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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => DJ Forum => Topic started by: Joshua Buentello on December 21, 2018, 10:55:21 AM
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Hello Im looking into some speakers to start DJ'ing and I'm particularly interested in the brand EAW. I own a EAW MX250, MX800i, MX8600 processor, 4 EAW LA325 cabinets along with 4 EAW BH760's and they sound incredible. But I was told that the LA325 are a short throw speaker and the coverage and distance isn't all that great for a large event. A friend of mine mentioned that the KF760 series would be a better choice for tops to compliment my lows and would give me a larger distance of coverage and throw. I looked at pricing for the KF760's and almost had a heart attack lol! plus the KF760's were massive and looked to weigh in at almost the same as my lows. I was looking around and found these models of KF series: KF850/850EF/850T/850z can anyone tell me what is the difference between these models? because theres not much info out there explaining the differences and if so which would go good with my lows, Thanks.
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The KF760 is a line array module and is not meant to be used singly or in small numbers (too few to be a "line" is a "dash" ;) )
The differences between the models of KF850? Mostly transducers (different drivers) and some changes to the mid horn (IIRC). They are not interchangeable, i.e. you can't use KF850T mixed with KF850z (Z is the final version of the 850).
We have a dozen KF850EF and they don't go out much. Big, heavy, requires the EAW UX8800 processor (we still use the MX series) to preform at their best. I think you'd be better served with KF650 - smaller and lighter than an 850 but still louder than the LA series you have now.
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If you're getting into a mobile DJ setup, I'd recommend looking into their self-powered Radius lineup. Way fewer moving parts and much easier to setup and strike.
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If you're getting into a mobile DJ setup, I'd recommend looking into their self-powered Radius lineup. Way fewer moving parts and much easier to setup and strike.
+1 We own both the Radius and the KF850ef speakers. If I was a dj and I am not, I would definitely look into the Radius system. If you are looking at a line-array the RSX802L is an amazing value for the price.
Bill
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There is no such thing as " throw " in terms of a speaker. The LA325's are a 90* X 70* box and that spec ONLY applies to the highs and part of the mids. This spec is par for the course with just about 90% of all speakers in the open market.
Now the LA325 is about the heaviest box known to man and is a widow maker to move and set up. So it is beneficial to find a replacement only to save your life. Aside from that, the box is fine ( I hate the things and they sound mediocre at best to me, but honestly they perform well for most ). I think any other $700 plus 12" speaker will spank those things and make them cry like a baby. If you want low end, buy a sub and you will still have more room and more thump than a pair of those beasts can produce.
The LA325's are just not great performers when scaled against modern self-powered offerings of roughly the same cost. You could sell those and get a much better speaker without spending a dollar almost!!!!
Forget about all the hype, your basic Yamaha DSR, JBL SRX, EV ETX, QSC K12.2, and similar units are truly the bee's knee's these days and will do the job very well. The older ( now discontinued ) beast of yesteryear are just not viable anymore. They sound ok at best but require so much work and heavy lifting to get there.
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Now the LA325 is about the heaviest box known to man and is a widow maker to move and set up. So it is beneficial to find a replacement only to save your life. Aside from that, the box is fine ( I hate the things and they sound mediocre at best to me, but honestly they perform well for most ). I think any other $700 plus 12" speaker will spank those things and make them cry like a baby. If you want low end, buy a sub and you will still have more room and more thump than a pair of those beasts can produce.
Just to make sure, I looked up the EAW LA325. 2x 15"s, 2x 7"s, 2x 2" HF on some kind of compression driver combiner thingy.
Seems to me like those ought to eat any 1x12" plastic box, especially if you went to bi-amped operation on the big cabinets - More cone area, more efficiency, more power handling.
At 77kg, I can see why you'd say they're heavy. Not impossible to move around, but a 2-man job to lift on top of some subs for sure.
FWIW, there was recently a shoot-out between some old Nexo Alpha and some of Nexo's newer offerings at a venue I used to work at. They're still running the Alpha - apparently the beasts of yesteryear still have some grunt.
Chris
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The LA325 isn't really a powerhouse at a 133db max SPL, the only driver in it worth anything is the CD and even in Bi-amp mode, there is really no improvement in performance. It's not that they're a bad box, but you really can get about the same mileage out of modern 12" boxes. The specs state =/-3db down to 50hz and up to 20khz. Most all 12" models these days are going down around 50hz. JBL SRX states 48hz-20khz for its +/-3db, QSC K12.2 = 50hz-20khz +/-6db, and EV ETX 12P = 55hz-20khz. All these options get just as loud and get basically just as low, require NO external processing and are self-powered.
