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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Craig Smith on August 02, 2014, 04:02:22 PM
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What do you say when your friend goes out and buys a bunch of Behringer equipment and then asks you if it's good?
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What do you say when your friend goes out and buys a bunch of Behringer equipment and then asks you if it's good?
Well, it's better than Kustom...
Truth be told, I'd be as happy with Behringer speakers as I would be with JBL JRX/Eon or Mackie Thump. And excepting build/sound quality, I tend to like the functionality and feature set on most of their electronics over much of the competition. I'd be a bigger fan of the DCX2496 if only they weren't such a POS in build quality. For the small format digital, my personal preference is the X32 but I wouldn't put it in typical Behringer build quality class.
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I would listen to it in its intended use before passing judgement.
Steve.
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I would listen to it in its intended use before passing judgement.
Always good advice.
We're talking about their lowest end equipment, worse than EONs but better than the Yamaha BR speakers and powered mixer she was using. But it's just for an upstart band so it doesn't really matter. It's just an awkward question for me. But the talent is more important than the equipment.
I did notice that Behringer's website says they have "one of the lowest product failure rates in the industry". That was a surprise.
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I bought a B analog mixer and several rack items when I was just starting. They got the job done and I upgraded one piece at a time. No failures with any of it. Have never used, or even heard their speakers tho.
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What do you say when your friend goes out and buys a bunch of Behringer equipment and then asks you if it's good?
How good of a friend is he? ::)
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What do you say when your friend goes out and buys a bunch of Behringer equipment and then asks you if it's good?
You pat him on the back and tell him what a smart guy he is for investing in affordable equipment that will allow him a better profit from his gigs.
Most people don't her the difference anyway. ::)
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This aint your old Behringer...
Things have gotten better from Behringer as of late, we all know the X32 is now widely accepted as downright decent console, and quite frankly some of their other stuff is not as bad as it used to be, I would say that it all depends on the gear that they have chosen.
I mean its certainly not the best stuff in the world but you get a pretty good bang for your buck. As long as your expectations are in the right place, they make a decent product.
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You keep your mouth shut and wish him good luck. He bought what he could afford, his money, his life, his bed to lay in. If he wants to believe marketing hype about the number of burgers sold so be it. What he won't read is about the burgers sold that had one bite taken from them and were thrown in the shit can.
And by the way. The much maligned EON is a more than capable powered box when used as intended.
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Lots of him and he in these replies considering Craig already said she. Does anyone bother to read all the posts? ;)
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Lots of him and he in these replies considering Craig already said she. Does anyone bother to read all the posts? ;)
I don't, especially about subjects like this...
JR
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[qsometir=John Roberts {JR} link=topic=150829.msg1383194#msg1383194 date=1407028574]
I don't, especially about subjects like this...
JR
[/quote]
A friend Will tell them what they need to hear, sometimes not what they want to hear. Behringer new is not better than quality used gear. The worst thing to do to a budding musician is put them with equipment that does not truly reproduce how they really sound.
The x32 is the only exception, but of course in that case they had to Buy a great manufacturer to build a decent product.
their other stuff is a crappy knock off of decent equipment they copy.
friends don't let friends drive Behringer
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Yes, tell the friend that there are better options, some for the same money. If they are a real friend, then you show/teach them how to get the best performance out of what they have, and why the higher quality stuff is really a better purchase.
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Ignore the gear. It isn't all about the gear. Help her drive her abilities forward on the kit available.
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And by the way. The much maligned EON is a more than capable powered box when used as intended.
It is indeed. I used a couple for a charity gig a few weeks ago (with a Mackie VLZ 2404 mixer if anyone wants to laugh at some other cheap gear). They worked fine.
Whilst I'm commenting here, I might as well comment on the Mackie.
I was expecting it to be terrible based on popular opinion but was happy to use it as it was a charity event and all of the equipment was borrowed (mainly from a local school).
In fact, I was impressed with the Mackie and would go as far to say that it could probably handle 90% of everything I have done over the last 30 years - and I would have loved something like that 30 years ago!
I can't comment on the build quality, particularly how that relates to robustness and reliability, but as a piece of equipment, it worked as expected and sounded fine.
Obvioulsy it would be nice if everyone could afford top of the range equipment, but the fact is that many can't and these lower end manufacturers produce equipment which gets the job done. As long as you know their limitations and stick within them, the likes of Behringer, Mackie, etc. can be used effectively.
