Post by: Richard Penrose on April 10, 2018, 04:30:48 AM
https://youtu.be/4I2DxwxpOWY
From what I can see in the promo they now have
- Wooden cabinets
- New more powerful amp modules with LCD menu based 96khz DSP
- Woofers have 3” voicecoils compared to the DXR’s 2.5”
- Rotatable horns
- ‘D’ models have Dante ports
Not sure if these are an upgrade over their DXR or DSR range but given my extremely positive experience of the DXR15’s over the past 7 years I’m seriously interested to learn more about these!
Post by: Gordon Brinton on April 10, 2018, 05:45:31 AM
Post by: David Allred on April 10, 2018, 08:14:38 AM
Post by: Tim Weaver on April 10, 2018, 09:24:38 AM
The video made reference to "flared porting" like it is a big deal. Is it a big deal, or just marketing fluff?It was a big deal 50 years ago......
Post by: Richard Penrose on April 10, 2018, 09:33:16 AM
https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/proaudio/speakers/dzr_dxs_xlf/index.html
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on April 10, 2018, 09:45:13 AM
I don't doubt that they will sound good although we don't know what plywood it is made of...
12 M10 rigging points, these seem geared towards fixed install. Ferrite magnets in the subs, guess the extra weight won't bother anyone.
Overall looks good.
EDIT: No powercon? C'mon...
Post by: Richard Penrose on April 10, 2018, 11:17:54 AM
I’ve been an avid user of the DXR15’s which I’ve done hundreds of gigs with. They have been fantastic solid workhorses that haven’t let me down once.
I’ve been looking at the specs of the DZR12 and if Yamaha has tested and measured these the same way as the DXR’s then they go 10hz lower and 6dB louder!? This would be seriously impressive as the DZR12’s use 12” woofer compared to the DXR15’s 15” woofer. Also despite having a wooden cabinet, the DZR12’s are slightly lighter and smaller than the DXR15’s!
I am very keen to hear the DZR12 because if it is a noticeable step up in audio quality, depth of bass and higher output it could be a great upgrade for my work!
Post by: Nick Andrews on April 10, 2018, 01:03:12 PM
Post by: Richard Penrose on April 10, 2018, 01:23:54 PM
Post by: Nathan Riddle on April 10, 2018, 01:29:58 PM
CDDLIVE series; powercon, dante, networkability, rotate horn, coax, FIR, wooden, ~$1.5k
they need to come out with some coax boxes now....
This ^
Better than what QSC did to their K series though. MUCH bigger yawn. :P
Post by: Bill Hornibrook on April 10, 2018, 03:46:12 PM
Is Dante a big deal? Is anyone using it? I like the fact the Yamaha lets you opt out, so I guess it isn't a big deal if you don't want it.
Post by: Tim Weaver on April 10, 2018, 03:48:34 PM
Well at least they got the handles right on the 12" two-ways this time.I'm using the crap out of it. It's kinda the greatest thing ever if you have more than your typical bar-band setup.
Is Dante a big deal? Is anyone using it? I like the fact the Yamaha lets you opt out, so I guess it isn't a big deal if you don't want it.
Post by: Richard Penrose on April 10, 2018, 04:15:39 PM
Yawn.
CDDLIVE series; powercon, dante, networkability, rotate horn, coax, FIR, wooden, ~$1.5k
This ^
Better than what QSC did to their K series though. MUCH bigger yawn. :P
Yes the CDDLive series is a fantastic product but unfortunately too heavy for me. The CDD Live 12 is 28kg vs the DZR12 at 21.4kg.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 10, 2018, 04:20:51 PM
Yawn.
CDDLIVE series; powercon, dante, networkability, rotate horn, coax, FIR, wooden, ~$1.5k
This ^
Better than what QSC did to their K series though. MUCH bigger yawn. :P
Does anyone have MAP on the line yet? I was getting ready to pull trigger, this may change things.
Post by: Stephen Kirby on April 10, 2018, 04:28:47 PM
I'm envisioning one of these over an Orbit Shifter or TH118 in a DJ setup. Might look silly but get back some transport space that the big bin took up. Or maybe over the Captivator 212 for bands. Enough rig for the gig is getting easier to carry all the time.
Post by: James Paul on April 10, 2018, 04:41:27 PM
FWIW, passive versions http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/speakers/czr_cxs_xlf/index.jsp
Post by: Tim Weaver on April 10, 2018, 05:05:39 PM
No pole mount cup on the DZR 3-way models. JBL SRX835P, EV ETX-35P, and QSC KW153 have pole cups.
FWIW, passive versions http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/speakers/czr_cxs_xlf/index.jsp
Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see a 3way model.
Post by: James Paul on April 10, 2018, 05:12:47 PM
Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see a 3way model.http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=ae.yamaha.com&asset_id=70149
Post by: Tim Weaver on April 10, 2018, 05:14:51 PM
http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=ae.yamaha.com&asset_id=70149I see! Said the blind man.....
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on April 10, 2018, 05:30:33 PM
This is based on a quick comparison of the DXR self-powereds, vs the CZR passives.
The boxes/drivers appear to be the same between the two, other than I don't see a passive equivalent of the DXR315.
If you look at the passive specs, the peak spl bullshit that is quoted in the DXR series drops down to the more familiar, noise/pgm/peak... bullshit...
which is a heck of a lot lower than the DXR's claimed peak SPL, and is at least inline with the 'usual new industry specs' bullshit...
The DXR's peak SPL is clearly coming off of the HF driver only, as Chris was pointing out.....
...and you'd better have a really fast peak reading meter ;)
Post by: Tim Weaver on April 10, 2018, 05:52:35 PM
I dunno guys....I'm not seeing anything to get excited about from a SPL point of view.
This is based on a quick comparison of the DXR self-powereds, vs the CZR passives.
The boxes/drivers appear to be the same between the two, other than I don't see a passive equivalent of the DXR315.
If you look at the passive specs, the peak spl bullshit that is quoted in the DXR series drops down to the more familiar, noise/pgm/peak... bullshit...
which is a heck of a lot lower than the DXR's claimed peak SPL, and is at least inline with the 'usual new industry specs' bullshit...
The DXR's peak SPL is clearly coming off of the HF driver only, as Chris was pointing out.....
...and you'd better have a really fast peak reading meter ;)
Pretty much the same thing the DSR's say, but we all know that the DSR 12's are the current reigning cham-peen of the MI-class powered speaker. These will probably be DSR's with a nicer input module and Dante ability. I can see them selling a metric ton of these things to venues that have Dante.
Post by: Jerry Prince on April 10, 2018, 06:17:56 PM
http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/speakers/dzr_dxs_xlf/
Post by: Tom Roche on April 10, 2018, 07:06:27 PM
Post by: Robert Lunceford on April 10, 2018, 07:16:00 PM
Post by: James Paul on April 10, 2018, 07:23:15 PM
The DZR12 has a 1" diaphragm compression driver vs. the 2" in the DSR112.All models in the DSR & DZR utilize 2" NDYM voice coil, 1" exit HF compression drivers.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 10, 2018, 08:09:19 PM
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 10, 2018, 08:10:50 PM
So.....I have to say I'm not up on this Dante thingy.... is it like Behringer's Ultranet ( not that I know anything about that either)
Yes, it's the most popular (an supported) audio over Ethernet standard.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 10, 2018, 08:26:37 PM
So.....I have to say I'm not up on this Dante thingy.... is it like Behringer's Ultranet ( not that I know anything about that either)
Welcome to Hell, your guide will be Virgil....
Dante is the name of a digital audio transport protocol by Audinate.
https://www.audinate.com/solutions/dante-overview
Unlike most other digital audio transport, Dante uses TCP/IP (like the LAN in your home network or WAN like the Internet) packet switched networks (Dante uses other protocols to do housekeeping and word clock but that's for another time)...
https://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/definition/packet-switched
Think of the digitized audio on a Dante network as a water main - you can tap it almost anywhere and get what you need, and even inject it back onto the network. Once you have the digital audio on the network it's largely brand-agnostic, too. Any device that is Dante-compliant can play along.
If you have a Dante network that rings a facility, campus or theatre you can, in theory, configure i/o devices to access the network at pretty much any point... Each device has a unique identifier and signals can be routed to & from each device. Powered speakers, mixers, wireless mics...
CATegory cable or fiber, suitable for the amount of data on the network, works. No special cabling or infrastructure requirements beyond having Dante-compliant data switches (see threads on Classic LAB for this bit of fun).
Dante has quirks and our own Andrew Broughton seems particularly adept at finding those quirks. Go, Andy!
That's a bit of Dante in a nutshell.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 10, 2018, 09:09:04 PM
Welcome to Hell, your guide will be Virgil....
Dante is the name of a digital audio transport protocol by Audinate.
https://www.audinate.com/solutions/dante-overview
Unlike most other digital audio transport, Dante uses TCP/IP (like the LAN in your home network or WAN like the Internet) packet switched networks (Dante uses other protocols to do housekeeping and word clock but that's for another time)...
https://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/definition/packet-switched
Think of the digitized audio on a Dante network as a water main - you can tap it almost anywhere and get what you need, and even inject it back onto the network. Once you have the digital audio on the network it's largely brand-agnostic, too. Any device that is Dante-compliant can play along.
If you have a Dante network that rings a facility, campus or theatre you can, in theory, configure i/o devices to access the network at pretty much any point... Each device has a unique identifier and signals can be routed to & from each device. Powered speakers, mixers, wireless mics...
CATegory cable or fiber, suitable for the amount of data on the network, works. No special cabling or infrastructure requirements beyond having Dante-compliant data switches (see threads on Classic LAB for this bit of fun).
Dante has quirks and our own Andrew Broughton seems particularly adept at finding those quirks. Go, Andy!
That's a bit of Dante in a nutshell.
Holy Macaroni.....clever stuff then?
Post by: Stephen Kirby on April 10, 2018, 11:26:12 PM
I don't see an Audio Architect like thing and even though there's a lock function, I'm not crazy about 200 DSP settings at the box. Would be nice to broadcast a setup and ensure everything is in an expected state.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 10, 2018, 11:37:28 PM
I foresee more speakers in Debbie D's future.
;D
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 11, 2018, 12:13:45 AM
D D D D. Thumping low end.
R? Air?
Z? Buzzy mids?
:-)
Post by: Steve Garris on April 11, 2018, 02:33:39 AM
Welcome to Hell, your guide will be Virgil....
Dante is the name of a digital audio transport protocol by Audinate.
https://www.audinate.com/solutions/dante-overview
Unlike most other digital audio transport, Dante uses TCP/IP (like the LAN in your home network or WAN like the Internet) packet switched networks (Dante uses other protocols to do housekeeping and word clock but that's for another time)...
https://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/definition/packet-switched
Think of the digitized audio on a Dante network as a water main - you can tap it almost anywhere and get what you need, and even inject it back onto the network. Once you have the digital audio on the network it's largely brand-agnostic, too. Any device that is Dante-compliant can play along.
If you have a Dante network that rings a facility, campus or theatre you can, in theory, configure i/o devices to access the network at pretty much any point... Each device has a unique identifier and signals can be routed to & from each device. Powered speakers, mixers, wireless mics...
CATegory cable or fiber, suitable for the amount of data on the network, works. No special cabling or infrastructure requirements beyond having Dante-compliant data switches (see threads on Classic LAB for this bit of fun).
Dante has quirks and our own Andrew Broughton seems particularly adept at finding those quirks. Go, Andy!
That's a bit of Dante in a nutshell.
I'm a weekend warrior doing 300 seat clubs. Typically this box would be used as a monitor, but let's say it's a main over a sub. What exactly would be the benefit of Dante for me?
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 11, 2018, 05:00:06 AM
Post by: Gordon Brinton on April 11, 2018, 05:17:43 AM
I'm a weekend warrior doing 300 seat clubs. Typically this box would be used as a monitor, but let's say it's a main over a sub. What exactly would be the benefit of Dante for me?
Other than on-the-fly control and hot-swapping outboard gear, not much. Basically you'd have to buy two more pieces of gear to go between your mixer and speakers, (a switch and a laptop).
EDIT: BTW, your mixer would need to be Dante capable too.
Now if you had a more complex system, then you would begin to see more advantages.
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on April 11, 2018, 05:40:52 AM
Post by: ThomasA(lbenberger) on April 11, 2018, 06:14:17 AM
Yawn.
CDDLIVE series; powercon, dante, networkability, rotate horn, coax, FIR, wooden, ~$1.5k
This ^
Better than what QSC did to their K series though. MUCH bigger yawn. :P
Hi Nathan!
Sure about your pricing?
While I didn't get a quote on a specific system, the pricelist I got says: (all prices in EUR excl. VAT)
CDD-LIVE15B 3.750,-
CDD-LIVE12B 3.260,-
CDD-LIVE8B 2.440,-
CSX-LIVE118B 3.995,-
CSX-LIVE218B 6.520,-
I know, nobody pays list prices, however, 1500 USD seems a bit far off from those prices. Were you talking about the 15" version?
Regards, Thomas
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 11, 2018, 10:35:08 AM
I'm a weekend warrior doing 300 seat clubs. Typically this box would be used as a monitor, but let's say it's a main over a sub. What exactly would be the benefit of Dante for me?
Almost no benefit with the risk of additional points of failure compared to your current setup.
Post by: Nathan Riddle on April 11, 2018, 11:19:22 AM
Hi Nathan!
Sure about your pricing?
While I didn't get a quote on a specific system, the pricelist I got says: (all prices in EUR excl. VAT)
CDD-LIVE15B 3.750,-
CDD-LIVE12B 3.260,-
CDD-LIVE8B 2.440,-
CSX-LIVE118B 3.995,-
CSX-LIVE218B 6.520,-
I know, nobody pays list prices, however, 1500 USD seems a bit far off from those prices. Were you talking about the 15" version?
Regards, Thomas
This is the price list I have. My 1.5k was what I figured people could get them for from a good dealer. I'm a little off, but not by much.
List price:
Csx 218: $4995 USD
Csx 118: $2,595 USD
CDD-Live 8: $1595
CDD-Live 10: $1995
CDD-Live 15: $2295
Me, Mike Pyle, Lee Buckalew and a few others sell/install them.
Does anyone have MAP on the line yet? I was getting ready to pull trigger, this may change things.
Negative, my distributior says Yamaha hasn't finalized pricing yet.
I could see these being very good for installs. It's obviously a win for Yamaha.
Post by: Richard Penrose on April 11, 2018, 12:13:39 PM
DZR 10 - £989
DZR 12 - £1089
DZR 15 - £1289
DZR 315 - £1535
DZR 10-D - £1189
DZR 12-D - £1089? think this must be an error and should be £1289?
DZR 15-D - £1449
DZR 315-D - £1745
DXS 15xlf - £1389
DXS 18xlf - £1485
DXS 15xlf-D - £1690
DXS 18xlf-D - £1685?
These prices are from gear4music.com . They say estimated delivery is 19th-23rd April!?
I have to say the prices seem very reasonable and competitive. I'm itching to try out the DZR12's but need to sell some stuff first before I can order some to try.
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on April 11, 2018, 12:26:36 PM
I'm a weekend warrior doing 300 seat clubs. Typically this box would be used as a monitor, but let's say it's a main over a sub. What exactly would be the benefit of Dante for me?
Daisy chaining monitors can be nice....
Post by: kel mcguire on April 11, 2018, 01:40:12 PM
I sort of evaluate the specs in a way where I assume every mfgr marketing dept. of this product classification is boasting, exaggerating similarly across the board. Sort of a re-leveling of the playing field if you discount the exaggerations. So, I would assume these new DZR will outperform the DSR at least a little bit..but not nesescarily at the SPL numbers listed. Still, a boost in power amp and DSP that might yield a clean 2-3db performance is impressive.
The 10" model is really attractive if it might come pretty close to the DSR112 performance. The 3-way looks intriguing too, but too bad it cannot go up on a tripod. That means a stack of subs or flying. Rotatable horn lenses? Could be nice.
Not a snooze in my opinion…but I didn't expect a game changer upgrade. I suspect a yamaha motivation to beat it's rival QSC to market. One expects an upgrade to the aging, clip-prone KW series. Perhaps QSC answer might be more than just putting the K.2 module into a wood cab. The K.2 is quite impressive for me so far.
Post by: Bill Hornibrook on April 11, 2018, 02:09:40 PM
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on April 11, 2018, 02:55:14 PM
Wonder when we'll see them in Canada.
Post by: ThomasA(lbenberger) on April 11, 2018, 03:09:51 PM
This is the price list I have. My 1.5k was what I figured people could get them for from a good dealer. I'm a little off, but not by much.