The LA325 is perhaps more efficient, but it's a 3-way box, so it better be. Its only rated for 600 watts in full range mode and in Bi-amp its 600 watts for the hi/mids and 1000 watts for the lows, so it doesn't handle more wattage than any other speaker. It's basically a 133db peak box with a few db more room in the low end if Bi-amped. If you take the JBL SRX 835, it gets 137db max SPL and goes from 41hz-20khz +/-3db and it's only a single 15" 3-way box and it weighs 85lbs.
Tick for tack in performance, all these boxes are the same. The LA325 will have a little more low-end oomph due to having 2 X 15" drivers, but if linear is the game??? The heaviest 12" in this bunch weighs all of 60lbs. The LA325 weighs in at a whopping 170lbs!!!!!
I had some Alpha Nexo's in a venue I managed for a while. They are a nice speaker, HEAVY AS BALLS, but sound good and can rip your head off. I wouldn't put them in the same category as the LA325 or single 12" offerings. The Alpha series was only just recently discontinued really and is still supported by NEXO. Great box if properly installed and set up.
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It's not that they're a bad box, but you really can get about the same mileage out of modern 12" boxes.
Luke,
Perhaps you missed my article on this very subject: https://www.prosoundweb.com/channels/live-sound/spec-wars-looking-inside-loudspeaker-spl-specifications/
The EAW specs are, I suspect, pretty honest. The SPL ratings on most modern speakers are closer to fairytales.
The way to find out for sure would be to do a side-by-side comparison. I'd bet money on the EAWs in a bi-amped configuration cheerfully annihilating all but the very top-end 12" speakers.
Chris
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I understand all that, believe me, and I have read it. And I am very much aware that the specs stated by most Vendors are unrealistic. I used to work with the LA325's in two different venues and another pair for a live sound company. I have some good experience with the LA series as I have also owned a set of LA212's and another venue I managed had a set of LA215's for monitors. There is nothing about the LA series that made me want them and even the 325's didn't really give me the warm and fuzzies. I don't recall the LA325's giving me any more usable SPL than any of my current inventory either. I never measured, but I have used some recently and they are just average sounding. Not great, not bad, just good or at least good enough. They certainly weren't any louder within reason either.
All the BS numbers aside, the modern pack of powered and passive units perform rather well. My only real point being, that going with a modern 12" and complimentary sub will shave a TON of weight, will be easier to set up ( no need for risers ) and not be a two-person job.
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I understand all that, believe me, and I have read it. And I am very much aware that the specs stated by most Vendors are unrealistic. I used to work with the LA325's in two different venues and another pair for a live sound company. I have some good experience with the LA series as I have also owned a set of LA212's and another venue I managed had a set of LA215's for monitors. There is nothing about the LA series that made me want them and even the 325's didn't really give me the warm and fuzzies. I don't recall the LA325's giving me any more usable SPL than any of my current inventory either. I never measured, but I have used some recently and they are just average sounding. Not great, not bad, just good or at least good enough. They certainly weren't any louder within reason either.
All the BS numbers aside, the modern pack of powered and passive units perform rather well. My only real point being, that going with a modern 12" and complimentary sub will shave a TON of weight, will be easier to set up ( no need for risers ) and not be a two-person job.
I figured the OP wanted to stay in the EAW family and purchase used gear. The KF650 won't go as low as an LA325 (in singles, anyway) but it will have better pattern control. The 650ef weighs 140 lbs (64kg), has +3 or so greater peak output, long term is about the same as the 165 lb LA325.
I agree that the "easy button" is for Joshua to re-home the LA325s and replace with SRX835sp. Real world long term output is about the same as either EAW with half the weight. Since he has 4 BH760 I don't think weight is an issue for him.
Haven't heard the Radius so can't comment except the RSX126/129 look interesting with their 12" LF section and size/weight.
Joshua, what is a "large event"?
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The LA325 is a beautiful sounding box (one of my favorites from over the years), but it doesn't get very loud BUT if it gets loud enough for you, in the venues you work at...then I say keep it. It'll sound better than the 850ef for SURE. The 650Z on an 8800 processor is the next step up in the EAW line for 90% of people. You should notice a marked improvement going to those boxes (probably 2 per side). It's not gonna be cheap though.
If you're open to venturing outside the EAW range, try Community SLS960 / SLS980 boxes. They're old, but sounded great last I remember.
