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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Nathan Riddle on December 22, 2017, 11:01:53 AM
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I don't have a dog in the fight, but I'm curious as to where this guy's coming from?
-How do the larger acts get & change the FOH console?
-How do tours choose their main FOH console?
-Do rental houses really get told which boards to buy?
-Does a new console really 'sweep house' and all the big acts switch?
Springing off of this dLive thread: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,155022.0.html
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Audio-Jason Vero Please everyone stay away from Allen and Heath they are the worst I am not sure what integrator started that horrible thing and basically ripping people off but so many churches have them and they’re awful if you are looking for a good product I would choose Yamaha or if you’re looking for a Madi Infrastructure then digico
Nathan Riddle What on Earth are you talking about? A&H is in the same league as digico and SSL
Audio-Jason Vero I would have to disagree we fix at least 9 to 1 Allen and Heath console and find none of them are rider friendly if you have a larger band or events coming into your worship center you’ll never see and Alan and heath on an award show any kind of music television or super large scale music tour unless it’s with the opening band. I know for a fact the ones you do see that have gone out with larger artist like snoop dog had one for a little while they always switch back after they try it to a Yamaha , digico or SSL.
Audio-Jason Vero Nathan Riddle could you please give me 10 touring artists that do shows to an audience of more than 5k on a regular basis? And I don’t believe you can as there are not even that many listed on Allen and Heath’s website as artist that use their console. I do consulting work and FOH for at least eight companies that own more than 60 digital consoles and not one owns an Allen and Heath I could see a small regional company that owns one or two consoles owning them or a church that got talked into buying one but no larger reputable company that owns a lot of consoles that does large shows owns them
Jeremy Van Valkenburg I think as the dLive gets more and more out there you will see it more on tour. I have heard in Europe it’s on probably 35% of riders. It sounds great, is easy to use, and is very affordable. 35k for a decked out dLive or 50k for a Yamaha.
Audio-Jason Vero Unfortunately the ones in Europe are a lot of smaller production bands and those guys will use anything
Audio-Jason Vero Also you get what you pay for. Of course it is cheaper
Audio-Jason Vero Lastly, a quote from NAB session“ the new dlive has some great features for the novice engineer but nothing screams pro audio. We will be really surprised to see any large pa companies or engineers pushing this desk. We believe it will find its place in the House of Worship and small theatre world.”
Nathan Riddle Your argument that in a saturated market where a newish board would automatically take over while companies are still paying off the initial investment from rentals of just as capable consoles is quite poor.
You may breath different air than the rest of us but your opinion holds less merit than you think.
Audio-Jason Vero We all breathe the same air however I am not sure of your experience in the industry from the Perspective of a Foh engineer for larger bands I have the decision of what console i want to use and my collegues choose what console they want and they dictate To the rental houses in the rental houses by based on demand I have demoed the Dlive And I just do not find that the sound and functionality it’s even close to other brands such as Yamaha SSL and digico. I feel the reliability is lower as well. You can call it a saturated market all you want however there’s a reason when new console comes out if they are good enough they replace others. Amongst all the larger companies who do this every day the dlive is not replacing any of their consoles
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-How do the larger acts get & change the FOH console?
-How do tours choose their main FOH console?
-Do rental houses really get told which boards to buy?
-Does a new console really 'sweep house' and all the big acts switch?
- Artists generally do not choose a console, engineers do. They get consoles from rental companies. They change by rehearsing, or not!
- Engineers choose what console they use, in collaboration with the production manager, with management approval (cost). Sometimes the production is already set up, and the engineer must use what has already been selected by a previous engineer.
- If an engineer/tour goes to a production company and says they want X console, then the production company likely needs X console if they want to keep this client. If they don't have it and won't buy it, they will 'dry hire' the console from someone that does have it. Like any marketplace, the market "tells" production companies what they need.
- In any market, new takes time. There is a lot of stick-with-what-you-know, for both appropriate reasons and human-nature-fear-of-change reasons.
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Right on, thanks.
Now the next question from this exchange.
Is the "A&H is crap" notion.
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The "list 10x bands" using the dLive.
Do tours/large events determine if a brand is "crap" or not?
Does A&H having low reliability for the big leaguers?
Is A&H not rider friendly?
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You seem to keep finding the dLive haters out there! I'd be very curious to hear his rationale for saying that the dLive has a lower reliability than other consoles. If anything, not having to pass audio/data to the surface to still get sound would only help to increase the reliability! Anyways, reading between the lines of the conversations we've both participated in recently regarding the product and knowing that we're both interested in the product (though I know you just bought an SQ-6), I can definitely see merit in doing all the research you can on these and their role in larger applications.
I too have been reading forums with the "Why shouldn't I buy a dLive" mentality, price aside. I can't speak at all to the larger sound world, but I've been through similar arguments in lighting world. You can imagine the strange looks I get when walking into a concert with an ETC desk! Most "pro" level users are carrying a grandMA or Hog variant (or realistically, rent it). So why ETC? I just like the desk better for my style of programming and operating. Sure, people hate them and think ETC has no place outside of theater, but 99% of these people have never actually touched one or used one outside of a demo room. I like the workflow and interface of my ETC desk, which is much of what draws me to the dLive. I'm not sure how your company compares to mine (though I think we're similar), but since I don't have any strict riders to worry about meeting I'd much rather invest in what I want to use versus what the industry says I need to use. Just my 2 cents and I know it's not a real answer to your question, but if my experience with lighting is anything like how sound works you'll find haters of every product. Good luck!
