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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Thomas Le on October 09, 2014, 02:27:52 PM
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Just hypothetical thinking, but if I were to come across a "super-kit" (kinda rare for a weekender), would 16 be overkill or not enough? What should I take out?
Here's what I came up with:
- kick out (beta 52a)
- kick in (beta 91a)
- kick subkick (generic woofer)
- HH (SM137)
- snare top (beta 56a)
- snare bottom (SM57)
- toms x4 (beta 56a)
- OH x2 (SM137)
- ride (SM137)
- perc sampler "Roland SPD like" (DI stereo feed)
- spare
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Just hypothetical thinking, but if I were to come across a "super-kit" (kinda rare for a weekender), would 16 be overkill or not enough? What should I take out?
Here's what I came up with:
- kick out (beta 52a)
- kick in (beta 91a)
- kick subkick (generic woofer)
- HH (SM137)
- snare top (beta 56a)
- snare bottom (SM57)
- toms x4 (beta 56a)
- OH x2 (SM137)
- ride (SM137)
- perc sampler "Roland SPD like" (DI stereo feed)
- spare
If you were short channels, I'm pretty sure you could "skimp" and only have one kick mic and one snare mic.
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Just hypothetical thinking, but if I were to come across a "super-kit" (kinda rare for a weekender), would 16 be overkill or not enough? What should I take out?
Here's what I came up with:
- kick out (beta 52a)
- kick in (beta 91a)
- kick subkick (generic woofer)
- HH (SM137)
- snare top (beta 56a)
- snare bottom (SM57)
- toms x4 (beta 56a)
- OH x2 (SM137)
- ride (SM137)
- perc sampler "Roland SPD like" (DI stereo feed)
- spare
You're forgetting the second kick drum. No super kit is complete without it.
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Just hypothetical thinking, but if I were to come across a "super-kit" (kinda rare for a weekender), would 16 be overkill or not enough? What should I take out?
Here's what I came up with:
- kick out (beta 52a)
- kick in (beta 91a)
- kick subkick (generic woofer)
- HH (SM137)
- snare top (beta 56a)
- snare bottom (SM57)
- toms x4 (beta 56a)
- OH x2 (SM137)
- ride (SM137)
- perc sampler "Roland SPD like" (DI stereo feed)
- spare
Personally, I would be inclined to skip the inner kick and whatever you have in mind with the subkick, under the snare and the ride mic. Now I have to admit, I'm not sure of all the issues you're thinking of here but to me, less is more. I did a number of events this summer using 4 mics on the kits. Two OH's, kick and an SDC splitting the snare and HH. The more I did it, the more I liked it.
Now of course that approach has it's limitations also (gating , comping not happening) But for the kits I worked with, it was easy and sounded very good.
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You're forgetting the second kick drum. No super kit is complete without it.
Not to mention the Roto-Toms and the gong.
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Not to mention the Roto-Toms and the gong.
And... tubular bells!....
Steve.
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And... tubular bells!....
So... who's mic'ing the rainstick?
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Just hypothetical thinking, but if I were to come across a "super-kit" (kinda rare for a weekender), would 16 be overkill or not enough? What should I take out?
Here's what I came up with:
- kick out (beta 52a)
- kick in (beta 91a)
- kick subkick (generic woofer)
- HH (SM137)
- snare top (beta 56a)
- snare bottom (SM57)
- toms x4 (beta 56a)
- OH x2 (SM137)
- ride (SM137)
- perc sampler "Roland SPD like" (DI stereo feed)
- spare
I have never seen the need for-or gotten a decent sound out of a "sub kick".
It is always "mushy" with no impact-at least the couple of times I have tried. So I gave up trying and just use regular mics and it works out much better-tighter ect.
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For me 16 mics on drums is a nightmare! I have never seen the need for dual mics on the snare and kick. Most gigs, the snare is the loudest thing in the room and gets picked up by every mic on stage! Very often I end up turning down the snare mic completely. When it comes to mics, I am a believer in the "less is more" philosophy, but I do like the sound of close miced toms(Audix D2s).
Funny how so many soundmen act as if the drums are the most important part of the mix. I have seen too many acts where the kick and snare were louder than the vocals.
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Here's what I came up with:
- kick out (beta 52a)
- kick in (beta 91a)
- kick subkick (generic woofer)
- HH (SM137)
- snare top (beta 56a)
- snare bottom (SM57)
- toms x4 (beta 56a)
- OH x2 (SM137)
- ride (SM137)
- perc sampler "Roland SPD like" (DI stereo feed)
- spare
I can get it down to 11... double mic the toms and its 8...
- kick out (D6)
- snare top (Opus-88)
- toms x4 (D2/4)
- OH x2 (NT5)
- perc sampler "Roland SPD like" (DI stereo feed)
I've been doing a Beatles tribute thing with just an OH and kick, it works, but then that's the style.
Mike
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If you are going to double mic the drums, does your board support polarity inversion (for the second mics)? If not, you shouldn't really be double mic'ing drums.
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If you were short channels, I'm pretty sure you could "skimp" and only have one kick mic and one snare mic.
Yeah that's what I'm doing now, just wondering of it's worth it with extra for a more variety palette.
You're forgetting the second kick drum. No super kit is complete without it.
Guess if I cut the inside and subkick then I can squeeze it in. :P
Personally, I would be inclined to skip the inner kick and whatever you have in mind with the subkick, under the snare and the ride mic. Now I have to admit, I'm not sure of all the issues you're thinking of here but to me, less is more. I did a number of events this summer using 4 mics on the kits. Two OH's, kick and an SDC splitting the snare and HH. The more I did it, the more I liked it.
Now of course that approach has it's limitations also (gating , comping not happening) But for the kits I worked with, it was easy and sounded very good.
I've done with smaller setups similar to what you do and it works out good also, this is for bigger stages (local outdoor festivals and the like) so I got more to work with, just wondering if it's worth the trouble.
Not to mention the Roto-Toms and the gong.
And... tubular bells!....
Steve.
So... who's mic'ing the rainstick?
Oh noes! More channels to sacrifice! :o
I have never seen the need for-or gotten a decent sound out of a "sub kick".
It is always "mushy" with no impact-at least the couple of times I have tried. So I gave up trying and just use regular mics and it works out much better-tighter ect.
Personally I've never tried a subkick, good to hear your insight.
For me 16 mics on drums is a nightmare! I have never seen the need for dual mics on the snare and kick. Most gigs, the snare is the loudest thing in the room and gets picked up by every mic on stage! Very often I end up turning down the snare mic completely. When it comes to mics, I am a believer in the "less is more" philosophy, but I do like the sound of close miced toms(Audix D2s).
Funny how so many soundmen act as if the drums are the most important part of the mix. I have seen too many acts where the kick and snare were louder than the vocals.
