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Title: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Dave Guilford on April 25, 2021, 10:03:15 AM
Using SRX725 boxes and absolutely love them - volume and quality is spot on for where I want to be. Sometimes I bring out 4, but most of the time just use 2.  However - the ones I have donít have the fly track so theyíre ground stacked of course and thatís solid for me.  Until now.

About to take delivery of a small mobile stage thatís only rated to fly 250lbs per side.  Iíd like to clean up sight lines and so Iím looking to fly some PA.

Long story short (details will be posted if relevant to responses here) , I donít want to hang speakers that are more than 24-36Ē tall, so Iím probably looking at 1x15Ē or similar. 

I need speakers that get LOUD and small.  Bonus points if used ones are cheap.  Passive is almost certainly preferred.

Current contenders are
SM80 , but way too expensive for now.
SRX815 , but will they be loud enough?
QRX212 , but never used them and not sure theyíre ďshortĒ enough.
VRX / JFL type array , but weight adds up.

Any other speakers that get surprisingly loud with a relatively small size?  What else should I consider?
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Riley Casey on April 25, 2021, 12:12:19 PM
Old school solution would be to find some EV DeltaMax boxes with the fly fittings. Stupid loud for their size and weight. They would require bi-amping. Aside from the usual admonition about always buying a manufacturers engineered solution for rigging anything the SRX725s are nothing more than a rework of the old JBL Concert 4800 series  and those were all riggable boxes and much heavier than the SRX. Adding pan fittings and back brackets to the SRX could be a viable solution.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Alex Cheng on April 25, 2021, 01:02:07 PM
Are Martin CDD15s an option? On paper they're a couple dB quieter, but in practice those numbers can't be directly compared of course. Horn is rotatable, so you could hang them sideways (26x17 in, 57 lbs). I haven't personally heard the 15s, but the 12s are fantastic.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Mike Monte on April 25, 2021, 01:02:45 PM
Using SRX725 boxes and absolutely love them - volume and quality is spot on for where I want to be. Sometimes I bring out 4, but most of the time just use 2.  However - the ones I have donít have the fly track so theyíre ground stacked of course and thatís solid for me.  Until now.

About to take delivery of a small mobile stage thatís only rated to fly 250lbs per side.  Iíd like to clean up sight lines and so Iím looking to fly some PA.

Long story short (details will be posted if relevant to responses here) , I donít want to hang speakers that are more than 24-36Ē tall, so Iím probably looking at 1x15Ē or similar. 

I need speakers that get LOUD and small.  Bonus points if used ones are cheap.  Passive is almost certainly preferred.

Current contenders are
SM80 , but way too expensive for now.
SRX815 , but will they be loud enough?
QRX212 , but never used them and not sure theyíre ďshortĒ enough.
VRX / JFL type array , but weight adds up.

Any other speakers that get surprisingly loud with a relatively small size?  What else should I consider?

Loud is a relative term, however, I have been very happy with my Yorkville TX4 https://yorkville.com/legacy/product/tx4/ rigs.  Passive/old school, fits your size/weight requirements, processor managed (route'n go with very little tweaking), loud....well....  (I think they're damn-loud for the small/local festivals that I do).

Look around as they turn-up on the used marked at times.

If your looking for new, Yorkville has an updated series (somewhat similar to the discontinued TX line) VTC N4 https://www.directproaudio.com/vtc-pro-audio-n4-15-2-way-high-output-full-range-speaker/  which is also processor controlled.


Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 25, 2021, 05:30:05 PM
Loud is a relative term, however, I have been very happy with my Yorkville TX4 https://yorkville.com/legacy/product/tx4/ rigs.  Passive/old school, fits your size/weight requirements, processor managed (route'n go with very little tweaking), loud....well....  (I think they're damn-loud for the small/local festivals that I do).

Look around as they turn-up on the used marked at times.

If your looking for new, Yorkville has an updated series (somewhat similar to the discontinued TX line) VTC N4 https://www.directproaudio.com/vtc-pro-audio-n4-15-2-way-high-output-full-range-speaker/  which is also processor controlled.