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Right on, thanks.
Now the next question from this exchange.
Is the "A&H is crap" notion.
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The "list 10x bands" using the dLive.
Do tours/large events determine if a brand is "crap" or not?
Does A&H having low reliability for the big leaguers?
Is A&H not rider friendly?
Most large events get the console the A1 specifies. He (she) choses it based on more than name. Is it suitable, is it available, am I familiar with it, can I readily get a back up? Digico has gotten firmly entrenched with the tour crowd because it ticks those boxes. Since almost any large format console will tick most of those boxes it may come down to familiarity and availability. As a newcomer at this level of production the A&H DLive will take some time to get enough people familiar with it, and to get enough inventory is the shops to support touring. Those two are a tough road since lack of familiarity means no demand for shops to increase inventory, and lack of inventory means no consoles to get familiar with.
Given time good products usually develop a user base large enough for vendors to have motivation for spending money on inventory.
Mac
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Most large events get the console the A1 specifies. He (she) choses it based on more than name. Is it suitable, is it available, am I familiar with it, can I readily get a back up? Digico has gotten firmly entrenched with the tour crowd because it ticks those boxes. Since almost any large format console will tick most of those boxes it may come down to familiarity and availability. As a newcomer at this level of production the A&H DLive will take some time to get enough people familiar with it, and to get enough inventory is the shops to support touring. Those two are a tough road since lack of familiarity means no demand for shops to increase inventory, and lack of inventory means no consoles to get familiar with.
Given time good products usually develop a user base large enough for vendors to have motivation for spending money on inventory.
Mac
Thanks for the explanation.
The process of market expansion & takeover (unsure as to its correctness) was what I was alluding to when I replied to Audio-dude.
Seemed to me that Audio-dude thinks that if the dLive console is good enough it would take over the tour market post haste, in-turn reinforcing that A&H is a good company and their entire range of products are acceptable.
In addition the whole 'sound' quality bias, and 'ease of use' bias, and 'reliability issues' bias; create a difficult environment for market penetration.
Jeff,
Thanks for the perspective pertaining to myself.
To clarify, I would love dLive but can't afford it; so SQ is a verrryy awesome alternative for my live-sound purposes.
I still like to know what's going on out there so I can be a good consultant and integrator for the clients I serve. Like it or not the Church Sound Media Tech group on FB has lots of users and "experts" of various products and when one strongly feels a certain way I enjoy questioning them on their experiences, especially when I have a firm grasp on the subject.
Personally all the higher end manufactures (senn, shure, yammy, A&H, etc) have treated me well as far as reliability and service (because eventually something WILL happen).
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I don't have a dog in the fight, but I'm curious as to where this guy's coming from?
-How do the larger acts get & change the FOH console?
-How do tours choose their main FOH console?
-Do rental houses really get told which boards to buy?
-Does a new console really 'sweep house' and all the big acts switch?
Springing off of this dLive thread: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,155022.0.html
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This guy seems to conflate the needs of A-level touring with the marketability of the DLive (and apparently anything else that says A&H on it). The number of desks in a rider situation and/or for organizations with 5K or more people represents a very small part of the market compared to the zillions of churches and clubs where the dollars matter.
A&H seems to have a bit of the Peavey problem - because they made desks that were reliable and affordable (analog GL series), they were ubiquitous in clubs that couldn't afford anything else, and many were untouched for decades, accumulating some issues over that time, as any product would. This guy may indeed work in an area where A&H had a lot of market share and due to a higher number of units in service, a higher number of units needing repair than other brands. Or he's a brand snob and is making it up.
There's enough positive buzz about the DLive that along with its lower price than other options (CL, various Digico) are already making it a market success, with or without this guy's approval.
I wonder if this guy knows that Digico and A&H are sister brands?
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I wonder if this guy knows that Digico and A&H are sister brands?
I doubt that given I stated that in my first reply. (not in so many words obviously)
This guy seems to conflate the needs of A-level touring with the marketability of the DLive (and apparently anything else that says A&H on it). The number of desks in a rider situation and/or for organizations with 5K or more people represents a very small part of the market compared to the zillions of churches and clubs where the dollars matter.
A&H seems to have a bit of the Peavey problem - because they made desks that were reliable and affordable (analog GL series), they were ubiquitous in clubs that couldn't afford anything else, and many were untouched for decades, accumulating some issues over that time, as any product would. This guy may indeed work in an area where A&H had a lot of market share and due to a higher number of units in service, a higher number of units needing repair than other brands. Or he's a brand snob and is making it up.
There's enough positive buzz about the DLive that along with its lower price than other options (CL, various Digico) are already making it a market success, with or without this guy's approval.
I think you hit this nail on the head, because originally the post mentioned a GL series board (post was about a road case desk, not the board; it was merely mentioned). And he immediately took to telling everyone A&H was terrible.
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There's enough positive buzz about the DLive that along with its lower price than other options (CL, various Digico) are already making it a market success, with or without this guy's approval.
I wonder if this guy knows that Digico and A&H are sister brands?
And now add SSL as a sister brand! That may not mean anything, but an interesting development.
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Jeff,
Thanks for the perspective pertaining to myself.