Yeah I hear ya, been doing a standard 8 setup. I'm working on outdoors so no indoor limitations. Never encountered drums overpowering vocals... yet. I can't do "2 toms 1 57 mic", always weak for some reason even though the toms are close.
I can get it down to 11... double mic the toms and its 8...
- kick out (D6)
- snare top (Opus-88)
- toms x4 (D2/4)
- OH x2 (NT5)
- perc sampler "Roland SPD like" (DI stereo feed)
I've been doing a Beatles tribute thing with just an OH and kick, it works, but then that's the style.
Mike
Standard 8 setup also for me currently. I'm dealing with standard rock/pop acts so OH and kick only won't work well...
If you are going to double mic the drums, does your board support polarity inversion (for the second mics)? If not, you shouldn't really be double mic'ing drums.
Working with GL2200-32 so it's good.
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If you are going to double mic the drums, does your board support polarity inversion (for the second mics)? If not, you shouldn't really be double mic'ing drums.
I was working a small festival in a football stadium years ago, and their plan was to have several bands in one night, Every 30 minutes another band would start. Not much time for setup. So I set up a kick mic and two overheads. This guy shows up with a 12' trailer JUST for his drums. He had EIGHTEEN cymbals, I couldn't count all the toms, and he wanted everything close mic'd. Yeah right, you're gonna have to set up and tear down 5 minutes each, so yeah lets close mic everything, right!
As it turned out, I got really good sound from the 3 mic setup, I'd say at least 85% as good as close micing everything, and no need for soundcheck on the drums.
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For me 16 mics on drums is a nightmare! I have never seen the need for dual mics on the snare and kick. Most gigs, the snare is the loudest thing in the room and gets picked up by every mic on stage! Very often I end up turning down the snare mic completely. When it comes to mics, I am a believer in the "less is more" philosophy, but I do like the sound of close miced toms(Audix D2s).
Funny how so many soundmen act as if the drums are the most important part of the mix. I have seen too many acts where the kick and snare were louder than the vocals.
If you're wanting to get people dancing, they are more important than the vocals.
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I was working a small festival in a football stadium years ago, and their plan was to have several bands in one night, Every 30 minutes another band would start. Not much time for setup. So I set up a kick mic and two overheads. This guy shows up with a 12' trailer JUST for his drums. He had EIGHTEEN cymbals, I couldn't count all the toms, and he wanted everything close mic'd. Yeah right, you're gonna have to set up and tear down 5 minutes each, so yeah lets close mic everything, right!
As it turned out, I got really good sound from the 3 mic setup, I'd say at least 85% as good as close micing everything, and no need for soundcheck on the drums.
Several years ago at a festival, had to convince a drummer that every one of his cymbals did not need to be mic'd; he had a little more than a "standard" kit; he felt that everyone should hear the "excitement" as he does; I assured him they would with 2 mics.
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Not to mention the Roto-Toms and the gong.
And a top and bottom mic for the cowbell
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And a top and bottom mic for the cowbell
In order of importance 15 mics on the cowbell and 1 mic for the other stuff
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Working at the inferno metal festival a few years back, I had the whole left side of a H2K(24 channels) for drums.
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I prefered it in Ye Olden Dayes when we would balance an SM57 between the snare and hi hat and have one overhead.
Steve.
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If you are going to double mic the drums, does your board support polarity inversion (for the second mics)? If not, you shouldn't really be double mic'ing drums.
There is a good reason for reversing polarity on one of the mics but it has nothing to do with the phase of the sound reaching them both. You can't position them with a half wavelength accuracy.
Steve.
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If you're wanting to get people dancing, they are more important than the vocals.
So people won't dance if they can hear the vocals over the rest of the band????? I understand your point, but I don't think drums are ever more important than the vocals. That's just the way I mix and I have never noticed a problem with the band getting people to dance if they are playing dance material.
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If you're wanting to get people dancing, they are more important than the vocals.
A "beat" as in a rhythmic pattern is essential for the concept of "dancing". To say drums are more important that vox, however, means that songs as we know them have no purpose.
I've never read of a non-drummer playing drums in the shower, but almost everyone has sung in the shower...
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There is a guy here in Dayton that tried out for a little project I have going, went to his house and this is what he had.....
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That's terrifying!
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That's terrifying!
What funny is we are doing folk, acoustic type stuff.....sooooo haha! This is for some of his other projects obviously, but as someone else mentioned he used to have to rent a uhaul to bring it to the gigs.
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There is a guy here in Dayton that tried out for a little project I have going, went to his house and this is what he had.....
Most of the drummers I've seen with a kit like that couldn't play it. All show, no go.
Some of the best drummers have small kits.
IMO
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Most of the drummers I've seen with a kit like that couldn't play it. All show, no go.
Some of the best drummers have small kits.
IMO
Agree 100% with this statement. It makes my day when a band shows up with a 3 or 4 piece well tuned kit. IME the big kits are rarely tuned properly and typically just don't give the band the sound they are actually looking for, but they look cool right ::)
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What funny is we are doing folk, acoustic type stuff.....sooooo haha! This is for some of his other projects obviously, but as someone else mentioned he used to have to rent a uhaul to bring it to the gigs.
Wow. That kind of kit must have a setup time measured in days, not hours...
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So people won't dance if they can hear the vocals over the rest of the band????? I understand your point, but I don't think drums are ever more important than the vocals. That's just the way I mix and I have never noticed a problem with the band getting people to dance if they are playing dance material.
I've spent the past 5 years working with 3 cover bands that KEEP the dance floor packed. I ALWAYS make sure the lead vocals are clearly heard. I've never had anyone ask me to turn up the drums, but I've had plenty of folks ask me to turn up the lead vocals.
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A "beat" as in a rhythmic pattern is essential for the concept of "dancing". To say drums are more important that vox, however, means that songs as we know them have no purpose.
I've never read of a non-drummer playing drums in the shower, but almost everyone has sung in the shower...
That was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I think most people here understand the point. I've seen a few cover bands where the drummer could just as well have left them in their cases. I think it's a shame when any hard working musician is missing from the mix.
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That was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I think most people here understand the point. I've seen a few cover bands where the drummer could just as well have left them in their cases. I think it's a shame when any hard working musician is missing from the mix.
Sounds similar to the golfer who gets a new bigger driver every year, but it just makes him slice it farther...
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That was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I think most people here understand the point. I've seen a few cover bands where the drummer could just as well have left them in their cases. I think it's a shame when any hard working musician is missing from the mix.
my job as a sound man is to try and make every instrument audible to everyone in the venue at all times, at the proper balance. If the drums are getting covered up, that's just as wrong as the singer getting covered up.
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i use 13 mics on my kit in the fotos. my kit is not a super kit , its a medium size kit. i started playing double bass before the double kick pedal was invented and thats only 1 extra akg d12e mic. i mic the ride seperatley. the only thing double mic'd is the snare.