List price:
Csx 218: $4995 USD
Csx 118: $2,595 USD
CDD-Live 8: $1595
CDD-Live 10: $1995
CDD-Live 15: $2295
Me, Mike Pyle, Lee Buckalew and a few others sell/install them.
Negative, my distributior says Yamaha hasn't finalized pricing yet.
I could see these being very good for installs. It's obviously a win for Yamaha.
interesting. thats about 50% from what my list says. (after EUR-USD conversion, taken the 15" for an example)
however... back to the yammies. :-) thanks!
Post by: Dave Pluke on April 11, 2018, 06:55:26 PM
The 10s sound interesting. If they go as loud (with subs) as the DSRs that could be a very nice compact set up.
Not sure how much difference it makes, but seeing the horn offset from center on the 10" version bothers my sense of symmetry. The larger models are in line.
Dave
Post by: Geert Friedhof on April 11, 2018, 08:51:37 PM
Post by: Scott Harris on April 12, 2018, 04:51:14 PM
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on April 12, 2018, 09:46:37 PM
Did anyone else notice the "2,000 watt" amp in the DZR is split as 1,000 to the woofer and 1,000 to the tweeter?The telling spec is that the continuous power is listed as 920w for LF but only 380w for HF, so I suspect the 1000w Peak rating for the HF is more fibbing. This is also the same total continuous power(1300w) as the DSR series.
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on April 13, 2018, 03:38:44 AM
The telling spec is that the continuous power is listed as 920w for LF but only 380w for HF, so I suspect the 1000w Peak rating for the HF is more fibbing. This is also the same total continuous power(1300w) as the DSR series.
It might also be that they just wanted to use the same amp module for everything (like the QSC K-series), and then use the DSP to clamp down the HF amplifier's output so you don't burn the driver. Without limiters, it might well manage 1000w for a brief period.
Chris
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 13, 2018, 07:18:40 AM
interesting. thats about 50% from what my list says. (after EUR-USD conversion, taken the 15" for an example)
however... back to the yammies. :-) thanks!
Slight correction to keep this from causing any problems.
As of the November pricelist they are;
CDD-LIVE218 = $4995.00
CDD-LIVE118 = $2695.00
CDD-LIVE15 = $2495.00
CDD-LIVE12 = $2295.00
CDD-LIVE8 = $1750.00
Lee
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on April 13, 2018, 08:51:17 AM
It might also be that they just wanted to use the same amp module for everything (like the QSC K-series),
That is a good possibility, but that still means that calling it a 2000w box is as big a lie as calling the original K-series a 1000w box was.
Post by: David Allred on April 13, 2018, 09:22:56 AM
That is a good possibility, but that still means that calling it a 2000w box is as big a lie as calling the original K-series a 1000w box was.Pop a couple of 600w DYS's in a zip-lock and staple is inside the cabinet. That'll give the spec sheet a boost. ;D ;D
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 13, 2018, 10:58:31 AM
It might also be that they just wanted to use the same amp module for everything (like the QSC K-series), and then use the DSP to clamp down the HF amplifier's output so you don't burn the driver. Without limiters, it might well manage 1000w for a brief period.
Chris
Gee, our I-Tech HD 12000s should blow up HF every day..... ;)
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 13, 2018, 03:24:36 PM
Post by: John Fruits on April 13, 2018, 06:08:29 PM
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 13, 2018, 06:25:02 PM
I wonder what the warranty is for this line? I'm thinking of the epic saga of "Debbie's DSR Dilemma" and the issue of the 7 year warranty that at least one service center insisted was actually a 5 year warranty. The only reference on WARRANTY (http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=countrysite-master.prod.wsys.yamaha.com&asset_id=60863) I could find shows even shorter terms for some products.
I read in the paperwork that came with my replacement DSR that the warranty terms have changed so this might be the same for the DZR's too. Now the standard warranty is 2 years BUT if you register the product they will add 5 years.... so same result.
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on April 13, 2018, 06:37:00 PM
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 13, 2018, 07:20:25 PM
Post by: Renard Hurtado on April 13, 2018, 09:15:24 PM
I see that the 15” woofer in the DZR 315 is mounted or loaded different when compared to the Kw153, ETX35P and SEX835, does it has any acoustic value ?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on April 14, 2018, 03:32:59 AM
Chris
Post by: Renard Hurtado on April 14, 2018, 12:45:30 PM
Yep, the short horn will add some efficiency in the 300Hz+ range.
Chris
Maybe because of this ( horn) loading, there is no place for a ( well placed), pole socket ?
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 14, 2018, 02:55:48 PM
I wonder what the warranty is for this line? I'm thinking of the epic saga of "Debbie's DSR Dilemma" and the issue of the 7 year warranty that at least one service center insisted was actually a 5 year warranty. The only reference on WARRANTY (http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=countrysite-master.prod.wsys.yamaha.com&asset_id=60863) I could find shows even shorter terms for some products.Yea, that was me (told only 5 year and had to send them their own PDF to prove it).
I can see by Debbie's post that they are still offering a 7 year warranty; however, they are using the "register" feature to limit their obligations since lots of people will fail to register and lose their warranty. Behringer's X32 warranty is like this as well. Perhaps this is a new industry trend?
I am looking forward to hearing a pair of these when they come out. I think it is a good move for Yamaha since the DSR series really does sit too close to the DXR series. The DSR was made to compete in the era of the PRX612 and I think Yamaha simply over-shot the market a little with their design. Their followup product was the DXR series which has some significant cost downs in it to improve their margins. I think they realized that a box that sounded good, but with less output still met the majority of the bar band users.
I mean really, my DSR's headroom goes largely unused since one of them is more than a match for the XLF subs I pair them with (in fact, the DSR can hang with a pair of the XLF's). It is when I turn things up that the DSR's really shine above the crowd. The low mids are amazing and the horn stays clear as a bell. What you hear most people describe this as is "the vocals really remain clear in the mix".
The introduction of higher end features like Dante kind of shows where they are headed with this product.
Post by: Callan Browne on April 14, 2018, 06:36:24 PM
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Post by: Thomas Le on April 15, 2018, 12:34:23 PM
Little preview from PL+S 2018
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 15, 2018, 12:53:33 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q4aWtqJsPY
Little preview from PL+S 2018
The subs are now base reflex! The price will be "a little bit more than the DXR series". That is also good.
It sounds like they are going with the JBL PRX/SRX model of pricing and sound quality.
Post by: Richard Penrose on April 15, 2018, 02:54:45 PM
Post by: Robert Lunceford on April 15, 2018, 05:25:39 PM
Maybe because of this ( horn) loading, there is no place for a ( well placed), pole socket ?
Who wants to lift a 92 lb speaker onto a tripod?
Out of curiosity, what is the heaviest speaker that comes with a manufacturer installed pole cup?
Post by: Robert Lunceford on April 15, 2018, 05:32:06 PM
Post by: James Paul on April 15, 2018, 05:53:09 PM
Who wants to lift a 92 lb speaker onto a tripod?
Out of curiosity, what is the heaviest speaker that comes with a manufacturer installed pole cup?
With an additional pair of willing and capable hands and feet in addition to mine I am game, and there is the horizontal tripod in speaker tilt up from floor method as an option.
FYI, a sampling
Mackie HD1531 @ 96 lbs, pole socket
JBL SRX835p @ 95lbs, pole socket
EV ETX-35P @ 84lbs, pole socket
Post by: John Penkala on April 15, 2018, 05:54:55 PM
Who wants to lift a 92 lb speaker onto a tripod?
Out of curiosity, what is the heaviest speaker that comes with a manufacturer installed pole cup?
EAW EP2A - 135 lbs
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 15, 2018, 08:52:41 PM
Is the decision to use IEC instead of powercon based on the target market being MI level users?
Perhaps targeted at the forgetful - a non-locking IEC cord will work if they forget/lose the nice locking cable Yamaha provided.
Post by: Renard Hurtado on April 15, 2018, 08:56:42 PM
Maybe they could have made a bracket line the DvTachnologies Igenia series has, with locking pins .
I use ultimatesupport TS99b, speakerstands with my EV ETX-35P, I can get the whole box above 1.75m, this helps the projection ( throw)of the speaker !
If you stack them on two dingle suba, they won’t be high enough.
I
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 15, 2018, 10:02:18 PM
I kinda feel like a whiner now ;)
Post by: Robert Lunceford on April 16, 2018, 12:09:50 AM
Wow guys. I complain about the 47lbs of my DSR112's when putting them up on a pole.
I kinda feel like a whiner now ;)
Along with the weight, the design of the cabinet and handle placement are contributing factors as to how easy, or difficult, it is to get a speaker on a pole. At 65 lbs I have no trouble getting a Danley SM 80 up onto a pole by myself. Mostly because of the shape of the cabinet and excellent placement of the handles.
Post by: Richard Penrose on April 16, 2018, 05:13:28 AM
Definitely want to hear these now!
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on April 16, 2018, 05:45:59 AM
Wow guys. I complain about the 47lbs of my DSR112's when putting them up on a pole.
I kinda feel like a whiner now ;)
Worst thing I've ever had to put on a pole was SSE Betamax.
Take EV Deltamax (the 15" version, with the DH1a compression driver), remove handles, add steel until it weighs 43kg.
PITA to work with, but eight of those on a stage was really staggeringly loud.
Chris
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 16, 2018, 06:39:20 AM
Is the decision to use IEC instead of powercon based on the target market being MI level users?
Yes.
But the whole powercon=truely pro thing is a bit farcical. When you compare it to other power connectors, powercon is the scart of the power world.
These would never be accepable connectors in construction, mining, factory, aviation or military applications.
Even in the installed market in facilities not already filled with powercon, powercon can be a barrier to sales. You want to use a power connector not recognised by the electrical code? My insurance might not cover me? Umm... Maybe we'll buy something else.
Post by: Corey Scogin on April 16, 2018, 11:44:17 AM
I have just had a reply from Yamaha and they said the DZR12 definitely goes deeper than the DXR15’s. They also said the DZR’s are designed to not only be the loudest in its class but also offer the deepest bass extension in its class.
Definitely want to hear these now!
I'm disappointed that they're trying to make a 12" box produce "deep bass" like everyone else. The focus on reproducing 80+Hz with the DSR12 is what makes it stand out above the crowd. The DZR sounds like a step back toward joining the crowd and gaming the specs. I have my doubts that it'll sound as good as the DSR for this reason. I'm not saying it can't be done but there seems to be an inverse relationship between sound quality/output and bass extension in smaller boxes. I look forward to in-the-wild reviews.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 16, 2018, 02:32:09 PM
I'm disappointed that they're trying to make a 12" box produce "deep bass" like everyone else. The focus on reproducing 80+Hz with the DSR12 is what makes it stand out above the crowd. The DZR sounds like a step back toward joining the crowd and gaming the specs. I have my doubts that it'll sound as good as the DSR for this reason. I'm not saying it can't be done but there seems to be an inverse relationship between sound quality/output and bass extension in smaller boxes. I look forward to in-the-wild reviews.
I must admit Corey I have considered this too. My DSR's cannot reproduce lows like some other 12's can and definitely nowhere close to some 15's. I don't want them to!!!
They do what they are supposed to do unlike anything else in their price range. Clear pronounced but warm mid range and highs with acceptable lows depending on the application. I always use mine with subs so I have never required anything under 100hz anyway. Surely this important feature has to become compromised to achieve a deeper response.
Post by: Richard Penrose on April 16, 2018, 04:26:50 PM
I'm disappointed that they're trying to make a 12" box produce "deep bass" like everyone else. The focus on reproducing 80+Hz with the DSR12 is what makes it stand out above the crowd. The DZR sounds like a step back toward joining the crowd and gaming the specs. I have my doubts that it'll sound as good as the DSR for this reason. I'm not saying it can't be done but there seems to be an inverse relationship between sound quality/output and bass extension in smaller boxes. I look forward to in-the-wild reviews.
I must admit Corey I have considered this too. My DSR's cannot reproduce lows like some other 12's can and definitely nowhere close to some 15's. I don't want them to!!!
They do what they are supposed to do unlike anything else in their price range. Clear pronounced but warm mid range and highs with acceptable lows depending on the application. I always use mine with subs so I have never required anything under 100hz anyway. Surely this important feature has to become compromised to achieve a deeper response.
These are very good points. I have tried some speakers by various manufacturers that claim their 10” speakers go down to 50hz @ +/-3dB (which on paper should be deeper than the DXR15’s at 49hz @ -10dB) but in real world useage there was a lot of port turbulence and by the time I’d rolled off the lows they had pretty much the same depth of bass as any other 10” speaker I’d tried within the same price range.
I have to admit I’m a little sceptical about the performance of the bass response of DZR12’s. However, Yamaha has claimed they easily go deeper and louder than the DXR15’s whilst being a step up in audio quality and clarity so they’ll be worth an audition based on my excellent experience of the DXR15’s.
I’m hoping to get a pair here at some point to compare to my DXR15’s. Ideally I’d like to have both the DZR12’s and DXR15’s connected to separate mix outs from my A&H QU-PAC and fully mic up a band and be able to switch between the speakers to get a better idea of how they sound.
Proof will be in the listening!
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on April 16, 2018, 05:38:50 PM
Having conducted some pretty thorough testing on a similar speaker, I expect there'll be some dynamic EQ that cuts in quite early that'll take away quite a lot of that LF extension. The better drive units will mean there's more headroom until they need to apply cuts to keep cone excursion in-check, but a 12" cone can only do so much.
Interested to see how this plays out.
Chris
Post by: Al Poulin on April 16, 2018, 06:44:25 PM
Post by: Al Poulin on April 16, 2018, 06:45:18 PM
FWIW, I expect the DZR will manage the stated low-frequency extension, at low volumes.
Having conducted some pretty thorough testing on a similar speaker, I expect there'll be some dynamic EQ that cuts in quite early that'll take away quite a lot of that LF extension. The better drive units will mean there's more headroom until they need to apply cuts to keep cone excursion in-check, but a 12" cone can only do so much.
Interested to see how this plays out.
Chris
Yorkville has been doing this for quite some time starting with the original NX55P speaker that went down to 45hz -/+3DB. It works well at low levels (kind of like the loudness switch on older receviers), but some sweeping filters gradually step in to reduce deeper response and prevent over-excursion. Most of Yorkville's modern offerings work like this including the new Elites, but the Elites and Parasource perform better at higher levels because of the multi band limiting. The newer version 2 of the NX55Ps also have improved processing that keeps things sounding better (more transparent) when the woofer limiting takes effect. In the case of the NX55P however, the speaker quickly sounds bad once into woofer limiting as only the compression driver gets louder - leaving you with a much different (and worse) sound than what you started with. My current DXR15s start off with much less bass than NX55P, PS12P and EF-12P, but the DXRs remain consistent in MAINTAINING the balanced sound they started with, and up to surprising levels... I have no doubt the DZR series will be impressive if you take into account what they've been able to achieve with the DXR line, that uses pretty average transducers BUT manages to get the absolute most out of them with top notch processing.
Al
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 18, 2018, 09:33:02 PM
I'm disappointed that they're trying to make a 12" box produce "deep bass" like everyone else. The focus on reproducing 80+Hz with the DSR12 is what makes it stand out above the crowd. The DZR sounds like a step back toward joining the crowd and gaming the specs. I have my doubts that it'll sound as good as the DSR for this reason. I'm not saying it can't be done but there seems to be an inverse relationship between sound quality/output and bass extension in smaller boxes. I look forward to in-the-wild reviews.Good point Corey.
Perhaps Ivan could chime in on the design trade-offs needed in order to achieve lower frequencies in a smaller box?
My own engineering "spidey sense" tells me that you never get something for nothing. The DSR112 has a very nice sound and output, but it doesn't even pretend to handle any LF below 70Hz. Perhaps as suggested, this is why it handles everything else so well?
On the flip side they have likely put some serious processing DSP into the new speakers. The DSR FIR filter was already quite good, I expect that the DZR will have improvements. I guess it is not beyond belief that Yamaha could make a 12" speaker with the characteristics listed in their specs.
Question.....
Nearly all speakers today have a frequency response graph they publish. What SPL are they done at?
The reason I ask is that it makes all the difference in the world. Sure, you can make a little noise at 40Hz with a 12" speaker and at a lower volume show a fairly flat response curve, but turn up the volume to a live venue level and I wonder what the frequency response curve looks like then? Certainly not the same as it was at lower levels.
FYIW, I believe that this is how you can get a 10" speaker that looks like it has the frequency response of a 15" speaker. Pretty misleading really.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 18, 2018, 10:14:58 PM
Question.....
Nearly all speakers today have a frequency response graph they publish. What SPL are they done at?
The level is on the other axis of the graph
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on April 19, 2018, 03:56:32 AM
Good point Corey.