Riley's Deltamax solution is a good one if you can find it.   TX4 was really popular on the LAB in the 90s, pretty much a poor man's Deltamax.  Quality build, quality components, factory fly things.  Checks a lot of boxes, and also had an analog controller. Dave Lowum (where are you Dave) built/helped build a smallish regional company based on TX4s in the Chicago area. I last saw Dave in lower Wisconsin at that famous sausage joint right off the interstate in 1999-2000 I guess.  The sausage joint had a robust small venue attached.  2x TX4 per side, plenty loud, etc.  I imagine TX4 is still in use all over Canada.

I have used QRX-212 quite a bit, passive mode.  They're robust enough to use as side fills on larger stages than you will be fielding.  They're fine for FOH, normally when I was using them stacked on JBL 728s.  They have rigging points and the HF rotates, so you could fly them sideways for sight lines.  I imagine they're even better biamped.   If there are FIR presets for these (Dynacord), that should really make you grin.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Don T. Williams on April 25, 2021, 05:54:37 PM
Maybe KV audio, Fulcrum?  There is nothing wrong with passive speakers, but if you are looking for new products, you are leaving a whole lot of great possibilities out of contention.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Kemper Watson on April 25, 2021, 06:06:48 PM

I have used QRX-212 quite a bit, passive mode.    If there are FIR presets for these (Dynacord), that should really make you grin.

What Dynacord are you referring to?  I have a few QRX 212 I may be putting to work as well. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 25, 2021, 06:15:56 PM
What Dynacord are you referring to?  I have a few QRX 212 I may be putting to work as well. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

It looks like EV is out of the rack mount DSP xover business,but I think Dynacord has one.  I was looking for X-Array FIR processing (that would a huge improvement for a brutishly loud system) and stumbled across the Dynacord box.  I couldn't find a preset list though.  Maybe ping your EV rep?

Is anyone here EV-savvy?
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Kemper Watson on April 25, 2021, 07:05:42 PM
It looks like EV is out of the rack mount DSP xover business,but I think Dynacord has one.  I was looking for X-Array FIR processing (that would a huge improvement for a brutishly loud system) and stumbled across the Dynacord box.  I couldn't find a preset list though.  Maybe ping your EV rep?

Is anyone here EV-savvy?

I wonder why there are no DSP? I had not been on EV's site in a while and was stunned when I saw that.

Edit. I have a couple of Xilica but starting points are always helpful
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 25, 2021, 07:08:37 PM
I wonder why there are no DSP? I had not been on EV's site in a while and was stunned when I saw that.

Cruising Dynacord's site it looks like it's cheap enough to put it the amplifiers. 

That's my theory, anyway. 

I'll wager you could hire someone to roll up a QRX FIR enabled preset, if you could process it.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Kemper Watson on April 25, 2021, 07:16:07 PM
Cruising Dynacord's site it looks like it's cheap enough to put it the amplifiers. 

That's my theory, anyway. 

I'll wager you could hire someone to roll up a QRX FIR enabled preset, if you could process it.
.

Looks like you're right, as usual. FIR enabled 4 channel hi powered amps seem to the new trend. I think I still have some presets Phil Graham wrote for me in my first Xilica. I'll start there. Thanks for your time.


Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 25, 2021, 07:26:12 PM
.

Looks like you're right, as usual. FIR enabled 4 channel hi powered amps seem to the new trend. I think I still have some presets Phil Graham wrote for me in my first Xilica. I'll start there. Thanks for your time.

Even a broken clock is right twice daily...
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Dave Guilford on April 25, 2021, 09:40:41 PM
Maybe KV audio, Fulcrum?  There is nothing wrong with passive speakers, but if you are looking for new products, you are leaving a whole lot of great possibilities out of contention.

Itís all about weather for me. I do a lot of outdoor jobs and prefer to keep all my power in one place so the immediate ďtarp over the rackĒ solution covers the most dangerous threat of weather.  Apart from that - I have my speakers all foam lined behind grilles to help against a light sprinkle.  No doubt theyíve all been soaked before, and power amp modules werenít an issue because passive
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on April 26, 2021, 12:25:22 AM
What Dynacord are you referring to?  I have a few QRX 212 I may be putting to work as well. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

I wrote this a couple of years ago but it still is applicable for today, I am editing it slightly.