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And a top and bottom mic for the cowbell
"Needs more cowbell."
"Top or bottom?"
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"Needs more cowbell."
"Top or bottom?"
i had to put a mic on the cowbell because its not near a mic and wasnt getting picked up.
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If you are going to double mic the drums, does your board support polarity inversion (for the second mics)? If not, you shouldn't really be double mic'ing drums.
just make cables for the bottom mics with pins 2&3 reversed on one end.
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my job as a sound man is to try and make every instrument audible to everyone in the venue at all times, at the proper balance. If the drums are getting covered up, that's just as wrong as the singer getting covered up.
+1. ..dave
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I'm currently looking at a rider that is 19 channels for drums, that includes all drum mics, triggers, iPod and click tracks coming from the drum position.
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My drummer has a double bass kit, 2 floors, 2 toms, 2 snares, 3 rotos. Live I have 12 mics on it. Never had any "Nightmare issues". Never needed or used an overhead condensor.
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My drummer has a double bass kit, 2 floors, 2 toms, 2 snares, 3 rotos. Live I have 12 mics on it. Never had any "Nightmare issues". Never needed or used an overhead condensor.
Well if that set up is appropriate for what you are presenting then great. When it becomes a "nightmare" is when someone thinks it's appropriate and it isn't.
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Resurrecting the thread after using search and not coming up with a lot.
Our drummer has kick, snare, 3 rack toms and 2 floor toms. We have 2-3 female singers, 3 other singers, and other inputs, so I'm limited to 7 channels on my DL1608 for drums. Music is 80's/90's rock with a few 70's thrown in a la Barracuda.
Kick - D6
Snare - 57
Hat - Pro37
OH - Pro37
Rack Toms - I have 3 D2's, but then I'm done with channels, and read in the archives that the D2 doesn't split toms well because of the hypercardoid design.
Floor toms - I have 2 D4's, but same situation.
Would I be better off using 2 OH and aiming one at the rack toms, 1 at hi-hat? I'm a newbie when it comes to drum micing. last show we had a smaller band and had enough channels to mic his whole kit, but ran out of time (guy supposed to run sound never showed, so my gear that was supposed to be for monitors became the PA and I mixed the opening band and us), so I just went with Kick, snare, hat, OH.
Suggestions? Am I overthinking this? Should I sell my D2's and D4's and get more guitar gear?
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Resurrecting the thread after using search and not coming up with a lot.
Our drummer has kick, snare, 3 rack toms and 2 floor toms. We have 2-3 female singers, 3 other singers, and other inputs, so I'm limited to 7 channels on my DL1608 for drums. Music is 80's/90's rock with a few 70's thrown in a la Barracuda.
Kick - D6
Snare - 57
Hat - Pro37
OH - Pro37
Rack Toms - I have 3 D2's, but then I'm done with channels, and read in the archives that the D2 doesn't split toms well because of the hypercardoid design.
Floor toms - I have 2 D4's, but same situation.
Would I be better off using 2 OH and aiming one at the rack toms, 1 at hi-hat? I'm a newbie when it comes to drum micing. last show we had a smaller band and had enough channels to mic his whole kit, but ran out of time (guy supposed to run sound never showed, so my gear that was supposed to be for monitors became the PA and I mixed the opening band and us), so I just went with Kick, snare, hat, OH.
Suggestions? Am I overthinking this? Should I sell my D2's and D4's and get more guitar gear?
Ned...
The greatest thing I ever found for getting more out of fewer mics on a kit is frequency sensitive compression for a pair of overheads. This allows you to compress the cymbal noise while not diminishing the sound coming off the tom heads, in effect letting the OH's "see through" the cymbal wash.
Of course, this was in analog world where you could just insert your choice of processing instead of having to beg the manufacturer to include such features in an upgrade or buy a big boy board running plug-ins.
I don't think ducking will work...
/geeze
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I would leave one mic at each tom and use a couple of mic combiners to save channels. With identical mics the processing can be close enough that you won't miss the extra control of separate channels.
( Ok, it doesn't fall under best practices, but a pair of female xlr to a single male y cable will probably work fine)
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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Currently running:
Kick In
Sub Kick
Snare 1
Snare 2 (There are actually 2 snares)
4 Toms
Hats
Ride
Crash
Crash
Pad L
Pad R
Click
Cue
I mic under not over on the cymbals(other than hats), if there are more cymbals just move one of the under mics between the two(remember to check phasing and positioning).
I find the sub kick can be very useful, low pass at about 80 and gate to the other kick mic really quick, gives you something different, never seen the need for 3 kick mics.
If I had to sacrifice, drop some tom mics, second snare(because I mean really?) and maybe the hats and ride mic.
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Resurrecting the thread after using search and not coming up with a lot.
Our drummer has kick, snare, 3 rack toms and 2 floor toms. We have 2-3 female singers, 3 other singers, and other inputs, so I'm limited to 7 channels on my DL1608 for drums. Music is 80's/90's rock with a few 70's thrown in a la Barracuda.
Kick - D6
Snare - 57
Hat - Pro37
OH - Pro37
Rack Toms - I have 3 D2's, but then I'm done with channels, and read in the archives that the D2 doesn't split toms well because of the hypercardoid design.
Floor toms - I have 2 D4's, but same situation.
Would I be better off using 2 OH and aiming one at the rack toms, 1 at hi-hat? I'm a newbie when it comes to drum micing. last show we had a smaller band and had enough channels to mic his whole kit, but ran out of time (guy supposed to run sound never showed, so my gear that was supposed to be for monitors became the PA and I mixed the opening band and us), so I just went with Kick, snare, hat, OH.
Suggestions? Am I overthinking this? Should I sell my D2's and D4's and get more guitar gear?
Google "Glyn Johns drum miking"
On of the bands I work with regularly has the exact same drum set up and I also am mostly using the dl1608 with them. Indoors in small rooms where I am just reinforcing the kit a bit; I use just 4 mics on the kit (kick, snare, and 2 OHs equi-distant from the snare) and shelf the highs out of the overheads a bit so I can get more of the toms with them. Snare is never is a problem. I do bring the OHs as low as the drummer is comfortable with. You can still get some pretty solid toms doing this.
I will sometimes do the same thing on outdoor stage if the stage is pretty large and I feel I can get the levels of the OHs up quite bit without getting too much of the other backline in them. It does require a real drummer with some stick control. This method works better on a board that allows to you to delay the snare channel to match the OHs, which the dl does not.
On tighter outdoor stages where the backline might be bouncing all over the place I'll use one mic (e604) split across the floor toms, another split on the two higher toms,a single mic on the remaining tom, then kick, snare, OH and hi-hat. If there are going to be vocal mics close to the hi-hat, I may ditch that mic altogether and point the OH towards it a bit.
