looks like the whole thing should be sent off to the scrap yard. Some one with more experience than I can answer but my understanding is if some thing is involved with an "incident" then it has to be considered stressed and no longer safe to use. I think this applies even tho it may look ok to the naked eye.
Post by: Mac Kerr on August 06, 2008, 12:17:01 PM
| Tom Bourke wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 12:08 |
This reminded me of the "C" clamp pic from the before pictures. If you look at the blowup I THINK I see a "C" clamp that slipped off. I am guessing that is just what gave first. I am sure there were other things very close to failure too! TO me it looks like the whole thing should be sent off to the scrap yard. Some one with more experience than I can answer but my understanding is if some thing is involved with an "incident" then it has to be considered stressed and no longer safe to use. I think this applies even tho it may look ok to the naked eye. |
What I see is that the triangle truss separated from the end flange, causing the collapse. I can't see the C-clamp, but if the blowup is of the flanges it was holding together, they still seem to be together. This event was such a gross example of bad structural engineering that trying to place the blame on any single element is speculation at best.
The whole thing should be sent to the scrapyard, but that was probably true before the event.
Mac
Post by: Tom Bourke on August 06, 2008, 01:09:59 PM
I do have one question.
CAN a stage system like this be safe? Given the following:
Unstressed truss and scaffold to start.
Proper sized truss, scaffold, and connectors.
Proper pads to sit on and complete structure under the deck and stairs.
Enough ballast and wires.
Construction that limits the water buildup.
Any thing else I am missing?
Post by: Iain_Macdonald on August 06, 2008, 01:25:38 PM
| Tom Bourke wrote |
TO me it looks like the whole thing should be sent off to the scrap yard. Some one with more experience than I can answer but my understanding is if some thing is involved with an "incident" then it has to be considered stressed and no longer safe to use. I think this applies even tho it may look ok to the naked eye. |
Tom,
I asked James Thomas Ltd., that question a few years ago. The reply was, that if you drop it from the back of a truck, don't use it, and send it back for crack testing. If it's overstressed, like the roof failure, or else, even if it's just a suspicion that it was, then the whole lot is scrap.
Iain.
Post by: Craig Leerman on August 06, 2008, 01:32:02 PM
Looking at the various pictures, it seems to me that the pool of water in the tarp is at least 8' wide, and over 1 foot deep, or a minimum of about 1,000 gallons of water. Thats over 8,300 POUNDS of water! If the pool of water is 10' in diameter, its over 15,000 POUNDS of water
I'm amazed that the tarp didn't rip.
Post by: Jeff Babcock on August 06, 2008, 01:37:44 PM
| Eric Deweese wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 19:59 |
that "truss" is actually made of free standing ham radio tower sections, not even designed for a horizontal load in the first place!!!! |
I missed your comment the first read through.... that makes sense now why that "truss" looked so cheap and flimsy.
Seriously, these guys need to have their operation shut down before somebody dies.
Post by: Charlie Zureki on August 06, 2008, 01:47:45 PM
| Tom Bourke wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 12:09 |
After looking at it I agree that what I was seeing is the flange and not a "C" clamp. And like I said in my post any thing on the stage could have failed first. Looking at all the sagging in the before pictures I figure EVERY weld on the truss and scaffold has been damaged. I do have one question. CAN a stage system like this be safe? Given the following: Unstressed truss and scaffold to start. Proper sized truss, scaffold, and connectors. Proper pads to sit on and complete structure under the deck and stairs. Enough ballast and wires. Construction that limits the water buildup. Any thing else I am missing? |
Tom, if you followed the list of proposed changes, it wouldn't be "a stage system like this", it would be closer to the correct type of staging that should be used.
Another question not directly related to this posting:
Why is it that some people seem to feel the need, whether budgetary or convenience to "BUILD" their own Stage? To reinvent the wheel? Since time began, ENGINEERS have been reinventing the wheel, and have provided us with the safe staging and truss technologies we have today.
Their are PLENTY of Stages, in all styles and sizes that can be rented.
Cheers,
Hammer
Post by: Randy Pence on August 06, 2008, 01:57:51 PM
Post by: Jeff Babcock on August 06, 2008, 02:05:45 PM
| Charlie Zureki wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 13:47 |
Why is it that some people seem to feel the need, whether budgetary or convenience to "BUILD" their own Stage? Their are PLENTY of Stages, in all styles and sizes that can be rented. Cheers, Hammer |
In my experience it has been a cost issue. Staging is a pain, and companies charge well for it to offset not only cost but the hassle of building it, storing it, and transporting it. GOOD staging can get expensive, especially for low budget shows.