The horns in the QRx-212 are 75x50 as they come from the factory. The 50 is 35degrees down by 15 degrees up, but the horns are square and can be rotated. I have been using 2-QRx-212 per side over 2 QRx-218 per side. The best thing we have done so far is to rotate the horns so the narrower dispersion is to the center on each pair. But you must be very careful as to be sure they are always properly paired. We have them numbered 1-4 and always deploy them starting with #1 all the way house left and then #2 to the right of it with the backs touching and the inner front edges 4 inches apart. Then #3 starts the house right stack with it to the center of the room and #4 to the right of #3, again with the inner edges 4 inches apart. EQ for linearity and you will find it sounds better than before.

This way with 2 you have 100 degrees wide by 75 vertical. With the horns in the normal configuration to get the horns to play nice when in pairs you had to splay the fronts too far apart and then the 12s didnít play nice any more. I really think that with the horns splayed this way that they sound better. We didnít need 150 degrees of coverage. I didnít like these speakers used in pairs till we rotated the horns. Now I am happy with them. The other way to use them is the dual PA method, put 2 on each side of the stage and flat front them. Feed one on each side only the instruments and the other one on each side only the vocals. This also can work great if all you need it 75dgrees of horizontal coverage.

I could see hanging 2 of them sideways, one hanging from the other with the horns rotated like I mention above. You would just need to splay the front of the boxes like I said about 4Ē apart. But it would look like you are trying to do a 2 box line array but I think it would work as long as you realize it isnít a line array. 

We have been running them passive using 2 QSC PLX3602 amps with one amp channel per QRx-212. With a DBX DR4800 processor handling the crossover between the tops and the subs and some system EQ. I got a EV Dx46 processor and EV sent me the file for the FIR filters for these boxes, but I havenít had enough time yet with the system set up to incorporate it into the system. When we tried to test it out with the Dx46 the same thing happened a couple of times. We got to the concert location early (outdoors) but I ran out of time to tweak it to my satisfaction, I am real fussy. The band showed up early and I didnít think I could get everything done in the time I had left. So we went back to the DBX DR4800 which doesnít sound bad at all to do the show, because we have all the setting already in there that we have been using for a while. When testing it with the Dx46 (with only one side hooked up) we were able to get playback louder and clearer then I think we ever had done in the past. And we were nowhere near the limiters coming on and the amps were barely reading much signal. But since we ran out of time to tweak we had to go back to the standard setup we do.

EV did mention to me about using the Dynacord amps for these speakers. But we already have a lot of QSC amps.


Before we are allowed to have shows again we will need to find a place to set this all up and tweak it to my satisfaction. And an update on this, based on what it sounded like to me I have high hopes for this but for some reason I just canít get the time to get the system set up and tweaked. So we just keep going back to what has worked for us for years. We just need to find an outdoor space where we can make a lot of noise without having to then do a concert that same day.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 26, 2021, 03:00:56 AM
That's Awesome Kevin.

Small stage, a pair of QRX-212 flown sideways per side with your HF orientations, that sounds like a superior solution.

These are affordable quality flexible loudspeakers with a lot of potential, and service life after the company moves up in the market.

And they're light enough that you should be able to put it on a sub then erect it with one person.



 
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 26, 2021, 03:46:10 AM
Or go nuts.

https://tcfurlong.com/rentals/rental-inventory/loudspeakers/macpherson-monolith-loudspeaker-rental/
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Brian Bolly on April 26, 2021, 04:11:56 AM
Riley's Deltamax solution is a good one if you can find it.   TX4 was really popular on the LAB in the 90s, pretty much a poor man's Deltamax.  Quality build, quality components, factory fly things.  Checks a lot of boxes, and also had an analog controller. Dave Lowum (where are you Dave) built/helped build a smallish regional company based on TX4s in the Chicago area. I last saw Dave in lower Wisconsin at that famous sausage joint right off the interstate in 1999-2000 I guess.  The sausage joint had a robust small venue attached.  2x TX4 per side, plenty loud, etc.  I imagine TX4 is still in use all over Canada.