Perhaps Ivan could chime in on the design trade-offs needed in order to achieve lower frequencies in a smaller box?
My own engineering "spidey sense" tells me that you never get something for nothing. The DSR112 has a very nice sound and output, but it doesn't even pretend to handle any LF below 70Hz. Perhaps as suggested, this is why it handles everything else so well?
I'm not Ivan, but here's the quick run-down.
As you go lower in frequency, you need to move increasing amounts of air to maintain SPL. That's why a 3" HF unit can keep up with a few 18" subs. It works out as 4x the volume of air moved per octave down you go.
For a given cone size, moving more air means more cone movement, which is fine until you start exceeding the amount of linear cone movement available (generally known as Xmax - exact definitions vary, but it's accepted that things will start sounding bad past Xmax). Generally, "better" drivers will have more Xmax than "cheaper" drivers, though there are a lot of factors at play.
The DSR112's limited low-frequency extension means you don't need to use much cone excursion to get really loud in the 70Hz+ range. As a result, you don't necessarily need a fantastic driver to do that job.
From what I can tell, the DZR range uses better drivers than the DSR range, but they're also making some serious demands of those drivers - a 12" box rated for use down to 39Hz..?
Hope they've got around 4x the Xmax of the DSR drivers if they want to keep up in output.
From what I can tell, the DSR drivers have 3" coils and look to be closely related to the Eminence Kappalite range. Even being conservative with the estimate, you might say the DSR units have 4mm of one-way linear cone travel. Eminence's numbers show 6.2mm.
Here's one of the best midbass units in the world: https://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/product-detail/mb12n405/292433
4" voice coil, lots of power handling, very efficient, etc etc.
Xmax is 7mm.
I believe this might technically be a subwoofer driver: http://www.faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=201050120
But you could use it for midbass duties. 12.45mm Xmax.
I could carry on, but there's no PA 12" driver with 16mm of one-way linear cone travel.
As a result, I expect the DSR range will get louder before needing to engage the limiters, but the DZR range will get close and have more LF extension if the drivers are a good step up from the DSR's.
You can help that by using clever multi-band dynamic EQ that cuts down the areas where cone excursion is highest (I'm certain all the Yamaha active speakers do this), but now you've got a cabinet that's changing it's own frequency response for the sake of a couple more dB of output, and that's not really for me.
Chris
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 19, 2018, 07:42:59 AM
The level is on the other axis of the graph
A frequency response curve is defined by "amplitude vs frequency".
There are two standards used. The first one is normalized at 0.
In this version my understanding is that DB is a measure of attenuation or amplification. 0db means that the speaker response is linear at that frequency. 10db would mean that the output frequency is amplified by 10db at that point. With this graph, you really don't know how loud the output was when the measurement was taken.
It is also possible for the graph to show an absolute reading of output vs frequency. In the case of the PRX812 it appears they did the test at around 100db SPL on average. I am not sure about how the SPL was measured though (full space, half space, 1 m, 10 m, etc, etc).
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 30, 2018, 08:28:02 AM
Post by: Jeremy Young on May 30, 2018, 05:12:32 PM
Not that Tim missed anything in his Dante overview on reply # 27, but to build on that: small Dante systems don't *require* switches, and the laptop is only *required* for initial setup (to route paths on the Dante network).
Now that Dante is shipping their AVIO adapters (which require POE so easiest done through a POE switch anyway), it's getting pretty easy to connect a system and in the case of Dante-connected powered speakers with integral DSP, it reduces the number of conversions (analog to digital) in the signal path. Once configured via laptop, the connections can be made anywhere on the network (there are no dedicated ins or outs, so whether you're connecting a laptop to a switch at FOH or an amplifier to a switch at the stage, the pre-programmed routing works every time).
For example, instead of XLR connectors for signal that require specific dedicated outputs (from your mixer or stagebox) run to specific monitors (so for eight mixes you'd need eight separate XLR cables), you can daisy chain Dante signals box-to-box in whatever order you want. Mix 1 will always send data to wedge 1, if that's how you've configured it. Somewhere like a school that may already have networks installed throughout a multi-use room, one could hypothetically connect their Dante-enabled mixer at FOH position to a network socket in the wall near it, and connect their Dante-enabled-stagebox to a network socket in the wall near it. Similarly Dante enabled DI boxes or USB converters allow you to connect aux devices/laptops anywhere on the network, saving a lot of extra cable runs and subsequent securing of those cable runs.
I'm thinking about trying out one of the new Dante AVIO to AES adapters to link my A&H iLive (48khz dante out) to my EV DC-one processor (48khz AES in). This would allow digital signal flow all the way from the A&H pre-amp to the DC-one outputs. Time will tell whether I hear a difference but it's an interesting concept. I'm already using Dante to connect signals between my two iLive systems and loving it. 64 channels of bi-directional audio over a cable the thickness of a pencil? OK!!! Built-in redundancy with only one more pencil-thick cable? Take my money already (wait, they already did).
Post by: Luis_Marquez on June 02, 2018, 04:30:08 PM
Anyone heard of a USA release date for the DZR series?Yamaha DZR is now on the Yamaha USA site. Could be just around the corner.
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on June 02, 2018, 04:35:51 PM
Yamaha DZR is now on the Yamaha USA site. Could be just around the corner.With infocomm next week you will see a bunch of new product introductions from many manufactures.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Post by: Richard Penrose on June 27, 2018, 04:10:33 PM
Looks like they'll be hitting the stores in the UK around end of August/early September. Looking forward to trying the DZR12's when they are available.
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on June 27, 2018, 11:00:47 PM
I noticed that the DZR's won "Best In Show" at InfoComm.I thought every new product won best of show.
Looks like they'll be hitting the stores in the UK around end of August/early September. Looking forward to trying the DZR12's when they are available.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Post by: Luis_Marquez on June 27, 2018, 11:13:56 PM
Looks like they'll be hitting the stores in the UK around end of August/early September. Looking forward to trying the DZR12's when they are available.
[/quote]
Anyone know how much the DZR line is going to sell for?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 27, 2018, 11:48:42 PM
I thought every new product won best of show.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I don't put much faith in those awards. If it's like the IT/Telecom trade show world those are strictly pay to play awards. They come with different promotion, advertising and placement options. They will even create a category for you.
On the other side of the coin production services for these events are wildly profitable. A basic break out room line this with a screen, dress kit, projector, wireless, mixer and SoS is 5 times what punters charge to bust their balls in a bar gig with a shit cover band.
Post by: Mike Pyle on August 02, 2018, 06:45:46 PM
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on August 02, 2018, 10:33:54 PM
Post by: John Simoson on August 16, 2018, 11:03:28 AM
Post by: David Morison on August 16, 2018, 12:00:41 PM
Any updates or price announcements yet?
Only a handful of online places here have any pricing, so the pre-order prices visible now may come down once they're actually in stock across multiple outlets.
That being said, here's advertised, online prices from one retailer (pricing in GBP, DSR series inc for comparison, Dante enabled models typically £100 more than these):
| Size | DZR | DSR |
| 10 | 989 | - |
| 12 | 1089 | 824 |
| 15 | 1289 | 977 |
| 15 3 way | 1535 | - |
FWIW, HTH, AOMLA,
David.
Post by: Sean Zurbrick on August 16, 2018, 01:16:23 PM
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/search.php?s=Yamaha+DZR
DZR10 - $1,150
DZR10-D - $1,300
DZR12 - $1,250
DZR12-D - $1,350
DZR15 - $1,350
DZR15-D - $1,450
DZR315 - $1,600
DZR315-D - $1,750
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on August 16, 2018, 02:06:54 PM
$1549CAN for DZR12
$1449CAN for DZR10
Non Dante only available to start with. Showing stock arriving tomorrow. I have a couple of the 12's preordered to try out. Looking forward to A-Bing against our DSR12's
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on August 16, 2018, 07:12:53 PM
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 16, 2018, 10:02:20 PM
HA, our online ordering system shows 2) DZR12 shipped as of tonight. That usually means a next day delivery. Might I be the first person on PSW to have hands on one? Stay tuned.
[ENVY]You bastard[/ENVY]
I am really looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the speakers.... especially since you also have the DSR112's to compare them against.
Keep us posted!
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on August 16, 2018, 11:43:57 PM
[ENVY]You bastard[/ENVY]
I am really looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the speakers.... especially since you also have the DSR112's to compare them against.
Keep us posted!
Me too ( or maybe not ;))
Post by: Jay Marr on August 17, 2018, 10:50:31 AM
HA, our online ordering system shows 2) DZR12 shipped as of tonight. That usually means a next day delivery. Might I be the first person on PSW to have hands on one? Stay tuned.
NICE! Can't wait to hear the compare to the DSR (not that you volunteered to do that, but...)
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on August 17, 2018, 12:38:39 PM
Post by: Steve Garris on August 17, 2018, 02:55:06 PM
Unfortunately, deliveries came and went today with no DZR's in sight. Guess they'll come Monday. Of course I'm out of town Monday.
Looking forward to buying everyone's used DSR's now that they are junk!
Post by: Gordon Brinton on August 17, 2018, 06:21:35 PM
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 17, 2018, 09:53:48 PM
I wonder what the other companies are working on to compete with the DZR line. Things could get interesting in the coming year.Good question. With the DSR's dropping in price, and the DZR taking a position against the SRX 8xx and RCF7xx, it will be interesting for sure.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on August 17, 2018, 10:59:23 PM
Looking forward to buying everyone's used DSR's now that they are junk!
Me too... The DZR would have to be very nice indeed and a good step up from the DSR to be worth taking the plunge for me. I'll take discounted DSR's any day of the week!!... ;)
IMHO. if the DZR is that much better than the DSR, it would have to be noticeably better than the SRX series so I might be tempted make the switch if that is the case.....
Just got home from an outdoor show tonight and used the DSR's ..... they do not suck!!
Post by: Gordon Brinton on August 18, 2018, 06:24:02 AM
Me too... The DZR would have to be very nice indeed and a good step up from the DSR to be worth taking the plunge for me...
Me three... I love the way my DSR's sound, but I wish they just had better pattern control. What I mean is, in smaller rooms, I hear a lot of blurring or splatter from wall reflections. It makes it slightly harder to perceive or distinguish every instrument and vocal harmony in the mix. When they are outdoors, that's when they sound a bit more like touring grade boxes with natural sounding mids and highs.
I hope we are seeing the gap between MI and touring grade finally narrowing. If so, I am ready to upgrade.
Post by: Kent Clasen on August 18, 2018, 11:58:46 AM
I am happy with the DSRs, but also would like to hear the DZRs. The 315 looks like a great box and could use more than 1/side.
Edit- we use SRX828SP subs
Me three... I love the way my DSR's sound, but I wish they just had better pattern control. What I mean is, in smaller rooms, I hear a lot of blurring or splatter from wall reflections. It makes it slightly harder to perceive or distinguish every instrument and vocal harmony in the mix. When they are outdoors, that's when they sound a bit more like touring grade boxes with natural sounding mids and highs.
I hope we are seeing the gap between MI and touring grade finally narrowing. If so, I am ready to upgrade.
Post by: MikeHarris on August 18, 2018, 12:54:58 PM
I was surprised at the 'reasonable' up charge for Dante.
If any of y'all get a DZR to audition & compare...plz let us know your thoughts
Post by: Stephen Kirby on August 19, 2018, 12:59:07 AM
Me three... I love the way my DSR's sound, but I wish they just had better pattern control. What I mean is, in smaller rooms, I hear a lot of blurring or splatter from wall reflections. It makes it slightly harder to perceive or distinguish every instrument and vocal harmony in the mix. When they are outdoors, that's when they sound a bit more like touring grade boxes with natural sounding mids and highs.Having done outdoor pattern sweeps with my DSRs and an RTA, I will say that once you get into the horn the evenness of pattern is very good. I also set up a pair and did the same horizontal sweep looking for comb filtering as well as recording a pass and listening to it in my studio. They blend very well from edge to edge.
I hope we are seeing the gap between MI and touring grade finally narrowing. If so, I am ready to upgrade.
My K10s have comparitively a lot of roll off above 5k and a ton above 8k way before the stated pattern edges. If you're in a hard wall venue, I suspect that the DSRs seem to have more reflection issues because there's more HF content at the pattern edges. I use BT-12 tilters to keep stuff off the ceiling and try to aim to keep it off the sidewalls as well.
Post by: Bill Hornibrook on August 19, 2018, 03:49:34 PM
When I was evaluating the DSRs I thought the DSR115 was a tiny bit smoother across the pattern. And I just liked the way the 15's sounded a little thicker with subs.
This is the kind of direct A/B comparison that I always appreciate in this forum. It's something I've suspected but haven't been able to do myself.
My life as a DJ may be changing soon - and rather than playing out on club systems almost exclusively, I may have to bring my own at times. the DZR15 will be in the hunt - at just 55 pounds they're lighter than the DSR, and only a little heavier than my SRX-715s.
I don't imagine current DSR owners will be shedding their babies just yet, but I'd be new to the Yamaha camp.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on August 19, 2018, 09:30:48 PM
the DZR15 will be in the hunt - at just 55 pounds they're lighter than the DSR, and only a little heavier than my SRX-715s.
I just noticed that - yet the DZR12 is basically the same weight as the DSR112.
Post by: Scott Olewiler on August 20, 2018, 04:07:05 PM
I just noticed that - yet the DZR12 is basically the same weight as the DSR112.
If these actually get 5 db louder than the DSR that might be enough for me to sell my (4) 92 lb Yorkville U15Ps and stop carrying tops that I can barely lift any more. I have been using my DSRs over the Unity subs and just tickling the limiters so just a couple more db would make me confident that I can use powered 12s for pretty much everything I do.
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 20, 2018, 07:57:19 PM
If these actually get 5 db louder than the DSR that might be enough for me to sell my (4) 92 lb Yorkville U15Ps and stop carrying tops that I can barely lift any more. I have been using my DSRs over the Unity subs and just tickling the limiters so just a couple more db would make me confident that I can use powered 12s for pretty much everything I do.Hi Scott,
I have noticed that there is a good deal more in the DSR112 beyond where the limit lights "tickle". I have had them where every hit on the bass trips the limiter, and they still sounded perfect". Now the question really is, can the DSR112 run safely at that level every night without damage ..... I really don't know. My usual usage I don't even get close to limiting the DSR's since the subs limit much sooner.
The thing about the DZR that really seems interesting to me is that they claim to cover more LF AND get more SPL. We will see ;)
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on August 20, 2018, 09:32:12 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0YIJQ1jgEI
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on August 21, 2018, 10:05:31 AM
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on August 21, 2018, 12:14:48 PM
First impressions as I'm unboxing one- it's a good looking box. There is foam and fabric on the OUTSIDE of the grill. I can see this being a wear item depending on what kind of gigs you do. I'm primarily using these for monitors so I'm concerned about that.
The entire box seems more bulky than a DSR. It is very close to the same dimensions and weight of a DSR, but because of the angles and flat back, it just seems bulkier. Probably not going to pack in the van quite as tightly as the DSR.
As the manufacturers photos show, the feet are all in the right places. The bottoms won't get nearly as scraped up as the feetless DSR's do in monitor position. Both sides can tilt to monitor angle as the controls are tucked up in the middle.
Handles- I'd be the first to complain about the top handle on the DSR when placing on stands, but for quick maneuvering around a crowded stage, that top handle works quite well. I kept reaching for it on the new box.
The screen and controls are easy to use, but not as easy as the simple couple of switches on the DSR. You can select HPF from 60-120hz in 10hz increments. You can also dial in your own EQ curve with the 6 band PEQ with selectable HPF/LPF/ hi and low shelving. Lot of flexibility. Built in delay too for use as fills/delays. You can save your settings to a thumbdrive to load onto other DZR12's
Dual pole cups, one at 7*. Nicely done.
Very nice build construction. Very pro looking box, and the electronics are nicely protected by the new cabinet design.
How does it sound? Pretty damn nice.
I set up a DSR and the DZR next to each other, set fullrange, eq's etc bypassed, played a couple familiar tracks back and forth, set volumes to be pretty much even and listened back and forth.
Most owners of DSR112 will be familiar with the hyped 8k area. Probably part of why it is such a great box for getting vocals to cut through a dense mix.
That hyped top end is greatly diminished in the DZR. And the bottom is noticeably extended. Not hyped, it just goes smoothly lower as everyone expected. I haven't had a chance to make them sweat yet, but at a moderate volume they definitely sound more natural than the DSR when comparing side by side.
I like them a lot, but I wouldn't be surprised if I end up preferring the DSR's for my type of work. I'll have to take them on a few jobs and see how it goes.
Any questions? I'll leave them set up for the day if anyone wants something checked.