People don't like the idea of renting a stage that costs more than the PA, and inevitably the local Bob Vila wannabe decides that a bunch of lumber and some cordless drills is going to save money. I am more tolerant of this at indoor venues. Outside can get scary, especially when a roof is involved.
Post by: Tom Bourke on August 06, 2008, 02:38:03 PM
Post by: Scott Raymond on August 06, 2008, 03:21:55 PM
| Tom Bourke wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 12:09 |
After looking at it I agree that what I was seeing is the flange and not a "C" clamp. And like I said in my post any thing on the stage could have failed first. Looking at all the sagging in the before pictures I figure EVERY weld on the truss and scaffold has been damaged. I do have one question. CAN a stage system like this be safe? Given the following: Unstressed truss and scaffold to start. Proper sized truss, scaffold, and connectors. Proper pads to sit on and complete structure under the deck and stairs. Enough ballast and wires. Construction that limits the water buildup. Any thing else I am missing? |
Tom,
If you look at the light bars it appears that the clamp was on the upstage truss. The upstage light bars are closer to the truss than the downstage bars in Mike's pics. I can't find the upstage cans on Brian's pics so I assume they had taken those off at some point. All the upstage truss did fold up though. As Randy mentions the Stage could have been down before the rain collected in the roof. I can see that as being possible as there was a lot of wind damage described in the news report. A high wind coming in from upstage would up put a lot of downward pressure on the roof as well as toward the upstage side. If it had blown from downstage you'd expect the whole thing to lift and go over. Brian can probably tell us how the wind and rain came from the storm but it's not really the point anyway.
I can't speak for anyone else but even if it was a proper roof structure I'd be very leery of something bolted to scaff. You have to rake it to shed rain and that leaves you to the mercy of the wind with no options.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 06, 2008, 04:19:12 PM
Look at the plastic chairs and the small tent over monitor world. They are still standing. I doubt the chairs would be so nicely set if they'd taken a significant wind hit.
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
Post by: Randy Pence on August 06, 2008, 04:45:42 PM
Post by: Scott Raymond on August 06, 2008, 05:04:34 PM
| Tim McCulloch wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 15:19 |
Scott- Look at the plastic chairs and the small tent over monitor world. They are still standing. I doubt the chairs would be so nicely set if they'd taken a significant wind hit. Have fun, good luck. Tim Mc |
Probably true Tim. I had noticed that the tent was tied down, but it looks like only a few chairs are out of place and that may well have been people caused. I'd noticed that the downstage truss "appears" (might be an illusion) to be bowed toward the audience but it's hard to tell for sure. I would expect it to be failed toward the roof (centerstage) but it may just be due to the scaff twisting as the upstage folded.
Post by: Mike Kivett on August 06, 2008, 05:05:27 PM
The roof slowly took on water and started sagging. The "truss" and scaffolds slowly, surely and gently started bending and flexing downward. This lowered the newly-formed "water bucket" down until the stage took on the weight.
At that point, we see the aftermath. The only possible good thing about this is that if there had been people on stage, they would have had plenty of time to vacate the area.
That said, I'd have been out of there sooner than that!
Post by: Rain Jaudon on August 06, 2008, 05:20:16 PM
Post by: Dan Kebschull on August 06, 2008, 05:52:13 PM
One wild hookah pipe or one floating ember from someone's incense and POOF!
Post by: Randy Frierson on August 06, 2008, 05:58:04 PM
Randy Please be careful and point out safety concerns and make them fix them till you are satisfied..maybe we all should carry around pictures of all these failures to emphazize our position...
Post by: Randy Pence on August 06, 2008, 06:23:10 PM
Post by: Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk on August 06, 2008, 06:57:23 PM
The other incident involved a marginal deck, and after much arguing and yelling, my artist said they were OK with it, show went on. When the bass player went through the deck with one leg up to his knee during the second last song, it wasn't a good scene. Minor injuries, but, could have been worse. The headliner refused to go on, end of show. For the price of some screws, 12 sheets of 3/4" plywood, and an hour of time, this could have been avoided.