I bought my TX rig circa 2000 after Dave's experiences/recommendations, and we even traded some settings for the QSC DSP-3 backpacks that would bolt onto the QSC PL2 amps, as the analog processors were very conservative.  At the same time I was also working for a company with a real DM rig, and the tonal quality of the two boxes (DML1152 and TX4) were eerily similar - DM had a little more LF output, but was also slightly bigger and slightly heavier.  I last saw Dave around 2008-2009 over lunch at a deep dish pizza joint in Chicago.  The interwebs say he's the MON engineer on a gig that's easy like Sunday morning.

To OP: You mention having an SRX 725 rig.  If you're primarily a JBL shop, there's something to be said for having "more of the same" in inventory, even if it's just more of the same style/series, not necessarily same model.  I see a few pairs of the "F" variants of the SRX700 series for sale on the usual sites, so they shouldn't be too hard to come by.

If you aren't opposed to changing horses, in the small/light/loud category would easily go to the Meyer Sound ULTRA-X42.  Small, light, incredibly loud, and there's a rain hood available so water is not a problem (just don't hose them down).  They easily best any of the aforementioned speakers by +5dB or more.  The down side: they don't tick the "cheap" box. 
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 26, 2021, 04:15:04 AM
I bought my TX rig circa 2000 after Dave's experiences/recommendations, and we even traded some settings for the QSC DSP-3 backpacks that would bolt onto the QSC PL2 amps, as the analog processors were very conservative.  At the same time I was also working for a company with a real DM rig, and the tonal quality of the two boxes (DML1152 and TX4) were eerily similar - DM had a little more LF output, but was also slightly bigger and slightly heavier.  I last saw Dave around 2008-2009 over lunch at a deep dish pizza joint in Chicago.  The interwebs say he's the MON engineer on a gig that's easy like Sunday morning.

To OP: You mention having an SRX 725 rig.  If you're primarily a JBL shop, there's something to be said for having "more of the same" in inventory, even if it's just more of the same style/series, not necessarily same model.  I see a few pairs of the "F" variants of the SRX700 series for sale on the usual sites, so they shouldn't be too hard to come by.

If you aren't opposed to changing horses, in the small/light/loud category would easily go to the Meyer Sound ULTRA-X42.  Small, light, incredibly loud, and there's a rain hood available so water is not a problem (just don't hose them down).  They easily best any of the aforementioned speakers by +5dB or more.  The down side: they don't tick the "cheap" box.

Glad to hear Dave landed in a good place.  If you have his contact info and he doesn't mind sharing, hit me with a PM please. 

"Appreciatecha"

I first heard that in a Knoxville WalMart.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Caleb Dueck on April 26, 2021, 10:54:52 AM
I need speakers that get LOUD and small.  Bonus points if used ones are cheap.  Passive is almost certainly preferred.

Current contenders are
SM80 , but way too expensive for now.
SRX815 , but will they be loud enough?
QRX212 , but never used them and not sure theyíre ďshortĒ enough.
VRX / JFL type array , but weight adds up.

Any other speakers that get surprisingly loud with a relatively small size?  What else should I consider?

Used Danley SH46's fit the small, LOUD, passive requirements; they're around the price of new SM80's.  There's loud (front loaded 15") and then there's LOUD (SH46).  Drastic difference. 

QRX212's are worth a look for sure.  The ones I used are being replaced with Danley this week, there's only one pair but PM me if interested and I'll put you in touch with the owner.  I know they have FIR presets, and can likely help get them into your hands.  2 per side with rotated horns, as others have mentioned, is a solid option.

I've also used the TX4's, did a small tour with them many years ago in Canada.  At the time I thought they were great, but haven't AB'ed them with anything in nearly two decades.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Mike Pyle on April 26, 2021, 10:58:35 AM
You dismissed the SM80s straight off as "too expensive" but it looks like many of the suggestions here are not much cheaper or even considerably higher priced.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Robert Healey on April 26, 2021, 10:58:52 AM
I wonder why there are no DSP? I had not been on EV's site in a while and was stunned when I saw that.

Edit. I have a couple of Xilica but starting points are always helpful

Bosch re-launched the Dynacord brand in the US in 2019 and is putting all the electronics there.