If the mics you're using don't split well, maybe you are better off micing the toms close and ditching the OH and Hat mics, given the amount of open vocal mics you have on stage. You may need to put up mics that are not plugged in to avoid the drummer bashing the crap out of things that aren't mic'd. Fortunately the drummers I work with regularly trust my judgement and play the same regardless of how I mic the kit.
It may be worth the time invested to do a full set up "soundcheck" that is not at a gig and experiment a bit.
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Myself, our drummer has a 6 piece kit, so I use 6 mics.
Kick: e902
Snare: 90° sm57
4 toms: e904's
Cymbals carry, snare usually carries on its own as well. Decent sized rooms. I'll use overheads & hats if we are playing outside. Inside I skip them.
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I'm originally a drummer, and what got me started in live audio was getting my own mics/mixer/reverb to sub-mix my drums and send a stereo feed to the Main board, as per Dave Weckl's advice. I've since learned that this is harder to pull off in real life and takes all the control away from the FOH engineer.
I mix a lot of Top-40 bands for weddings/events, and my usual Input list is:
Kick (Beta 52)
Snare Top (57)
Snare Bottom (57)
Hi-Hat (Crown CM-700)
1 mic per tom (Beta 98)
Ride-mic'ed from underneath (Crown CM-700)
I get all the top-end Kick click I need from boosting the highs a bit on the Beta 52-depending on the drum. I may add a Beta 91 in the future. I find that the snare often sounds boxy with only a top mic. Adding just a bit of sizzle from the snare bottom (polarity reversed) really makes the drum sound "true". I've also done many gigs with the snare top and bottom mic'ed and never had it up in the mix. This is why I run my snare reverb Pre-fade, as I can still add some "production" without increasing the drum level. Mic'ing the ride from underneath shields the mic from much of the noise of the set. When I turn up the ride mic, I only want the cymbal, not everything else. I'll only add overheads on large stages, as I find my (condenser) vocal mics pick up all the crash cymbals I need.
Back to the original problem: Maybe add a smaller mixer to sub-mix the drums?
-Mark
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I would leave one mic at each tom and use a couple of mic combiners to save channels. With identical mics the processing can be close enough that you won't miss the extra control of separate channels.
( Ok, it doesn't fall under best practices, but a pair of female xlr to a single male y cable will probably work fine)
Jay - thanks and this could be an option. Appreciate it.
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Ned...
The greatest thing I ever found for getting more out of fewer mics on a kit is frequency sensitive compression for a pair of overheads. This allows you to compress the cymbal noise while not diminishing the sound coming off the tom heads, in effect letting the OH's "see through" the cymbal wash.
Of course, this was in analog world where you could just insert your choice of processing instead of having to beg the manufacturer to include such features in an upgrade or buy a big boy board running plug-ins.
I don't think ducking will work...
/geeze
Dick - thanks and appreciate the suggestion. Mackie's Master Fader app for the DL1608 has gates and compression available on each input, aux and output, but not frequency sensitive compression. No inserts, and don't want to buy outboard compression...
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Indoors, for a smaller kit, I could do 3 channels.
Kick (d6 or b52) and a VP88 parallel to and above the kick drum just beside a rack pointed toward the snare.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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I changed the mic setup on my kit. It now has 10 mics ↓
Drum type-Mic type
Bass-Akg D12E
Bass-Akg D12E
Snare-SM57
Tom-SM57
Tom-SM57
Tom-SM57
Tom-SM57
Hihat-Akg C460B/CK61
Overhead-Akg C460B/CK61
Overhead-Akg C460B/CK61
I use to use Akg C460B/CK61 on the toms but went back to SM57. I dont use a separate mic on the ride cymbal anymore because its not needed. I dont use a bottom snare mic for live anymore. The tom mics pick up the cowbell after I relocated them.
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In order of importance 15 mics on the cowbell and 1 mic for the other stuff
I got your cowbell buddy ! And mine dont need its own mic ! lol
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There is a guy here in Dayton that tried out for a little project I have going, went to his house and this is what he had.....
Is that Alex Van Halen's drum kit ? Alex used a lot of show only drums and stuff and usually had electronic tom pads behind them that he played.
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I dont know why mic'n drums has become so complicated. Subkicks and fancy mics and processing. Ian Paices drum solo at Caljam74 sounded great. Ian played the largest Ludwig toms made and tuned them as low a they would go > 16",18",20" with coated heads and thats how they sound . I know I had a set of Ludwigs in the 70's. Ian also had a 26" bass drum tuned high. All the drum mics were SM57 and 2 Sony overhead mics. The drums and cymbals are at a very nice and balanced spl in that mix. That was broadcast live on a few FM radio stations and shown on ABC TV. There wasnt a fancy board or processors. Here is a foto of the actual board that was used. Check out the sound on the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOo5DGKpG64
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Let's talk about what is the least amount channel the drums set should be miced
1: Kick
2: Kick & Overhead
3: Kick, Snare and Overhead
4: Kick, Snare and two overheads.
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Let's talk about what is the least amount channel the drums set should be miced
1: Kick
2: Kick & Overhead
3: Kick, Snare and Overhead
4: Kick, Snare and two overheads.
Some of the best sounding drums I've miced up were with a single SM90 on the floor in front of the kick and a single AKG 451E.
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Let's talk about what is the least amount channel the drums set should be miced
1: Kick
2: Kick & Overhead
3: Kick, Snare and Overhead
4: Kick, Snare and two overheads.
I often use either kick and snare or kick and overhead with the overhead over the snare. This is for small stages/rooms. Even in large rooms, I often will only use one overhead.
And sometimes, that kick mic will be an SM58.
Steve.
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I often use either kick and snare or kick and overhead with the overhead over the snare. This is for small stages/rooms. Even in large rooms, I often will only use one overhead.
And sometimes, that kick mic will be an SM58.
Steve.
I used an SM58 in a kick drum the other day (local support opening for Sweaty Teddy). It was the right mic for the occasion and for the drum.
The kick drum mic sticky thread has 203 posts and 82,000 views. Most of the time if the mic is fully functional and reasonably full range, it will work in a kick drum. Take you to a higher plane of kick drummieness? Maybe not...
One of my favorite moments in kick drum was a jazz gig in a horrible atrium-like venue. Drum mics were an x-y pair of AKG C-480B. I'm mixing mons and FOH from stage left. Drummer looks at me, points to his wedge and then the kick and gives me an "up" gesture. The solution was a narrow (Q of 4 or 5) 3dB bump up @ ~60Hz on his mix's output EQ. Drummer smiled.