Josh Billings
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The LA325 is a beautiful sounding box (one of my favorites from over the years), but it doesn't get very loud BUT if it gets loud enough for you, in the venues you work at...then I say keep it. It'll sound better than the 850ef for SURE....
Josh Billings
I'm not here to muddy the waters, but i have to humbly disagree. ish...
Basically, the LA325 and the KF850* are such wildly different beasts that they can't really be compared. The LA is a "near-field" box and as such can sound quite good "closeup". The KF850s don't even come together until you're about 50' feet away from them. They also take a LOT more power, and get a LOT louder IME. Just two different things.
I do think the 650s are worth looking at. I always found them easier to manhandle than the the 325s mostly because they have real handles and such. And they can certainly be made to sound quite good with the right processing and power.
I'm with Luke in that i'm just not that big a 325 fan. They LOOK like they should be a lot more impressive than they actually are. And they FEEL heavier than they actually are....
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Haven't heard the Radius so can't comment except the RSX126/129 look interesting with their 12" LF section and size/weight.
Joshua, what is a "large event"?
I know someone who has the RSX129s and they swear these are some great boxes for multiple types of events. I have been trying to “borrow” a system to try out myself as I’m still looking at possibly moving my older SRX 725/728 rig.
I used to own LA215s and whatever the single 18” sub was that accompanied them. I also used the LA325s a bunch of times. They were good boxes at the time but equipment has come such a long way in the last 15-20 years. The LA series sounded decent but there are better options out there now with more power handling, more efficient and half the weight.
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I figured the OP wanted to stay in the EAW family and purchase used gear. The KF650 won't go as low as an LA325 (in singles, anyway) but it will have better pattern control. The 650ef weighs 140 lbs (64kg), has +3 or so greater peak output, long term is about the same as the 165 lb LA325.
I agree that the "easy button" is for Joshua to re-home the LA325s and replace with SRX835sp. Real world long term output is about the same as either EAW with half the weight. Since he has 4 BH760 I don't think weight is an issue for him.
Haven't heard the Radius so can't comment except the RSX126/129 look interesting with their 12" LF section and size/weight.
Joshua, what is a "large event"?
Hello and Thanks for the info, a large event for me would be around 300-600+ people but sometimes the venues customers rent out are large ballrooms or barn like buildings at times, I was also think of renting out my equipment for music festivals at events held by the city at a city park and I was just wondering if what I have would be enough for those kind of places. because most of the equipment that I see at festivals like that are usually JBL SR4733X series tops and With
cerwinvegas or B52's for lows.
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Hello and Thanks for the info, a large event for me would be around 300-600+ people but sometimes the venues customers rent out are large ballrooms or barn like buildings at times, I was also think of renting out my equipment for music festivals at events held by the city at a city park and I was just wondering if what I have would be enough for those kind of places. because most of the equipment that I see at festivals like that are usually JBL SR4733X series tops and With
cerwinvegas or B52's for lows.
That's similar to a events that I (used to) get called for. I've been happy for years with my EAW KF300e rig. They still sound great with the MX300 processor, but they are heavy at 100+ lbs per box. I think you can get a pair in an ATA for around $500, currently
That being said, I did always like the LA325 for DJ gigs in the 90's, but man those are heavy.
As Tim Mc mentioned the KF850 are the biggest, heaviest boxes in a lineup of big, heavy boxes. The 850T had TAD drivers inside. You will cry if you ever see the cost to replace a damaged unit.
Also, your MX250 and MX800 processors are not reprogrammable or adjustable and EAW application support will not help you reconfigure the units or even send out schematics. They are factory setup to a specific model of speaker and required factory refitting to work with other gear.
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The most similar thing I have noticed that, most of the DJs use Yamaha, Mackie and Behringer speakers. I think these are the best brands that you should need to look at.
Martha, I'm not sure if your post is meant to be taken seriously or if you're just trying to funnel internet traffic to your blog, but articles such as the one you're linking to won't find any love here. Have you actually heard/used/owned any of the products you're endorsing? Power-boosting technology - really? Mackie THUMP Series? The only thumping those do is when they hit the bottom of the dumpster.
I don't mean to sound blunt, but spamming is not welcome here nor is making wild claims about equipment you have no knowledge on.
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The most important thing, I'll recommend you to consider before buying the best cheap DJ speakers (https://speakershunter.com/best-dj-speakers/) "If you are able to hear the things you’ve never heard before in your sound tracks then this is the speaker where you need to invest.
That site you linked to reads more like a badly written joke than anywhere near a serious review. Are you affiliated with it?