Post by: Jay Marr on August 21, 2018, 12:53:02 PM
And if they do go louder, how do they hold up at that volume.
(thanks for entertaining the questions)
Post by: Renard Hurtado on August 21, 2018, 03:52:16 PM
Hi, Thanks for sharing your experience.
Can you elaborate a little more on the Foam and Fabric in Front of the grill ? Is this like the old Apogee speakers with the foam in front of the grill ?
Sounds scary for rental companies (on a budget).
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on August 21, 2018, 04:21:59 PM
I took the grill off one. The grill itself is the same mesh circle steel of the DSR's, but with a thin layer of foam and a waffle weave type fabric covering the foam (or else a foam back fabric). It's a nice look, and the steel grill obviously protects everything, but I'm just not sure about how it will hold up (or look or keep clean). I suppose if it deteriorates to a certain point, you would simply remove the fabric/foam and have just the grill itself. The grill assembly itself is easy to remove. 4 allen screws on each side and it pops right off.
Hi, Thanks for sharing your experience.
Can you elaborate a little more on the Foam and Fabric in Front of the grill ? Is this like the old Apogee speakers with the foam in front of the grill ?
Sounds scary for rental companies (on a budget).
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on August 21, 2018, 04:38:52 PM
... And perhaps of the drivers themselves?
No worries if not - I understand why you wouldn't want to open up a brand-new pair of speakers, but curiosity is killing me!
TIA,
Chris
Post by: Tom Roche on August 21, 2018, 05:00:02 PM
Any chance you could post photos without the grille?
... And perhaps of the drivers themselves?
No worries if not - I understand why you wouldn't want to open up a brand-new pair of speakers, but curiosity is killing me!
TIA,
Chris
You can see pictures with grills on and off on Yamaha's website.
Yamaha's USA site (https://usa.yamaha.com/products/proaudio/speakers/dzr_dxs_xlf/index.html)
Click on a picture of one of the models and zoom in/out.
I'd like to know more about the foam/fabric. Having it on the outside of the grill seems odd, but it does give the DZR a slightly different look than most other grills. Even so, I'd still be concerned about it showing wear rather quickly.
Post by: Corey Scogin on August 21, 2018, 05:41:56 PM
I'd like to know more about the foam/fabric. Having it on the outside of the grill seems odd, but it does give the DZR a slightly different look than most other grills. Even so, I'd still be concerned about it showing wear rather quickly.
If the foam is removable and washable, that would be a plus. It would potentially keep the speakers looking newer longer. I think that was the idea behind the foam on the Apogees way back.
Post by: Gordon Brinton on August 21, 2018, 05:56:47 PM
I took the grill off one. The grill itself is the same mesh circle steel of the DSR's, but with a thin layer of foam and a waffle weave type fabric covering the foam (or else a foam back fabric). It's a nice look, and the steel grill obviously protects everything, but I'm just not sure about how it will hold up (or look or keep clean). I suppose if it deteriorates to a certain point, you would simply remove the fabric/foam and have just the grill itself. The grill assembly itself is easy to remove. 4 allen screws on each side and it pops right off.I'm sure that foam and fabric would be easy enough to replace, should it ever become necessary. You can buy automobile ceiling/headliner fairly cheap that is already foam-backed fabric or felt.
Post by: Michael Mullin on August 21, 2018, 06:16:36 PM
You are in Canada I believe. What will you be selling these DZR 12's for ?
Thanks,
Mike
Here's the 10 cent tour of a fresh DZR12:
First impressions as I'm unboxing one- it's a good looking box. There is foam and fabric on the OUTSIDE of the grill. I can see this being a wear item depending on what kind of gigs you do. I'm primarily using these for monitors so I'm concerned about that.
The entire box seems more bulky than a DSR. It is very close to the same dimensions and weight of a DSR, but because of the angles and flat back, it just seems bulkier. Probably not going to pack in the van quite as tightly as the DSR.
As the manufacturers photos show, the feet are all in the right places. The bottoms won't get nearly as scraped up as the feetless DSR's do in monitor position. Both sides can tilt to monitor angle as the controls are tucked up in the middle.
Handles- I'd be the first to complain about the top handle on the DSR when placing on stands, but for quick maneuvering around a crowded stage, that top handle works quite well. I kept reaching for it on the new box.
The screen and controls are easy to use, but not as easy as the simple couple of switches on the DSR. You can select HPF from 60-120hz in 10hz increments. You can also dial in your own EQ curve with the 6 band PEQ with selectable HPF/LPF/ hi and low shelving. Lot of flexibility. Built in delay too for use as fills/delays. You can save your settings to a thumbdrive to load onto other DZR12's
Dual pole cups, one at 7*. Nicely done.
Very nice build construction. Very pro looking box, and the electronics are nicely protected by the new cabinet design.
How does it sound? Pretty damn nice.
I set up a DSR and the DZR next to each other, set fullrange, eq's etc bypassed, played a couple familiar tracks back and forth, set volumes to be pretty much even and listened back and forth.
Most owners of DSR112 will be familiar with the hyped 8k area. Probably part of why it is such a great box for getting vocals to cut through a dense mix.
That hyped top end is greatly diminished in the DZR. And the bottom is noticeably extended. Not hyped, it just goes smoothly lower as everyone expected. I haven't had a chance to make them sweat yet, but at a moderate volume they definitely sound more natural than the DSR when comparing side by side.
I like them a lot, but I wouldn't be surprised if I end up preferring the DSR's for my type of work. I'll have to take them on a few jobs and see how it goes.
Any questions? I'll leave them set up for the day if anyone wants something checked.
[/quote]
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on August 21, 2018, 06:41:40 PM
Hello,
You are in Canada I believe. What will you be selling these DZR 12's for ?
Thanks,
Mike
Is that a trick question? Canadian$ MAP is $1549. I can't advertise them for less than that.
Happy to discuss off the forum though. I'm easy to track down.
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on August 21, 2018, 07:43:44 PM
DSR's don't move.
There is going to have to be a considerable sonic improvement for me to go all in on these.
Post by: Kent Clasen on August 21, 2018, 09:56:44 PM
Post by: Gordon Brinton on August 22, 2018, 04:42:33 AM
One other little niggle. I wonder if there will be reports of these rolling off the front of stages. Because of the shape, in monitor position someone resting their foot on the top of the wedge can easily start these rolling back towards the front of the stage. And they don't stop till they're facing the opposite direction.I don't think that it will roll that easily. It's got just as much flat area to sit upon as any other wedge. (Of coarse, we won't know until we actually have one to push against.)
DSR's don't move.
There is going to have to be a considerable sonic improvement for me to go all in on these.
If some moron pushes it over with his foot, I hope he tumbles along with it. Then perhaps a lesson learned.
Post by: Jay Marr on August 22, 2018, 09:16:26 AM
And if they do go louder, how do they hold up at that volume.
(thanks for entertaining the questions)
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on August 22, 2018, 10:21:56 AM
Grills, ya I think a light spray with the garden hose or a gentle wash in a tub would clean these up. Durability might be fine provided you’re using covers or cases for transport. The foam/fabric is glued on, so not removeable by itself.
Post by: Jay Marr on August 22, 2018, 11:08:02 AM
Jay, I probably won’t be able to wring them out for a bit, but will report back when I do. I’d imagine NA dealers will be seeing these immediately.
Grills, ya I think a light spray with the garden hose or a gentle wash in a tub would clean these up. Durability might be fine provided you’re using covers or cases for transport. The foam/fabric is glued on, so not removeable by itself.
Thank you sir.
Post by: Steve Eudaly on August 22, 2018, 01:29:23 PM
Post by: Richard Penrose on August 22, 2018, 02:57:12 PM
1/ Does the DZR12 have a noticeably higher output to the DSR112?
2/ How does the self noise compare between the DZR12 / DSR112 and Yamaha DXR15?
3/ Does the DZR12 go deeper than the DXR15 like the specs imply?
Post by: Steve Crump on August 22, 2018, 05:52:46 PM
I'm looking to possibly buy a pair of the DZR12's myself. I'd be very interested to know the following :-
1/ Does the DZR12 have a noticeably higher output to the DSR112?
2/ How does the self noise compare between the DZR12 / DSR112 and Yamaha DXR15?
3/ Does the DZR12 go deeper than the DXR15 like the specs imply?
No kidding. Looking at the specs makes me wonder where the weak links are...I mean for a guy like me doing music in the park/city type events that will never exceed 500-600 people in support of the local/regional 4-6 pc band and then sometimes the golf course ballroom with no more 200 in attendance. This speaker seems to have great frequency response for such a small box, price seems reasonable, rotatable horn just in case, high measured SPL, manageable weight.
I have been wanting to put together an active rig that I can some how figure out how to fit all of it in my minivan for some shows, so I can leave the trailer at home. Had narrowed it down to the RCF HD32, but the Yamaha DZR has that idea on pause.
I just can't wait to hear real world reviews. Is it providing quality sound, level of output as implied, how does it sound when pushed? I am really looking forward to reading a review when someone has had it out in the wild doing something similar to what I do, or something more. Of course I know I am preaching to the choir on this one.
Post by: Steve Garris on August 23, 2018, 01:10:58 PM
No kidding. Looking at the specs makes me wonder where the weak links are...I mean for a guy like me doing music in the park/city type events that will never exceed 500-600 people in support of the local/regional 4-6 pc band and then sometimes the golf course ballroom with no more 200 in attendance. This speaker seems to have great frequency response for such a small box, price seems reasonable, rotatable horn just in case, high measured SPL, manageable weight.
I have been wanting to put together an active rig that I can some how figure out how to fit all of it in my minivan for some shows, so I can leave the trailer at home. Had narrowed it down to the RCF HD32, but the Yamaha DZR has that idea on pause.
I just can't wait to hear real world reviews. Is it providing quality sound, level of output as implied, how does it sound when pushed? I am really looking forward to reading a review when someone has had it out in the wild doing something similar to what I do, or something more. Of course I know I am preaching to the choir on this one.
I do exactly what you describe every year in my area with an active SRX system. The 15" tops & single 18" subs all fit in my minivan, along with 4 DSR112 monitors, 2 smaller powered monitors, board, mic's everything... including lights. This system has never failed me, and our last show this summer had upwards of 1200 people in the park. I was already told I'm back next year. I run the system to the max and it just sounds great. Not "concert" level, but this crowd enjoys the music at a nice low level.
Post by: Michael Mullin on August 28, 2018, 06:03:31 PM
Do you have any further observations on the performance
of the DZR 12 ?
Regards
Mike
One other little niggle. I wonder if there will be reports of these rolling off the front of stages. Because of the shape, in monitor position someone resting their foot on the top of the wedge can easily start these rolling back towards the front of the stage. And they don't stop till they're facing the opposite direction.
DSR's don't move.
There is going to have to be a considerable sonic improvement for me to go all in on these.
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on August 28, 2018, 09:37:53 PM
Hi BJ,Hi Mike,
Do you have any further observations on the performance
of the DZR 12 ?
Regards
Mike
No sorry. It’s been an extremely hectic week, but I’m hoping to bring them out to a small show on the weekend. Will be using TH118’s for subs so it could be interesting.
Will be back with post gig comments if I do.
Thanks. BJ
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on September 03, 2018, 12:49:18 AM
Today I was supplying for a small festival at an estate. Since they were only about expecting about 200 folks, I thought this may be a nice way to try out my new DZR12’s.
At first I was going to just use them without subs, but decided to unload a single TH118 just to be safe.
All I can say is: Anyone want to buy some gently used DSR112’s? I’ve got 8 for sale.
They sound fantastic and they get loud.
I used one over a TH118 on one side and another solo on a stand on the other side of the stage. I ran the DZR’s with the selectable 60hz hpf as I had the sub set up on an aux. I wanted to see if I could actually use these without subs. Probably not. At least not if you want any low end impact.
But they sound great. Vocals were easy to get above the mix and I used very little channel eq. Also, the onboard dsp was handy. The single speaker was set forward about 12 feet so I was able to use the built in delay to match it up to the other side. Handy.
Bands ranged from folky to classic to pop rock, outdoors with about 300 people at any given time. They got a good workout but I definitely wasn’t going full bore on them.
One other quick thing. The weight is the same as DSR, but the handle placement makes it seem lighter, especially getting it on and off a stand.
The burning question still remains: is it louder and lower than the DSR? Sorry, I wasn’t able to do a direct comparo, but I do feel they have a more even or natural sound than the DSR. They do go audibly lower, just not sure they are louder, but I have no reason to believe they wouldn’t be.
Cheers,
BJ
Post by: James Paul on September 03, 2018, 01:27:55 AM
Pricing info on gently used DSR112`s via ?
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 03, 2018, 03:50:27 AM
Ideally I’d like something that has even better depth of bass whilst being a step up in audio quality.
However, the DZR12’s will have to be a very noticeable step up as I’m still getting clients rave about the results I’m getting with a single pair of DXR15’s. I recently did sound for a new church that will hold roughly 300 people. They are looking to buy a new system and had just had a company in to demo a pair of KV2 EX6 and EX1.2’s. The client loved the KV2 and were set on buying these but were quite shocked by hearing a pair of DXR15’s at a 10th of the price! I’m definitely not saying that the DXR15’s are better than the KV2’s as that would be quite ridiculous but if you just heard the DXR15’s without hearing the KV2’s next to them you would be seriously impressed with the sound (as the clients were). They were so impressed that they are seriously considering getting the DXR15’s and putting the money towards other things.
Looking forward to hear how the DZR12’s compare to the DXR15’s as when I spoke to Yamaha they told me the DZR12’s definitely go lower, louder and sound noticeably better overall.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 03, 2018, 08:55:47 AM
Interesting to hear your experience. I’m hoping to get a pair of the DZR12’s here to compare to my DXR15’s when they become available in the U.K.
Ideally I’d like something that has even better depth of bass whilst being a step up in audio quality.
However, the DZR12’s will have to be a very noticeable step up as I’m still getting clients rave about the results I’m getting with a single pair of DXR15’s. I recently did sound for a new church that will hold roughly 300 people. They are looking to buy a new system and had just had a company in to demo a pair of KV2 EX6 and EX1.2’s. The client loved the KV2 and were set on buying these but were quite shocked by hearing a pair of DXR15’s at a 10th of the price! I’m definitely not saying that the DXR15’s are better than the KV2’s as that would be quite ridiculous but if you just heard the DXR15’s without hearing the KV2’s next to them you would be seriously impressed with the sound (as the clients were). They were so impressed that they are seriously considering getting the DXR15’s and putting the money towards other things.
Looking forward to hear how the DZR12’s compare to the DXR15’s as when I spoke to Yamaha they told me the DZR12’s definitely go lower, louder and sound noticeably better overall.
Richard, I own DXR and DSR boxes and although I highly rate the DXR range (especially for recorded music), for live music (band)- the DSR's are noticeably superior in sound. SO, with that in mind, if the DZR is as good as or better than the DSR as has been said, I do not doubt you'd notice the improved quality from DXR to DZR.
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 03, 2018, 01:50:09 PM
Richard, I own DXR and DSR boxes and although I highly rate the DXR range (especially for recorded music), for live music (band)- the DSR's are noticeably superior in sound. SO, with that in mind, if the DZR is as good as or better than the DSR as has been said, I do not doubt you'd notice the improved quality from DXR to DZR.
I'm looking forward to trying the DZR12's even more now ;)
Post by: Scott Bolt on September 03, 2018, 05:29:45 PM
Finally home from a busy week.I am totally envious of your system :(
Today I was supplying for a small festival at an estate. Since they were only about expecting about 200 folks, I thought this may be a nice way to try out my new DZR12’s.
At first I was going to just use them without subs, but decided to unload a single TH118 just to be safe.
All I can say is: Anyone want to buy some gently used DSR112’s? I’ve got 8 for sale.
They sound fantastic and they get loud.
I used one over a TH118 on one side and another solo on a stand on the other side of the stage. I ran the DZR’s with the selectable 60hz hpf as I had the sub set up on an aux. I wanted to see if I could actually use these without subs. Probably not. At least not if you want any low end impact.
But they sound great. Vocals were easy to get above the mix and I used very little channel eq. Also, the onboard dsp was handy. The single speaker was set forward about 12 feet so I was able to use the built in delay to match it up to the other side. Handy.
Bands ranged from folky to classic to pop rock, outdoors with about 300 people at any given time. They got a good workout but I definitely wasn’t going full bore on them.
One other quick thing. The weight is the same as DSR, but the handle placement makes it seem lighter, especially getting it on and off a stand.
The burning question still remains: is it louder and lower than the DSR? Sorry, I wasn’t able to do a direct comparo, but I do feel they have a more even or natural sound than the DSR. They do go audibly lower, just not sure they are louder, but I have no reason to believe they wouldn’t be.