I've got a show coming up in a couple weeks where the input list looks kind of like this:
1- KK 1 in
2- KK 1 out
3- KK 2 in
4- KK 2 out
5- SN 1 top
6- SN 1 bot
7- SN 2 top
8- SN 2 bot
9- HH 1
10- HH 2
11- T1
12- T2
13- T3
14- T4
15- T5
16- Ride
17- OH SR
18- OH SL
19- Gong
20- Bar Chimes/toys
21- Samples L
22- Samples R
23- Playback
24- CLK
25- Bass Mic
26- Bass DI
27- GTR SR
28- GTR SL
29- GTR ACC
30- VOX SR
31- VOX
32- SPR
I'm guessing the drum tech *really* earns his pay. 8)
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I don't really get the top and bottom mics on a snare. I have never done it and have never thought the snare sound was lacking because of it.
Steve.
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I don't really get the top and bottom mics on a snare. I have never done it and have never thought the snare sound was lacking because of it.
Steve.
I've done it a few times. With a well tuned snare it's totally unnecessary IMO. I have worked with a few light-hitting drummers where a bottom mic to bring out some of the sound of the actual snares working against the bottom head really added a nice dimension to what they were doing. Ymmv as in most things sound related. In a lot of typical "rock and roll" cases the only thing really being accomplished with the snare is to capture the "crack" of the drum, in which case a bottom mic adds nothing but more cables. Just depends on how the music style and what you're trying to get in the FOH mix.
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I don't really get the top and bottom mics on a snare. I have never done it and have never thought the snare sound was lacking because of it.
Steve.
I was never happy with my snare mic'ing until I starting doing this. I find the snare sounds "boxy" with only a top mic-even scooping the 400-630 range and boosting the hi's. The bottom snare mic only needs to be around 25% of the top mic's volume, but once there the two mic's together give a perfectly natural snare sound.
-Mark
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I don't really get the top and bottom mics on a snare. I have never done it and have never thought the snare sound was lacking because of it.
Steve.
I feel the same way now about the in/out on the kick as I used to about the bottom snare mic, however the first time I mic'd the snare bottom I was glad I did. You should at least try it before making a judgement call. I don't so it very often due to channel count and set up time constraints, but I do see the value now that I've tried it a few times.
If I ever get a decent boundary mc, I will try the In/Out on the kick as well. My expectation of being "wowed" by that is much lower than it was for the bottom snare mic.
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I was never happy with my snare mic'ing until I starting doing this. I find the snare sounds "boxy" with only a top mic-even scooping the 400-630 range and boosting the hi's. The bottom snare mic only needs to be around 25% of the top mic's volume, but once there the two mic's together give a perfectly natural snare sound.
-Mark
My setup when I played (country/Americana act) was:
1 mic inside the kick (D112 right off the beater)
1 condenser under the HH pointed at the shell of the snare 2" below the rim (ala Tim McCulloch's method)
1 kick mic on floor tom (don't remember what it was)
1 condenser under-mic on ride.
The snare was my grandmother's WFL marching drum from the '20's (13 x 9 mahogany, tarted up with modern snare wires rather than the original cat-gut) It was great for that band. It had snap, but could also whump like a mother. ~sigh)
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My setup when I played (country/Americana act) was:
1 mic inside the kick (D112 right off the beater)
1 condenser under the HH pointed at the shell of the snare 2" below the rim (ala Tim McCulloch's method)
1 kick mic on floor tom (don't remember what it was)
1 condenser under-mic on ride.
The snare was my grandmother's WFL marching drum from the '20's (13 x 9 mahogany, tarted up with modern snare wires rather than the original cat-gut) It was great for that band. It had snap, but could also whump like a mother. ~sigh)
I hope you still have grandma's snare drum, that's quite a conversation starter and keepsake.
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Back in the 80s, we used SM58s and SM57s on all drums. A 57 between the hi hat and snare to pick up both, a 58 between two toms and one just one overhead. Four channels, five at most if the floor tom really needed its own!
Steve.
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I hope you still have grandma's snare drum, that's quite a conversation starter and keepsake.
I do still have it, and occasionally still use it! Unfortunately, I decided to re-finish the drum when I was a teenager, and in my ignorance, the stripper I used to remove the old cracked/clouded shellac also removed the hand-painted WFL logo. I suppose I should find someone who could replicate and re-paint the logo. It was beautifully done.
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How about 16 mics on a snare?
;D
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Depends on who is handling the sticks.
I'm usually a fan of kick and snare top/bottom, and 2 nice sounding OH's. On big gigs i also like to close mic everything, but use those close mic's as little as possible. The deciding factor is the balance in the drum set.
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The better-sounding the drums (properly tuned and properly played — by a drummer who knows how to balance the sound of the instrument by how he/she plays it) the fewer mics you can get away with providing that the band can properly balance itself on stage. The less the drummer and band can self-balance, the more they need the help of the sound system.
At most gigs I've attended where everything was mic'd the toms are NEVER loud enough relative to the snare and bass drum, so when cutting-back channels I'd ditch the bottom snare and hat mics long before I'd ditch any tom mics. And *3* bass drum mics??? Give me a break. If it's a real drum (2 properly-tuned heads, no pillow) it only needs a single mic. If the front head is missing and there's a pillow inside it's not really a drum, it's really just a glorified cardboard box and the sound system is creating the final sound, not simply reproducing the input, so it needs all the help you can give it. Regardless, the bass drum should ultimately sound like a drum, not a howitzer.
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Thanks all for the suggestions - this is helpful.
I may try during a rehearsal kick, snare and 2 OH to try aiming techniques, etc, and then I can hear if splitting 2 D2's across 3 rack toms adds that much or not, and same with 1 D4 across 2 floor toms.
If they don't, I have extra 57's to use on the toms instead and the drummer is very good about both dynamics and not hitting the mics.
So if I have time to experiment before our next show, I'll try out these things. Otherwise, will stick to kick, snare, hat, OH, maybe a 2nd OH. This show, will also bring my Airport Express so that I can listen to the drums out front while dialing them in vs. side of the stage - and also find out if I'm mixing the opening act and us on our own gear or not. Given the guy last year only had a 3 input rack mixer, I think I'll plan on mixing the whole night ahead of time. Should be fun with the new KW181 sub, and I know this time to borrow a friends 2xSRM450s to have 4 monitors total.
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Just hypothetical thinking, but if I were to come across a "super-kit" (kinda rare for a weekender), would 16 be overkill or not enough? What should I take out?
My first thought was "Are they out of their minds?" :). Than I got to typing.
Firstly any WELL RUN festival has to have rules & notices advanced to the bands in contract form. This should include something think like "there will be a total of 8 drum mics available (include list)". Let the whiners show up with what they want but all they get is 8. If they have a problem, they can go home and not get paid (always an option). If a couple more mics are requested in advance, charge the promoter more - make this clear in your own contract. Also you should have at least a basic stage plot & input list from each band in advance so you know (there's no oboe mic? Where's the Tuba going to go? :).
I'd agree that for R&R and most modern music, close mic'd drums are essential but logistics are logistics. End of story. That many mics thrown on a drum kit at the last minute is probably going to sound like kaka (the more mics in proximity, the more chance of phase issues, bad bleed, etc...).
