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Title: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Johnathan Cappers on May 17, 2021, 12:56:35 AM
I'm in the market to grab some subs that play low and loud. I'm compiling a list of subs that have peaked my interest to grab a demo. Extension is most important for me and then SPL as I'm in a venue where the subs will mostly be installed for both theater and music work.

I was thinking a bout the BC218 (the BC415 seems to have more output, but the BC218 digs deeper and 2 benefits from forward directivity)
Some M-force cabinets from DAS
Kraken from Bassboss
RCF 9007
JTR Captivator 4000 ( not really a PA sub, but the extension is insane)

Any others I should put on my demo radar?
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Caleb Dueck on May 17, 2021, 01:54:21 AM
I'm in the market to grab some subs that play low and loud. I'm compiling a list of subs that have peaked my interest to grab a demo. Extension is most important for me and then SPL as I'm in a venue where the subs will mostly be installed for both theater and music work.

I was thinking a bout the BC218 (the BC415 seems to have more output, but the BC218 digs deeper and 2 benefits from forward directivity)
Some M-force cabinets from DAS
Kraken from Bassboss
RCF 9007
JTR Captivator 4000 ( not really a PA sub, but the extension is insane)

Any others I should put on my demo radar?

Bassboss ZV28 - not as choked at high SPL as the Kraken.

Danley DBH-218-LC - it's a custom box, basically a 60" deep DBH with dual mouth positions.  The 'poor man's BC218'.  In multiples it plays down to around 24Hz.

If you really need 'deep' - not many subs will do really deep as well as the upper bass region.  That's where I'd play with something like BC415's for the bulk of the bass and the impact, mixed with ZV28's for the deep bass.  If you go this route, you'll need to make a list of 'deep subs' vs 'impact subs'. 

Danley TH-221 for the 'deep subs'.

Hennessey Battleaxe - has to be in multiples.

If you are open for DIY, there are a few more options. 
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on May 17, 2021, 06:13:04 AM
Fulcrum TS221
EAW SB2001 or Otto
Meyer 1100LFC
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Johnathan Cappers on May 17, 2021, 08:29:29 AM
Bassboss ZV28 - not as choked at high SPL as the Kraken.

Danley DBH-218-LC - it's a custom box, basically a 60" deep DBH with dual mouth positions.  The 'poor man's BC218'.  In multiples it plays down to around 24Hz.

If you really need 'deep' - not many subs will do really deep as well as the upper bass region.  That's where I'd play with something like BC415's for the bulk of the bass and the impact, mixed with ZV28's for the deep bass.  If you go this route, you'll need to make a list of 'deep subs' vs 'impact subs'. 

Danley TH-221 for the 'deep subs'.

Hennessey Battleaxe - has to be in multiples.

If you are open for DIY, there are a few more options.

I actually am open to DIY, If I can get a few opinions of how the sub may sound before building it. The only reason I say that is because some subs look good on paper and measure a certain way, but sound terrible, but I've some decent wood working skills.  I've actually tried to hear a shootout between a TH221 and BC218 but nobody  seems to have the 221 nearby (miami). I am surprised to hear that the Kraken sounds "choked", I am wondering if it is because its port or vent limited? Possibly amp limiters?

 
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 17, 2021, 12:35:44 PM
The one thing to remember is the tradeoff.

With ANY sub, as you go lower, you get less output (everything else being equal)

It is roughly 9dB octave.

So you must really consider how low and how loud you REALLY need to go.  You have to give up something.

When comparing loudspeakers, the "simple numbers" can often be misleading.  Sometimes VERY misleading.

You REALLY need to see measured response graphs, in relation to input level to begin to be able to compare.

Without a response graph, you have no idea how low the cabinet can really go.
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Dan Mortensen on May 17, 2021, 02:34:47 PM
Bassboss ZV28 - not as choked at high SPL as the Kraken.


Somewhat OT comment regarding Bassboss, sorry I don't have more on-topic:

Looking into this a little, I see that David Lee is the designer of this box, maybe all the Bassboss boxes? He was at Bassmaxx when my AES Section hosted a listening party for big subs back in the 90's. He seemed like a good guy, and I'm glad he's still doing this.

He's been able to shave 6" off the two larger dimensions of the speaker, compared to the Bassmaxx B1, and add an internal amp, which seems nice.

