Post by: Roland Clarke 1964 on November 29, 2014, 04:35:52 PM
So it needs to be able to handle a bit of drums, bass, guitar, keys, DI's vocals, etc.
With the changes in modern systems, I am thinking about something that is potentially small and lightweight (well for top cabs at least), with a couple of 1x18 subs, powered would probably be best as I don't want to cart amps round as well.
I have considered things such as the new Presonus AI speakers, QSC, DB Technologies, but am open to other strong recommendations or opinions about the brands (or particular models), already mentioned.
I look forward to everyone's contributions.
Post by: Rob Spence on November 29, 2014, 08:05:41 PM
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Post by: Lyle Williams on November 29, 2014, 08:06:18 PM
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on November 29, 2014, 08:13:25 PM
Post by: Roland Clarke 1964 on November 29, 2014, 08:14:30 PM
What is your budget?
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Well an easy solution would be a pair of D&B Q10's over D&B subs, but that's going north of about £12,000 (with amps), I'm thinking south of £8,000, I'm tempted to maybe look at Presonus 328's over their 1x18 subs. I want to cover for about 10 X 30m (30 x 100ft) and audiences of 150 - 400. I figure that there are many in here with more experience with what's available on the cheaper end of the "pro" market.
Post by: Roland Clarke 1964 on November 29, 2014, 08:25:21 PM
If you want to be small, go mono. One good top over one good sub.
Hi Lyle,
I have several clients that do some smaller form gigs, where (with less than 400 punters) there is a limit on budget. Usually I dry hire in kit and have my margin plus my fee on top, but with really small shows there isn't the budget for both me and the hire. A smaller system to cover just these sort of events, that is a level above most "band's own systems", is a niche I am looking to fill. Being that it will be me and the band helping to hump I need a light, powerful, compact, simple yet elegant solution that can all fit inside a people carrier type vehicle. Unfortunately a single stack, mono system isn't going to make the grade for my clients, larger gigs, then the budget is there for kit hire.
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on November 29, 2014, 08:28:34 PM
Well an easy solution would be a pair of D&B Q10's over D&B subs, but that's going north of about £12,000 (with amps), I'm thinking south of £8,000, I'm tempted to maybe look at Presonus 328's over their 1x18 subs. I want to cover for about 10 X 30m (30 x 100ft) and audiences of 150 - 400. I figure that there are many in here with more experience with what's available on the cheaper end of the "pro" market.
You'll have no trouble "covering" 30 x 100, but the greater portion of the room will be in the reverberative field. Best bet to maximize the direct sound field would be a single center speaker with pattern control as low as you can afford.
Otherwise, some 40 degree tops if you're going to go 1/side...
Post by: Roland Clarke 1964 on November 29, 2014, 08:30:36 PM
30 x 100?
Medium size function rooms, larger bars, small halls, ok it may be 50ft x 80ft, but I think you get the idea.
Post by: Roland Clarke 1964 on November 29, 2014, 08:40:55 PM
You'll have no trouble "covering" 30 x 100, but the greater portion of the room will be in the reverberative field. Best bet to maximize the direct sound field would be a single center speaker with pattern control as low as you can afford.
Otherwise, some 40 degree tops if you're going to go 1/side...
I get your point, but this won't be an install situation so single centre isn't going to work, and it's got to be a sort of one size made to work for all. Are there any specific brands or boxes in my budget (size criteria), you would recommend that I need to be listening too?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on November 29, 2014, 08:59:21 PM
I get your point, but this won't be an install situation so single centre isn't going to work, and it's got to be a sort of one size made to work for all. Are there any specific brands or boxes in my budget (size criteria), you would recommend that I need to be listening too?
Well, the Q10's pattern is 110 degrees and the 328's is 90 degrees, so I wouldn't recommend either as using 1/side is going to spill a lot onto the walls one way or the other.
You might want to look at a compromise like the QSC K12 with a 75 degree conical pattern...AND a built in tilter.
