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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Wayne Smith2 on December 04, 2016, 02:26:55 PM
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I have a good old Mackie 24-8 bus mixer which I'd like to have cleaned up'.
It's basically providing everything I need of it as an audio monitoring platform in my home studio, but as typical with these.. have the sometimes intermittent poor internal connection noises and troubles.
I'm wondering if there might be a good tech that could bring the thing back up to solid clean operation. Hopefully this would need to be in the central / north Cal region. I would rather drive a hundred or more miles (from Sacramento) than shipping it out.
I'm well aware of the 'ribbon connector issues -and I've already been through the replacement' runaround quite a wile ago. So rather than just another 'reseating etc, I'd like to inquire about having them fixed permanently -perhaps the contacts can be improved, heck I wouldn't care if they were soldered on!
So, this is basically a last ditch call. Sonically, feature wise, it does all that's needed, and it would appear -but I haven't done a whole lot of looking into alternatives.. the alt' would be a few $K for a new digi board.
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. the alt' would be a few $K for a new digi board.
But worth the price of admission. The Mackie was an average console new
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Definitely look into newer digital boards. You would be amazed at the quality and features available in affordable digital boards. I still mix sometimes on analogs, but when I do I sure miss my soundcraft performer. If you really like your mackie and get good results from it, A refurb might be worth it. If it gets into the 1000.00 range, I would definitely look at alternatives. Even if you don't want to go digital, there are some really nice analog boards on the market due to everyone upgrading to digital consoles.
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If you can live with 16 channels the Behringer XR18 or X18 are pretty much unbeatable in my opinion. They are 500-600 bucks and are tiny compared to what you've been using. Plus they are packed with features.
You can take the 24 channel console, it's case, and the 16 spaces of outboard gear and cabling to make it all work, plus the snake to get it to FOH and replace it ALL with a 3 rack space box that you can drop on the floor by the drummer.
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If it's just for monitoring in a recording studio you can get an old Allen & Heath or Soundcraft analog board that sounds much better for a fraction of a new digital board. And for monitoring multiple outs from a DAW, you don't need all the power of a digital board. The only modern thing would be if you were using it for mixdown and wanted moving faders and DAW control. There aren't really many low cost options with more than 8 faders.
Mackie was an early adopter of SMT. I think they were the first installation of the Philips 16 head FCT placement machine back when they built their own stuff. So the old standby of trying to reheat and reflow all the solderjoints would only make things worse. For various reasons including metallurgical I could elaborate on if folks are interested. So, do the clean and reseat all the connectors thing and if it meets your needs, use it. Otherwise there are better places to put your money.
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Well I'm to the point of seeing what you're all saying sums it up pretty well. Thank you all for the advice. I did speak to a tech and nixed the repair route. Other than replacing the ribbons -again!, there is soldering them on LOL, but then the labor would be absurd.. and not much dif than the money for a decent new board.
Wayne2 grins ..the other one'
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Wayne,
Good on you for coming here for advice first. I second the notion of a good digital board. I have and use the XR18, but lots of options can be found for under $2k that would suit your needs.
As for the old Mackie, let me share a story.
A local venue I used to help with was interested in possibly renting an analog mixer for a show and needed about 20 channels plus a CD input. I called my buddy who runs a sound co and he said he had a 32-8 I could use gratis. The only condition was that I had to leave a $100 deposit, which would not be refunded if I returned the board to his shop. :)
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Yeah -well it gets worse. :>) I also have an Onyx 24-4 bus 'live mixer, in a road case, purchased right before the digi transition.
I'll likely be selling that one for ..IDK, what 10 cents on the dollar?
(I considered swapping that one in place of the 8-bus, but it simply doesn't have record session' feature sets.
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Wayne, can you clarify your use case? Is this monitoring a multi-channel interface in a project studio? Or are you looking for something to use for live sound reinforcement?
Most folks here have jumped to the SR conclusion and are recommending their favorite digital mixers. If you are looking for live sound, then I agree. For any budget over $1500, a current digital board is the way to go. But if it's going to passively sit there and sum Sonar or PT channels together for monitoring, then the advantages of a modern digital board would be wasted and you should go for the best sound quality you can find. A buddy of mine uses an old Gamble SR desk for this purpose (as well as the mic pres for channels where he doesn't have a fancy outboard pre). That thing is huge but he has the space for it and it never moves. Plus it impresses recording clients.
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Wayne, can you clarify your use case? Is this monitoring a multi-channel interface in a project studio? Or are you looking for something to use for live sound reinforcement?