Cheers,
BJ
Sadly, I have one kid in college, and another to put through in another 5 years. I will have to trudge along with my old DSR112's. Good to hear that the DZR's do not disappoint.
I have had a long love affair with my EV ND767a's as well as my DSR's. Sadly, by all reports, the follow-on product from EV is not as good sounding as the old mic's were. I am really glad to hear that the next-gen Yamaha speakers are a worthy successor to the well loved DSR's. Congratulations to Yamaha. They appear to have released another winner.
I am still looking forward to the A/B comparison ..... pretty please?
Post by: Gordon Brinton on September 04, 2018, 04:33:41 AM
Still waiting for more discussion here.
Post by: Tom Roche on September 10, 2018, 12:07:42 AM
First, I've been a fan of QSC HPR series speakers since they hit the market. They were one of the better MI-level products at their price point; however, it's 10-year old technology—a bit old in today's fast moving market—and they are heavy boxes. The DZR12 weighs 47 lbs, 13 lbs less than the HPR122i. The DZR handles are located in the middle on each side of the cabinet, which should make it easier to lift them onto a stand. By comparison, the HPR handles are located more toward the top of the cabinet. The DZR12s feel less bottom heavy than other speakers. The fabric covered grill looks nice, but I am a little concerned as to how well it will hold up to frequent use in a portable system.
I did not RTFM, but the DSP menu was simply to learn/set up. I set the crossover at 100Hz (same as the HPR). Lows were handled by an Art Welter designed & built 2-12 sub. I hooked everything up and played a variety of music, from classic rock to newer tracks. Here's what was most apparent:
Through the DZR every song sounded noticeably more detailed. Drums and bass guitar had more punch. Snare drums, in general, were more pronounced. With some songs the "crack" of the snare drum came to life, whereas with the HPR it sounded mushy. Vocals and lead guitars were more forward as well. Absolutely nothing shrill or ice pick in the forehead about it. Simply stated, the DZR is very detailed and pleasing. The HPR sounds mushy in comparison. Even with this limited experiment, I'm very happy with the purchase and excited to use them in the wild.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 10, 2018, 12:42:58 AM
I received my pair of DZR12 speakers last week and have yet to use them on a gig as I'm waiting for the covers to ship. In the interim, I did some totally non-scientific comparisons to QSC HPR122i speakers in my rehearsal space....no instruments, just recorded music.
First, I've been a fan of QSC HPR series speakers since they hit the market. They were one of the better MI-level products at their price point; however, it's 10-year old technology—a bit old in today's fast moving market—and they are heavy boxes. The DZR12 weighs 47 lbs, 13 lbs less than the HPR122i. The DZR handles are located in the middle on each side of the cabinet, which should make it easier to lift them onto a stand. By comparison, the HPR handles are located more toward the top of the cabinet. The DZR12s feel less bottom heavy than other speakers. The fabric covered grill looks nice, but I am a little concerned as to how well it will hold up to frequent use in a portable system.
I did not RTFM, but the DSP menu was simply to learn/set up. I set the crossover at 100Hz (same as the HPR). Lows were handled by an Art Welter designed & built 2-12 sub. I hooked everything up and played a variety of music, from classic rock to newer tracks. Here's what was most apparent:
Through the DZR every song sounded noticeably more detailed. Drums and bass guitar had more punch. Snare drums, in general, were more pronounced. With some songs the "crack" of the snare drum came to life, whereas with the HPR it sounded mushy. Vocals and lead guitars were more forward as well. Absolutely nothing shrill or ice pick in the forehead about it. Simply stated, the DZR is very detailed and pleasing. The HPR sounds mushy in comparison. Even with this limited experiment, I'm very happy with the purchase and excited to use them in the wild.
The KW's are 10 years old. I think HPR's are close to 20 years old. Ours are all monitor duty as nobody wants to put them on poles!. I like them better than the KW's. Mights just be the older amps.
I sold some HPR-115's simply because of the weight and I wish I had not. They were great monitors too.
I have a pair of DSR-112's too. They are less than a year old. Interested in the DZR reviews, keep them coming.
Post by: Jay Marr on September 10, 2018, 08:07:02 AM
I think HPR's are close to 20 years old. Ours are all monitor duty as nobody wants to put them on poles!. I like them better than the KW's. Mights just be the older amps.
I have a pair of HPR122s in my basement right now that I just can't bring myself to get rid of.
I like them quite a bit, even though they are a beast to move around compared to some of my other tops.
Very interested to hear the DZRs though. My DSRs are my main gig speaker and I love them, but I'm always stupid enough to upgrade for no apparent reason.
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 10, 2018, 01:43:34 PM
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 10, 2018, 01:59:56 PM
Just found out the DZR’s have arrived in the UK at the distributor so will order a pair of DZR12’s tomorrow. Hopefully they should be here end of the week/early next week and will compare them to the DXR15’s.
I'll be interested to hear what you think Richard. If they do go noticeably lower than the DSR112's, along with the better placed handles, I can see them being the perfect replacement for the DSR112's as those 2 things are the main complaints folks have had.
Personally I always use my DSR's with subs so I have never missed the low end but I would like handles on the sides for lifting onto stands.
Post by: Gordon Brinton on September 10, 2018, 02:10:31 PM
...I'm always stupid enough to upgrade for no apparent reason.
LOL! At least you're honest.
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on September 10, 2018, 02:29:04 PM
Just found out the DZR’s have arrived in the UK at the distributor so will order a pair of DZR12’s tomorrow. Hopefully they should be here end of the week/early next week and will compare them to the DXR15’s.
Where abouts are you?
I'd be interested in a listen.
Cheers,
Chris
Post by: Tom Roche on September 10, 2018, 03:45:08 PM
The KW's are 10 years old. I think HPR's are close to 20 years old. Ours are all monitor duty as nobody wants to put them on poles!. I like them better than the KW's. Mights just be the older amps.
I sold some HPR-115's simply because of the weight and I wish I had not. They were great monitors too.
I have a pair of DSR-112's too. They are less than a year old. Interested in the DZR reviews, keep them coming.
I believe the HPR series hit the market in 2006. We purchased a rig for our venue in 2007 and they were still considered very new on the market. I also think the HPR series sound better than the KW series. We replaced the HPR rig with KW and K series. Only benefit was less weight, but that didn't matter as it was a permanent install.
I have three HPR122i speakers I'm unsure what to do with now that I have the DZRs and DXRs for monitors.
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 10, 2018, 07:01:08 PM
I'll be interested to hear what you think Richard. If they do go noticeably lower than the DSR112's, along with the better placed handles, I can see them being the perfect replacement for the DSR112's as those 2 things are the main complaints folks have had.
Personally I always use my DSR's with subs so I have never missed the low end but I would like handles on the sides for lifting onto stands.
Sure I’ll post my thoughts on these after I’ve tried them out
Where abouts are you?
I'd be interested in a listen.
Cheers,
Chris
I’m based in at the bottom of Cornwall so a long way from Sheffield!
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on September 11, 2018, 03:28:23 AM
Sure I’ll post my thoughts on these after I’ve tried them out
I’m based in at the bottom of Cornwall so a long way from Sheffield!
That's a bit of a drive. One day, perhaps. Always cool to meet new people and talk shop. Could bring some gear down for a play-around, too.
Cheers,
Chris
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 11, 2018, 08:51:24 AM
That's a bit of a drive. One day, perhaps. Always cool to meet new people and talk shop. Could bring some gear down for a play-around, too.
Cheers,
Chris
Yes sounds good :)
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 11, 2018, 08:51:44 AM
Post by: Scott Olewiler on September 11, 2018, 10:00:35 AM
Sure I’ll post my thoughts on these after I’ve tried them out
I’m based in at the bottom of Cornwall so a long way from Sheffield!
That's a Sunday drive for folks in the States. 8) 8)
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 11, 2018, 10:19:55 AM
That's a Sunday drive for folks in the States. 8) 8)
I have to smile..... when we first moved to the USA 25 years ago (anniversary on september 3rd), we couldn't believe how many miles folks drive over here - sometimes just to the store.
Our closest grocery store until recently was 11 miles away and back in the UK we could walk there.....( of course that can happen here too but not as much)
To this day, we still compare distances and get a kick out of it.
When we visit the UK now, everything seems so much closer and driving the length and breadth across the country is nothing....
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 11, 2018, 12:28:50 PM
I have to smile..... when we first moved to the USA 25 years ago (anniversary on september 3rd), we couldn't believe how many miles folks drive over here - sometimes just to the store.You walked 11 miles to the store?
Our closest grocery store until recently was 11 miles away and back in the UK we could walk there.....( of course that can happen here too but not as much)
To this day, we still compare distances and get a kick out of it.
When we visit the UK now, everything seems so much closer and driving the length and breadth across the country is nothing....
I have been known to drive from SF to LA to drop off a part to a friend and drive right back.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 11, 2018, 04:22:53 PM
You walked 11 miles to the store?
I have been known to drive from SF to LA to drop off a part to a friend and drive right back.
No silly - LOL.....although, we did walk a lot more.
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 11, 2018, 05:59:41 PM
Post by: Caleb Dueck on September 12, 2018, 12:07:00 AM
In random news - I'd also like to hear the DZR315
Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk
Post by: Luke Geis on September 12, 2018, 11:20:59 AM
In either case, I too am interested in hearing about the true capabilities of these things. I love my SRX's performance and quality of sound but am disappointed about a rattle that I hope I have fixed ( more about that in another post later ). Needless to say, I am looking to make what is essentially a lateral step, but if the DZR is what it says it is..........
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 18, 2018, 04:25:16 AM
I’m hoping to set up both the DXR’s and DZR’s in the venue I run sound with my QU-PAC and give them a more thorough try out either later today or tomorrow.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 18, 2018, 12:12:39 PM
The DZR’s arrived yesterday and I took one out the box to have a quick try. For a very rough quick test I plugged an mp3 player into the line inputs on the back and played some well known pre recorded music. I had the master output on the DZR12 on full and the line input levels turned to 0. On initial listening the DZR12 sounds much darker and mid forward to the DXR15’s. Also, the DXR15’s were noticeably louder than the DZR’s whilst set up this way.
I’m hoping to set up both the DXR’s and DZR’s in the venue I run sound with my QU-PAC and give them a more thorough try out either later today or tomorrow.
Richard - I find that pre-recorded music sounds better through my DXR's than my DSR's. Warmer and a little easier on the ear. The DSR's really shine though with live music - the vocals cut through - better separation, richer reproduction of brass etc.
I would assume a similar thing will happen with the DZR's vs DXR's.
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 18, 2018, 02:21:45 PM
Post by: Steve Garris on September 18, 2018, 03:23:09 PM
Richard - I find that pre-recorded music sounds better through my DXR's than my DSR's. Warmer and a little easier on the ear. The DSR's really shine though with live music - the vocals cut through - better separation, richer reproduction of brass etc.
I would assume a similar thing will happen with the DZR's vs DXR's.
When you run your DSR's over subs do you engage the HPF on the back or leave it full range?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 18, 2018, 06:21:02 PM
When you run your DSR's over subs do you engage the HPF on the back or leave it full range?
I leave them full range and use the HP switch on the sub instead. I did a bit of a shootout on here a while back comparing the 2 different methods ( HP on subs or tops) and this one won out.
Post by: Steve Garris on September 18, 2018, 07:24:33 PM
I leave them full range and use the HP switch on the sub instead. I did a bit of a shootout on here a while back comparing the 2 different methods ( HP on subs or tops) and this one won out.
Thanks - makes sense.
I'm trying to talk a club owner into buying two of these for his install - to replace k12's.
The club has a DXS18 with a Mackie 18 sub stacked on top of it. With both on it actually works well, sounds pretty good. They're using a digital processor.
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on September 19, 2018, 09:46:22 AM
Yes this will probably be the case. I was more surprised that the DXR's were noticeably louder in this scenario!? It may well be a completely different case when I try both of them with my QU-PAC and various real instrument sources.I wouldn’t get too hung up on a volume difference between those two. It could simply be that the DZR needs more input signal to make a proper comparison.
Post by: Scott Bolt on September 19, 2018, 12:30:38 PM
I wouldn’t get too hung up on a volume difference between those two. It could simply be that the DZR needs more input signal to make a proper comparison.My thoughts exactly. Run them both up to limit and then compare the output. That is the only way to tell.
Of course you will want to be in a decent sized area ... like outside to do it 😀
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 19, 2018, 01:16:21 PM
My thoughts exactly. Run them both up to limit and then compare the output. That is the only way to tell.
Of course you will want to be in a decent sized area ... like outside to do it 😀
Yes - at lowish volumes the DSR compared to the DXR appears to have the same output problem BUT once they are both run hard, the DSR catches up real quick!
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 19, 2018, 03:01:47 PM
1/ When the DZR12's are fed from a mixer into the XLR inputs, they are slightly louder than the DXR15's! This is with both input levels on zero. However, the DZR also has a master output control that ranges from -10dB to +10dB. I had this set to 0 so I'd imagine if this was turned up it would be significantly louder than the DXR's!
2/ The handles on the DZR12's don't distribute the weight evenly! The DZR's feel very top heavy when carrying the speakers with the front facing you. When carrying them like the top half tips away from you quite a bit. Obviously you can carry them with the back facing you but you then end up with the small plastic knobs pressing against you which worries me as they feel they could get easily damaged?
Also, as the handles are horizontal on the DZR's (DXR's are vertical) they are a lot more awkward to put on poles (but almost certainly not as awkward as the DSR's)
3/ Regarding sound both speakers sound quite different! The DXR's are MUCH brighter. Where I've been quite impressed with the DXR's in the past they now sound very plasticy and scooped. I tried both speakers flat and with the FOH DSP settings on. Cymbals were very loud and bright and the vocals were getting masked by these a little. The DXR's sounded even more scooped and the highs now sounded piercing and the lows sounded boomy and muffled. In comparison, the DZR's almost sounded as though they were lacking in the highs with the cymbals being much quieter and softer to the point of being perhaps a little too quiet? However, the mid range was much more present with vocals being much more forward. I put up a mic and did some vocals whilst switching between both sets of speakers and DZR's had substantially more clarity. The vocals sounded fuller/richer and very articulate through the DZR's but never harsh. You could here every word very clearly at the back of the venue with even subtle nuances carrying. However, when I switched to the DXR15's the vocals lost all clarity and sounded very muffled! Drums sound much more natural and punchy through the DZR's with the snare and toms having great clarity punch and fullness. Even more impressively with the FOH setting turned on the DZR's bass and kick drum sounded extremely deep and punchy to the point of almost sounding like there was a sub being used! I've always been impressed with the bass on the DXR15's but I have to say the DZR's do go noticeably deeper and with much more punch! At the back of the venue the kick and bass had a nice warm and deep punch whereas the DXR's didn't quite have the depth and just sounded boomy with less definition and less thump. I would imagine the DZR12's could handle kick drum and bass guitar noticeably better than the DXR15's but haven't tried them properly in this scenario yet.
4/ When I started to push the output of both speakers, the DXR's started to lose coherence but the DZR's kept their composure and focus.
5/ The fans on the DXR's are much noisier than those on the DZR's!
I'm hoping to try both the DXR15's and DZR12's with a band tomorrow running bass, kick, keys, acoustic guitar plus male and female vocals. Will report back with my thoughts in a day or two.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 19, 2018, 03:40:40 PM
Hi guys. I've been comparing both the DXR15's and DZR12's at our 350 seater venue this afternoon. As usual I had both pairs of speakers connected to two different mix outputs on my A&H QU-PAC with volumes set identically on both channels. I did some very basic testing with both pre recorded music and vocals today. The results I found today were quite different! Here's what I've found so far :-
1/ When the DZR12's are fed from a mixer into the XLR inputs, they are slightly louder than the DXR15's! This is with both input levels on zero. However, the DZR also has a master output control that ranges from -10dB to +10dB. I had this set to 0 so I'd imagine if this was turned up it would be significantly louder than the DXR's!
2/ The handles on the DZR12's don't distribute the weight evenly! The DZR's feel very top heavy when carrying the speakers with the front facing you. When carrying them like the top half tips away from you quite a bit. Obviously you can carry them with the back facing you but you then end up with the small plastic knobs pressing against you which worries me as they feel they could get easily damaged?