Post by: Lyle Williams on November 29, 2014, 10:33:58 PM
Hi Lyle,
I have several clients that do some smaller form gigs, where (with less than 400 punters) there is a limit on budget. Usually I dry hire in kit and have my margin plus my fee on top, but with really small shows there isn't the budget for both me and the hire. A smaller system to cover just these sort of events, that is a level above most "band's own systems", is a niche I am looking to fill. Being that it will be me and the band helping to hump I need a light, powerful, compact, simple yet elegant solution that can all fit inside a people carrier type vehicle. Unfortunately a single stack, mono system isn't going to make the grade for my clients, larger gigs, then the budget is there for kit hire.
I agree on the problem "selling" clients on a single stack, but it will sound just fine. To be honest, it will probably sound better than two stacks. Sadly people have spent their lives believing in stereo. You can't change that.
Post by: eric lenasbunt on November 29, 2014, 11:06:43 PM
JBL VP series sounds great as well, can't remember off hand about a pole mount on them though.
The Fulcrum FA12 sound ridiculously good as well. Someone here had a few for sale in the market place.
Post by: Roland Clarke 1964 on November 30, 2014, 05:55:10 AM
I agree on the problem "selling" clients on a single stack, but it will sound just fine. To be honest, it will probably sound better than two stacks. Sadly people have spent their lives believing in stereo. You can't change that.
That's true, the largest problem is that central speakers really need to be flown and in the scheme of things that's an issue with a quick and cheap gig. I really need light, few elements, quality sound to cover the vast majority of "small" gigs. At the other end, the shows I'm involved with have the budget for more. I guess I'm looking to be able to do show's that I'd like to do, but at the moment are not viable financially.
Post by: Roland Clarke 1964 on November 30, 2014, 05:57:44 AM
What about Danley SM80?
JBL VP series sounds great as well, can't remember off hand about a pole mount on them though.
The Fulcrum FA12 sound ridiculously good as well. Someone here had a few for sale in the market place.
The Danley is an interesting box, but possible a bit larger than I would ideally be looking for. Fulcrum's don't seem to have a presence in the UK so that rules them out for me, the JBL's are a thought. What are your thoughts on how they stack up against QSC's?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on November 30, 2014, 07:32:55 AM
What about Danley SM80?
JBL VP series sounds great as well, can't remember off hand about a pole mount on them though.
The Fulcrum FA12 sound ridiculously good as well. Someone here had a few for sale in the market place.
VP have no stock pole cups, just fly points. Impressive specs but a bit weighty per OP at close to 80 lbs/ box. Onboard network controlled DSP a plus, but again...stack or fly requires a pair of hefty stands and a well-engineered hang system counter to the "small gig/system" concept.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 30, 2014, 08:19:03 AM
The Danley is an interesting box, but possible a bit larger than I would ideally be looking for.The Danley SM100 is a bit smaller than the SM80-has a wider pattern-less expensive-lighter-naturally goes lower but also has less output capability.
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on November 30, 2014, 09:34:15 AM
I am not sure about availability where you are or pricing.
This is what I use for small venues now. I still have my TCS stuff but this is easier to set up and helps keeps the sound off of the ceiling. They may have a little too wide of coverage for some narrow rooms but my results have been great. I have used them for everthing from full bands to religious services. I know that Live Sound International has a current review of them.
I am sold on tall, skinny speakers for a lot of stuff now. They aren't perfect for every application but they sure do good at the applications that they are well suited for.
Post by: eric lenasbunt on November 30, 2014, 10:10:54 AM
VP have no stock pole cups, just fly points. Impressive specs but a bit weighty per OP at close to 80 lbs/ box. Onboard network controlled DSP a plus, but again...stack or fly requires a pair of hefty stands and a well-engineered hang system counter to the "small gig/system" concept.
I guess small and light depends on how strong you are
The QSC k series are great boxes, but I would not consider that "better than bands would have". KW are a step up, but weight steps up too.
I totally forgot about the RCF NX12SMA. They are small, crazy light at 36lbs, pole mountable, and a definite step up from the k series or PRX stuff bands would have. Price isn't bad either.
Post by: Roland Clarke 1964 on November 30, 2014, 11:49:54 AM
I guess small and light depends on how strong you are
The QSC k series are great boxes, but I would not consider that "better than bands would have". KW are a step up, but weight steps up too.