Most folks here have jumped to the SR conclusion and are recommending their favorite digital mixers. If you are looking for live sound, then I agree. For any budget over $1500, a current digital board is the way to go. But if it's going to passively sit there and sum Sonar or PT channels together for monitoring, then the advantages of a modern digital board would be wasted and you should go for the best sound quality you can find. A buddy of mine uses an old Gamble SR desk for this purpose (as well as the mic pres for channels where he doesn't have a fancy outboard pre). That thing is huge but he has the space for it and it never moves. Plus it impresses recording clients.
I used to do multi-track recording -direct outs, and mixing on the board. Now for the most part it's main function is doing is monitor (splits) off outboard pres, and phones mixes.
I could get by with a number of 'low ball or not solutions. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't always want to have a nice -and versatile mixer.
And to add, given my experience of 30 years of 'low end analog mixers.. and especially with how everyone seems to like the current digi solutions, I'm not inclined to go there again.
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You could get something like a nice Soundcraft Ghost for pretty cheap.
The power of digital SR mixers is not in the sound quality, although it's not bad, especially compared to an old Mackie. It's in the ability to have more than four aux mixes, dynamics on every channel, multiple built in effects, usually more versatile eq than budget MI analog mixers, recall, and some more sophisticated routing options. I can't think of any of these being an asset in your use case.
I use a Soundcraft Expression 2 for live sound and love it. All those things I listed make my old Allen & Heaths very limiting. But they do sound good. If I had the space in my project studio I'd be using my GL24 for summing and monitoring similar to how my buddy uses his Gamble. Now it's just a garage queen and I suppose a backup to the Expression although with some real compromises in capability. Not worth the $300 I'd get for the hassle of selling it.
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http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,161709.0.html
This is only a 4 bus instead of 8, but 6 auxes instead of 4. It might be an alternative for you.
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Some guy near me is selling a new-in-box Mackie sr56.8.
For 900 bucks.
And its still overpriced.
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Some guy near me is selling a new-in-box Mackie sr56.8.
For 900 bucks.
And its still overpriced.
See if you can get him to up what he's paying you.
Mac
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You could get something like a nice Soundcraft Ghost for pretty cheap.
The power of digital SR mixers is not in the sound quality, although it's not bad, especially compared to an old Mackie. It's in the ability to have more than four aux mixes, dynamics on every channel, multiple built in effects, usually more versatile eq than budget MI analog mixers, recall, and some more sophisticated routing options. I can't think of any of these being an asset in your use case.
I use a Soundcraft Expression 2 for live sound and love it. All those things I listed make my old Allen & Heaths very limiting. But they do sound good. If I had the space in my project studio I'd be using my GL24 for summing and monitoring similar to how my buddy uses his Gamble. Now it's just a garage queen and I suppose a backup to the Expression although with some real compromises in capability. Not worth the $300 I'd get for the hassle of selling it.
I just pulled up the block diagrams on the ZED 428, R16, GL and the Ghost (2400..) 'Crash course review- haven't done this in a while. :)
Comparing functionality of the '8 Bus, closer to the Ghost. They really put a lot of into it. The routing options, 'alt stereo mix etc are what I would miss going with these SR boards.
Having gone through this, my options would seem to be;
-Open the damn thing up and reseat every one of them, and see how it fairs.
-Press the Onyx 24-4 into service- 'fudge the missing functions.
-Go digi. If I could get a least comparable or better sound, and work out most of the routing and functions -like a few alt stereo phones mixes would be better than I have. A lot of the additional processing would be gravy.
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A digital mixer would get you more headphone mixes. I haven't had the need to work it out but I think my Expression would support 10 or 12 stereo monitor mixes using the matrixes along with the regular auxes. And if you wanted to run out and do live sound with it you'd be set.
A Zed is a nice budge PA mixer. Not up to the sound quality of even a GL though. A Ghost gets you into the real deal of pro studio sound quality. I have a buddy that runs one with a Radar system and while he's a very good engineer, the sound quality of his releases is up there with any small studio with a Toft or new small Neve. Maybe in a critical A/B you could tell the difference in desks, but you'd be playing in the same leagues.
Just trying to actually look at what you're doing and not just regurgitate the flavor of the month.
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I have a good old Mackie 24-8 bus mixer which I'd like to have cleaned up'.
It's basically providing everything I need of it as an audio monitoring platform in my home studio, but as typical with these.. have the sometimes intermittent poor internal connection noises and troubles.
I'm wondering if there might be a good tech that could bring the thing back up to solid clean operation. Hopefully this would need to be in the central / north Cal region. I would rather drive a hundred or more miles (from Sacramento) than shipping it out.