To clarify, I would love dLive but can't afford it; so SQ is a verrryy awesome alternative for my live-sound purposes.
I still like to know what's going on out there so I can be a good consultant and integrator for the clients I serve. Like it or not the Church Sound Media Tech group on FB has lots of users and "experts" of various products and when one strongly feels a certain way I enjoy questioning them on their experiences, especially when I have a firm grasp on the subject.
Personally all the higher end manufactures (senn, shure, yammy, A&H, etc) have treated me well as far as reliability and service (because eventually something WILL happen).
No worries Nathan, and that all makes sense. Just given how often the two of us mention dLive lately I wasn’t sure if you’re on the fence with ownership or not, and looking for more rationale as to why or why not make the investment. I’m trending towards “yes”, but that’s still sight unseen and could completely change after actually laying hands on one! Have fun with your new SQ-6!
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Most large events get the console the A1 specifies. He (she) choses it based on more than name. Is it suitable, is it available, am I familiar with it, can I readily get a back up? Digico has gotten firmly entrenched with the tour crowd because it ticks those boxes. Since almost any large format console will tick most of those boxes it may come down to familiarity and availability. As a newcomer at this level of production the A&H DLive will take some time to get enough people familiar with it, and to get enough inventory is the shops to support touring. Those two are a tough road since lack of familiarity means no demand for shops to increase inventory, and lack of inventory means no consoles to get familiar with.
Given time good products usually develop a user base large enough for vendors to have motivation for spending money on inventory.
Mac
Mac used the word 'familiar' several times in this post, and i think it is a key concept to understand. It's great that such and such a console has a bunch of new bells and whistles and sounds amazing and is super affordable, but since i'm not paying for it and i don't need fancy bells and whistles, i will opt for the devil i know EVERY TIME.
Case in point. Last week i did a show at a studio in NYC using a LAWO MC256. It's a lovely console and the integrated Waves rig i had to work with was pretty much limitless. But... The show was a frantic scramble with very little rehearsal time. I had about 8 different musical acts and in most cases less than 5 minutes each to dial in a workable broadcast mix. The first actual complete show runthrough was when we did the show. So one of those shows. In this environment, i'd rather have had a CL5 or even a QL5, not because they are superior desks but because i am more familiar with them and can work much more quickly.
Now if i have several weeks of rehearsals with no pressure to learn a new workflow i might feel very differently. That LAWO certainly had some interesting features. But those types of situations are exceedingly rare. At least in my world...
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There's enough positive buzz about the DLive that along with its lower price than other options (CL, various Digico) are already making it a market success, with or without this guy's approval.
I wonder if this guy knows that DiGiCo and A&H are sister brands?
Seems that you posted in the thread on CSMT on FB as I got a notification, though It seems that that conversation thread was deleted by someone as I can't see it anymore :( I was enjoying the conversation and was going to respond to him at some point about my credentials.
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Seems that you posted in the thread on CSMT on FB as I got a notification, though It seems that that conversation thread was deleted by someone as I can't see it anymore :( I was enjoying the conversation and was going to respond to him at some point about my credentials.
The guy FB Messengered me his credentials and appears to be 'in the biz'. I don't know him and don't want to disparage someone I don't know; all I will say is my experience with A&H gear and his do not coincide.
It's probably best that part of the discussion got deleted - it was WAY off topic from the original question.
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QUOTE - "Audio-Jason Vero Lastly, a quote from NAB session“ the new dlive has some great features for the novice engineer but nothing screams pro audio. We will be really surprised to see any large pa companies or engineers pushing this desk. We believe it will find its place in the House of Worship and small theatre world.”
WOW! Well I do not know who this guy is, but he is definitely quoting from not a very large pool of information.
Firstly it is my understanding that Calir Bros. has purchased quite a few D-Lives. SO, I guess he does not consider Clair Global a large rental company. JPJ in Aust. even has one at this stage. JPJ is 50% owned by Clair Global so that may not count as much...anyway.
I spec the board that I use for FOH for the acts I tour with and I will spend from JAN. to end of April touring with two acts on a festival circuit for audiences of 7-10k with a large scale L'Acoustics K2 rig. I choose D-live, but I guess I am a novice so maybe that does not count. (read with sarcasm)
I agree that the D-live is not a "current" rider friendly board, but that is slowly changing and it seems that troglodytes that need to see the right badge are the only stalwarts refusing to acknowledge just how powerful and sonically great the D-live is. I mean, I still take out Digico, Avid and even Yamaha for particular shows that require certain parameters or I cannot justify changing, but D-Live can easily substitute most all of those shows.
I have two versions of the D-live now, an S series for larger events and a C-1500 to fly with me on tours where I am not picking up a board at each show. I do not miss my Avid board at all even though it was rider friendly.
So, sorry to disagree with you Jason Vero, but I say it does scream pro audio for those that do not need their ego stroked by a brand badge. ; )
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In nine years in this current job, I haven't seen a single rider that I can remember that asked for an Allen&Heath console at FOH or monitors. It's usually Avid, Digico, Yamaha, Midas, or Soundcraft. And We have not had any tours bring their own Allen&Heath console.
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At the risk of repetition...
Console selections are made by the FOH Mixerperson IF a console is being carried on tour. Exceptions are stepping into a tour already in progress; if the artist's production manager has an over-ruling vote; if a substitution must be made for whatever reasons.