And it's wise to remember that everyone has to start somewhere and more often than not, this is with little or no budget.
There is no moral high ground in telling someone that their gear sucks. The noble thing to do is help them out with advice about how to get the best out of what they have.
Steve.
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It is indeed. I used a couple for a charity gig a few weeks ago (with a Mackie VLZ 2404 mixer if anyone wants to laugh at some other cheap gear). They worked fine.
Whilst I'm commenting here, I might as well comment on the Mackie.
I was expecting it to be terrible based on popular opinion but was happy to use it as it was a charity event and all of the equipment was borrowed (mainly from a local school).
In fact, I was impressed with the Mackie and would go as far to say that it could probably handle 90% of everything I have done over the last 30 years - and I would have loved something like that 30 years ago!
I can't comment on the build quality, particularly how that relates to robustness and reliability, but as a piece of equipment, it worked as expected and sounded fine.
Obvioulsy it would be nice if everyone could afford top of the range equipment, but the fact is that many can't and these lower end manufacturers produce equipment which gets the job done. As long as you know their limitations and stick within them, the likes of Behringer, Mackie, etc. can be used effectively.
And it's wise to remember that everyone has to start somewhere and more often than not, this is with little or no budget.
There is no moral high ground in telling someone that their gear sucks. The noble thing to do is help them out with advice about how to get the best out of what they have.
Steve.
I think a lot of this simply falls to "you gotta start somewhere." The important thing is to not make multiple lateral moves as you expand/improve your inventory. You can make the same mistakes and do the same acoustic/audio experiments on cheap gear or expensive gear, makes little difference.
Steve, your point about the Mackie whatevermodelitwas is well taken. Even relatively "affordable" gear can give better/louder/lighter sound these days than comparable kit we were using 30 years ago.
It's a great time to be in audio. :)
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I think a lot of this simply falls to "you gotta start somewhere." The important thing is to not make multiple lateral moves as you expand/improve your inventory.
That is a good point. Once you have the funds to upgrade, it would be silly to go from bottom of the range Mackie to a slightly better Mackie when better manufaturers, even if second hand, are available for the same money.
Steve, your point about the Mackie whatevermodelitwas is well taken,
I think the fact that I remembered its model No. shows that I wasn't disappointed with it!
It's a great time to be in audio.
I think it is. I have been out of it for a while and getting back into it, getting to grips with digital mixers. Initially I was sceptical but now I'm a big fan.
Steve.
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What do you say when your friend goes out and buys a bunch of Behringer equipment and then asks you if it's good?
As someone who is trying to sell and replace all the Behringer stuff I bought trying to save money when I was getting started, I think she'll figure out on her own if it's working for her or not. I have friends who are full-time professional players who use Behringer speakers/power amps with a Soundcraft mixer for their small bar rig. They make them sound OK.
Since it's already purchased why not just say "It will work for you for now( assuming it WILL work for now), but if you decide to upgrade I can help you find stuff that will sound even better."
At some point she's bound to ask you what she can do to sound better and that's your opportunity to say, "well you might want to consider getting better speakers/amps or whatever it is she bought."
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A Mackie SR24.4 VLZ is not even remotely the worst mixer I've ever used. The original first version EON 15 is maybe not the worst speaker I've ever had to use but definitely very close. The smaller and newer versions aren't as bad. I've had good luck with some Behringer kit and still use some of it occasionally but I've had terrible luck with several DEQ2496's, most unreliable pieces I've ever had. X32 is doing very well for me.
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I've had some good luck with Behringer stuff, provided that I set my expectations low. The church I volunteer at uses their mics and speakers as monitors weekly for over 5+ years and they haven't quit yet. The only thing I don't like are their rack EQ's as they are very hissy, would rather stick a dbx 231 in its place if I was that tight on money.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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A Mackie SR24.4 VLZ is not even remotely the worst mixer I've ever used.
After using one all day, I actually got to like it and if I had enough work for one, I would consider owning one, although I would look to see if there were any reliability issues first.
I liked the fact that it had two separate effects sections so I could set one as reverb and one as delay and still have four auxiliaries for monitors.
It would be good for smaller gigs coupled with some active speakers and very little outboard gear - just a few graphic equalisers. I know this can be done as an all in one package with a digital mixer but not at the same price.
Steve
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What do you say when your friend goes out and buys a bunch of Behringer equipment and then asks you if it's good?