I'm well aware of the 'ribbon connector issues -and I've already been through the replacement' runaround quite a wile ago. So rather than just another 'reseating etc, I'd like to inquire about having them fixed permanently -perhaps the contacts can be improved, heck I wouldn't care if they were soldered on!
So, this is basically a last ditch call. Sonically, feature wise, it does all that's needed, and it would appear -but I haven't done a whole lot of looking into alternatives.. the alt' would be a few $K for a new digi board.
Wayne-I am a factory-authorized warranty repair station for Mackie. Have the ribbon cables been replaced or just cleaned/reseated, etc.?
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Man, if the primary use of this will be studio work, go for broke dude. Big nice analog boards have never been cheaper and they will continue to do so until there is an audio-hipster revival that starts a trend of using those old heavy dinosaurs because analog.
Go get a Soundcraft studio board like a 6000. You should be able to get a great desk for under a grand and pay a guy a little bit to go through it if it needs any repairs.
http://austin.craigslist.org/msg/5887438334.html <---- Great for monitoring
http://austin.craigslist.org/msg/5879351444.html
http://austin.craigslist.org/msg/5873921873.html <---- Probably not enough busses but they sound great.
http://houston.craigslist.org/msg/5858399739.html
http://houston.craigslist.org/msg/5875919956.html
This was just searching "console" or "Mixer". There's deals to be had out there!
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Man, if the primary use of this will be studio work, go for broke dude. Big nice analog boards have never been cheaper and they will continue to do so until there is an audio-hipster revival that starts a trend of using those old heavy dinosaurs because analog. ...
I really do appreciate the the sentiment- and the fact is not lost on me! It'd fun to go 'there, but given most of the processes here are 'in the box as they say a move to a nice big analog board upgrade' isn't in the cards.
... You should be able to get a great desk for under a grand and pay a guy a little bit to go through it if it needs any repairs. ...
I have to admit, there's potential for some great irony here. Me back again ...'looking for advice refurbishing an old console' .. ;)
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What Software are you using, and what is your I/O hardware? Latency has gotten to where you can build monitor mixes easily in the box with the other tracks and plugins (or outboard set up as inserts) and have it fully recallable. You don't need to patch every output of your DAW to a mixer, and in fact, what you're hearing isn't what you have.
You may want to look at a physical fader controller - give you the physical control of faders and knobs but in Pro Tools, Studio One, etc. Presonus just released their Faderport 8 with 8 motorized faders - Pro Tools Expert just did a review. there are other solutions with more channels if needed.
You may find that with your setup, you don't need the big desk anymore, and your workflow may be smoother. Just a thought.
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True, with PT11 monitoring latency went down to the point where you no longer need an outboard mixer for "direct" monitoring. Unless you want to have lots of individual monitor mixes. And for that something like an older analog monitor board, or an Aviom or Hear system would be needed.
If this is just a personal studio, then efficiency and workflow are everything. If you are making money at the low end, you'd be surprised at how many entry level clients oooh and ahhh at my buddy's big Gamble board. Makes them think they're in a big time studio. Even though most of the time they're just listening to the playback though two channels of the board and everything else is ITB. The alternative is spending something like $5g+ on a Control 24 or SSL.
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Yes. Some of this'll be a repeat, but here's the 'set up. :>)
16 RME line I/O, outboard pres direct, and split to the board.
On a full band (or not) tracking session, the board does my monitoring -and real time test mixes', and phones mixes for the band while tracking. Yes RME can do 'two or three MS monitoring (way less actually if I unload the DAW a bit). But, in a situation like this- 'a board for that, and a 'DAW as recorder' setting aside, is superior. In several ways. :>)
What this all wraps back around to, is a mixer -in even a humble studio', still provides quite a lot in the way of actual practical utility.
..an add - The real' play back, mix, etc, never touches the board. That 'fix, several years ago, a $600 'Central Station CR router taking the mixer out of the paths, was one of a few 'best audible bumps' I've done.
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This is a discussion more suited to GearSlutz or some such, but are you summing ITB or OTB? Obviously OTB places a premium on the sound quality of the mixer. The apparent advantages of OTB are mitigated by proper tracking and mixing practices, but there are still folks who buy into it. That would play into what you wanted to do in terms of a mixing board. Sound quality on an RME interface is far beyond what a Mackie can support. Something like an APB, Ghost or the Midas Tim found would keep up and allow for OTB summing in those situations where you want to sell the workflow (or have clients asking for it).