For me, I will not accept a home built stage anymore. If they can't be bothered to hire in even a stageline, I tend to get leery. You see a lot of this shit in smaller centers around here, and it sucks.
Safety is not an option, it is mandatory as far as I am concerned. There is no show that is worth injury to anyone.....performers, crew, audience.
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on August 06, 2008, 07:01:49 PM
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/36447/9721/
When you're talking about tens of thousands of pounds high in the air being rigged in an unsafe manner, the dangers are far higher. For example, that PVC structure above I would have no problem standing under while bitching out the person responsible, while you would catch me no-where near the roof from the 'Night Vision' festival, even before it started looking like an Italian landmark. I've already had one roof system fall on my head due to me not speaking out about what I considered to be unsafe conditions... it won't happen again.
Post by: Stuart Hogg on August 06, 2008, 07:45:44 PM
(Edit - I was referring to the guy on the tapestry-laden Stage o' Death a few posts ago. A lot of replies came in before I got this one written...)
Post by: Rain Jaudon on August 07, 2008, 12:03:21 AM
| Stuart Hogg wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 18:45 |
I wonder if they're using the two pairs of Bose sticks as a Dave Rat-style dual PA? (Edit - I was referring to the guy on the tapestry-laden Stage o' Death a few posts ago. A lot of replies came in before I got this one written...) |
Stuart -
Not sure the guy running that stage actually knows he was close to it..
Would imagine he had vocals in the inner ones and instruments in the outer ones.
(Just my wild guess) I have one that I use for rooms where conventional PA either doesn't fit or excites the room too much. I pan vocals hard left and instruments hard right. Left out of the mixer goes to CH1 of the BOSE, Right out of the mixer goes to CH2 of the BOSE.
I then can at least set a preset EQ for the vocals and raise the gain before feedback. And then submix from there.
Post by: Stuart Hogg on August 07, 2008, 06:57:08 AM
I am curious, though, about the companies who keep putting these stages up. SURELY it's cheaper to buy decent truss once, rather than replacing cheap truss every other gig? (Even if they reuse the damaged truss, it can only be so many times before it's completely unusable...)
Post by: Charlie Zureki on August 07, 2008, 07:19:00 AM
| Jeff Babcock wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 13:05 | ||
In my experience it has been a cost issue. Staging is a pain, and companies charge well for it to offset not only cost but the hassle of building it, storing it, and transporting it. GOOD staging can get expensive, especially for low budget shows. People don't like the idea of renting a stage that costs more than the PA, and inevitably the local Bob Vila wannabe decides that a bunch of lumber and some cordless drills is going to save money. I am more tolerant of this at indoor venues. Outside can get scary, especially when a roof is involved. |
Hey Jeff,
I understand Completely. I meant it as a Rhetorical Question. The answer as we all know is that, if they cannot afford to rent a proper and safe Stage with roof, then they really cannot afford to put on a Proper and SAFE Show.
So bottom line.... Greed, or Underfunding from the start. And,at the sake of Performers, Techs and Audience Safety.
Cheers,
Hammer
Post by: Tom Reid on August 07, 2008, 11:03:12 AM
| Charlie Zureki wrote on Thu, 07 August 2008 06:19 | ||||
Hey Jeff, I understand Completely. I meant it as a Rhetorical Question. The answer as we all know is that, if they cannot afford to rent a proper and safe Stage with roof, then they really cannot afford to put on a Proper and SAFE Show. So bottom line.... Greed, or Underfunding from the start. And,at the sake of Performers, Techs and Audience Safety. Cheers, Hammer |
Not to mention taking JOBS away from the local people who do this right.
Future jobs too. Since now, out of town bozos put a big steaming hunk of poo in my backyard.
Post by: Luke Sheridan on August 07, 2008, 11:35:01 AM
| Stuart Hogg wrote on Thu, 07 August 2008 00:45 |
I wonder if they're using the two pairs of Bose sticks as a Dave Rat-style dual PA? (Edit - I was referring to the guy on the tapestry-laden Stage o' Death a few posts ago. A lot of replies came in before I got this one written...) |
I'd hardly call that a stage of death, from the picture it looks like it's the industrial style scaffolding pipe that's been properly clamped, it should be fairly sturdy. While the center light bar is wonky, it looks like a steel cable run through a pipe, with two steel straps holding it up. Obviously the whole setup is hokey but it's more of a joke compared to the bullshit we've seen on the other stages in this thread. Furthermore, it's clearly some sort of home grown show, and not in the same league as the large productions for the other shows here.