OTOH if it's a festival with national acts, there should be set, advanced info from each band in the form of a contract rider. This would include an early sound check and the time to make a monstrosity like that sound good (saved to a scene in your console). It CAN sound good but only with proper prep time. On the fly......you're really taking your chances.
I've managed many festivals and this is the best way AFIK.
Just my thoughts on it.
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How about 16 mics on a snare?
;D
The problem with these type of tests is that it can all vary down to the sound and tuning of the drum and mic's in that close proximity can have an effect due to reflections off the others.
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My first thought was "Are they out of their minds?" :). Than I got to typing.
Firstly any WELL RUN festival has to have rules & notices advanced to the bands in contract form. This should include something think like "there will be a total of 8 drum mics available (include list)". Let the whiners show up with what they want but all they get is 8. If they have a problem, they can go home and not get paid (always an option). If a couple more mics are requested in advance, charge the promoter more - make this clear in your own contract. Also you should have at least a basic stage plot & input list from each band in advance so you know (there's no oboe mic? Where's the Tuba going to go? :).
I'd agree that for R&R and most modern music, close mic'd drums are essential but logistics are logistics. End of story. That many mics thrown on a drum kit at the last minute is probably going to sound like kaka (the more mics in proximity, the more chance of phase issues, bad bleed, etc...).
OTOH if it's a festival with national acts, there should be set, advanced info from each band in the form of a contract rider. This would include an early sound check and the time to make a monstrosity like that sound good (saved to a scene in your console). It CAN sound good but only with proper prep time. On the fly......you're really taking your chances.
I've managed many festivals and this is the best way AFIK.
Just my thoughts on it.
A festival should have a board with at least 48 mic inputs. If a festival is only going to supply 8 drum mics who ever made that rule needs to be fired and the bands need to protest. Not all drummers play "beginner size kits".
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A festival should have a board with at least 48 mic inputs. If a festival is only going to supply 8 drum mics who ever made that rule needs to be fired and the bands need to protest. Not all drummers play "beginner size kits".
A community festival event with local acts is a little (or a lot) different than a fest with Bands You've Heard Of. In the community festival genre the promoters never allow change over time and delays inevitably get blamed on the sound company when the Neal Pert wannabe unpacks and sets up his kit, one item at a time, while on stage (with the reverse at the conclusion). I don't mind eating my plate of crow if it's something we did or didn't do but I'll not take the blame because some skin basher decided his/her ego was more important than the performance schedule.
As a stage manager I have no quibble with cutting any act that can't follow whatever rules or schedule are a part of the performance agreement.
If an act is unhappy with the conditions of performance they are free to not sign the contract and go play some dive bar instead.
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A community festival event with local acts is a little (or a lot) different than a fest with Bands You've Heard Of. In the community festival genre the promoters never allow change over time and delays inevitably get blamed on the sound company when the Neal Pert wannabe unpacks and sets up his kit, one item at a time, while on stage (with the reverse at the conclusion). I don't mind eating my plate of crow if it's something we did or didn't do but I'll not take the blame because some skin basher decided his/her ego was more important than the performance schedule.
As a stage manager I have no quibble with cutting any act that can't follow whatever rules or schedule are a part of the performance agreement.
If an act is unhappy with the conditions of performance they are free to not sign the contract and go play some dive bar instead.
15 minute changeovers are pretty standard. At the community you might have 2 man crew. 8 drums mics would be challenge along wth everything else. If it's local bands I will try to get one of the bands to supply a kit for the day. If there are no takers I will supply a kit myself at no extra charge to the client because it's to my benefit. Beats miking a new kit every 45 minutes.
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A festival should have a board with at least 48 mic inputs. If a festival is only going to supply 8 drum mics who ever made that rule needs to be fired and the bands need to protest. Not all drummers play "beginner size kits".
The bolded text above is an ignorant statement. You're a drummer and should know better. It's akin to saying drummers who use large kits are compensating for their lack of talent. I've gotten great results using 3 mics on standard size kits; it's not the end of the world if one is limited to 8 inputs.
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OTOH if it's a festival with national acts, there should be set, advanced info from each band in the form of a contract rider. This would include an early sound check
Festivals and sound checks? That's a rarity!
Steve.
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Ian Paice of Deep Purple in the early 70's. Looks like the bottom of the tom was mic'd. Looks too far foward to be the bottom of the snare.
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The bolded text above is an ignorant statement. You're a drummer and should know better. It's akin to saying drummers who use large kits are compensating for their lack of talent. I've gotten great results using 3 mics on standard size kits; it's not the end of the world if one is limited to 8 inputs.
BS ! I "NEVER" said drummers that use large kits lack talent ! I NEVER implied that either ! For YOUR info I have been playing drums since 1970 ! I started with a 4 piece beginner kit and play a "LARGE" kit now ! 2 bass drums, 4 toms and a lot of cymbals. If all you have is 8 inputs for drums I will be sure not to recommend you for a large festival. Here are a few foto's of one of my "LARGE" kits. You just dont understand drummers. And no I wasnt very happy at your accusation toward me. And I'm not the one that made the ignorant statement.
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Needs more barn.
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Needs more barn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY0i0WquVqg
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A festival should have a board with at least 48 mic inputs. If a festival is only going to supply 8 drum mics who ever made that rule needs to be fired and the bands need to protest. Not all drummers play "beginner size kits".
Depends what you mean by "festival".
I'm a small operator, and I do a lot of party-in-the-car-park type events. 5 bands, couple of acoustic guitar + singers, 15 minute changeovers with 45 min sets apart from the headliners, who usually get a double-length set. People refer to those as "festivals", just as they refer to Glastonbury as a "festival".
16 channels is plenty: 4 vocals, 4 DIs, 2x mics on short stands for amps, 1x long XLR for a bass amp DI, 5 mics for drums (kick, snare, overhead, couple of toms). If I need another channel, the overhead is first to go.
The band is usually on an elevated stage (open-side truck), so the kit carries well enough if you've got a loud drummer. I keep the kick mic up because the bottom end oomph is nice to have (and gets people dancing), but I'll only bring the rest of the kit in if it's needed.
Many drummers around here are proud of how loud their snare is, so you can guess which fader is the last to get brought up.
I can see that for something big with Bands You Might've Heard Of, you're going to need to mic the hi-hat and cymbals individually, and that'll push the channel count up. I'd expect to be able to get by just fine with 32 channels. You could do 16 channels of drums and still have a bunch of vocal channels, DIs and instrument mics left to play with.
Chris
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BS ! I "NEVER" said drummers that use large kits lack talent ! I NEVER implied that either ! For YOUR info I have been playing drums since 1970 ! I started with a 4 piece beginner kit and play a "LARGE" kit now ! 2 bass drums, 4 toms and a lot of cymbals. If all you have is 8 inputs for drums I will be sure not to recommend you for a large festival. Here are a few foto's of one of my "LARGE" kits. You just dont understand drummers. And no I wasnt very happy at your accusation toward me. And I'm not the one that made the ignorant statement.