If sound quality is not as much of an issue, I would just grab a newer ZED or Yamaha MG board for the reliability and put that money that would have gone into a $2k digital board into mics. Of which no small studio ever has enough of the ones people are looking for. Unless as I earlier mentioned you have some thoughts of pulling the board out of the room and doing live sound from time to time with it.
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The alternative is spending something like $5g+ on a Control 24
And the Control 24's mic prees are not well liked
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And the Control 24's mic prees are not well liked
True, but the OP's audio is going though an RME and some unknown outboard pres. Doesn't sound like he intends to use the pres in the subject mixer. The C24 would just be for DAW control, monitoring and looking like an impressive desk to clients.
We don't know if he's mixing by mouse or already has some sort of DAW controller. Or what kind of space limitations he has.
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I have a good old Mackie 24-8 bus mixer which I'd like to have cleaned up'.
It's basically providing everything I need of it as an audio monitoring platform in my home studio, but as typical with these.. have the sometimes intermittent poor internal connection noises and troubles.
I'm wondering if there might be a good tech that could bring the thing back up to solid clean operation. Hopefully this would need to be in the central / north Cal region. I would rather drive a hundred or more miles (from Sacramento) than shipping it out.
I'm well aware of the 'ribbon connector issues -and I've already been through the replacement' runaround quite a wile ago. So rather than just another 'reseating etc, I'd like to inquire about having them fixed permanently -perhaps the contacts can be improved, heck I wouldn't care if they were soldered on!
So, this is basically a last ditch call. Sonically, feature wise, it does all that's needed, and it would appear -but I haven't done a whole lot of looking into alternatives.. the alt' would be a few $K for a new digi board.
Wayne-I am a factory-authorized warranty repair station for Mackie. Have the ribbon cables been replaced or just cleaned/reseated, etc.?
Responding to Stan Shields- I'm sorry I missed your post (it was up in the quote box')
Yes, the board went back to Mackie, IIRC correctly for ribbons to be replaced --I hope that's what they did.
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This is a discussion more suited to GearSlutz or some such, but are you summing ITB or OTB? Obviously OTB places a premium on the sound quality of the mixer. The apparent advantages of OTB are mitigated by proper tracking and mixing practices, but there are still folks who buy into it. That would play into what you wanted to do in terms of a mixing board. Sound quality on an RME interface is far beyond what a Mackie can support. Something like an APB, Ghost or the Midas Tim found would keep up and allow for OTB summing in those situations where you want to sell the workflow (or have clients asking for it).
If sound quality is not as much of an issue, I would just grab a newer ZED or Yamaha MG board for the reliability and put that money that would have gone into a $2k digital board into mics. Of which no small studio ever has enough of the ones people are looking for. Unless as I earlier mentioned you have some thoughts of pulling the board out of the room and doing live sound from time to time with it.
and..
True, but the OP's audio is going though an RME and some unknown outboard pres. Doesn't sound like he intends to use the pres in the subject mixer. The C24 would just be for DAW control, monitoring and looking like an impressive desk to clients.
We don't know if he's mixing by mouse or already has some sort of DAW controller. Or what kind of space limitations he has.
I mentioned back a page, I'm almost totally ITB. Via 'mouse. I fudged' that a bit there as I still enjoy mixing on a board. That's were I learned. :>) But digi (the DAW, the processes) stomp -in a big way anything I could do on an analog board. (give me full automation, etc, etc, sure maybe. I'm just saying given anything within practical reach.
And second, again, I'd like to not go backwards on the functional aspects.
A digi board is actually somewhat appealing- being / having a bit of both worlds. I mixed some on an x32, once. Enjoyed it. At this point that's my total hands on' exposure.
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and..I mentioned back a page, I'm almost totally ITB. Via 'mouse. I fudged' that a bit there as I still enjoy mixing on a board. That's were I learned. :>) But digi (the DAW, the processes) stomp -in a big way anything I could do on an analog board. (give me full automation, etc, etc, sure maybe. I'm just saying given anything within practical reach.
And second, again, I'd like to not go backwards on the functional aspects.
A digi board is actually somewhat appealing- being / having a bit of both worlds. I mixed some on an x32, once. Enjoyed it. At this point that's my total hands on' exposure.
You might want to look at a Midas M32R MAP (Minimum advertised price) is now $1,999.99 so some places will sell it even cheaper if you ask.
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The baby M32 is really nice. Its a great form factor and has every bell and whistle I think you'll need. Plus it can be a DAW controller. So you could route monitor feeds through it AND have faders for your DAW at the same time.
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Nevermind. Not sure how to delete this post.