The new L&C series amps are very cost effective and have all of EV's FIR presets. There is a 1RU DSP as well but it is targeted at the install market.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Jason Raboin on April 26, 2021, 11:15:23 AM
Fulcrum FH1596 is probably your best db per dollar value out there barring 20 year old used speakers.  If you want EV MT2 or Deltamax the former owner of my company still has them in a container on our property.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Jeff Lelko on April 26, 2021, 11:39:00 AM
You dismissed the SM80s straight off as "too expensive" but it looks like many of the suggestions here are not much cheaper or even considerably higher priced.

Yep.  There's a reason why I'm not letting go of my Yorkville Unity rig anytime soon!  The cost of upgrading "to the next level" is significant with a quickly diminishing return on investment. 

Dave, knowing what an SM80 costs (which I do), if that number scares you away you're probably not ready to make the investment yet.  Larger systems don't do well with cutting corners or subscribing to the "box a month" plan let alone the added costs of rigging and transport that often go along with it.   
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on April 26, 2021, 12:24:13 PM
Too bad you have that weight limit, a pair of KF750 a side is dirt cheap these days and goes LOUD.
I got eight  with six frames back in 2017. Sold the fly frames and made back the initial investment, kept the speakers for now.
Sounds good with greybox processing.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Dave Guilford on April 26, 2021, 12:29:58 PM
Yep.  There's a reason why I'm not letting go of my Yorkville Unity rig anytime soon!  The cost of upgrading "to the next level" is significant with a quickly diminishing return on investment. 

Dave, knowing what an SM80 costs (which I do), if that number scares you away you're probably not ready to make the investment yet.  Larger systems don't do well with cutting corners or subscribing to the "box a month" plan let alone the added costs of rigging and transport that often go along with it.   

That number doesnít scare me at all.  As I mentioned , I just bought a mobile stage lol.  I just donít have the extra $5k right now, and Iím using the stage right now.  Iím looking at a quick (inexpensive) solution until itís time for the real upgrade.  Scalability would be nice, but Iím not seeing much option there except for QRX212 and rotate horns when a second pair comes along.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Dave Guilford on April 26, 2021, 12:38:41 PM
You dismissed the SM80s straight off as "too expensive" but it looks like many of the suggestions here are not much cheaper or even considerably higher priced.

Certainly didnít dismiss - I think I even listed them first!  I still have the quote from you , and truthfully thatís where I probably want to end , but the money isnít in the cards until gigs start rolling in next month.

That said - some of these options are less than half the cost of those Danleys. 
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Ron Bolte on April 26, 2021, 01:16:04 PM
Riley's Deltamax solution is a good one if you can find it...

Hey Doug,
And we might know of a warehouse with a low miles DeltaMax rig... only driven on Sundays by a little old Symphony Orchestra...

The amps and processing are long gone, but the cabinets are near showroom, just dusty from sitting a long while.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 26, 2021, 01:47:33 PM
Hey Doug,
And we might know of a warehouse with a low miles DeltaMax rig... only driven on Sundays by a little old Symphony Orchestra...

The amps and processing are long gone, but the cabinets are near showroom, just dusty from sitting a long while.

Yeah that came to mind immediately. 

OP should consider contacting Ron.  He won't make any money on the deal, and they have never been listed afaik. 
And they have never been outdoors.

It should be simple to roll a DSP preset for these.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Dave Guilford on April 26, 2021, 02:36:31 PM
Hey Doug,
And we might know of a warehouse with a low miles DeltaMax rig... only driven on Sundays by a little old Symphony Orchestra...

The amps and processing are long gone, but the cabinets are near showroom, just dusty from sitting a long while.

Specs were tough to track down but it seems they only 126dB max. Is there something about them Iím missing?
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 26, 2021, 05:07:13 PM
Specs were tough to track down but it seems they only 126dB max. Is there something about them Iím missing?

It depends on how the measurement is done.  I recall EV being fairly conservative (honest LOL). The factory sheet says 126 continuous, 132 max.

Also, it appears the spec includes operation with the accompanying controller. IIRC it uses sense lines to monitor the amplifier outputs and limit accordingly.  It may be the limited settings are conservative, like the TX-4 Yorkville setup.
Unpowered Meyer kit had a 'safe mode' switch, limiting kicked in 6dB sooner.