Fun that "Bassboss" and "Bassmaxx" are so similar.
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 17, 2021, 03:03:59 PM
Somewhat OT comment regarding Bassboss, sorry I don't have more on-topic:

Looking into this a little, I see that David Lee is the designer of this box, maybe all the Bassboss boxes? He was at Bassmaxx when my AES Section hosted a listening party for big subs back in the 90's. He seemed like a good guy, and I'm glad he's still doing this.

He's been able to shave 6" off the two larger dimensions of the speaker, compared to the Bassmaxx B1, and add an internal amp, which seems nice.

Fun that "Bassboss" and "Bassmaxx" are so similar.
They are the same company, just a new name.
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Doug Fowler on May 17, 2021, 03:26:50 PM
Somewhat OT comment regarding Bassboss, sorry I don't have more on-topic:

Looking into this a little, I see that David Lee is the designer of this box, maybe all the Bassboss boxes? He was at Bassmaxx when my AES Section hosted a listening party for big subs back in the 90's. He seemed like a good guy, and I'm glad he's still doing this.

He's been able to shave 6" off the two larger dimensions of the speaker, compared to the Bassmaxx B1, and add an internal amp, which seems nice.

Fun that "Bassboss" and "Bassmaxx" are so similar.

He has been laser focused for a while now.  You can believe his measurements.

First iteration of his line array missed the mark, I have not heard the new one but the 3 way top box is fantastic. 
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Russell Ault on May 17, 2021, 08:13:23 PM
{...} Meyer 1100LFC

You can extend that further with the Meyer VLFC, which tops (not bottoms) out at 30 Hz. Biggest downside (other than the 135 kg weight) is that it's 208/240 only...

-Russ
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Johnathan Cappers on May 18, 2021, 03:58:28 AM
The one thing to remember is the tradeoff.

With ANY sub, as you go lower, you get less output (everything else being equal)

It is roughly 9dB octave.

So you must really consider how low and how loud you REALLY need to go.  You have to give up something.

When comparing loudspeakers, the "simple numbers" can often be misleading.  Sometimes VERY misleading.

You REALLY need to see measured response graphs, in relation to input level to begin to be able to compare.

Without a response graph, you have no idea how low the cabinet can really go.

Yah, the problem is finding response graphs. Does anyone have responses of BC218, Meyers VLFC and 1100? I was trying to look on their websites to see what I'd be working with measurement wise to rule some out.
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Steve Litcher on May 18, 2021, 12:26:19 PM

I was thinking a bout the BC218 (the BC415 seems to have more output, but the BC218 digs deeper and 2 benefits from forward directivity)
Some M-force cabinets from DAS
Kraken from Bassboss
RCF 9007
JTR Captivator 4000 ( not really a PA sub, but the extension is insane)

Any others I should put on my demo radar?

Unless you need to go below 25Hz, I'd skip the JTR C4000 and go with the C218 Pro. It'll do 27Hz all day long at good volume.
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Russell Ault on May 18, 2021, 02:31:10 PM
Yah, the problem is finding response graphs. Does anyone have responses of BC218, Meyers VLFC and 1100? I was trying to look on their websites to see what I'd be working with measurement wise to rule some out.

Officially, Meyer doesn't publish graphs because they feel it's too easy to produce ones that are misleading; instead they publish MAPP (for free) so that you can generate your own graphs using super-high-resolution 3D anechoic measurements of their speakers. I believe Danley takes the same approach with their software.

For reference, I've attached quick-and-dirty measurements from MAPP XT of both the 1100-LFC and VLFC at ~1m (and you can really see what Ivan is talking about regarding frequency and level), but your best would be to grab MAPP and Danley's Polar Pattern Explorer and play around with them.

-Russ
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Matthias McCready on May 18, 2021, 03:31:58 PM
Officially, Meyer doesn't publish graphs because they feel it's too easy to produce ones that are misleading; instead they publish MAPP (for free) so that you can generate your own graphs using super-high-resolution 3D anechoic measurements of their speakers. I believe Danley takes the same approach with their software.