Post by: Clayton Luckie on August 07, 2008, 11:45:09 AM
cl
Post by: SteveKirby on August 07, 2008, 06:59:23 PM
| Clayton Luckie wrote on Thu, 07 August 2008 10:45 |
The most dangerous thing to me about the tie-dye stage is that its most likely not flame resistant. Its a big ball of kindling. cl |
Depends on whether it's cotton or polyester. Either way it's not exactly kindling. It would take a bit to get it going. Cotton naturally has some reasonably flame retardance. Polyester has an even higher ignition temperature. But, once you got it going, you would be in trouble. Hot burning plastic spewing toxic vapors and dripping molten globules all over folks. That would be seriously nasty. Saving grace is that the stage is low enough that folks could probably jump away from it easily enough.
Not that I'm advocating non flame retardant materials in any way.
But I agree with the above posters that it's the large scale endeavors that are more dangerous. Especially given that the punters probably expect that it was professionally done and is therefore safe. Even to the extent of the yahoos that climb on it.
When a hundred pounds falls on you, it hurts. When a couple thousand pounds falls on you, you have a very bad day, as the pilots put it.
Post by: Jared Scott on August 08, 2008, 02:16:50 AM
| Luke Sheridan wrote on Thu, 07 August 2008 10:35 |
I'd hardly call that a stage of death, from the picture it looks like it's the industrial style scaffolding pipe that's been properly clamped, it should be fairly sturdy. |
I see some clamps, but other pieces look like they're held together with lashings (pretty crappy looking one's at that). I'm sure it would be stable enough until the wind kicked up. I learned that lesson the hard way as a boy scout, it's not easy to sleep with no protection from a -20 degree wind chill except a sleeping bag (lean-to didn't survive a wind gust)
Either way, this thread has shown me some good reasons to say "no"
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 08, 2008, 03:28:34 PM
Right before they left I mentioned the Lake County fair stage to them. Just to see if they inspected that stage before it fell in on it self. They told me that they did inspect it and found a few small problems but nothing major. I commented on the "C" clamps and the straps holding the structure together. They smiled and said "ya its probably wrong but it's just a temporary structure so there is nothing we can do about it".
So that night the stage fell and as you know I took pictures the next morning. I asked a production guy on site if they were inspected. They responded with a "Yes but they didn't ask any questions or have any comment's" so the show went on and the stage fell with no injuries reported.
What is the point of the inspector's if they don't do anything to fix the problems.
Post by: Charlie Zureki on August 08, 2008, 04:02:36 PM
| Brian Wynn wrote on Fri, 08 August 2008 14:28 |
So im at my gig in Crown Point the other night and a Crown Point Fire/Rescue vehicle pulls up in the parking lot. A city inspector and a state inspector gets out of the vehicle and introduces themselves to me. They walked the stage area and the grounds for the event. They found that the tent we were in didn't have enough exits installed and our ground rods needed to be 8 feet deep and lastly we needed a grounding rod on the stage structure. Really not a big deal they said just get it fixed in the next few days and they would be happy. Right before they left I mentioned the Lake County fair stage to them. Just to see if they inspected that stage before it fell in on it self. They told me that they did inspect it and found a few small problems but nothing major. I commented on the "C" clamps and the straps holding the structure together. They smiled and said "ya its probably wrong but it's just a temporary structure so there is nothing we can do about it". So that night the stage fell and as you know I took pictures the next morning. I asked a production guy on site if they were inspected. They responded with a "Yes but they didn't ask any questions or have any comment's" so the show went on and the stage fell with no injuries reported. What is the point of the inspector's if they don't do anything to fix the problems. |
Brian,
It was clearly a case of ignorance on their part. With the "Temporary Stage" being in kind of a vague area for some Inspectors, they are probably unaware of the Regulations.
I've seen the battle (or lack of) over whos actual jurisdiction it falls.
The Regulations are quite clear and thorough, regarding Stages and Roofs. Osha says SO.
Cheers,
Hammer
Post by: Simon Ryder on August 08, 2008, 07:09:01 PM
The crew rang me for advice and permission to cancel the show and described the "stage" to me.