I suppose you'll never know until you try.  Jason R. might be able to shed some light on this.  I also forgot how heavy they are.  They are from the time of "if I can pick up that wedge I don't want to use it."

Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 26, 2021, 06:03:54 PM
Too bad you have that weight limit, a pair of KF750 a side is dirt cheap these days and goes LOUD.
I got eight  with six frames back in 2017. Sold the fly frames and made back the initial investment, kept the speakers for now.
Sounds good with greybox processing.

Yes, a pair of 750s will do some work.

Someone mentioned SH-46.  I had the good fortune to work on these, light enough to manage, excellent passive operation, sound fantastic.  But those $$$$ tho....
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Chris Hindle on April 26, 2021, 06:05:57 PM

I suppose you'll never know until you try.  Jason R. might be able to shed some light on this.  I also forgot how heavy they are.  They are from the time of "if I can pick up that wedge I don't want to use it."

Haha. Double 15's and a 2441 potato masher come to mind....
Chris.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Russell Ault on April 26, 2021, 07:23:14 PM
[...] Iím looking at a quick (inexpensive) solution until itís time for the real upgrade. [...]

(*Sigh*, here I go again.)

I'm not sure I've ever said this in LAB, but...

Have you considered renting?

-Russ
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Dave Guilford on April 26, 2021, 11:29:47 PM
(*Sigh*, here I go again.)

I'm not sure I've ever said this in LAB, but...

Have you considered renting?

-Russ

Yes of course I have. No one near me has SM80s.  And Iíll be using these enough moving forward that renting makes no sense at all. The jobs I have early on this season will be fine with smaller speakers.  Iím also here for the conversation and ideas.
Thereís been some very good ones.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Jeff Lelko on April 27, 2021, 06:21:10 AM
No one near me has SM80s. 

Why do they need to be SM80s? 

I know I'm in the minority here by saying this, but having actually heard the SM80s (and other Danley speakers) demo'd at an outdoor venue that I regularly provide sound the SM80s didn't impress me.  Sure they're outstanding for their size/weight, but to me the money spent on them wouldn't be enough of an upgrade to justify the investment.  A selection from the SH Series or a J7 would be more fitting for me.

Let's be honest, once you move beyond MI-level equipment the cost of 2 SM80s is pocket change.  To me the SM80s are the hold-over option until you can afford a larger rig from Danley/Fulcrum/RCF/etc.  If you can't swing those right now either just use what you have or rent something that's "good enough" for the next month - there's no magic bullet and you get what you pay for. 
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Dave Guilford on April 27, 2021, 08:12:09 AM
Why do they need to be SM80s? 

I know I'm in the minority here by saying this, but having actually heard the SM80s (and other Danley speakers) demo'd at an outdoor venue that I regularly provide sound the SM80s didn't impress me.  Sure they're outstanding for their size/weight, but to me the money spent on them wouldn't be enough of an upgrade to justify the investment.  A selection from the SH Series or a J7 would be more fitting for me.

Let's be honest, once you move beyond MI-level equipment the cost of 2 SM80s is pocket change.  To me the SM80s are the hold-over option until you can afford a larger rig from Danley/Fulcrum/RCF/etc.  If you can't swing those right now either just use what you have or rent something that's "good enough" for the next month - there's no magic bullet and you get what you pay for.

Well if youíll reference my original post - youíll see I asked if there was something out there that I donít know about.  Youíd also see that I have limits on what I can hoist.   ::)
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Rich Frembes on April 27, 2021, 10:34:37 AM
Or go nuts.

https://tcfurlong.com/rentals/rental-inventory/loudspeakers/macpherson-monolith-loudspeaker-rental/

Wow...I haven't seen a Monolith since Dave MacPherson first introduced them in, what, early- to mid-90s?  It was....well...it was better than the earlier M1 anyway.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on April 27, 2021, 12:26:45 PM
Can't comment on any of the legacy passives mentioned.
But here's some other random thoughts...

Just reading through the thread, the QRX-212 looks interesting.
I'd be surprised if the SM-80 has the volume you want, in comparison to your SRX725's, even one-per-side vs one-per-side.
The SH-46 surely works for loud. But, i'd expect it's pattern is going to beg for two per side at times.
If you could DIY, I'd say the PM90 or 60's.  Nicely LOUD.