Frequently Asked Questions:
1. How many watts should DJ speakers be?
The ideal number of watts that needs to be present in the best DJ speaker is around 1500 to 2000 watts. In some cases, like in an indoor location, where normally the sound effects tend to be different, the range might get a bit different.
2. What kind of speakers do DJs use?
Most of the DJs out there prefer to use the monitor speaker for DJ’ing. Although there are several benefits from the Bluetooth type and others, this specific type of speaker tends to be more compatible with their situation.
3. How many speakers do DJs need?
Normally, the DJs need at least a set of speakers that can be used simultaneously. The two speakers let them keep a check on the sound quality, bass, and overall performance of the tracks.
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Tip: Don't go for junk speakers if you want them for long run, otherwise you'll result in losing your money.
...Mackie and Behringer speakers. I think these are the best brands that you should need to look at.
Enough said.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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As a DJ and a musician, the most important element you must take into consideration is sound.
Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.
You have been warned twice so far, the next one will involve removal.
Mac
admin
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. . . I was also think of renting out my equipment for music festivals at events held by the city at a city park and I was just wondering if what I have would be enough for those kind of places.
Joshua: A word of warning! If you rent your equipment out, and you are not there with it, expect losses and damage!!!! If there is a way to hook it up wrong, it will be!!!! (Speakon connecters plugged in backwards, EP connectors with broken release tabs, re-patched power amps) (A good argument for self powered products) If it can be over powered and pushed past its limits, it will be!!!! (Another good argument for self-powered speakers)
I do rent small systems and have six of the first generation QSC K12's and some KW 181's in rental stock. I had eight K12s - two were stolen and the renter has never been arrested as best I can tell. The QSC's have been pretty bullet proof except customers DROP the subs and break the magnets loose. I've replaced about half a dozen over the last 8 years. When people don't own the gear that don't give a damn about taking care of it!
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+1 on all Don's comments, getting into the rental business opens another can of worm, I don't play in the festival market but others here can tell you about how there is so much more involved than just FOH speakers, as with most things customers will gravitate towards a supplier that can deliver 1-stop shopping(sound, lighting, backline, staging, baracades, etc) even if some or all of those pieces aren't the latest or greatest.
I have built a pretty successful rental business for myself by marketing to DJs that don't want to move and setup equipment anymore, and in the process of doing that I stumbled into another client pool with event organizers and decorators who also needed a sound and lighting subcontractor. The key to separating myself from many other operators in this market is that I deliver, setup, and collect all the equipment and when necessary supply on-site operators for the duration of the event, this ensures the equipment stays in near showroom condition in both appearance and function which it turns out is a big deal with these customers.
The vast majority of my business is with modern powered speakers which cover events up into the 250-300 range, I also have a larger passive racks n stacks rig but it only comes out a few times a year and would be overkill and a giant PITA to get into the smaller venues, I simply would not be doing this if I had to move 150lb boxes for every event. When I started out I didn't have the passive rig at all and would cross rent in suitable gear for larger events, this worked well and gave me time to piece together a larger rig that has proven to be reliable and impressive enough to a sub section of my customer base that they keep asking for it.
The bottom line is you need to go into this with a plan, your business will need some diversity to build and maintain a revenue stream and festivals probably won't be it, the bread and butter will likely be with smaller events or certain customers where you provide something that wasn't available before.
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Wow, can you tell me which product model I have recommended?
...most of the DJs use Yamaha, Mackie and Behringer speakers. I think these are the best brands that you should need to look at...
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The most important thing, I'll recommend you to consider before buying the (meaningless Top 10 article link that I won't bother reposting)...
I'm still not sure if any of this is to be taken seriously but it's up to Mac or Doug to ring up Strike 3.
Otherwise, yes, you're posting on PROsoundweb - we're well aware of the brands available in our industry and which ones tend to perform better than others. The overwhelming majority of information in your article is marketing hype mixed with baseless claims which most of us here know better than to entertain. The rest of it simply makes no sense. Most of us here are actually very friendly and happy to teach, but we're also highly allergic to fake information being passed off as fact.
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Wow, can you tell me which product model I have recommended? I earlier told that I have met with a lot of DJs as I am a Party Planner. I usually ask them about the speakers, amps they use. I shared the brands which were in my mind. For your kind information, I am not affiliated with anyone. Just found the review on Pinterest and shared over here.
But thats not the attitude you guys need. I've not recommended anything, I just shared out what I know about. Good luck!