Also, as the handles are horizontal on the DZR's (DXR's are vertical) they are a lot more awkward to put on poles (but almost certainly not as awkward as the DSR's)
3/ Regarding sound both speakers sound quite different! The DXR's are MUCH brighter. Where I've been quite impressed with the DXR's in the past they now sound very plasticy and scooped. I tried both speakers flat and with the FOH DSP settings on. Cymbals were very loud and bright and the vocals were getting masked by these a little. The DXR's sounded even more scooped and the highs now sounded piercing and the lows sounded boomy and muffled. In comparison, the DZR's almost sounded as though they were lacking in the highs with the cymbals being much quieter and softer to the point of being perhaps a little too quiet? However, the mid range was much more present with vocals being much more forward. I put up a mic and did some vocals whilst switching between both sets of speakers and DZR's had substantially more clarity. The vocals sounded fuller/richer and very articulate through the DZR's but never harsh. You could here every word very clearly at the back of the venue with even subtle nuances carrying. However, when I switched to the DXR15's the vocals lost all clarity and sounded very muffled! Drums sound much more natural and punchy through the DZR's with the snare and toms having great clarity punch and fullness. Even more impressively with the FOH setting turned on the DZR's bass and kick drum sounded extremely deep and punchy to the point of almost sounding like there was a sub being used! I've always been impressed with the bass on the DXR15's but I have to say the DZR's do go noticeably deeper and with much more punch! At the back of the venue the kick and bass had a nice warm and deep punch whereas the DXR's didn't quite have the depth and just sounded boomy with less definition and less thump. I would imagine the DZR12's could handle kick drum and bass guitar noticeably better than the DXR15's but haven't tried them properly in this scenario yet.
4/ When I started to push the output of both speakers, the DXR's started to lose coherence but the DZR's kept their composure and focus.
5/ The fans on the DXR's are much noisier than those on the DZR's!
I'm hoping to try both the DXR15's and DZR12's with a band tomorrow running bass, kick, keys, acoustic guitar plus male and female vocals. Will report back with my thoughts in a day or two.
Thanks for the comparison Richard.
I am keen to hear how the DZR compares to the DSR also.
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 19, 2018, 04:00:39 PM
I looking forward to comparing them out at a rehearsal tomorrow night at our venue.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 19, 2018, 04:09:47 PM
No problem Debbie :) Yes it would be good to hear how the DZR's compare to the DSR's (though I'm not in the market for the DSR's).
I looking forward to comparing them out at a rehearsal tomorrow night at our venue.
That is when they will shine I am sure.
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 19, 2018, 04:21:20 PM
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on September 21, 2018, 12:10:17 PM
Hi guys. I've been comparing both the DXR15's and DZR12's at our 350 seater venue this afternoon.Wow, great and detailed observations.
I've just come off a busy weekend festival and a couple corporate gigs this week, so haven't had time to add some thoughts till now.
I used the DZR12's with a pair of the little new DXS12MKII. Another smallish outdoor venue-about 300 people.
I used the subs on an aux LPF@ 100hz, and the DZR HPF also at 100hz. What a great little system for the size. The DZR's obviously outrun the little subs (2 more would have been about perfect) but it was better then adequate and I got several compliments on how good the system sounded, and comments about the small size.
So far it looks like Yamaha has another winner. Would love to hear some reports about the DZR10's.
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 22, 2018, 08:09:00 PM
Overall the DZR12’s sound deeper, punchier and tighter with a much smoother high end than the DXR15’s. The mid range is also vastly better on the DZR12’s and they go noticeably louder.
Post by: John Ferreira on September 22, 2018, 08:16:46 PM
I took the DZR12’s out on a gig tonight and am very impressed with them! I used them for a band that I have used my DXR15’s extensively. The bass player went straight into the PA through a TC Electronic BH250 bass amp head and during his sound check he noticed that the DZR12’s go noticeably deeper with more punch than the DXR15’s. When the vocalists were soundchecking people noticed the vocals sounded much clearer than normal but without the plastic hyped high end! I found I didn’t need the vocals to be turned up as much as with the DXR15’s to cut through and they sounded much more intelligible!
Overall the DZR12’s sound deeper, punchier and tighter with a much smoother high end than the DXR15’s. The mid range is also vastly better on the DZR12’s and they go noticeably louder.
Thanks for the info but it makes more sense to compare the DZR to the DSR, because the DXR are in a lower league.
I would also be curious on a comparison between DZRs and JBL SRXs.
Post by: Luis_Marquez on September 22, 2018, 10:30:09 PM
Thanks for the info but it makes more sense to compare the DZR to the DSR, because the DXR are in a lower league.
I would also be curious on a comparison between DZRs and JBL SRXs.
[/quote]
+1
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on September 22, 2018, 10:53:54 PM
Post by: Greg_Cameron on September 23, 2018, 04:50:38 AM
I would also be curious on a comparison between DZRs and JBL SRXs.
One thing the SRX-p has over all these boxes in this league is larger format compression driver - 1.5" exit with a 3" diaphragm behind it. That was a major reason why I chose the SRX over anything else out there at the price point. It's going to have more upper mid/high frequency grunt with a true medium format compression driver. That may not be what many need, but it's going to cut through better on loud stages for monitor use and have better throw outdoors compared to a 1" exit driver with a 2" or smaller diaphragm. Seems the lower end boxes these days are going down as small as a 1.4" diaphragm which is not what I'm looking for. Given my druthers, I'd have boxes with a 2" exit compression driver and 4" diaphragm. But that's a lot more $$.
Post by: Scott Olewiler on September 23, 2018, 10:12:39 AM
...have better throw outdoors compared to a 1" exit driver with a 2" or smaller diaphragm.Wouldn't the size /shape of the actual horn have more impact on this than the driver size? The DSR already performs better than it should in the real world based on the specs. We all know that.
I see no reason to assume the DZR can not perform as well or better than the SRX based solely on the specs.
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Post by: Caleb Dueck on September 23, 2018, 10:31:29 AM
I heard the same speakers side by side, but one with 2" exit HF and one with 1" exit. Both are current EV install boxes.
One thing the SRX-p has over all these boxes in this league is larger format compression driver - 1.5" exit with a 3" diaphragm behind it. That was a major reason why I chose the SRX over anything else out there at the price point. It's going to have more upper mid/high frequency grunt with a true medium format compression driver. That may not be what many need, but it's going to cut through better on loud stages for monitor use and have better throw outdoors compared to a 1" exit driver with a 2" or smaller diaphragm. Seems the lower end boxes these days are going down as small as a 1.4" diaphragm which is not what I'm looking for. Given my druthers, I'd have boxes with a 2" exit compression driver and 4" diaphragm. But that's a lot more $$.
Neither sounded "better" than the other but were quite different, even with factory tunings. The 2" had better upper mid range, but had that "blanket over the horn" poor HF that screams "old school" to me. The 1" had smoother HF, but the mid range was weaker and felt slightly scooped.
For me - a high quality 1.4" driver seems to be the best balance. The problem is that the better 1.4" drivers don't come on $1k level models.
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Post by: Richard Penrose on September 23, 2018, 03:27:51 PM
1/ I’ve found the DZR12’s to have quite noticeable air turbulence coming from the ports when running bass through them. The on the DXR15’s this is not noticeable. I spent a long time finding the frequencies causing this and by the time I eliminated those the DZR12’s didn’t quite achieve the same depth of bass as the DXR15’s.
2/ I’ve found some harmonic distortion in the mids that we’re made quite obvious when playing quite harmonically complex chords. At first I thought this was the DZR’s revealing some extra detail but I double checked this through both my Beyer DT880pro headphones and Neumann KH120 / Eve TS108 monitoring setup in my studio. I’ve encountered something similar once before with a popular sub £1000 studio monitor which at first the company didn’t believe as no one had reported it. However after many conversations they sent one of their techs over and after showing them the harmonic distortion they hadn’t heard they now found it so obvious that they stopped make no that monitor!
I’m not saying that the DZR12’s have this issue but there is definitely some odd distortion happening in the mids. Could be a faulty DZR12!?
I do prefer the DZR12’s mid range clarity of vocals, acoustic guitar and piano etc but they don’t have quite the separation I was expecting for a speaker of this price. Also After playing around with the GEQ feeding the DXR’s I was able to improve the midrange noticeably (though still didn’t match the midrange of the DZR’s)!
Whilst I do love certain things about the DZR12’s, I’m not sure I can justify the £1200 price difference.
Post by: Greg_Cameron on September 23, 2018, 04:28:57 PM
Wouldn't the size /shape of the actual horn have more impact on this than the driver size? The DSR already performs better than it should in the real world based on the specs. We all know that.
I see no reason to assume the DZR can not perform as well or better than the SRX based solely on the specs.
The horn is for impedance matching and pattern control. It's not going to add extra output per se, though a tighter pattern means more output within the coverage area to some degree. There's a reason why top performing boxes use 1.4" - 2" exit horns with a 3" to 4" diaphragm behind them - output & lower frequency extension. 1" exit drivers are better now than they ever have been, but you can't get around the physics that a larger diaphragm with a larger motor and a larger exit is going to give you more output which equals more "throw." Now granted, arrayed 1" exit drivers such as those in some line arrays and some of the Danley boxes have a lot of output. But generally speaking, you can't get as much mid band power out them without breakup. 1" exits are better though for HF extension for sure, though the larger format drivers are also better now then they days of old when they started rolling off around 8k. My old Rat Sound boxes have an old JBL 2441 2" exit driver and those don't have a lot of top end sparkle. They're better with the aftermarket Radian diaphragms in them. But those boxes also have an additional 1" exit driver/horn to cover from 8k on up. With a newer high quality 2" driver, I could probably loose the 1" - but those good drivers are very expensive. And the boxes sound fine as is.
But for the sake of this discussion and dealing with 2-way and 3-way boxes, I'd tend to go with one that's got the larger format compression driver so I'm prepared for more situations. The SRXs have some shortcomings. But output isn't one of them for the price range. And they're one of the only offerings at that price point with the larger compression driver. Maybe the only offering for a fully powered and processed box.
Greg
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 24, 2018, 01:30:44 AM
The horn is for impedance matching and pattern control. It's not going to add extra output per se, though a tighter pattern means more output within the coverage area to some degree. There's a reason why top performing boxes use 1.4" - 2" exit horns with a 3" to 4" diaphragm behind them - output & lower frequency extension. 1" exit drivers are better now than they ever have been, but you can't get around the physics that a larger diaphragm with a larger motor and a larger exit is going to give you more output which equals more "throw." Now granted, arrayed 1" exit drivers such as those in some line arrays and some of the Danley boxes have a lot of output. But generally speaking, you can't get as much mid band power out them without breakup. 1" exits are better though for HF extension for sure, though the larger format drivers are also better now then they days of old when they started rolling off around 8k. My old Rat Sound boxes have an old JBL 2441 2" exit driver and those don't have a lot of top end sparkle. They're better with the aftermarket Radian diaphragms in them. But those boxes also have an additional 1" exit driver/horn to cover from 8k on up. With a newer high quality 2" driver, I could probably loose the 1" - but those good drivers are very expensive. And the boxes sound fine as is.
But for the sake of this discussion and dealing with 2-way and 3-way boxes, I'd tend to go with one that's got the larger format compression driver so I'm prepared for more situations. The SRXs have some shortcomings. But output isn't one of them for the price range. And they're one of the only offerings at that price point with the larger compression driver. Maybe the only offering for a fully powered and processed box.
Greg
"There is no replacement for displacement." - Carrol Shelby
Post by: Jay Barracato on September 24, 2018, 03:26:31 AM
"There is no replacement for displacement." - Carrol Shelby"predetermined biases can't account for improvements in technology"
Jay Barracato
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 24, 2018, 09:46:41 AM
"predetermined biases can't account for improvements in technology"
Jay Barracato
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
"Improvements in technology are not necessarily drop-in replacements." - Tim Mc 8)
Post by: Dave Pluke on September 24, 2018, 12:57:38 PM
"predetermined biases can't account for improvements in technology"
Jay Barracato
"Improvements in technology are not necessarily drop-in replacements." - Tim Mc 8)
"I came here for an argument". "No, you didn't" - Monty Python
Dave
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 24, 2018, 01:16:16 PM
"I came here for an argument". "No, you didn't" - Monty Python
Dave
LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 24, 2018, 03:18:48 PM
Post by: David Allred on September 24, 2018, 04:28:18 PM
I’ve just had a very long night testing session with the DZR12’s today and have found a couple of things that are putting me off them a bit.
1/ I’ve found the DZR12’s to have quite noticeable air turbulence coming from the ports when running bass through them. The on the DXR15’s this is not noticeable. I spent a long time finding the frequencies causing this and by the time I eliminated those the DZR12’s didn’t quite achieve the same depth of bass as the DXR15’s.
2/ I’ve found some harmonic distortion in the mids that we’re made quite obvious when playing quite harmonically complex chords. At first I thought this was the DZR’s revealing some extra detail but I double checked this through both my Beyer DT880pro headphones and Neumann KH120 / Eve TS108 monitoring setup in my studio. I’ve encountered something similar once before with a popular sub £1000 studio monitor which at first the company didn’t believe as no one had reported it. However after many conversations they sent one of their techs over and after showing them the harmonic distortion they hadn’t heard they now found it so obvious that they stopped make no that monitor!
I’m not saying that the DZR12’s have this issue but there is definitely some odd distortion happening in the mids. Could be a faulty DZR12!?
I do prefer the DZR12’s mid range clarity of vocals, acoustic guitar and piano etc but they don’t have quite the separation I was expecting for a speaker of this price. Also After playing around with the GEQ feeding the DXR’s I was able to improve the midrange noticeably (though still didn’t match the midrange of the DZR’s)!
Whilst I do love certain things about the DZR12’s, I’m not sure I can justify the £1200 price difference.
Were both your negative results found under the same scenario? (full range with heavy bass?) If so, that would not be a concern for me.
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 25, 2018, 12:27:55 PM
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 25, 2018, 12:34:53 PM
Were both your negative results found under the same scenario? (full range with heavy bass?) If so, that would not be a concern for me.
I agree because right now I only use my DSR112's with subs and I would do the same with DZR's.
I really want to hear from anyone who can compare DSR to DZR - If that shoot out resulted in a very noticeable win for DZR then that would be the thing to motivate DSR users to make the move to DZR.....
Post by: Scott Olewiler on September 25, 2018, 01:50:26 PM
I was hoping to do a comparo between the DSR and DZR, but I ended up selling all of them before I had time to do that.See what you've done! Now the rest of us are stuck not knowing what to do.
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Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 25, 2018, 01:54:04 PM
See what you've done! Now the rest of us are stuck not knowing what to do.
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Yes - I agree. BJ what were you thinking?.... We were all waiting with bated breath on your results....
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 25, 2018, 02:32:51 PM
The RCF 735/745 look like the only alternative at the moment but I really don’t like the look of them for higher end corporate gigs! If RCF made a full grill version I may be tempted.
Post by: David Morison on September 25, 2018, 03:14:26 PM
The RCF 735/745 look like the only alternative at the moment but I really don’t like the look of them for higher end corporate gigs! If RCF made a full grill version I may be tempted.
Totally agree about the looks of the ART series.
In terms of driver complement + processing, the closest equivalent with a professional appearance is the NX45A, but that's heavier (ply cabinet) and 40% more expensive, so perhaps challenging to afford, depending on your priorities.
Unfortunately I don't think* there's a 15" in the intermediate HD series, otherwise that'd be closer in weight and price to the ART.
FWIW,
David.
* Their website appears to be down right now, hence me not checking properly, sorry.
Post by: Richard Penrose on September 25, 2018, 03:36:31 PM
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on September 25, 2018, 07:29:08 PM
See what you've done! Now the rest of us are stuck not knowing what to do.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Sorry to let you all down...I know you were all counting on me....lol
Post by: David Allred on September 26, 2018, 10:36:27 AM
Sorry to let you all down...I know you were all counting on me....lol
A key part of repentance is restitution (making it right). So ship 2 of your DZR's to me and all is forgiven. ;)
Post by: John Ferreira on September 28, 2018, 10:18:30 PM
I’ve just had a very long night testing session with the DZR12’s today and have found a couple of things that are putting me off them a bit.
1/ I’ve found the DZR12’s to have quite noticeable air turbulence coming from the ports when running bass through them. The on the DXR15’s this is not noticeable. I spent a long time finding the frequencies causing this and by the time I eliminated those the DZR12’s didn’t quite achieve the same depth of bass as the DXR15’s.
2/ I’ve found some harmonic distortion in the mids that we’re made quite obvious when playing quite harmonically complex chords. At first I thought this was the DZR’s revealing some extra detail but I double checked this through both my Beyer DT880pro headphones and Neumann KH120 / Eve TS108 monitoring setup in my studio. I’ve encountered something similar once before with a popular sub £1000 studio monitor which at first the company didn’t believe as no one had reported it. However after many conversations they sent one of their techs over and after showing them the harmonic distortion they hadn’t heard they now found it so obvious that they stopped make no that monitor!
I’m not saying that the DZR12’s have this issue but there is definitely some odd distortion happening in the mids. Could be a faulty DZR12!?