I know you said almost certainly passive...however, i just keep wondering about the DZR 315's for your app.
92lbs, 35" tall. 75x50, 2 per side under weight limit. The high SPL specs don't make sense, but they certainly do go loud...i think their dsp somehow safely milks the SPL.
I have a bud that bought 4 of them, and he can do a lot of larger lounge work with them. He no longer rents my PM90's for his larger gigs, dammit, lol.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Dave Guilford on April 27, 2021, 12:59:08 PM
Can't comment on any of the legacy passives mentioned.
But here's some other random thoughts...

Just reading through the thread, the QRX-212 looks interesting.
I'd be surprised if the SM-80 has the volume you want, in comparison to your SRX725's, even one-per-side vs one-per-side.
The SH-46 surely works for loud. But, i'd expect it's pattern is going to beg for two per side at times.
If you could DIY, I'd say the PM90 or 60's.  Nicely LOUD.

I know you said almost certainly passive...however, i just keep wondering about the DZR 315's for your app.
92lbs, 35" tall. 75x50, 2 per side under weight limit. The high SPL specs don't make sense, but they certainly do go loud...i think their dsp somehow safely milks the SPL.
I have a bud thought bought 4 of them, and he can do a lot of larger lounge work with them. He no longer rents my PM90's for his larger gigs, dammit, lol.

They make passive DZR series, which is the CZR and Iím looking pretty seriously at them.  But the QRX is lead runner
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: John Schalk on April 28, 2021, 06:03:22 PM
Fulcrum FH1596 is probably your best db per dollar value out there barring 20 year old used speakers.  If you want EV MT2 or Deltamax the former owner of my company still has them in a container on our property.
Someone in Michigan was selling four Fulcrum DX1565s for not very much money earlier this year.  The listing was out there for quite a while, although a brief search on FB and Craiglist didn't turn anything up today.  You may want to poke around a bit to see if you can find it.  A speaker like that would be a clear upgrade over your JBLs.  I ran four 12" EV DeltaMax for a few years before replacing them with a pair of DX1295s.  Unless you really like lifting heavy speakers, I think that there are better options out there today.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: John Schalk on April 28, 2021, 06:55:56 PM
Someone in Michigan was selling four Fulcrum DX1565s for not very much money earlier this year.
I found them.  They're on FB Marketplace in Grand Haven, MI.  It's a complete rig with 4 - DX1565, 4 B&C TH18 custom built tapped horn subs, two amps and a Symetrix DSP for 10k.  It's been out there for a while, so it could be a zombie listing.  I have not tried to contact them myself.

MODS - I have no relationship to the seller.  Just a Fulcrum fan who keeps an eye out for deals while sipping his happy hour beer.
Title: Re: LOUDspeakers
Post by: Isaac A Huff on May 17, 2021, 09:02:46 PM
Riley's Deltamax solution is a good one if you can find it.   TX4 was really popular on the LAB in the 90s, pretty much a poor man's Deltamax.  Quality build, quality components, factory fly things.  Checks a lot of boxes, and also had an analog controller. Dave Lowum (where are you Dave) built/helped build a smallish regional company based on TX4s in the Chicago area. I last saw Dave in lower Wisconsin at that famous sausage joint right off the interstate in 1999-2000 I guess.  The sausage joint had a robust small venue attached.  2x TX4 per side, plenty loud, etc.  I imagine TX4 is still in use all over Canada.

I have used QRX-212 quite a bit, passive mode.  They're robust enough to use as side fills on larger stages than you will be fielding.  They're fine for FOH, normally when I was using them stacked on JBL 728s.  They have rigging points and the HF rotates, so you could fly them sideways for sight lines.  I imagine they're even better biamped.   If there are FIR presets for these (Dynacord), that should really make you grin.

I don't have any idea how to get in touch with Dave, but interestingly i bought a bunch of his TX4 inventory when the shop decided to buy more Nexo Alpha. We got MTL2 subs from him as well.  This turned out to be a great rig and served its purpose for many years. The venue using them eventually shut down and the whole rig went to storage. But, 2 of the TX4s are sitting in my basement right now doing stereo duty!  Dave was a great guy to deal with and had driverack presets for this rig that were really good.