I would say it depends very much which equipment she bought.
I got a Behringer B210D thrown in with secondhand purchase a few years ago, and since it was for nothing, I took it. It has been nothing but trouble since, though. Every time we need an extra foldback speaker I think - it's just a paper cone and a magnet, how different can it be? It usually takes about 5 minutes of soundcheck to remember exactly how different. It's fine if you don't turn it up past about a quarter of its gain, but after that it is a feedback machine. YMMV. It sits next to boxes that cost about twice as much, and I was very very happy to pay the money for them.
On the other hand, I will very happily use a X32 desk, and was for many years a happy X V-Amp user (multi-FX pedal for guitar). There is nothing wrong with their Ultra DIs either. Most of their rack gear is not glamorous, but it generally works, to a first approximation.
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Thanks everyone! Great advice as usual, wish I could reply to each post. She is not only a good friend but my next-door neighbor. She's a very independent person though. I've offered to help her pick out gear before but she just does her own thing; I guess she trusts the salespeople more. She said she heard Behringer was a good brand. I ended up telling her that Behringer wasn't the best but has been getting better and will probably do fine and was probably a good deal for the money -- she got this newer gear used.
She sings OK but I can't say she has a great ear for sound, but I can't say I do either. Sometimes you have to hear things side-by-side to really hear the difference. She's been using a Yamaha powered mixer with their cheapest speakers, and was plenty happy with it. Last year she bought a couple Behringer powered speakers at GC, and recently we compared them with the Yamahas, and she preferred the Yamaha because she could hear the mids more so she uses the B's as monitors. Here newer gear consists of two B1520 Pro tops and two B1800X subs, with a single EP2500 amp, along with a Behringer mixer and a bunch of mics and others stuff. She wanted to know if she needed another amp and a crossover, which is a good question. The speaker I/O was interesting, so I downloaded the manuals. I can't make total sense of them but it appears the subs have built-in crossovers and it's actually designed to drive both pairs of speakers with the single amp. Not sure how well that works. I can't say they sound very good to my ears but with some EQ it was better (but I'm not a fan of using much EQ). She formed an all-girl band and they're getting lots of gigs now and she needed something louder. I never believe in buying bottom of the line anything, but they'll probably work for a while. They're pretty heavy though; not sure how she'll manage.
My current main setup consists of an 01v96i mixer with PRX speakers. I was initially going to go with York or FBT or RCF or something like that, but decided to go with JBL for a couple reasons. And the speakers I heard that were a lot better were out of my price range and heavier, and weight was important to me as I have back problems.
But I freely admit that I did many years with a Mackie 1402 mixer and the original Eon 10p speakers. When I bought the speakers in the '90s I compared every "cheap" option I could find and the Eons were clearly better (they were the only self-powered speakers at the time). But I must say I never liked the sound of the 15" Eons. Regarding mixers Behringer was new at the time but I passed on them in favor of the Mackie. Both the mixer and speakers are still working fine with just a couple minor issues, and I still use them occasionally for small outdoor things where they might be subject to the elements.
Unfortunately I will probably have to sell all my gear as we are having financial issues, so this may be the end of an "era" for me. I haven't done that much anyway lately.
P.S. I should mention that money is not really an issue for her.
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We did the first gig with our new X32 Producer - yesterday.. Sunday afternoon...
I have used B*ringer gear before, and it was often hit or miss (or budget related).
I was SERIOUSLY impressed with the sound quality from the X32 - even the built-in effects which on most boards have tended to be "usable". These were VERY GOOD!! Looking forward to more gigs with it as we get it dialed in more. This first gig was a seat of the pants mix (we mix from stage, and did nothing with compression/gates except on kick and bass) and we did not use our IEM's.
Next gig (friday) we'll be back on IEM's so need to work thru the setup on those.
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Thanks everyone! Great advice as usual, wish I could reply to each post. She is not only a good friend but my next-door neighbor. She's a very independent person though. I've offered to help her pick out gear before but she just does her own thing; I guess she trusts the salespeople more. She said she heard Behringer was a good brand. I ended up telling her that Behringer wasn't the best but has been getting better and will probably do fine and was probably a good deal for the money -- she got this newer gear used.