I do prefer the DZR12’s mid range clarity of vocals, acoustic guitar and piano etc but they don’t have quite the separation I was expecting for a speaker of this price. Also After playing around with the GEQ feeding the DXR’s I was able to improve the midrange noticeably (though still didn’t match the midrange of the DZR’s)!
Whilst I do love certain things about the DZR12’s, I’m not sure I can justify the £1200 price difference.
Could you let us know which frequencies had distortion, and at what amplitude or volume?
How was distortion measured and how much?
Post by: Tom Roche on October 06, 2018, 12:45:10 AM
The rear has a fold-out roof that allows access to the rear panel while offering some protection against the elements. Also included are side Velcro flaps for the handles and a cable pocket just big enough for the power cord. The covers slip on over the top of the speaker and don't cover the bottom.
Given a choice, I'd rather have a cover like the ones designed for the DXR, which completely encases the speaker, provides more protection with superior padding, and a zippered cable pocket large enough for several cables.
Post by: Rick Powell on October 06, 2018, 01:08:15 AM
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 06, 2018, 10:19:28 AM
While browsing thru the new Sweetwater catalog that arrived in the mail, I noticed the DZR series was featured along with DXR and DBR. But no mention of the DSR series.
Interesting - but I'm not seeing anything to indicate they have been discontinued or discounted - yet.
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on October 06, 2018, 01:55:07 PM
Post by: Mike Pyle on October 06, 2018, 02:22:31 PM
Yes. DSR is 100% discontinued. Has been for a while...June maybe?
Not to my knowledge. I just put more in stock along with a DZR order in September.
Post by: Scott Bolt on October 06, 2018, 04:09:58 PM
I am still interested to hear from others that can do an A/B to the DSR's with the new DZR's ... pretty please?
If the DZR's are found to be better, I might consider selling my DSR's for a new pair of DZR's ;)
Post by: Gary Weller on October 06, 2018, 06:06:07 PM
Yes. DSR is 100% discontinued. Has been for a while...June maybe?
Still active on Yamaha'a website.
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/proaudio/speakers/dsr_series/index.html
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on October 06, 2018, 06:39:19 PM
The Yamaha covers for the DZRs are decent. Linky! (https://usa.yamaha.com/products/proaudio/speakers/dzr_dxs_xlf/option.html#product-tabs)
Yamaha discontinued the simple pullover for the DXR about 2 years ago, I was trying to buy a set around that time and could only get 1 so I ended up with the new covers which is just like those linked above.
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on October 06, 2018, 07:25:22 PM
Not to my knowledge. I just put more in stock along with a DZR order in September.Ok, let me rephrase to say DSR are no longer in production. Some warehouses may have existing stock. In Canada I can still get DSR215 but DSR112 are no longer in the order system.
Post by: Mike Pyle on October 07, 2018, 01:30:04 PM
Ok, let me rephrase to say DSR are no longer in production. Some warehouses may have existing stock. In Canada I can still get DSR215 but DSR112 are no longer in the order system.
Maybe that is a Canadian thing. They are apparently still in production and in the catalog at Yamaha 24/7 portal.
Post by: Scott Bolt on October 07, 2018, 02:18:21 PM
For every DSR112 I see, I see many many PRX, K, KW 12" top. For that matter, I see more DXR12's than DSR112's.
Considering this, I don't see how Yamaha can continue to offer both the DSR and DZR speakers. If the DZR's perform on par or above the DSR, I am not sure there is any reason for them to do so.
DBR12: $500
DXR12: $700
DSR112: $900
DZR12: $1300
It seems to me that 3 product price ranges is enough. Low, mid, and high (OK, there is another category ..... Pro touring above this).
I suppose it is all about sales. If the DSR continues to sell after the DZR has time to penetrate the market, then maybe they will keep it around.
Another good comparison would be the DZR vs the SRX812p. The RCF 745a is another good speaker, but at $1800 ea, it seems like it is more in competition with a higher tier of boxes.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 07, 2018, 06:29:20 PM
Of course ‘better’ is subjective.
Post by: Scott Bolt on October 07, 2018, 07:53:36 PM
When it comes down purely to sound, the DZR would have to be very noticeably better than the DSR AND the SRX to be worth the money IMHO. My reasoning being that the DSR112 is already very close to the SRX812P in terms of sound quality.I agree.
Of course ‘better’ is subjective.
Recently, EV stopped production of the ND767a which has been my favorite mic for a very long time. The new model ND86 that replaces it is reportedly not as nice from a couple of reviews I have heard to date from people who have had both.
My fear is that Yamaha will do the same thing with the DSR and that the DZR will not have the magic :(
Then I will be left hoping that my DSR's continue to run without issue and/or repair parts are still around for them into the future. I figure I will have a PA for another 10-15 years .... so if they can just hold on until then ;)
If the DZR's are as good or better than the DSR's, then should I have a failure in the future and parts are not around anymore, I would have no problem buying a new pair of DZR's.
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on October 08, 2018, 03:48:23 AM
I think someone needs to organise a PSW speaker day where we can try out these new speakers and others.
Chris
Post by: Scott Olewiler on October 08, 2018, 10:20:04 AM
When it comes down purely to sound, the DZR would have to be very noticeably better than the DSR AND the SRX to be worth the money IMHO. My reasoning being that the DSR112 is already very close to the SRX812P in terms of sound quality.I would really like to hear your opinion on the DZR as compared to the 812 if you ever get the chance to compare them. If the $900 list DSR sound close to the $1299 list SRX, I have to think the similarly priced DZR must be noticeably better.
Of course ‘better’ is subjective.
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Post by: kel mcguire on October 08, 2018, 01:01:43 PM
another thing I am wondering about:
Could two DZR10 cabinet horns be rotated, arrayed with a K&M double adaptor bracket and cranked up on my Dura truss stands each side? …like for an outdoor parks show.
Post by: John Simoson on October 08, 2018, 10:07:43 PM
Nobody has mentioned anything about those new subs that go along with the DZR tops. On paper, I could see the DZR10 and a pair of the DXS15xlf subs doing what I do with way bigger, heavier gear. People might ask me where is all my stuff…
another thing I am wondering about:
Could two DZR10 cabinet horns be rotated, arrayed with a K&M double adaptor bracket and cranked up on my Dura truss stands each side? …like for an outdoor parks show.
I’ve been licking my chops at the 10s paired with the 15 subs. Waiting to hear more user feedback here first.
Post by: Tom Nisbet on October 09, 2018, 06:33:09 PM
Post by: Rob Bernstein on October 18, 2018, 11:31:36 PM
They sounded pretty good by themselves, but I'd want a shoot-out to decide if the 12's are that much better than my DSR112's.
They do have a side-handle, which is a nice addition.
But cloth grilles? No thanks.
Post by: Greg Harwood on October 19, 2018, 09:28:41 AM
I was able to get a jump start on my new system and started with these Subs. Hopefully have a pair of 18’s next week. Curious to see how they will sound with my k12.2’s but I plan on going with DZR tops once I save a little more cash.
Did you get your 18" subs yet?
Post by: Mike Santarelli on October 19, 2018, 10:17:25 AM
Sat through a DZR demo today at AES Show.
They sounded pretty good by themselves, but I'd want a shoot-out to decide if the 12's are that much better than my DSR112's.
They do have a side-handle, which is a nice addition.
But cloth grilles? No thanks.
I also did this as well. I thought they 10, 12, and 15 were all good. In a two way form the 15 stood out the most but they are large. I have to say to say I was little underwhelmed by them.
Now the 315 on the other hand was amazing. So much clarity and punch. I’d like to grab a pair and replace my srx835. If the specs are as advertised, this will well outperform the 835. From what I heard, I’d think it will no problem.
The bad news is I also sat through the nexo demo. Now I want those.
Post by: Nate Zifra on October 19, 2018, 10:24:41 AM
I also did this as well. I thought they 10, 12, and 15 were all good. In a two way form the 15 stood out the most but they are large. I have to say to say I was little underwhelmed by them.
Now the 315 on the other hand was amazing. So much clarity and punch. I’d like to grab a pair and replace my srx835. If the specs are as advertised, this will well outperform the 835. From what I heard, I’d think it will no problem.
The bad news is I also sat through the nexo demo. Now I want those.
Also sat through the demo at AES. I agree with Mike S above, the 315 could very well have the SRX835's beat in terms of clarity and spl.
Post by: Luke Geis on October 19, 2018, 06:46:21 PM
Post by: Peter Kowalczyk on January 05, 2019, 08:53:01 PM
In the image attached, blue is No D-Contour, Green is D-Contour in FOH mode, and Orange is D-Contour in Monitor Mode.
I didn't get a chance to A/B with my DSR112s, but I'm generally impressed with the LF extension and clarity. Oh, and I have to say, the covers are pretty trick... they open up to function as a rain cover. Cool!
Post by: Eric Snodgrass on January 06, 2019, 02:05:31 PM
I figured I'd snap a few measurements comparing the different 'D-Contour' settings.Peter, when you measured the cabinet in Monitor Mode did you have the cabinet on the ground configured as a wedge?
and Orange is D-Contour in Monitor Mode.
Post by: Kevin Conlon on January 07, 2019, 12:51:02 PM
I received a couple DZR12s yesterday (thanks Mike!) and had a little bit of time to play with them in my living room before passing them to their new owner. I figured I'd snap a few measurements comparing the different 'D-Contour' settings. The 'FOH' mode was un-surprising - a bit of dynamic bass boost. What was very interesting to me was the 'Monitor' setting. In addition to a much higher High Pass, monitor mode has about 1.5ms less latency than FOH mode.As someone who was going to buy a pair of DSR112 in march, would i be better off with the DZR? I do not really need the extras it has but would like the minor increase in spl.
In the image attached, blue is No D-Contour, Green is D-Contour in FOH mode, and Orange is D-Contour in Monitor Mode.
I didn't get a chance to A/B with my DSR112s, but I'm generally impressed with the LF extension and clarity. Oh, and I have to say, the covers are pretty trick... they open up to function as a rain cover. Cool!
Post by: Rob Spence on January 07, 2019, 01:04:28 PM
As someone who was going to buy a pair of DSR112 in march, would i be better off with the DZR? I do not really need the extras it has but would like the minor increase in spl.
If the usable SPL isn’t more than 3dB, you and your customers will not notice. If that little bit matters to you, then you have too small a rig for what you need.
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Post by: Kevin Conlon on January 07, 2019, 01:25:06 PM
If the usable SPL isn’t more than 3dB, you and your customers will not notice. If that little bit matters to you, then you have too small a rig for what you need.I get the 3db. I want these for an annual show because of the sound quality, spl not that high. Trying to NOT justify the extra cash.
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Post by: Chris Grimshaw on January 08, 2019, 03:29:14 AM
I get the 3db. I want these for an annual show because of the sound quality, spl not that high. Trying to NOT justify the extra cash.
If you've got subs and would always use them, I'd go with the DSRs. If there's a reasonable number of gigs where a pair of speakers on sticks would do the job, the DZRs dig deeper.
Chris
Post by: kel mcguire on January 08, 2019, 12:55:49 PM
Post by: Kevin Conlon on January 08, 2019, 09:49:00 PM
If you've got subs and would always use them, I'd go with the DSRs. If there's a reasonable number of gigs where a pair of speakers on sticks would do the job, the DZRs dig deeper.Thanks. Kind of my line of thinking. There would be subs, maybe not for talking heads, but always for rock. Most of what i do is rock, as we used to know it, and i need the vocal clarity that all say this 112 has.
Chris
Post by: Kevin Conlon on January 08, 2019, 09:55:18 PM
3 dB per cabinet is pretty significant in a lot of instances, especially for transients. Perhaps a more reasonable quantification might be that; if you're always hitting clip limiters on your DSR 112 then the DZR12 probably won't be the headroom you've needed. On SPL alone, it comes down to about $200 for 3 dB each speaker.As i do not have DSR at the moment i do not know how loud they can get. The claimed output seems plenty to me. The extra spl seems to cost more than i need. Thanks.
Post by: Corey Scogin on January 08, 2019, 10:12:20 PM
3 dB per cabinet is pretty significant...
The frequency response specs probably give a relatively accurate comparison of the low end but I'd question the max SPL spec. That single number is more often than not misleading. I don't think it's been shown (or subjectively claimed) by a user that the DZR gets 3dB louder than the DSR or, if it does, sounds good doing it. I think we're all still waiting on a DSR/DZR comparison.
Post by: kel mcguire on January 09, 2019, 01:28:48 PM
The frequency response specs probably give a relatively accurate comparison of the low end but I'd question the max SPL spec. That single number is more often than not misleading. I don't think it's been shown (or subjectively claimed) by a user that the DZR gets 3dB louder than the DSR or, if it does, sounds good doing it. I think we're all still waiting on a DSR/DZR comparison.
agreed. But I just figure on all the specs being similarly misleading, from DSR to DZR, therefore it's not really the actual numbers I'm trusting but more the differences.
Post by: Peter Kowalczyk on January 09, 2019, 02:21:37 PM
Peter, when you measured the cabinet in Monitor Mode did you have the cabinet on the ground configured as a wedge?
Hey Eric - these measurements were all snapped with the speaker on a stand, so the there's no half-space loading to compensate for the monitor mode's LF rolloff.
Post by: Kevin Conlon on January 09, 2019, 07:41:18 PM
The frequency response specs probably give a relatively accurate comparison of the low end but I'd question the max SPL spec. That single number is more often than not misleading. I don't think it's been shown (or subjectively claimed) by a user that the DZR gets 3dB louder than the DSR or, if it does, sounds good doing it. I think we're all still waiting on a DSR/DZR comparison.
Hey Corey, yeh current spec marketing tools do suck, have forever i think. Have to do the legwork ourselves. This post has been around a while and still no a/b. I don't get it nor do i have the means to do it myself. I'd like to have sm80's but out of range this year. So we wait, for me only another 6 weeks. Thanks.
Post by: George Reiswig on June 14, 2019, 01:06:24 PM
Hey Eric - these measurements were all snapped with the speaker on a stand, so the there's no half-space loading to compensate for the monitor mode's LF rolloff.
Resurrecting this thread. I'm still wondering if the DZR12's are substantially better than my DSR112's in output and LF extension. Also, if the addition of fan cooling eliminates the thermal shutdown issue I ran into last summer at an outdoor gig. Any more real-world comparisons?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 14, 2019, 05:05:34 PM
Resurrecting this thread. I'm still wondering if the DZR12's are substantially better than my DSR112's in output and LF extension. Also, if the addition of fan cooling eliminates the thermal shutdown issue I ran into last summer at an outdoor gig. Any more real-world comparisons?
The DSR's go as loud as I would think you could possibly need for the coverage of a single 12" box. As far as going lower, I didn't measure but they are anemic on the low end. One look at the design and that is to be expected.
The fan works great, I don't expect any issues. We ran them outside for 10 hours on an 85 degree day with the rain covers on no issues.
What I can tell you is they are more open and easier to mix on than the DSR's. They don't need as much EQ to squeeze everything in. It's hard to quantify but everyone that has taken them out comes back with the same comments.
Post by: George Reiswig on June 14, 2019, 05:23:18 PM
Post by: Scott Olewiler on June 15, 2019, 07:20:36 AM
The DSR's go as loud as I would think you could possibly need for the coverage of a single 12" box. As far as going lower, I didn't measure but they are anemic on the low end. One look at the design and that is to be expected.
The fan works great, I don't expect any issues. We ran them outside for 10 hours on an 85 degree day with the rain covers on no issues.
What I can tell you is they are more open and easier to mix on than the DSR's. They don't need as much EQ to squeeze everything in. It's hard to quantify but everyone that has taken them out comes back with the same comments.
Can you elaborate on loudness DZR as compared to DSR? Do you feel there any noticeable additional headroom?
I do maybe 2-3 events a year where I run DSRs over Yorkville USC1Ps and I am tickling the limit lights on the DSRs and even a few extra dbs od headroom would make me feel better. I am not in a situation where I really want to add (or lift, for that matter) anything other than another pair of powered 12s to my inventory, since I don't have any real use for anything larger and lots of opportunity to rent out more 12s..
Post by: Scott Bolt on June 15, 2019, 04:36:06 PM
The DSR's go as loud as I would think you could possibly need for the coverage of a single 12" box. As far as going lower, I didn't measure but they are anemic on the low end. One look at the design and that is to be expected.
The fan works great, I don't expect any issues. We ran them outside for 10 hours on an 85 degree day with the rain covers on no issues.
What I can tell you is they are more open and easier to mix on than the DSR's. They don't need as much EQ to squeeze everything in. It's hard to quantify but everyone that has taken them out comes back with the same comments.