I've heard back-to-back BEs talk smack about (or highly praise) consoles they are not using and when I ask why, the answers almost invariably come back to *perceived* differences in audition, followed by workflow and then feature set. I can fully understand feature set and workflow - if you don't have the former you can't do your work, and if a desk is unfamiliar (see Brian M's post) you're working against it until you get familiar... but after all these decades I still maintain that *within the market price brackets* most consoles sound very similar when operated between the white lines... extreme operation (high or low) is where the genuine differences are revealed and, if you have to do that often, becomes a decision factor.
As for Allen-Heath. Man, I wish I knew which crappy mixer from long ago still haunts them as I've seen "NO Allen-Heath" on riders for at least 20 years (along with Peavey, Mackie, Hill and a couple others). I think TJ could be right about A-H acquiring the Peavey Syndrome - affordable, flexible, nice features for the price - allowing those of otherwise dubious experience or cred to try and do shows beyond their competence; i.e. someone got burned really bad, more than once, by providers with A-H mixers and the console became a symbol of "just no."
Also agree that there is some conflation of acceptance by touring BEs as being necessary for consideration for other uses or as validation of the product itself. I'm not sure why that might be important because if it were, Midas would not have needed rescue by Music Group or SSL by angel investor Peter Gabriel. The real money, even with relatively thin margins, is in engineered installation systems. I'd bet dbx makes more profit from ZonePro than they made from the DR4800... And there is a great market for "good enough". Look at the Yamaha M7 - aimed at houses of worship, small theaters and nightclubs. Not a *great* console but that didn't stop it from making money for Yammy and having an impact on the market at the time.
The best mixer is the one at FOH that is fully functional, has the features I need to mix my artist and is sufficiently familiar to me that I can control it quickly and masterfully. Brand? Less important.
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It's always difficult for a lower end brand to pull itself up to a point where it is compteting at the top tier.
If Soundtracks hadn't changed it's name to Digico I think we might be having a similar discussion about their brand image.
Yes..it is ironic how they are now sister companies.
The A&H may find it's comfortable nice in the church market which in no way demeans it's image.
Can you name another console that can make 8 iPad mixes with no work surface ?
And if you intend to climb into a broadcast truck to do a music show you'd better jump on the LAWO bus.
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The best mixer is the one at FOH that is fully functional, has the features I need to mix my artist and is sufficiently familiar to me that I can control it quickly and masterfully. Brand? Less important.
^^^Testify^^^
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The best mixer is the one at FOH that is fully functional, has the features I need to mix my artist and is sufficiently familiar to me that I can control it quickly and masterfully. Brand? Less important.
First of all, don't get me wrong with these comments. I'm a dLive owner and user. I LOVE the board. The sound is terrific. The workflow is superb.
Now to the quotes...
Perhaps that's why Behringer has sold so many X32's? I can't tell you how many festivals I've seen/done where an X32 was actually specified. You can't say that the X32 is the same quality as all of the others mentioned. But they sure have sold a bunch and they sure are on a bunch of riders. Why? Because it's readily available, the BE has a show file for it already and they can make it work. But then there's the badge. How many engineers wouldn't even consider mixing on one because of the brand? A bunch.
Can you name another console that can make 8 iPad mixes with no work surface ?
Yes. I can name a some. Behringer X32 Cores and Racks, Allen & Heath GLD's and iLives, and the Presonus RM mixers. I'm sure there are more. I just haven't used them with an iPad and don't know how many concurrent iPads you can run on them. And they're not the same quality as the dLive. But I can make them work if that's what's required.
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This is a timely thread for me. I carry consoles on tour. The budget, input list, and means of travel dictate which console that is. In general, it has been Avid, as my main artist purchased an S3L when it first came out. It has also been Midas H3000, Digico SD10, Profile, etc.
In 2018 I'll be doing 3 EU tours each lasting 4-5 weeks and 1 US tour of the same length. After system teching a show over the summer I decided I wanted to move away from the S3L. The two acts had SD12 and SC48 at FOH. The difference in sound quality was significant. I want that sound.
I also own a regional sound company. Our inventory includes an SC48, but mostly Yamaha CL and QL consoles. I think we've moved to a place where if a tour isn't carrying, they aren't very picky as long as everything works and is well laid out. There are exceptions, but it means renting something in once or twice a year.
For the sound company, I don't think an SD12 is a smart investment. At the level we work, we are finding that more and more tours are carrying consoles, and ours go out less and less. We haven't worked into the tour control package rental market (yet), so the SD12 would have a rental rate too high for most of our market. I could take it on tour, but once the artist retires in 2019, we're back to square one. Also, I think an SD12 might be more console than the 17 channel tour requires, even though we're playing large theaters.
So this has led me to a Dlive. I haven't crunched all the numbers yet, but it looks like an S3000 and DM48 will be close to half the price of an SD12. That makes it far more attractive for both the tour and the rental inventory.
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The best mixer is the one at FOH that is fully functional, has the features I need to mix my artist and is sufficiently familiar to me that I can control it quickly and masterfully. Brand? Less important.
Part of the FB thread and my PM conversation with the person in question included (IMO) unsubstantiated reports to the effect of "every A&H console I have encountered has problems and my company has removed 500 broken A&H consoles from venues and replaced them with something else".