She sings OK but I can't say she has a great ear for sound, but I can't say I do either. Sometimes you have to hear things side-by-side to really hear the difference. She's been using a Yamaha powered mixer with their cheapest speakers, and was plenty happy with it. Last year she bought a couple Behringer powered speakers at GC, and recently we compared them with the Yamahas, and she preferred the Yamaha because she could hear the mids more so she uses the B's as monitors. Here newer gear consists of two B1520 Pro tops and two B1800X subs, with a single EP2500 amp, along with a Behringer mixer and a bunch of mics and others stuff. She wanted to know if she needed another amp and a crossover, which is a good question. The speaker I/O was interesting, so I downloaded the manuals. I can't make total sense of them but it appears the subs have built-in crossovers and it's actually designed to drive both pairs of speakers with the single amp. Not sure how well that works. I can't say they sound very good to my ears but with some EQ it was better (but I'm not a fan of using much EQ). She formed an all-girl band and they're getting lots of gigs now and she needed something louder. I never believe in buying bottom of the line anything, but they'll probably work for a while. They're pretty heavy though; not sure how she'll manage.
My current main setup consists of an 01v96i mixer with PRX speakers. I was initially going to go with York or FBT or RCF or something like that, but decided to go with JBL for a couple reasons. And the speakers I heard that were a lot better were out of my price range and heavier, and weight was important to me as I have back problems.
But I freely admit that I did many years with a Mackie 1402 mixer and the original Eon 10p speakers. When I bought the speakers in the '90s I compared every "cheap" option I could find and the Eons were clearly better (they were the only self-powered speakers at the time). But I must say I never liked the sound of the 15" Eons. Regarding mixers Behringer was new at the time but I passed on them in favor of the Mackie. Both the mixer and speakers are still working fine with just a couple minor issues, and I still use them occasionally for small outdoor things where they might be subject to the elements.
Unfortunately I will probably have to sell all my gear as we are having financial issues, so this may be the end of an "era" for me. I haven't done that much anyway lately.
P.S. I should mention that money is not really an issue for her.
Sorry to hear that Craig. Hang in there brother.
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Thanks everyone! Great advice as usual, wish I could reply to each post. She is not only a good friend but my next-door neighbor. She's a very independent person though. I've offered to help her pick out gear before but she just does her own thing; I guess she trusts the salespeople more. She said she heard Behringer was a good brand. I ended up telling her that Behringer wasn't the best but has been getting better and will probably do fine and was probably a good deal for the money -- she got this newer gear used.
She sings OK but I can't say she has a great ear for sound, but I can't say I do either. Sometimes you have to hear things side-by-side to really hear the difference. She's been using a Yamaha powered mixer with their cheapest speakers, and was plenty happy with it. Last year she bought a couple Behringer powered speakers at GC, and recently we compared them with the Yamahas, and she preferred the Yamaha because she could hear the mids more so she uses the B's as monitors. Here newer gear consists of two B1520 Pro tops and two B1800X subs, with a single EP2500 amp, along with a Behringer mixer and a bunch of mics and others stuff. She wanted to know if she needed another amp and a crossover, which is a good question. The speaker I/O was interesting, so I downloaded the manuals. I can't make total sense of them but it appears the subs have built-in crossovers and it's actually designed to drive both pairs of speakers with the single amp. Not sure how well that works. I can't say they sound very good to my ears but with some EQ it was better (but I'm not a fan of using much EQ). She formed an all-girl band and they're getting lots of gigs now and she needed something louder. I never believe in buying bottom of the line anything, but they'll probably work for a while. They're pretty heavy though; not sure how she'll manage.
My current main setup consists of an 01v96i mixer with PRX speakers. I was initially going to go with York or FBT or RCF or something like that, but decided to go with JBL for a couple reasons. And the speakers I heard that were a lot better were out of my price range and heavier, and weight was important to me as I have back problems.
But I freely admit that I did many years with a Mackie 1402 mixer and the original Eon 10p speakers. When I bought the speakers in the '90s I compared every "cheap" option I could find and the Eons were clearly better (they were the only self-powered speakers at the time). But I must say I never liked the sound of the 15" Eons. Regarding mixers Behringer was new at the time but I passed on them in favor of the Mackie. Both the mixer and speakers are still working fine with just a couple minor issues, and I still use them occasionally for small outdoor things where they might be subject to the elements.
Unfortunately I will probably have to sell all my gear as we are having financial issues, so this may be the end of an "era" for me. I haven't done that much anyway lately.
P.S. I should mention that money is not really an issue for her.