Can you clarify if you mean the DSR or DZR or both "anemic" on the low end. I agree the DSR's are anemic on the low end. They work great for tops over subs, but won't do much below 60Hz with any authority IME. Fine for solo/duo work, but not so fine for SOS deployment for a DJ or band without subs IMO. Fortunately the cross-over in the PRX subs is 90 :) That leaves them with plenty of punch for everything else.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 16, 2019, 07:22:38 AM
Can you clarify if you mean the DSR or DZR or both "anemic" on the low end. I agree the DSR's are anemic on the low end. They work great for tops over subs, but won't do much below 60Hz with any authority IME. Fine for solo/duo work, but not so fine for SOS deployment for a DJ or band without subs IMO. Fortunately the cross-over in the PRX subs is 90 :) That leaves them with plenty of punch for everything else.
The DZR's don't seem to have any low end extension over the DSR's.
As far as the extra few db of output, I have not run them that hard so can't comment on that. My general SOP is to grab a bigger rig rather than try and squeeze those last few db's out. Not having enough rig dramatically increases workload. I realize this is not an option for everyone.
Post by: George Reiswig on June 16, 2019, 09:56:48 AM
The DZR's don't seem to have any low end extension over the DSR's.
As far as the extra few db of output, I have not run them that hard so can't comment on that. My general SOP is to grab a bigger rig rather than try and squeeze those last few db's out. Not having enough rig dramatically increases workload. I realize this is not an option for everyone.
That’s disappointing to hear. I’d read elsewhere that the DZR12 seemed to keep up with the bass on the DXR15. I was hoping for the clarity and power of the DSR112 but to be able to deploy for smaller gigs without subs.
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on June 16, 2019, 11:53:50 AM
Can you clarify if you mean the DSR or DZR or both "anemic" on the low end. I agree the DSR's are anemic on the low end. They work great for tops over subs, but won't do much below 60Hz with any authority IME. Fine for solo/duo work, but not so fine for SOS deployment for a DJ or band without subs IMO. Fortunately the cross-over in the PRX subs is 90 :) That leaves them with plenty of punch for everything else.Go with a 15” then. I can’t name too many 12’ MI grade boxes that can do anything resembling adequate low end without subs.
Don’t think I’d do a full band without subs regardless, unless it was an extremely small/quiet gig.
As far as DZR vs DSR....I was a long time user of DSR112’s . Using some DZR’s since last fall I’d say they do sound slightly better than DSR’s and have some advantage in the low end. They sound more flat. The DSR’s seemed to have that upper midrange boost [and around 8k too) that really helped vocals cut though a mix. With no EQ applied, I’d say the DZR sounds slightly more natural. My subjective observations as I sold all my DSR’s before I had a chance to really A/B them against the new boxes.
If you have a pile of DSR I don’t think you’d see much advantage changing to DZR, unless you suffer from the same affliction I have of obsessively turning your gear over every year or so.
Post by: Rob Spence on June 16, 2019, 12:35:18 PM
Can you elaborate on loudness DZR as compared to DSR? Do you feel there any noticeable additional headroom?
I do maybe 2-3 events a year where I run DSRs over Yorkville USC1Ps and I am tickling the limit lights on the DSRs and even a few extra dbs od headroom would make me feel better. I am not in a situation where I really want to add (or lift, for that matter) anything other than another pair of powered 12s to my inventory, since I don't have any real use for anything larger and lots of opportunity to rent out more 12s..
If you are hitting the limit lights then you do not have “Enough Rig for the Gig”.
A couple of dB will not help. You need 3dB to even notice and 6-10dB to make a difference.
Post by: David Allred on June 16, 2019, 12:57:13 PM
If you are hitting the limit lights then ........ Except to keep you out of limit. There is some value in that.
A couple of dB will not help.
Post by: Rob Spence on June 16, 2019, 01:32:05 PM
.... Except to keep you out of limit. There is some value in that.
I don’t expect that to work. Waste of money to do a mostly lateral change.
My experience is that the reason you hit limits is because you want it louder. Get a couple of dB headroom and you will use it right up and lights are back on.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 16, 2019, 01:37:20 PM
I don’t expect that to work. Waste of money to do a mostly lateral change.
My experience is that the reason you hit limits is because you want it louder. Get a couple of dB headroom and you will use it right up and lights are back on.
^^^ THIS ^^^ RIGHT ^^^ HERE ^^^
Post by: Luke Geis on June 16, 2019, 02:52:47 PM
I would say that if tickling the limit light is an issue, you would have better luck getting more level by some clever compression and limiting ( essentially what the speaker is doing for you anyway ). You have to really consider what you're already producing as it is. Not knowing how you mix, if you use little or no compression, making the limit lights blink on any given speaker will be a rather common occurrence. Live music has a crest factor that lies between -20 and -15db generally. This means that the average SPL is -15 to -20db lower than the peak level. If your speaker is only capable of 130db ( hypothetically ) that means that you are only acquiring an output of around 110db at best before the speaker goes into limiting. Conversely, if you compress the media a bit and get the crest factor up to around a -15 to -10db, you will have an SPL level that is 115 - 120db before the limiter kicks in. Now you would be cooking with gas as I would not want to be 10' away from a speaker that is pumping 120db in my face.
It is my firm belief that any speaker capable of about 135db peak should be more than loud enough for most any gig you put it on, baring obvious shortcomings and distances. I feel that the real world output that a 135db speaker is capable of actually producing is closer to 120db before you factor in distance losses and a large part of the crest factor of the media. This reduction in output gives us -6db for speaker safety ( essentially running the speaker at its continuous wattage rating as opposed to its peak ) and I factor in a minimum of -10db for crest factor. Most all commercial media has a crest factor of -5db or so and spoken word with mild compression can have a crest factor of -10db. So you can expect the speaker at the very least to produce around 120db with a +6db safety margin.
Next is the consideration that the inverse square law isn't 100% true until you start getting to distances beyond about 10' away from the speakers face. The inverse square law assumes an infinitely small source of audio in comparison to the produced signal. As the size of the source of audio increases, its relationship to the inverse square law shifts with it. Most common point source boxes will only lose about -3db of SPL level up to around 10-12' away from the speakers face. Most all measurements are done factoring 1 meter away ( or 3.28' ). After about 10-12' away from the speaker, the output will fall as the inverse square law prescribes. All this means is that at around 50-60' away from the speaker, you should have about +6db more output than you thought you should. At 50' there are 4 generation losses for the inverse square law or essentially -24db of loss. If you are getting 100db of output at 50', it means that the people up front only a few feet away from the speaker are getting pounded by at least 120db of volume!!!!
I don't believe for one second that Yamaha is getting that kind of output from the DZR line. There is some sort of numbers magic they are pulling. Keep in mind that in order to have that level of output given the available wattage would mean the speaker has a sensitivity of 106db!!!!! BS..... I am sure that the DZR is a really nice speaker and is perhaps capable of a little more output than the DSR, but certainly not even close to a real 139db of output. Time will tell though.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 16, 2019, 05:44:32 PM
I also agree. If you are lighting the limit lights up currently, even if the actual and true output difference of another speaker is +3db, you will still see the limit lights with the new speaker. You need at a minimum, +6db, in order to gain any perceived and truly quantifiable output gain. An increase of +3db has and never will have been enough to make or break a show. No engineer ever has said, " if I only had +3db more ".......ever. Now, +6db is enough for there to be an evident and unarguable increase in level. This is the smallest amount of extra needed gain in order to go from not enough to perhaps enough. I say perhaps enough because if your needs are still beyond what +6db can provide, then it still won't be enough.
I would say that if tickling the limit light is an issue, you would have better luck getting more level by some clever compression and limiting ( essentially what the speaker is doing for you anyway ). You have to really consider what you're already producing as it is. Not knowing how you mix, if you use little or no compression, making the limit lights blink on any given speaker will be a rather common occurrence. Live music has a crest factor that lies between -20 and -15db generally. This means that the average SPL is -15 to -20db lower than the peak level. If your speaker is only capable of 130db ( hypothetically ) that means that you are only acquiring an output of around 110db at best before the speaker goes into limiting. Conversely, if you compress the media a bit and get the crest factor up to around a -15 to -10db, you will have an SPL level that is 115 - 120db before the limiter kicks in. Now you would be cooking with gas as I would not want to be 10' away from a speaker that is pumping 120db in my face.
It is my firm belief that any speaker capable of about 135db peak should be more than loud enough for most any gig you put it on, baring obvious shortcomings and distances. I feel that the real world output that a 135db speaker is capable of actually producing is closer to 120db before you factor in distance losses and a large part of the crest factor of the media. This reduction in output gives us -6db for speaker safety ( essentially running the speaker at its continuous wattage rating as opposed to its peak ) and I factor in a minimum of -10db for crest factor. Most all commercial media has a crest factor of -5db or so and spoken word with mild compression can have a crest factor of -10db. So you can expect the speaker at the very least to produce around 120db with a +6db safety margin.
Next is the consideration that the inverse square law isn't 100% true until you start getting to distances beyond about 10' away from the speakers face. The inverse square law assumes an infinitely small source of audio in comparison to the produced signal. As the size of the source of audio increases, its relationship to the inverse square law shifts with it. Most common point source boxes will only lose about -3db of SPL level up to around 10-12' away from the speakers face. Most all measurements are done factoring 1 meter away ( or 3.28' ). After about 10-12' away from the speaker, the output will fall as the inverse square law prescribes. All this means is that at around 50-60' away from the speaker, you should have about +6db more output than you thought you should. At 50' there are 4 generation losses for the inverse square law or essentially -24db of loss. If you are getting 100db of output at 50', it means that the people up front only a few feet away from the speaker are getting pounded by at least 120db of volume!!!!
I don't believe for one second that Yamaha is getting that kind of output from the DZR line. There is some sort of numbers magic they are pulling. Keep in mind that in order to have that level of output given the available wattage would mean the speaker has a sensitivity of 106db!!!!! BS..... I am sure that the DZR is a really nice speaker and is perhaps capable of a little more output than the DSR, but certainly not even close to a real 139db of output. Time will tell though.
Luke, you care correct. They don't make 139dB of SPL in any meaningful way. I think you are about right 118-120 from 100hz to 20Khz in most of the published pattern.
It takes four dual 10" line array cabinets to get 139db according to Ease and I can tell you that the DZR of course can't keep up with that rig.
It is an improvement, but not one that increases the capabilities of the speaker. It's still a 12" 2 way box. Probably top of the heap in the sub 2k $$$ market.
Post by: Scott Olewiler on June 17, 2019, 09:02:40 AM
A couple of dB will not help. You need 3dB to even notice and 6-10dB to make a difference.
Obviously, neither speaker puts out usable SPL anywhere close to the the spec'd max SPL numbers. But the published difference is that the DZR is +5 db louder than the DSR. If they're measured the same way that would have to be noticeable difference wouldn't it?
My interest is not in making a lateral move just to gain a couple of db , but that I have a genuine business need for another pair of DSRs and am thinking that adding a pair of DZRs to my inventory instead might serve me better for 2-3 gigs a year which are actually for one of the two bands I play in, not for a client. There is no money for renting anything louder so band will live within the limitations of whatever I bring. Current DSR rig provides enough volume, although pushing the limits. The rest of the time they'd be going out on the same type of jobs that my DSRs can easily handle.
If a client came to me for a job that was going to be pushing ANY pair of powered 12s to their limits I'd be referring them to a larger company, because it makes no business sense for me to invest in a bigger rig.
This may be moot point anyway as another buying option that gets me more output and make $ense has presented itself.
Post by: David Allred on June 18, 2019, 10:43:38 AM
I don’t expect that to work. Waste of money to do a mostly lateral change.
My experience is that the reason you hit limits is because you want it louder. Get a couple of dB headroom and you will use it right up and lights are back on.
You validated my point. "Mostly lateral" is anther way of saying "Some value". No limiting vs limiting for the same volume is added value. I was not implying to spend $$ to get that added value. Only that it exists. Po-tay-toe, Po-tah-toe.
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on September 02, 2019, 01:52:12 AM
Finally home from a busy week.A year later and I just got home from doing this same gig again.
Today I was supplying for a small festival at an estate. Since they were only about expecting about 200 folks, I thought this may be a nice way to try out my new DZR12’s.
At first I was going to just use them without subs, but decided to unload a single TH118 just to be safe.
All I can say is: Anyone want to buy some gently used DSR112’s? I’ve got 8 for sale.
They sound fantastic and they get loud.
I used one over a TH118 on one side and another solo on a stand on the other side of the stage. I ran the DZR’s with the selectable 60hz hpf as I had the sub set up on an aux. I wanted to see if I could actually use these without subs. Probably not. At least not if you want any low end impact.
But they sound great. Vocals were easy to get above the mix and I used very little channel eq. Also, the onboard dsp was handy. The single speaker was set forward about 12 feet so I was able to use the built in delay to match it up to the other side. Handy.
Bands ranged from folky to classic to pop rock, outdoors with about 300 people at any given time. They got a good workout but I definitely wasn’t going full bore on them.
One other quick thing. The weight is the same as DSR, but the handle placement makes it seem lighter, especially getting it on and off a stand.
The burning question still remains: is it louder and lower than the DSR? Sorry, I wasn’t able to do a direct comparo, but I do feel they have a more even or natural sound than the DSR. They do go audibly lower, just not sure they are louder, but I have no reason to believe they wouldn’t be.
Cheers,
BJ
This time i used a pair of long backordered DZR10 that finally arrived. I used a pair of the little DXS12II subs with them. These DZR10 sound fantastic. I’ll be getting another pair next week.
This years crowd was around 350 over a fairly large distance. Space was about 60’ wide at the stage and about 120’ wide at 100’ back. Smart little system.
Post by: Chad Croker on September 04, 2019, 08:23:56 AM
A year later and I just got home from doing this same gig again.
This time i used a pair of long backordered DZR10 that finally arrived. I used a pair of the little DXS12II subs with them. These DZR10 sound fantastic. I’ll be getting another pair next week.
This years crowd was around 350 over a fairly large distance. Space was about 60’ wide at the stage and about 120’ wide at 100’ back. Smart little system.
Great to hear some more real world reviews of the DZR range. That sounds like it would be a very neat and powerful little system. How did you find the sound and performance of the DZR 10 compared to the DZR 12?
Post by: Heath Eldridge on September 08, 2019, 04:49:24 AM
From memory the Yamaha claims to get 139db, the RCF claims 131db. Is the Yamaha really significantly louder in real world, useful live music use? 8db should be a lot.
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on September 08, 2019, 05:14:08 AM
I’m really curious as to how the DZR12 compares to the RCF HD32a, which I had planned for my next speaker purchase.
From memory the Yamaha claims to get 139db, the RCF claims 131db. Is the Yamaha really significantly louder in real world, useful live music use? 8db should be a lot.
Don't bother with the numbers. They might as well have measured the impact SPL of dropping the speakers from 30,000 feet.
Some reading if you're interested: https://www.prosoundweb.com/channels/live-sound/spec-wars-looking-inside-loudspeaker-spl-specifications/
My money would be on the RCF.
Chris
Post by: Scott Bolt on September 08, 2019, 11:30:22 AM
Don't bother with the numbers. They might as well have measured the impact SPL of dropping the speakers from 30,000 feet.
Some reading if you're interested: https://www.prosoundweb.com/channels/live-sound/spec-wars-looking-inside-loudspeaker-spl-specifications/
My money would be on the RCF.
Chris
Hey Chris,
I would normally completely agree with you; however, what has me wondering is this....
The DSR112 was rated @ 134db and proved to be a louder more clean speaker (arguably) than any speaker in its class despite all those speakers having nearly identical SPL ratings.
The DXR12 is rated slightly lower at 132db. I can confirm that a DSR112 will audibly get louder than a DXR112 (note the new DXR MKII is rated at 134 .... not sure how these stand up though).
The DZR line is positioned above the DSR line and is rated at 139db. I would expect (based on previous yamaha speaker specs and actual output as heard directly by those of us hearing them directly), that the DZR would get noticeably louder than even the DSR112.
Now .... does that mean that it can actually obtain 139db measured by us using an industry standard SPL meter at 1 meter? Likely not IMO.
It likely does mean that the DZR will outperform a DSR and DXR by a noticeably amount.
Now, going back to the original question .... will a DZR12 outperform an RCF HD32a? I don't know. I haven't heard the RCF before and certainly haven't been able to A/B them to a DSR, DXR, or DZR.
I think the more appropriate question would be how they sound. The RCF speakers have been known for their smooth horn output (Yamaha not as much so). The DZR is considered a more balanced speaker my all that have used them though. It might be more of a matter of taste perhaps. I think they are both at the top of the food chain in this part of the market.