But... where's your cowbell ? ;D
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Ian Paice of Deep Purple in the early 70's. Looks like the bottom of the tom was mic'd. Looks too far foward to be the bottom of the snare.
My completely uneducated guess is that's more likely a fallen overhead mic.... :)
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But... where's your cowbell ? ;D
Between the rack toms. It's visible is the last, overhead pic.
Here in Kansas that usually means we get more cows...
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...
I can see that for something big with Bands You Might've Heard Of, you're going to need to mic the hi-hat and cymbals individually, and that'll push the channel count up. I'd expect to be able to get by just fine with 32 channels. You could do 16 channels of drums and still have a bunch of vocal channels, DIs and instrument mics left to play with.
Back in the Olden Days Of Analog we nearly always provided 48 [plus some stereo] inputs at House and Monitors. But in truth, that was usually more about leaving channels untouched for the Headliner and still having some spare channels for the Opener. Just about all the Band's You've Heard Of fit neatly into 24 channels, but would often pad their input list just to insure they got a Big Boy 48 channel console and not someone's 2404 from their garage. It was not uncommon for the BE to walk up to me and immediately tell me i could strike 6-10 of his inputs as he "didn't really need them". Or for me to look over and see 8-10 faders down and untouched while the headliner was playing.
There were of course occasional exceptions. I did PA for a TV shoot at the Kennedy center where Miami Sound Machine was the "House Band" for a number or performers [including of course Gloria...]. All i did was the submix of the band to feed the main FOH guy for the show. He was using a 24-channel PM-3500. I had a 52 channel PM4K and filled Every Single Channel.... :)
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Look at this rube with his silly beginner's kit!
(http://ultimateclassicrock.com/files/2012/03/Rich.jpg)
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Since when is there a relationship between kit size and the quality/experience level of a drummer?
Edit. Oops same time
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But... where's your cowbell ? ;D
I got your cowbell ! clang a clang clang ! lol
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Look at this rube with his silly beginner's kit!
(http://ultimateclassicrock.com/files/2012/03/Rich.jpg)
I know its awful ! Actually thats not a beginners kit, Buddy has 3 toms, thats an advanced kit. After I had my 4 piece(beginners kit) for a few years I added a 3rd tom and had a kit like Buddys. I called it a Buddy Rich kit.
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Depends what you mean by "festival".
I'm a small operator, and I do a lot of party-in-the-car-park type events. 5 bands, couple of acoustic guitar + singers, 15 minute changeovers with 45 min sets apart from the headliners, who usually get a double-length set. People refer to those as "festivals", just as they refer to Glastonbury as a "festival".
16 channels is plenty: 4 vocals, 4 DIs, 2x mics on short stands for amps, 1x long XLR for a bass amp DI, 5 mics for drums (kick, snare, overhead, couple of toms). If I need another channel, the overhead is first to go.
The band is usually on an elevated stage (open-side truck), so the kit carries well enough if you've got a loud drummer. I keep the kick mic up because the bottom end oomph is nice to have (and gets people dancing), but I'll only bring the rest of the kit in if it's needed.
Many drummers around here are proud of how loud their snare is, so you can guess which fader is the last to get brought up.
I can see that for something big with Bands You Might've Heard Of, you're going to need to mic the hi-hat and cymbals individually, and that'll push the channel count up. I'd expect to be able to get by just fine with 32 channels. You could do 16 channels of drums and still have a bunch of vocal channels, DIs and instrument mics left to play with.
Chris
We call events like Lalapalooza a festival. If it's a band or bands in the park we call it "bands in the park" or "music in the park" and dont reefer to those as festivals. I would not expect a 48 channel board for something like that and many times the drums are not mic'd.
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I know its awful ! Actually thats not a beginners kit, Buddy has 3 toms, thats an advanced kit. After I had my 4 piece(beginners kit) for a few years I added a 3rd tom and had a kit like Buddys. I called it a Buddy Rich kit.
See at 9:00: [yt]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FvLuP4Kya8U[/yt] :)
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Since when is there a relationship between kit size and the quality/experience level of a drummer?
Edit. Oops same time
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There shouldnt be but I have met drummers that seemed afraid of playing anything larger than a 4 piece kit. The only thing more toms gives you is more notes or tones. Neal Peart could not have made the Rush songs sound like they did with one or 2 toms. Some songs only need one tom for the fills. 4 toms and 2 bass drums gives me the "option" to have 4 different tom notes and play patterns and beats on 2 bass drums that cannot be played on one bass drum. Hal Blain of the famous Wrecking Crew had a lot of toms made so he could get different sounds. Cherokee Nation would not have sounded right with 2 toms. Hal Played on that recording. http://www.rockhall.com/inductees/hal-blaine A foto of Hal Blaines studio kit that was played on many recordings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDYQ7273-bA
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We call events like Lalapalooza a festival.
Who's "we"?
This is exactly my point, anyway - the word "festival" can apply to a wide range of events.
Chris
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Who's "we"?
This is exactly my point, anyway - the word "festival" can apply to a wide range of events.
Chris
me and all the musicians I know and friends of mine here in los angeles,
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me and all the musicians I know and friends of mine here in los angeles,
And I was a Valley Boy before the Valley was popular.
Tim "Mr San Fernando" Mc
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Look at this rube with his silly beginner's kit!
(http://ultimateclassicrock.com/files/2012/03/Rich.jpg)
Most of the time, that second floor tom was just used as a towel holder. He usually only played on 2 toms.
Studio work is much different than live. The ability to discriminate pitch, particularly with the typical overcooked subs, is much less. I play a 5 piece reconfigured to 1 up 2 down to gain access to the ride. I try to have a large pitch difference between the drums so that anything played across them actually sounds like something. Often I'll just play it as a 4 piece. I also don't do very large low tuned floor toms as to me they're fairly indistinguishable from the kick. Doing straight rolls down a series of toms to me just kills the groove. So I tend to play short simple fills or linear things that sound like a beat. It's about phrasing and time for me, keep the groove going. Suddenly stopping the groove in the middle of a song to do two or more bars of 16 notes of vaguely descending pitch unhinges the song IMHO.
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But... where's your cowbell ? ;D
There was one on the first pic.
But, need more cowbell !!
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Festivals are gatherings of folks to hear multiple bands.
At my level, some of my gigs are known as festivals. Last weekend I went up to Lowell and enjoyed their festival (google lowell folk festival).
Yes, the big multistage events are also festivals but so is the Waltham Steampunk Festival.
I think someone's britches are not growing fast enough.
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And I was a Valley Boy before the Valley was popular.