Craig - If you have a small amp and crossover you some word working skills you could help her out a bunch.
The B "pro" series are not the junk the carpet covered stuff is. The cabinets are sturdy. Keep a couple extra hf diaphragm around. However like most things Behringer does they lost it in the execution.
On the input panel of the 1800's is a biamp/passthrough switch. It selects the internal crossover or passes 2+/2- on the NL-4 in to 1+/1- on the out. This is so you can run a 4 conduction cable to the speakers and then a conventional jumper to the tops. The crossover is poorly built but the switch is the real weak link. It does not have a good detent and it arcs and the gets resistive. Take it out and hard wire it for biamp.
There are three mods that combined together really improve the cabinet.
1 - Finish constructing it. Take out the drivers. Put screws in where they used an air nailer. Run a strip of 1/2" hardwood about 2" wide on all the joints. Screw and glue. Seal up the holes. Put another furring strip in to reinforce the handles. Now solder that switch we talked about and reflow the solder on the NL4's
2 - Slightly relieve the ports, it will go a long way to eliminate the chuffing sound as turbulent air exits the ports.
3 - Replace the stamped Behringer speaker with a B&C I will post the part number. It is a drop in and handles 2000w program. New $180.00
As far as the tops. IMHO since the sub is taking low duties a 15" is the wrong driver. Especially for vocals. She would have been much happier with the B-1220's than the 15", the 12's are much tighter.
I hope things improve for you, keep the faith.
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But it's just for an upstart band so it doesn't really matter.
Yes, it really DOES matter. Some gear is garbage, and should not be used, even by the worst bands out there. Cheap Behringer speakers, stuff with piezo tweeters, etc, can't be made to sound good no matter what. This will not bode well for an upstart band. The cost difference to get decent used gear would be minimal, but newbies are scared of used for some reason, especially when new garbage can be purchased for less.
Now, since they've purchased already, it's too late to ask for advice. But being as blunt as I am, I'm not shy to tell someone if they have a turd in their rig that is causing things to smell.
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Sorry to hear that Craig. Hang in there brother.
Thanks!
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Craig - If you have a small amp and crossover you some word working skills you could help her out a bunch.
The B "pro" series are not the junk the carpet covered stuff is. The cabinets are sturdy. Keep a couple extra hf diaphragm around. However like most things Behringer does they lost it in the execution.
On the input panel of the 1800's is a biamp/passthrough switch. It selects the internal crossover or passes 2+/2- on the NL-4 in to 1+/1- on the out. This is so you can run a 4 conduction cable to the speakers and then a conventional jumper to the tops. The crossover is poorly built but the switch is the real weak link. It does not have a good detent and it arcs and the gets resistive. Take it out and hard wire it for biamp.
There are three mods that combined together really improve the cabinet.
1 - Finish constructing it. Take out the drivers. Put screws in where they used an air nailer. Run a strip of 1/2" hardwood about 2" wide on all the joints. Screw and glue. Seal up the holes. Put another furring strip in to reinforce the handles. Now solder that switch we talked about and reflow the solder on the NL4's
2 - Slightly relieve the ports, it will go a long way to eliminate the chuffing sound as turbulent air exits the ports.
3 - Replace the stamped Behringer speaker with a B&C I will post the part number. It is a drop in and handles 2000w program. New $180.00
As far as the tops. IMHO since the sub is taking low duties a 15" is the wrong driver. Especially for vocals. She would have been much happier with the B-1220's than the 15", the 12's are much tighter.
I hope things improve for you, keep the faith.
Thanks very much. The switch actually has a plate over it to keep it from moving. Yes, they are sturdy cabinets. We're going to give them a test at an outdoor gig in a couple weeks and I'll see how she feels about "fixing" them.
I only have powered speakers so I don't have an amp to sell; I do have a digital system processor but it's way more than she wants to pay for a simple crossover. I may sell her my EQ.
I totally agree regarding 12" vs. 15".
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I'll probably get flamed here, but I have a bunch of Behringer B212 powered boxes that work exceptionally well, and can get pretty loud. I still use them today for monitor duty. I've had them for 5 or 6 years now with no problems. I can walk in to the club with two, one in each hand. I use them right along side of my Yamaha DSR's - never any complaints. I've covered up the yellow badge on the speaker grill.
I've got some friends that use a single B215 for their entire PA and monitor. They're a 3-peice and all 3 sing. They don't push it hard, and the band sounds fantastic.