Posting a clickbait article full of gibberish isn't really all that helpful. The stuff on that list is near bottom of the barrel crap. The purpose of that article is purely to get people to click on the amazon links so that the host gets a commission on any sales. The content of the article is horrible.
If you actually learned ANYTHING from the article, please immediately erase what you learned from your brain. It's useless drivel which appears to be (hopefully) poorly translated at best.
When you're new to a forum, it's probably best to come to learn and ask questions before trying to give advice in an area with very little knowledge.
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So guys you are aware of the brands not the newbies over here. You maybe expert over here but most of the people came here for recommendations (mostly new). If someone is expert enough, he doesn't look for recommendations.
Thanks for your kind information.
Hi Martha-
The PSW forums have a fairly "USA-centric" focus and, to a lesser extent, Canada and the UK. The circumstances in your undisclosed locale may present conditions we have no awareness of.
I'm more curious as to why a party planner gets involved with or recommends equipment used by the DJs, unless you've had "party failure" due to a DJ using equipment that proved embarrassing to you or your client. Is there more to this endorsing?
The most common issue with portable DJs is their propensity to turn things up until every red lights stay on. They are oblivious to the horrid, distorted sound being produced by almost every device in the signal chain and when this is pointed out by professional audio people they are typically dismissed as either elitists or know-nothings. In this situation the brand of loudspeakers being misused is mostly irrelevant anyway...
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Hi Martha-
The PSW forums have a fairly "USA-centric" focus and, to a lesser extent, Canada and the UK. The circumstances in your undisclosed locale may present conditions we have no awareness of.
Her blog seems to be based in California.
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Her blog seems to be based in California.
It's a whole 'nuther country (or 3)!
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+1 on all Don's comments, getting into the rental business opens another can of worm, I don't play in the festival market but others here can tell you about how there is so much more involved than just FOH speakers, as with most things customers will gravitate towards a supplier that can deliver 1-stop shopping(sound, lighting, backline, staging, baracades, etc) even if some or all of those pieces aren't the latest or greatest.
I have built a pretty successful rental business for myself by marketing to DJs that don't want to move and setup equipment anymore, and in the process of doing that I stumbled into another client pool with event organizers and decorators who also needed a sound and lighting subcontractor. The key to separating myself from many other operators in this market is that I deliver, setup, and collect all the equipment and when necessary supply on-site operators for the duration of the event, this ensures the equipment stays in near showroom condition in both appearance and function which it turns out is a big deal with these customers.
The vast majority of my business is with modern powered speakers which cover events up into the 250-300 range, I also have a larger passive racks n stacks rig but it only comes out a few times a year and would be overkill and a giant PITA to get into the smaller venues, I simply would not be doing this if I had to move 150lb boxes for every event. When I started out I didn't have the passive rig at all and would cross rent in suitable gear for larger events, this worked well and gave me time to piece together a larger rig that has proven to be reliable and impressive enough to a sub section of my customer base that they keep asking for it.
The bottom line is you need to go into this with a plan, your business will need some diversity to build and maintain a revenue stream and festivals probably won't be it, the bread and butter will likely be with smaller events or certain customers where you provide something that wasn't available before.
nice reply Paul...very similar to my world.
I actually started in pro backline almost 2 decades ago..but quickly found that along with the pro/national stage work, that I would get calls for semi-pro events that needed decent backline (drums, keys, amps) and also were very happy that I could bundle it with Audio/lighting.
that business continued to build well, and 2 years back I sold my pro backline rental to a larger company..but I kept the "private events' portion of my biz..so while i no longer have a warehouse full of ALL the desired keyboards, drum brands etc.. I do still have several nice keys, a quality pro drum kit, bass amp, guitar amps, etc and enough PA to stage a solid 8 pc band (24x8) consoles with enough FOH to handle small town square festival sound (not concert level) but mostly wedding bands type thing.
I've had less success just handing gear to a client and letting them take it themselves, or even doing a full setup for a weekend church thing and walking away...the phone will ring at some point
I never have let a person who says they are a DJ, rent gear from me.. I laugh when I get the call "hi, I'm a DJ and my sub is blown and in the shop, I need to rent a sub from you"...seriously. I've gotten those calls...Dude - you really think I'm gonna hand you one of my subs so you can blow it up too?
old first issue mackie USA/ Italian have given me great service.. JBL eons early models, QSC and EV stuff...all still hanging in there for me.
I don't get into attitude about it..these are consumer grade rigs..not pro concert rigs..they are what they are..they work, the client is happy .. I get paid.