Tim "Mr San Fernando" Mc
Zappa should have done a valley boy song instead of the disco boy song. lol ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfzfLw6OSJU
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And I was a Valley Boy before the Valley was popular.
I have no idea what that means in your context, but the rockabilly band I play guitar in is The Lonesome Valley Boys... so I must be one as well!
Steve.
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I have no idea what that means in your context, but the rockabilly band I play guitar in is The Lonesome Valley Boys... so I must be one as well!
Steve.
The valley girl song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb21lsCQ3EM
Lonesome cowboy Burt song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Is0JEbFRNqI
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Between the rack toms. It's visible is the last, overhead pic.
Here in Kansas that usually means we get more cows...
Thanks for pointing it out Tim.
haven't seen one is a couple of years..... Must be getting soft. ::)
Chris.
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My first thought was "Are they out of their minds?" :). Than I got to typing.
Firstly any WELL RUN festival has to have rules & notices advanced to the bands in contract form. This should include something think like "there will be a total of 8 drum mics available (include list)". Let the whiners show up with what they want but all they get is 8. If they have a problem, they can go home and not get paid (always an option). If a couple more mics are requested in advance, charge the promoter more - make this clear in your own contract. Also you should have at least a basic stage plot & input list from each band in advance so you know (there's no oboe mic? Where's the Tuba going to go? :).
I'd agree that for R&R and most modern music, close mic'd drums are essential but logistics are logistics. End of story. That many mics thrown on a drum kit at the last minute is probably going to sound like kaka (the more mics in proximity, the more chance of phase issues, bad bleed, etc...).
OTOH if it's a festival with national acts, there should be set, advanced info from each band in the form of a contract rider. This would include an early sound check and the time to make a monstrosity like that sound good (saved to a scene in your console). It CAN sound good but only with proper prep time. On the fly......you're really taking your chances.
I've managed many festivals and this is the best way AFIK.
Just my thoughts on it.
I like your logic and way of thinking
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Hears more cowbell !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3NnvX6GAtI
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A festival should have a board with at least 48 mic inputs. If a festival is only going to supply 8 drum mics who ever made that rule needs to be fired and the bands need to protest. Not all drummers play "beginner size kits".
Spoken like a true gear slut :). Funny thing is, I'm a drummer as well as an audio engineer so I've seen this from both sides. In the end, if your band was offered a decent paying gig but only 8 drum mics were provided, would you refuse to play? My guess is you'd either scale back your kit or share a lot of tom mics.
As has been stated, the turnover time between bands at most festivals is short (15-20 minutes). Can you setup your kit in half of that time (remember the previous drummer has to strike theirs as well)? Unless you're playing high profile gigs where you get plenty of time to setup an sound check, having an overly large kit with everything mic'd just doesn't make sense.
Just my .02 worth
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15 minute changeovers are pretty standard. At the community you might have 2 man crew. 8 drums mics would be challenge along wth everything else. If it's local bands I will try to get one of the bands to supply a kit for the day. If there are no takers I will supply a kit myself at no extra charge to the client because it's to my benefit. Beats miking a new kit every 45 minutes.
Absolutely correct. Most festival sound is Q&D and the easier you can make the changeover flow & the less extra channels you have to deal with, the more you can concentrate on getting a good mix. K.I.S.S. Good talent will prevail :).
There was a discussion on another board about Neil Pert's huge setup. Obviously this is done with at least 1/2 hour for sound check, the mics placement has already been figured out for that particular tour AND he has a drum tech (or two :)) to keep everything well oiled & tuned. Yes Neil is an awesome drummer without question. OTOH much of that is for show for the uninformed audience. I'm sure Neil could play a 4 piece and put on a show that would knock your socks off but since he's rich and has the luxury..... Might as well. Yes he actually uses all of those drums because he can. Does it add quality to the music as a whole? Yes BUT not in a ratio relative to the number of drums (rapidly diminishing returns).
Just some thoughts.
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As has been stated, the turnover time between bands at most festivals is short (15-20 minutes). Can you setup your kit in half of that time (remember the previous drummer has to strike theirs as well)? Unless you're playing high profile gigs where you get plenty of time to setup an sound check, having an overly large kit with everything mic'd just doesn't make sense.
Just my .02 worth
I can set up my kit in 10 minutes. Everything has "memory locks" and is labeled for fast setup. Ditch the hihat,one overhead, and 2 tom mics and 8 will work fine. I would prefer only 2 mics but that doesnt work on a loud kit playing rock n roll. And playing would depend on the pay. I'm 59 so I'm not trying to make it like when I was 18.
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I can set up my kit in 10 minutes. Everything has "memory locks" and is labeled for fast setup. Ditch the hihat,one overhead, and 2 tom mics and 8 will work fine. I would prefer only 2 mics but that doesnt work on a loud kit playing rock n roll. And playing would depend on the pay. I'm 59 so I'm not trying to make it like when I was 18.
Way to go dude! I've only met a few drummers who can do this but you sound like one of them. Same age here (59). So you don't like to waste time either? Love to work with you some day.
Cheers
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If you were short channels, I'm pretty sure you could "skimp" and only have one kick mic and one snare mic.
I tech'd a local music festival gig this past weekend and the headliner's rider noted 10 mics for the drum kit.
I came prepared but with a 20 minute setup time between acts, the drummer let me use what I had been using for the other acts: kick, 3 toms, & two OH's. 'sounded great.
I told him that I could mic his kit as requested but their set would start late....
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As has been stated, the turnover time between bands at most festivals is short (15-20 minutes). Can you setup your kit in half of that time (remember the previous drummer has to strike theirs as well)?
I work on one of the smaller stages at The Isle of Wight Festival. We supply backline and the drum kit and everyone uses that kit with their own snare and breakables if they wish.
We get through about 48 acts over four days with about 16 per day on the last two days. With fifteen minute changeovers, it works very well.
Steve.
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Glad I resurrected this thread and thanks to all for the advice. Now convinced the best thing to do for me is to sell my never used 2x D4's and 3x D2's and keep it simple for gigs we're providing the PA, and put that money into gear I'll use far more often (Focusrite Clarett 8 Pre for home studio).
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I work on one of the smaller stages at The Isle of Wight Festival. We supply backline and the drum kit and everyone uses that kit with their own snare and breakables if they wish.
We get through about 48 acts over four days with about 16 per day on the last two days. With fifteen minute changeovers, it works very well.
Steve.
Yep, drummer brings their own snare and kick pedal. Maybe some cymbals like a preferred ride. Pneumatic adjustable throne and a sturdy easily adjustable snare stand (I love my DW9000 for this, one lever and you can twist the snare smoothly any way you want). Mics stay on toms, kick and OH. Factor in a set of tom top heads for whoever supplied the kit. Some festivals I've played they put new ones on at the beginning and maybe a fresh set for the Saturday headliner.