I totally forgot about the RCF NX12SMA. They are small, crazy light at 36lbs, pole mountable, and a definite step up from the k series or PRX stuff bands would have. Price isn't bad either.
That's the sort of thing I'm looking for. We all know bands that do have a good system, but to be honest, many fall into the trap of having "slightly the wrong gear", great speakers, and not enough decent mic's, or a good desk, but old tired speakers, or simply not enough gear of their own to do more than a small bar. To be honest, RCF's should have been on my list, but I overlooked them. Thanks for the heads up.
Post by: Scott Bolt on November 30, 2014, 12:08:05 PM
That's the sort of thing I'm looking for. We all know bands that do have a good system, but to be honest, many fall into the trap of having "slightly the wrong gear", great speakers, and not enough decent mic's, or a good desk, but old tired speakers, or simply not enough gear of their own to do more than a small bar. To be honest, RCF's should have been on my list, but I overlooked them. Thanks for the heads up.No doubt that the NX is a nice speaker. It is also much more expensive than the K's, KW's, PRX's, etc.
What is your budget? I understand you are looking for a top over sub per side based on the discussion so far. Is that true?
How important is size and weight vs sound quality and SPL?
Post by: Steve M Smith on November 30, 2014, 12:54:21 PM
Something like this: http://www.theaudioworksuk.com/index.php/hk-audio-elias-px-1600w-active-pa-system.html
Steve.
Post by: Roland Clarke 1964 on November 30, 2014, 12:59:28 PM
No doubt that the NX is a nice speaker. It is also much more expensive than the K's, KW's, PRX's, etc.
What is your budget? I understand you are looking for a top over sub per side based on the discussion so far. Is that true?
How important is size and weight vs sound quality and SPL?
Well budget is sub £8,000, size and weight is important in that I have to cart the kit and I could lower the budget if I decided to go for slightly older, heavier kit, my reckoning is that you can get good quality, high spl for lower money these days, that's good old progress for you. I am interested to look at the Presonus stuff, heard a few people saying very positive things about it and that they can go seriously loud without "crowding" that afflicts so many budget systems of old. I guess that I'm not looking to mix "metal" bands, so I do more at the quality rather than quantity end, but it's always good to have enough grunt for to make the house "rock" a bit.
These sort of jobs, I have in the past, successfully done with things like small D&B rigs and alike, however, my budget doesn't stretch that far, and I think I need a powered system to make it portable enough without needing to hire help every time, if I am to make it viable for the price I am looking to charge.
Post by: Doug Fowler on November 30, 2014, 01:08:10 PM
Check out this guy: 3-way 60x40, top hat for pole mount.
I have not heard it, but it has a Focus preset. Passive/biamp.
If it checks out, maybe go with TH-118, which I have used, and are fantastic kit.
http://eaw.com/portfolio_page/kf364/ (http://eaw.com/portfolio_page/kf364/)
Post by: Roland Clarke 1964 on November 30, 2014, 01:11:41 PM
I see a lot of HK stuff over on our side of the Atlantic.
Something like this: http://www.theaudioworksuk.com/index.php/hk-audio-elias-px-1600w-active-pa-system.html
Steve.
Hi Steve,
Used a lot of Actor and Projector systems in the past, Actor DX was a vast improvement, however, been using things like 2 x DB Technologies DVA T4 over their DVA S2585N, which works quite a bit better than the HK, but rigging even 2 line array modules is time consuming and I thought I should be able to get a 1 top box solution that should offer similar SPL and probably better response.
Post by: Roland Clarke 1964 on November 30, 2014, 02:26:02 PM
Things have really changed at EAW, thankfully.
Check out this guy: 3-way 60x40, top hat for pole mount.
I have not heard it, but it has a Focus preset. Passive/biamp.
If it checks out, maybe go with TH-118, which I have used, and are fantastic kit.
http://eaw.com/portfolio_page/kf364/ (http://eaw.com/portfolio_page/kf364/)
That looks interesting, certainly plenty of output. The configuration is similar to the D&B Q series. Do they do a powered version too or strictly passive?
Post by: Mac Kerr on November 30, 2014, 02:52:26 PM
That looks interesting, certainly plenty of output. The configuration is similar to the D&B Q series. Do they do a powered version too or strictly passive?