The stage was a flat bed truck with a roof but no sides. the floor was metal and an inch deep in water. Rain was gusting across almost horizontally and covering everything. With an unearthed metal structure, my crew were deeply unhappy about running power on such a stage, as were the bands. Also the promoter had provided no FOH shelter.
We took the call and canceled the show. The promoter was very unhappy and screamed, shouted and threatened legal action but we held firm and maintained our stance on such important health and safety grounds. We were also backed up by the fact that not one of the five bands due to play that day was prepared to go on that stage either.
In my experience such incidents are very rare in the UK but, like everywhere else, they do happen occasionally.
Post by: Derek Shawver on August 08, 2008, 09:18:47 PM
| Charlie Zureki wrote on Fri, 08 August 2008 15:02 | ||
Brian, It was clearly a case of ignorance on their part. With the "Temporary Stage" being in kind of a vague area for some Inspectors, they are probably unaware of the Regulations. I've seen the battle (or lack of) over whos actual jurisdiction it falls. The Regulations are quite clear and thorough, regarding Stages and Roofs. Osha says SO. Cheers, Hammer |
Ignorance, mixed with a dose of laziness. Even if they weren't clear on regulations of temporary stages, most of the dangers we saw posted in the "before" pics are common sense errors. It doesn't take a structural engineer to see how poorly and unsafe this stage was constructed. If they were doing their job right and not being lazy-asses, they would have crawled all over that stage and found the errors. IMO, if you do that line of work for a living(inspector), you'd think you would have an eye for such potential hazards. All of the hazards on this stage should have stuck out like sore thumbs to these inspectors, whether they knew the regulations or not. Regardless if it was their jurisdiction or not, they still could have done/said something for safety sake. Hey Brian, did they give you a business card? A link to this thread should be emailed to them.
Post by: Charlie Zureki on August 08, 2008, 10:05:58 PM
Hey Derek,
Believe me when I say that I agree with you whole-heartedly. Ignorance, Laziness,(Inspectors case) or possibly Political, being that it was a County Fair.
As I stated in a previous post on this thread, you can always call OSHA with a complaint. They'll come out! If they find any major violations, the fines will be huge.
Cheers,
Hammer
Post by: Jason Ketchem on August 09, 2008, 12:01:26 AM
| Brian Wynn wrote on Fri, 08 August 2008 14:28 |
So im at my gig in Crown Point the other night and a Crown Point Fire/Rescue vehicle pulls up in the parking lot. A city inspector and a state inspector gets out of the vehicle and introduces themselves to me. They walked the stage area and the grounds for the event. They found that the tent we were in didn't have enough exits installed and our ground rods needed to be 8 feet deep and lastly we needed a grounding rod on the stage structure. Really not a big deal they said just get it fixed in the next few days and they would be happy. Right before they left I mentioned the Lake County fair stage to them. Just to see if they inspected that stage before it fell in on it self. They told me that they did inspect it and found a few small problems but nothing major. I commented on the "C" clamps and the straps holding the structure together. They smiled and said "ya its probably wrong but it's just a temporary structure so there is nothing we can do about it". So that night the stage fell and as you know I took pictures the next morning. I asked a production guy on site if they were inspected. They responded with a "Yes but they didn't ask any questions or have any comment's" so the show went on and the stage fell with no injuries reported. What is the point of the inspector's if they don't do anything to fix the problems. |
Thats what happens when you have a volunteer fire dept. If they had a paid fire dept they might have an inspector that knows a little something.
Post by: Curt Sorensen on August 09, 2008, 01:42:57 AM
I've worked with volunteer firefighters who bring all the integrity and knowledge to their work that's imaginable. You could just as easily assume that because someone is paid, that they aren't motivated to excellence, and you'd be wrong there as well.
Post by: Charlie Zureki on August 09, 2008, 08:01:00 AM
| Curt Sorensen wrote on Sat, 09 August 2008 00:42 |
Hi, I've worked with volunteer firefighters who bring all the integrity and knowledge to their work that's imaginable. You could just as easily assume that because someone is paid, that they aren't motivated to excellence, and you'd be wrong there as well. |
Curt,
I agree, we can't make blanket statements about Professional abilities, qualifications or even Motivations or lack of. Every situation is different.
Most States protect Inspectors through Errors and Omissions clauses. It's a bit ridiculous, when the State also holds the Architects and Engineers accountable for the same infractions.