Maybe that's true, but my experience includes failures from every brand of console I've ever used: I have shoved a problematic Heritage 2000 out of the way in favor of a far less flashy but working M7, I have replaced MANY faders on the above M7 as well as another one, I have had blown preamps on Yamaha 01v original and 01v96, had blown output channels on Soundcraft Sprit (didn't like backfed phantom power), RF rectification from Mackie and Roland gear, a cold solder joint from the factory on a Mixwizard, and power supply issues in my GLD.
Second hand stories (gigs I have been on but was not driving the console) include Dante problems on Yamaha CL5s, boot up problems with a Digico SD10, Innovason Grand Master rack failure, etc.
They all break; more popular (number of units sold, not necessarily more desirable models) consoles have a higher absolute quantity of failures, but not necessarily a higher unit failure rate.
The great news is that in 2017 there are solid choices from more than one vendor in every price category, so if you are allergic to A&H, Behringer, or whoever else, you can make music with something else.
Personally, I enjoy my GLDs very much and would take a DLive if given one, but since I flirt with being overweight in 26,000lb GVW trucks on many shows, every 100lbs I allocate to infrastructure - that is anything the audience can't see or hear - takes away from lighting, video, etc. That makes the allure of a higher-class desk hard to justify for me.
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And if you intend to climb into a broadcast truck to do a music show you'd better jump on the LAWO bus.
Unless it's an All Mobile Video truck, in which case you need to get on the Studer bus. Of course there's likely to be a separate music mix truck, and Music Mix Mobile (M3) is now LAWO.
Mac
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I used to have a quote from at least a century ago about lathe operators. The gist of it was that they tended to be fiercely loyal to the brand of lathe that they used, and dismissive (if not hostile) towards any other brands.
Nothing new to see here, move along.
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Unless it's an All Mobile Video truck, in which case you need to get on the Studer bus. Of course there's likely to be a separate music mix truck, and Music Mix Mobile (M3) is now LAWO.
Mac
Lawo's built in Dolby Atmos engine is amazing. The console can encode the metadata live. The interface is gorgeous too (from a software guy).
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Part of the FB thread and my PM conversation with the person in question included (IMO) unsubstantiated reports to the effect of "every A&H console I have encountered has problems and my company has removed 500 broken A&H consoles from venues and replaced them with something else".
I might scrape off the hyperbole and agree that his firm has replaced broken A&H mixers that were 20 years old, that came from installations where they were never looked at again (nice rooms to dive bars) or were bounced around in the back of old trucks for years. Hell, I've replaced Yamahas and Soundcrafts for the same reasons...
The rest strikes me as either pandering gear snobbery or simple "feminine hygiene appliance" mentality.
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^^^Testify^^^ That's actual real world talkin. Down in the damp and slippery trenches where this s--t git dun boyz.
The best mixer is one that someone else paid for and then pays me to run.
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
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The best mixer is the one at FOH that is fully functional, has the features I need to mix my artist and is sufficiently familiar to me that I can control it quickly and masterfully. Brand? Less important.
Now this is the real world talking...very well put.
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The best mixer is one that someone else paid for and then pays me to run.
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
I'm the opposite, I make a lot more money paying someone to operate my mixer(s) than mixing myself. In that respect Allen & Heath have always been a great investment, its often the non-rider stuff where the $$$ are :)
FWIW if Audiotonix had put a Digco badge on the dLive and double the price all the naysayers would be in awe :D
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FWIW if Audiotonix had put a Digco badge on the dLive and double the price all the naysayers would be in awe :D
An SD Live, perhaps?
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It's always difficult for a lower end brand to pull itself up to a point where it is compteting at the top tier.
If Soundtracks hadn't changed it's name to Digico I think we might be having a similar discussion about their brand image.
Yes..it is ironic how they are now sister companies.
The A&H may find it's comfortable nice in the church market which in no way demeans it's image.
Can you name another console that can make 8 iPad mixes with no work surface ?
And if you intend to climb into a broadcast truck to do a music show you'd better jump on the LAWO bus.
Yes and +1.
I didn't encounter very many Soundtraks mixers and I'm glad I didn't. Every one of the had problems - intermittent channels, phantom power issues... whatever else they did when they adopted the DigiCo badge, it replaced a failing brand image with a new one.
The DigiCo apologists amaze me (they're like annoying Apple fanboys): if ANY other brand did what the SD7 did (lock up and require a reboot just by *talking* about the issue) there would be massive and hysterical finger pointing, great wailing and gnashing of teeth and general disparagement about the "absolute shite of a console" being pimped about.
I can't think of another brand of audio console where you need to carry a fully appointed spare (maybe even hot and powered up in a vom) in case the FOH or monitor desk takes a dive. Never seen that with a PM4000... spare PSU, yes. Full console? Nope. XL250? Spare PSU. PM5D? Nope. Avid Venue series? This level of failure, of a *flagship model*, should have raise the collective howls of end users and owners alike. The apologists say "carry another $100,000 spare..."
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I agree Tim
It amazes me when I hear you need to put a Antelope Atomic clock (@$$10K) on a SD7 (@$$230K) to make it sound good.
One of my top local engineers and good friend does a major artist with 2xSD7's and a SD5...and carries a 7 & 5 as spares !
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The interesting thing is that as soon as you supply word clock to a device, the device then has to use a PLL to generate audio clock. This introduces PLL errors. A mixer working on a straight crystal clock internally generated will always be better than being externally wordclocked. Its a shame those people dont know their engineering basics. Or do they like the sound of the PLL?