Yes.
http://eaw.com/portfolio_page/kf364nt/
Mac
Post by: Scott Bolt on November 30, 2014, 04:26:02 PM
Well budget is sub £8,000, size and weight is important in that I have to cart the kit and I could lower the budget if I decided to go for slightly older, heavier kit, my reckoning is that you can get good quality, high spl for lower money these days, that's good old progress for you. I am interested to look at the Presonus stuff, heard a few people saying very positive things about it and that they can go seriously loud without "crowding" that afflicts so many budget systems of old. I guess that I'm not looking to mix "metal" bands, so I do more at the quality rather than quantity end, but it's always good to have enough grunt for to make the house "rock" a bit.I haven't heard a db rig, but have heard good things about them.
These sort of jobs, I have in the past, successfully done with things like small D&B rigs and alike, however, my budget doesn't stretch that far, and I think I need a powered system to make it portable enough without needing to hire help every time, if I am to make it viable for the price I am looking to charge.
Your budget doesn't get you into a Danley rig, but is more than you need for either a KW or PRX rig.
If output is more important that portability, then I would recommend KW153's over KW181's. With your budget you should be able to get 1 or 2 extra KW181's for bigger venues.
If size and weight is more important, then the PRX712's over the PRX718XLF's would be my suggestion. If you are open to mixing and matching, then the DSR112 makes a nice match to the 718XLF and has a bit more output and is a little cleaner sound to my ears.
Post by: eric lenasbunt on November 30, 2014, 10:57:52 PM
I haven't heard a db rig, but have heard good things about them.
Your budget doesn't get you into a Danley rig, but is more than you need for either a KW or PRX rig.
If output is more important that portability, then I would recommend KW153's over KW181's. With your budget you should be able to get 1 or 2 extra KW181's for bigger venues.
If size and weight is more important, then the PRX712's over the PRX718XLF's would be my suggestion. If you are open to mixing and matching, then the DSR112 makes a nice match to the 718XLF and has a bit more output and is a little cleaner sound to my ears.
8000 pounds is roughly $12,500 US, that gets him a class above the PRX/KW stuff and then some. The 153's are also fairly beefy to move alone.
Better than PRX and money to spare:
For example:
(2) RCF NX12sma $3000
(2) TH mini ~$2500
(1) Crown XTi 4000 $950
Those are an example of components and he still has $6000 left for cables racks, stands, a trip to Vegas, a second setup, whatever.
Maybe I missed something but you can get a nice PA for small gigs for well under $12500
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 01, 2014, 01:42:16 AM
8000 pounds is roughly $12,500 US, that gets him a class above the PRX/KW stuff and then some.
In theory... However, we seem to pay £1 for every $1 of the US price, despite what the exchange rate might actually be.
Steve.
Post by: John Rutirasiri on December 01, 2014, 01:52:06 AM
Cheers,
JR
Post by: Robert Patch on December 01, 2014, 06:41:06 PM
8000 pounds is roughly $12,500 US, that gets him a class above the PRX/KW stuff and then some. The 153's are also fairly beefy to move alone.
Better than PRX and money to spare:
For example:
(2) RCF NX12sma $3000
(2) TH mini ~$2500
(1) Crown XTi 4000 $950
Those are an example of components and he still has $6000 left for cables racks, stands, a trip to Vegas, a second setup, whatever.
Maybe I missed something but you can get a nice PA for small gigs for well under $12500
That would be a nice small system (other than the wires sticking out the top of the speakers). 60 x 60 degree coverage.
Post by: Brian Jojade on December 01, 2014, 07:21:29 PM
I have an 8 space rack that has an X32 Rack and 2 QSC PLXD 4.5s in it which powers the rig quite nicely. For smaller shows, I can split the power of the amps and drive 4 monitor mixes as well if I need to. With this configuration, I see no advantage of using powered speakers versus the amps. Yeah, if the amps weren't in the rack it would be a little lighter, but then I have to hook up more than twice as many cables. Using NL4 cable, it's one run to the sub and a jumper to the top. Going powered it's signal AND power to each speaker and then adjustments at the speaker. Trade off acceptable to me.