So basically, an Inspector is not Liable if he makes a tragic mistake in the course of his Job. Although, if enough events occur, he could face various charges, but, he'll most often be only fired from the position.
Cheers,
Hammer
Post by: Andy Peters on August 09, 2008, 12:13:04 PM
| Brian Wynn wrote on Fri, 08 August 2008 12:28 |
What is the point of the inspector's (watch your apostrophes) if they don't do anything to fix the problems. |
There's a shitty club here in Tucson that flies its SP2s from the handles with chains, plus some eye bolts through the wood attached to guy wires. Both boxes are positioned such that the patrons can walk underneath.
I pointed this out to the girl who does sound there (as much as one can "do" "Sount" in that shithole, anyway) and she said that the speakers were installed like that by the club's previous owners and that everything was "inspected" when the business was sold to the current owners.
It's still pretty awful, and truth be told, they have no business doing shows there.
-a
Post by: Tom Reid on August 09, 2008, 01:03:58 PM
| Andy Peters wrote on Sat, 09 August 2008 11:13 | ||
There's a shitty club here in Tucson that flies its SP2s from the handles with chains, plus some eye bolts through the wood attached to guy wires. Both boxes are positioned such that the patrons can walk underneath. I pointed this out to the girl who does sound there (as much as one can "do" "Sount" in that shithole, anyway) and she said that the speakers were installed like that by the club's previous owners and that everything was "inspected" when the business was sold to the current owners. It's still pretty awful, and truth be told, they have no business doing shows there. -a |
I leased a large entertainment venue in South Haven IN.
There's a long thread on this in the basement.
I paid for repairs to a point.
I had inspectors from every industry tell me (or the landlord) what was wrong.
My team worked for three months to make a building safe and clean.
Local inspectors 'passed' the club with a non-functional sprinkler system.
I shut it down.
It's still not open.
Post by: Charlie Zureki on August 09, 2008, 01:38:57 PM
| Tom Reid wrote on Sat, 09 August 2008 12:03 | ||||
I leased a large entertainment venue in South Haven IN. There's a long thread on this in the basement. I paid for repairs to a point. I had inspectors from every industry tell me (or the landlord) what was wrong. My team worked for three months to make a building safe and clean. Local inspectors 'passed' the club with a non-functional sprinkler system. I shut it down. It's still not open. |
Tom,
They're probably the same donkey Inspectors that allowed that Crap Stage with Roof in Crown Point.
I think this Thread reminds people that they need to look out for their own safety. And, if something doesn't seem right, speak up.
I don't trust too many people with MY personal safety. But, I do have to trust my own judgement.
Cheers,
Hammer
Post by: Matt Collins on August 09, 2008, 03:46:54 PM
My first thought was that these were photos from the Chinese Olympics opening ceremonies
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on August 09, 2008, 04:50:26 PM
| Matt Collins wrote on Sat, 09 August 2008 12:46 |
| My first thought was that these were photos from the Chinese Olympics opening ceremonies |
Sorry Matt, THIS pic is from the Chinese Olympics. Those other pics are the product of American ingenuity
Post by: Charlie Zureki on August 09, 2008, 04:54:18 PM
Hammer
Post by: Alex Schultz on August 09, 2008, 08:39:06 PM
| Pascal Pincosy wrote on Sat, 09 August 2008 15:50 | ||
Sorry Matt, THIS pic is from the Chinese Olympics. Those other pics are the product of American ingenuity |
Yeah, very cool stuff. The stunner is, most of the effects were human powered - the rising/falling blocks was particularly impressive.
Post by: Craig Leerman on August 11, 2008, 03:47:01 AM
| Jason Ketchem wrote on Fri, 08 August 2008 21:01 |
Thats what happens when you have a volunteer fire dept. If they had a paid fire dept they might have an inspector that knows a little something. |
Thats a pretty ignorant statement. In most areas, a volunteer fire department is trained to EXACTLY THE SAME STANDARDS as a paid dept. In some areas, volunteer firefighters and medics ARE PAID to work for "volunteer" departments, and in a lot of places, the volunteer firefighter or medic who shows up to help you may in fact be a PAID DEPARTMENT member who is volunteering on their own time with the local department where they live.