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FWIW if Audiotonix had put a Digco badge on the dLive and double the price all the naysayers would be in awe :D
Absolutely!
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Yes and +1.
I didn't encounter very many Soundtraks mixers and I'm glad I didn't. Every one of the had problems - intermittent channels, phantom power issues... whatever else they did when they adopted the DigiCo badge, it replaced a failing brand image with a new one.
The DigiCo apologists amaze me (they're like annoying Apple fanboys): if ANY other brand did what the SD7 did (lock up and require a reboot just by *talking* about the issue) there would be massive and hysterical finger pointing, great wailing and gnashing of teeth and general disparagement about the "absolute shite of a console" being pimped about.
I can't think of another brand of audio console where you need to carry a fully appointed spare (maybe even hot and powered up in a vom) in case the FOH or monitor desk takes a dive. Never seen that with a PM4000... spare PSU, yes. Full console? Nope. XL250? Spare PSU. PM5D? Nope. Avid Venue series? This level of failure, of a *flagship model*, should have raise the collective howls of end users and owners alike. The apologists say "carry another $100,000 spare..."
^^this^^
My first experience with a Digico desk was the salesman demoing a D5 desk in the shop. Managed to lock it up in less than 5 minutes and then tried to spin it as something great that it still passed audio. So i asked him how we could regain control of the thing. "reboot it", he said. "Does it continue to pass audio while you reboot it?". "Well, no...."
I know that was a while ago, but certain things stick with you. And I've heard enough horror stories about later iterations to not feel any compulsion to hop on the bandwagon now either.
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I know this is so far off topic and I'll try bring it back but if I can speak briefly about Digico from my theatrical background. I've toured extensiy with many shows using many different consoles. Originally Cadac was the console of choice, and we went bumped them around various countries and they mostly worked how they should. We'd always carry a couple of flight cases of spare modules which did get used more often than we would all care to admit.
Cut to Digico which all the large shows I've worked on in recent years have been running on. I've yet to have an issue which has held up a rehearsal or a show. Never once had to hold doors or fly in an emergency console. Occasionally very occasionally I'll jump across to the B engine on an SD7 if I think I hear something out of the ordinary, but I've never had a failular of an engine or surface.
Perhaps I've been incredibly lucky. But at over 300 performances a year I'd be buying a lotto ticket if it was just luck!
I have heard stories and have had trusted colleagues have consoles do funny things and in some exceptionally rare cases stop or cancel performances
As far as console choice, we have it very different in theatre. Me as a mixer have next to no say as to what console a show goes out on. This is chosen by the designer based on what he/she knows and are comfortable working with. Provided that it meets the budget requirements of the show too that is! As far as my preference, I can mix a musical on whatever I find myself in front of. There are certain features which are nice to have. (Digico T Software) But as far as throwing faders up at the right time... The feel of the fader is more important to me than the GUI.
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I know this is so far off topic and I'll try bring it back but if I can speak briefly about Digico from my theatrical background. I've toured extensiy with many shows using many different consoles. Originally Cadac was the console of choice, and we went bumped them around various countries and they mostly worked how they should. We'd always carry a couple of flight cases of spare modules which did get used more often than we would all care to admit.
Cut to Digico which all the large shows I've worked on in recent years have been running on. I've yet to have an issue which has held up a rehearsal or a show. Never once had to hold doors or fly in an emergency console. Occasionally very occasionally I'll jump across to the B engine on an SD7 if I think I hear something out of the ordinary, but I've never had a failular of an engine or surface.
Perhaps I've been incredibly lucky. But at over 300 performances a year I'd be buying a lotto ticket if it was just luck!
I have heard stories and have had trusted colleagues have consoles do funny things and in some exceptionally rare cases stop or cancel performances
As far as console choice, we have it very different in theatre. Me as a mixer have next to no say as to what console a show goes out on. This is chosen by the designer based on what he/she knows and are comfortable working with. Provided that it meets the budget requirements of the show too that is! As far as my preference, I can mix a musical on whatever I find myself in front of. There are certain features which are nice to have. (Digico T Software) But as far as throwing faders up at the right time... The feel of the fader is more important to me than the GUI.
Cadac consoles were originally designed especially for theatre, even their physically design was based on theatre seat / row dimensions, they were not as deep (front to back) as most other consoles and took up less space needing less seats to be removed – and every seat = $$$.
The first Digico I saw, a D5 didn’t make it to the endo of the demo; there were lots of issues, but now in 2017 I don’t see too many problems. FWIW our dLive has been rock solid, and I’m not hearing of issues from other owners.
If you want to compare a dLive to Digico – it’s slightly more powerful than an SD10.
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I find it so interesting that when an audio console "goes down" we tend to either cover it up and keep hush about it cause its our favorite console or simply never use it again. In the lampy department, they had the old High End Systems Hog III. That console would crash if you breathed too close to it. Those guys and gals went back to it all the time defending it. Some would claim that if you put a two way radio too close it made it crash. I know there have been a number of people that were hesitant to purchase a Hog4 because of the issues with 3. Im at the front of the line being skeptical. It took about 3 years for me to cave.