Post by: Scott Bolt on December 01, 2014, 08:28:39 PM
In theory... However, we seem to pay £1 for every $1 of the US price, despite what the exchange rate might actually be.
Steve.
Yep. My condolences :(
So we are talking about $8000.00 USD budget in terms of what we could buy here.
Post by: Jonathan Betts on December 01, 2014, 08:40:41 PM
Post by: eric lenasbunt on December 01, 2014, 09:15:31 PM
In theory... However, we seem to pay £1 for every $1 of the US price, despite what the exchange rate might actually be.
Steve.
That stinks, however my suggestion still leaves you with beer money and more...
Post by: Scott Bolt on December 03, 2014, 09:22:45 PM
That stinks, however my suggestion still leaves you with beer money and more...
I'll give you the NX, but I am not so sure about a pair of TH Mini's stacking up against a pair of PRX718XLF's. I have never personally heard the mini's, it is just tough to imagine such small subs keeping up with the XLF's.
I'll also give you the KW153 not being an easy lift.... but it is a really nice sounding speaker if you can live with the lift ;)
I was also suggesting a matched pair of speakers for looks and to avoid any processing issues.
Do you think that the NX over TH Mini would be a nicer sounding rig and a higher output rig..... or just a nicer sounding rig?
Post by: eric lenasbunt on December 07, 2014, 10:22:57 AM
I'll give you the NX, but I am not so sure about a pair of TH Mini's stacking up against a pair of PRX718XLF's. I have never personally heard the mini's, it is just tough to imagine such small subs keeping up with the XLF's.
I'll also give you the KW153 not being an easy lift.... but it is a really nice sounding speaker if you can live with the lift ;)
I was also suggesting a matched pair of speakers for looks and to avoid any processing issues.
Do you think that the NX over TH Mini would be a nicer sounding rig and a higher output rig..... or just a nicer sounding rig?
I personally use KW153's as my small-ish banquet type of rig and they have never done me wrong. I use them over a KW181 and find if I stand on the sub or if there is a 2-3' stage I can fairly easily heave them on the stand. Or if no sub the Iwa Jima method works well.
I can't answer the question directly about the PRX718 vs a well powered TH Mini. I have not done a head to head. I was mostly not suggesting the PRX because the OP mentioned wanting something above the level of local bands. Also, it didn't sound like he needed crazy output for this rig. Personally I am fine with the KW or PRX stuff for these types of gigs, but the OP sounds like he wants to set himself apart by having higher end stuff.
Maybe I am reading too much into that...
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 07, 2014, 10:31:43 AM
I'll give you the NX, but I am not so sure about a pair of TH Mini's stacking up against a pair of PRX718XLF's. I have never personally heard the mini's, it is just tough to imagine such small subs keeping up with the XLF's.I have no experience with the PRX718, but you are comparing a front loaded woofer to a horn loaded woofer.
The horn adds a lot of gain to the driver-so the sensitivity is a lot higher. Consider also that the powered cabinet is limited (by the internal amplifier size) to half of the peak power that the TH mini can handle.
You can't go by size alone. It is how it is used that makes the difference.
Of course side by side would be the best way to tell.
Post by: Scott Bolt on December 07, 2014, 04:31:33 PM
I have no experience with the PRX718, but you are comparing a front loaded woofer to a horn loaded woofer.Thanks for the reply Ivan.
The horn adds a lot of gain to the driver-so the sensitivity is a lot higher. Consider also that the powered cabinet is limited (by the internal amplifier size) to half of the peak power that the TH mini can handle.
You can't go by size alone. It is how it is used that makes the difference.
Of course side by side would be the best way to tell.
Yea, I figured the horn would add quite a bit. My old CV earthquakes (nothing as nice as the Danley stuff) would seriously put out the umph .... just seemed kind of like a one-note-wonder to my ears..... but loud for sure.
The beauty of wave guides ;)
Hey, if you have a pair of TH Mini's sitting around the lab .... it is getting close to Christmas .... and I would be happy to do that head to head with the XLF's for you ;)
Post by: Caleb Dueck on December 07, 2014, 04:33:36 PM