Having a volunteer fire dept in you area does more than provide you with fire and medical response, but lowers your insurance rates and figures into the tax structure and bond rating of the town, city, or county they serve. These folks are indeed PROFESSIONALS, just not paid money.
There are many PAID inspectors who screw up on their job. Just look at all the large cranes that have fallen recently in NY, and Texas. Those were all inspected by PAID GOVT EMPLOYEES. Here in Vegas we have had a lot of accidents and quite a few construction deaths in the last 2 years. One Union even walked off a large job on the strip stating numerous safety violations, and Las Vegas has some of the best trained and paid inspectors in the country!
The main problem with inspectors in our industry, is that there are many different codes that pertain to "temporary" structures, event power, and festivals and fairs and carnivals, and these are usually different in some way that the standard codes that pertain to regular structures.
Unless an inspector is trained in the differences and trained to look out for the things they normally don't have to deal with, they are going to miss a lot of stuff, and in a few cases, will wrongly assume that the contractor who is providing the temporary stuff is following the correct codes and ordinances. This is going to happen no matter if they are paid or volunteers.
Some of the other problems that folks have touched on in this thread is that many people just don't know who to call when they see a violation, or safety hazard.
And of course, many folks just don't call when they see things because they want the company doing the show to fail, so they can bid on the next one! Do you really want somebody to get injured or killed just so you can bid on a show?
The general public may not report things because they either don't recognize the hazard exists, or they simply don't want to get involved.
If you see ANY LIFE SAFETY ISSUES on a show you should report them to the show immediately. If they don't want to address the safety issues, then contact the fire inspectors, or the building inspectors of the city or county the event is in. If you are unsure of who or how to contact the right folks, then call the NON EMERGENCY NUMBER for the dispatch center in your area, and they will get you in touch with the right folks.
Here is a perfect example of nobody reporting an obvious Life Safety violation. Here is a picture of what I saw a few weeks ago at my local grocery store in the evening. The sign on the door reads "FIRE EXIT Do Not Block"
After taking some pictures of the "exits", I went to find a manager to report the problem. The few workers at the front of the store blew me off stating there was "no management on duty". I said "No problem, I'll just call the fire inspector over here right now and you can explain to your boss why the store was inspected, and why the large fine was imposed"
As I started to push buttons on my cell phone, I was quickly stopped and miraculously a manager was brought out. I identified the problem and explained it was against the law to block an emergency exit. She stated it was their standard practice in the evenings so people would not steal. I told her that she needed to unblock the exits and explain to management that it was against the law or I would report the violation. I even gave her the "HELLOOOOOO! What do you think the sign is there for????"
The store has no exits blocked since our discussion.
The sad part is that while I was shopping there, I saw at least 25 ADULTS walk right past the blocked exits, unaware or unconcerned for their own safety. As I rarely shop in the evening, I have no idea how long they have been blocking exits, or how many hundreds or thousands of folks have walked on by, and not said anything.
Post by: Duncan McLennan on August 11, 2008, 10:14:09 AM
Post by: Jason Lavoie on August 11, 2008, 11:14:55 AM
as for the people who didn't say anything. so many people think that if you're not in a crowded nightclub that fires are easy to get away from..
Jason
Post by: Jeff Babcock on August 11, 2008, 04:16:15 PM
However.....
Surprise surprise, TV tower sections were used as "truss".
Needless to say I made sure that no lights or PA were suspended from that.The roof..... well, first the "truss" for the roof was just laying up there... ie NOT bolted or otherwise connected in any way to anything. A windstorm would have blown the roof clean off. Thankfully there wasn't much wind.
Secondly, there wasn't enough support in the roof between the fact that it wasn't real truss and that the spans too far apart. So the stage builder cut holes in the tarp so that water wouldn't pool up on the roof and collapse it. Guess where these holes were..... RIGHT OVER BACKLINE!
So every time it rained, water was pouring down on the back of the stage in a steady stream.It poured rain several times and only a very small section of the "covered" stage ended up not getting soaked, thanks to these holes. Fortunately it didn't rain during any actual performances and no major damage happened.
As I have said before, I can usually tolerate a homemade stage, but roofs scare me. People vastly underestimate the danger involved.
Post by: Ian Hunt on August 11, 2008, 05:15:34 PM
| Edline Edmond wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 13:30 |
Were is the duck tape that helps hold up the roof? |
Stuck to the ryder possibly?