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Clearly the original post guy has had some bad experiences and I think it’s fair to say A&H have in the past released some consoles that weren’t the best however dLive and SQ are a completely new generation- R & D wise they are achieving things in their consoles that no other manufacturer is capable of. I know damn well the size of some dLive gigs because I’ve been at them. Maybe a headline act at one of Europe’s biggest festivals (FOH & MONS) which is now permanent 1st choice on that acts rider isn’t big enough for him - or a 500,000 cap event run entirely on dLives isn’t pro enough or major stadium tours not high profile enough.... nearly every major rental house in Europe owns them now. In terms of reliability every brand has their fair share of issues and I know engineers that have had consoles from every brand fall over at some point, I also know of instances where dLive has saved the day on a tour because the big $000,000 console kept falling over. Wether the OP likes it or not dLive is holding its ground and steadily developing a good high profile user base and rider acceptance in a time where the accountants are questioning the ROI point on big expensive consoles or why the engineers want something half as capable for twice the price. Well done to them I say!!!
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Clearly the original post guy has had some bad experiences and I think it’s fair to say A&H have in the past released some consoles that weren’t the best however dLive and SQ are a completely new generation- R & D wise they are achieving things in their consoles that no other manufacturer is capable of. I know damn well the size of some dLive gigs because I’ve been at them. Maybe a headline act at one of Europe’s biggest festivals (FOH & MONS) which is now permanent 1st choice on that acts rider isn’t big enough for him - or a 500,000 cap event run entirely on dLives isn’t pro enough or major stadium tours not high profile enough.... nearly every major rental house in Europe owns them now. In terms of reliability every brand has their fair share of issues and I know engineers that have had consoles from every brand fall over at some point, I also know of instances where dLive has saved the day on a tour because the big $000,000 console kept falling over. Wether the OP likes it or not dLive is holding its ground and steadily developing a good high profile user base and rider acceptance in a time where the accountants are questioning the ROI point on big expensive consoles or why the engineers want something half as capable for twice the price. Well done to them I say!!!
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I have no problem with Allen-Heath, the manufacturer. Their USA distributor 10 years ago threw away a multiple unit order from us by dropping the ball on the promised demo consoles.
Eventually we purchased a combination of 5 Yamaha and AVID mixers.
In the advertising world there's a saying: "Creative wins the client and account services loses the client."
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I have no problem with Allen-Heath, the manufacturer. Their USA distributor 10 years ago threw away a multiple unit order from us by dropping the ball on the promised demo consoles.
That's about the same period that I had my support troubles with Allen&Heath (about 12 years ago). I haven't given them much thought since.
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I had a VW 10 years ago - the dealer was terrible.... doesn’t mean I won’t buy another
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I had a VW 10 years ago - the dealer was terrible.... doesn’t mean I won’t buy another
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In most major cities you can drive across town to a different dealer. You don't have that option with a single importer/distributor.
It doesn't matter how brilliant something is if it's not in the hands of the people who actually spend the money for it.
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In install land the DLive is great. There were some early firmware tweaks, but they have been great so far. The cross-polination with Digico hasn't hurt, the interface is awesome.
Support has been great, but we're a larger user so that is to be expected.
It seems like most end users either want Digico, or are familiar with Yamaha, or want SSL, but are willing to save a chunk of money and go with "close enough" (compared to Digico or SSL or Yamaha PM) or better (compared to Yamaha CL).
I'm out of the loop regarding live production and tours now.
I wouldn't feel limited or hesitant by a DLive, Digico SD, Yamaha PM, or SSL. To me they are all similar enough to be considered the same league.
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I'm out of the loop regarding live production and tours now.
I wouldn't feel limited or hesitant by a DLive, Digico SD, Yamaha PM, or SSL. To me they are all similar enough to be considered the same league.
Digico SD7 and SD10, with a spattering of SD8s (all with the theatre software package) rule the roost in touring Broadway. I've seen a few CL5s, but it's been a few years. Been awhile since I've seen any of the Avid consoles either.
Never once seen an Allen and Heath console in touring Broadway. No Soundcrafts either. I don't work arena shows any more, so I'm not sure what they are carrying.
But of all the riders that we get for one off shows, or smaller music touring acts, I have never seen Allen and Heath listed as a preferred console either.
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Digico SD7 and SD10, with a spattering of SD8s (all with the theatre software package) rule the roost in touring Broadway. I've seen a few CL5s, but it's been a few years. Been awhile since I've seen any of the Avid consoles either.
Never once seen an Allen and Heath console in touring Broadway. No Soundcrafts either. I don't work arena shows any more, so I'm not sure what they are carrying.
But of all the riders that we get for one off shows, or smaller music touring acts, I have never seen Allen and Heath listed as a preferred console either.
Your comments about them being used in theater situations made me think of something:
Last year, we did a couple of outdoor shows (fairs/festivals) that both happened to be two-band nights. At the first one, the headliner brought in their own console (Digico SD) and the opener had a show file for our Pro2. The second show was a reverse in that the headliner had a Pro2 file and the opener brought their own SD. Both cases, even under a tent at FOH, you could NOT see the Digico screens without nearly completely covering the console until it was dark. The one guy even carried a black felt blanket in the doghouse for laying over the console while using the screen. The Midas screen was clear as day no matter how bright it was out there.
I recently saw a concert on TV where one of the camera angles kept catching monitor world where there was an SD-something (don't remember which one), and there was a guy standing next to monitor dude holding a big piece of cardboard over the console while he was messing with the screen. Tried to find it on youtube...no luck yet.
My question for the Digico guys is: Are they all like this? I can see where a dark theater wouldn't be a problem, but based on my experiences with those things outdoors I'd never want to use one anywhere but in a dimly lit basement. Nice feature set though...
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The preponderance of Digico in the Broadway theatre world is due mainly to their theatre specific software package which was developed by Andrew Bruce, who also developed the theatre specific SAM automation package for the Cadac J-Type analog console which were the previous primary Broadway theatre sound console.
Obviously, outdoor rock and roll festivals that need to be seen under direct sunlight are less interested in automation than they are being able to seen the stuff on the screen.
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Obviously, outdoor rock and roll festivals that need to be seen under direct sunlight are less interested in automation than they are being able to seen the stuff on the screen.
You've got that right! There is a company manufacturing console "tents" for specific boards. That's not what they call them, but I saw them at LDI, NAMM, or both. They are black fabric with a light weight frame and cover the display but leave enough of the console exposed to mix from.
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You've got that right! There is a company manufacturing console "tents" for specific boards. That's not what they call them, but I saw them at LDI, NAMM, or both. They are black fabric with a light weight frame and cover the display but leave enough of the console exposed to mix from.
Do boards at this level provide external display outputs? (even if it's an internal header somewhere?)
We regularly install full-sunlight rated signage and TV's outdoors.
How cool would it be to have a 55" Sunbrite acting as your console's display. :)
(although I'm sure lack of touch sensor and alignment with hot-keys would be an issue with some models)
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Do boards at this level provide external display outputs? (even if it's an internal header somewhere?)
We regularly install full-sunlight rated signage and TV's outdoors.
How cool would it be to have a 55" Sunbrite acting as your console's display. :)
(although I'm sure lack of touch sensor and alignment with hot-keys would be an issue with some models)
Not from Yamaha. I think maybe Avid does this, and Digio has an overview view, but not really a full duplicate of the screen surface.
Plus most of these console have touch screen now.
I can barley seem my laptop or iPad screen during the day when I go out and do recording or Smaart tuning at the local outdoor venue that I work at occasionally.
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On top of that, my prescription sunglasses are polarized and completely block the light from some displays.
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On top of that, my prescription sunglasses are polarized and completely block the light from some displays.
Just tilt your head ;D
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You've got that right! There is a company manufacturing console "tents" for specific boards. That's not what they call them, but I saw them at LDI, NAMM, or both. They are black fabric with a light weight frame and cover the display but leave enough of the console exposed to mix from.
I wonder if anything like this would help on the console screen directly.
https://www.nushield.com/anti-reflective-film
I needed a new screen protection for a laptop that I use at FOH so I picked up one to try out for this summers festivals.
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Use a black tent instead of white. I also use my laptop as a sunblocker if needed. I put it on the doghouse, with the keyboard facing away from me. I then can position the screen over the console screen.
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Do boards at this level provide external display outputs? (even if it's an internal header somewhere?)
If you need a better daylight solution you can mirror your DiGiCo SD engine to the offline editor running on a WIN Computer with a huge daylight viewable screen or even touchscreen.
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On top of that, my prescription sunglasses are polarized and completely block the light from some displays.
Twist your head 90 degrees.
Chris.
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Use a black tent instead of white. I also use my laptop as a sunblocker if needed. I put it on the doghouse, with the keyboard facing away from me. I then can position the screen over the console screen.
Even that didn't work. These things weren't viewable even slightly in ambient light levels where the Midas and Yamaha consoles were clear as day (during the day...haha). A black blanket covering the entire console was the only way the guys could see their screens. Two different consoles at two different shows.
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Even that didn't work. These things weren't viewable even slightly in ambient light levels where the Midas and Yamaha consoles were clear as day (during the day...haha). A black blanket covering the entire console was the only way the guys could see their screens. Two different consoles at two different shows.
I bought a blue opaque top for my ez-up. If fixed the sunlight problem. Then i had this festival where the organizer got all upset that i had blue top and everyone else had white. She had quite a hissy fit.
So, i just reinstalled the original white top over the blue. Problem solved.
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I wonder if anything like this would help on the console screen directly.
https://www.nushield.com/anti-reflective-film
I needed a new screen protection for a laptop that I use at FOH so I picked up one to try out for this summers festivals.
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I have not seen that before, but it looks very interesting. The product I saw was truly a small black tent to fit on (or over) the console display and most of the board. I think I found the product I saw: www.consoleshades.net.
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I made a sun blocker out of foam core for my Performer, primarily because the Fader Glow color coding of the fader slots was not visible in sun light. Kind of hard to tell what layer you're on.
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Do boards at this level provide external display outputs?
d-live does have an external monitor output but it is VGA in 4:3. However, it does support touch screen control. Secondarily you can run the director software and use that for an external screen as well, even without a console surface.
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FWIW new firmware V1.7 has just just released for the dLive.
It includes -
Shure wireless integration - monitor and control Axient® Digital, ULX-D® and QLX-D™
Inputs can now be routed to Matrices for fine-tuning of speaker cluster contributions in larger venues. Mixes can be patched to the PAFL External Input and vice-versa, allowing multiple ways of creating technician chat channels, and mixes can be patched to inputs for advanced processing.
...and there is support for the new super quality PRIME I/O modules.