For reference, I've attached quick-and-dirty measurements from MAPP XT of both the 1100-LFC and VLFC at ~1m (and you can really see what Ivan is talking about regarding frequency and level), but your best would be to grab MAPP and Danley's Polar Pattern Explorer and play around with them.

-Russ

To quote Merlijn Van Veen (as I encountered the same phenomenon).

"The VLFC, the only time I have heard a stadium cheer for the subs."

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Doug Fowler on May 18, 2021, 04:01:15 PM
Yah, the problem is finding response graphs. Does anyone have responses of BC218, Meyers VLFC and 1100? I was trying to look on their websites to see what I'd be working with measurement wise to rule some out.

Here is my near field measurement of a ZV-28 from a few years back, see attached.
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 19, 2021, 08:13:53 AM
Yah, the problem is finding response graphs. Does anyone have responses of BC218-------------,
All of the response graphs for Danley products are on the spec sheets on the website.  As well as the measurement conditions

Here is a link to the BC218

https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/BC-218-spec-sheet-2.pdf
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Johnathan Cappers on May 19, 2021, 12:43:35 PM
All of the response graphs for Danley products are on the spec sheets on the website.  As well as the measurement conditions

Here is a link to the BC218

https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/BC-218-spec-sheet-2.pdf

Yo, Ivan this helps a heap! You DA MAN!
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Johnathan Cappers on May 19, 2021, 12:58:17 PM
Officially, Meyer doesn't publish graphs because they feel it's too easy to produce ones that are misleading; instead they publish MAPP (for free) so that you can generate your own graphs using super-high-resolution 3D anechoic measurements of their speakers. I believe Danley takes the same approach with their software.

For reference, I've attached quick-and-dirty measurements from MAPP XT of both the 1100-LFC and VLFC at ~1m (and you can really see what Ivan is talking about regarding frequency and level), but your best would be to grab MAPP and Danley's Polar Pattern Explorer and play around with them.


Russ, I'm just trying to get a brief understanding of what I'm looking at so I can adjust calculations because I see 2 measurements of Distance...1 for 33ft, another for 20ft. Is this a 1m sensitivity graph?

-Russ
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Russell Ault on May 19, 2021, 03:51:47 PM
Russ, I'm just trying to get a brief understanding of what I'm looking at so I can adjust calculations because I see 2 measurements of Distance...1 for 33ft, another for 20ft. Is this a 1m sensitivity graph?

Both "measurements" were taken with the microphone ~1m (this was quick-and-dirty, so I think the actual distance was 3.33') from the grill of the speaker. I believe the "Approximate Distance" number shown is extrapolated from the "Peak Impulse" time of the measurement (i.e. distance = speed × time) which, at these frequencies, is lagging well behind the actual distance's time-of-flight.

If you haven't already done so, I'd really encourage you to download MAPP (and other manufacturer's software); it's a good way to quickly examine aspects of how speakers operate that the specs alone won't tell you.

-Russ
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Peter Morris on May 19, 2021, 06:54:41 PM
Both "measurements" were taken with the microphone ~1m (this was quick-and-dirty, so I think the actual distance was 3.33') from the grill of the speaker. I believe the "Approximate Distance" number shown is extrapolated from the "Peak Impulse" time of the measurement (i.e. distance = speed × time) which, at these frequencies, is lagging well behind the actual distance's time-of-flight.

If you haven't already done so, I'd really encourage you to download MAPP (and other manufacturer's software); it's a good way to quickly examine aspects of how speakers operate that the specs alone won't tell you.

-Russ

Just remember the fine print on Danley's spec sheet - those sensitivity measurements are 2.83 volts @ 2 ohms.  They are not the same as almost everyone else that measures at 1W (nominal i.e. 2.83 volt for 8 ohms or 2 volts for 4 ohms etc.)  @ 1M  ... think in terms of them being 4 watts 1 meter, or take 6 dB off  ... still impressive  :)
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 19, 2021, 07:30:56 PM
Just remember the fine print on Danley's spec sheet - those sensitivity measurements are 2.83 volts @ 2 ohms.  They are not the same as almost everyone else that measures at 1W (nominal i.e. 2.83 volt for 8 ohms or 2 volts for 4 ohms etc.)  @ 1M  ... think in terms of them being 4 watts 1 meter, or take 6 dB off  ... still impressive  :)
The reason for 2.83V is that you can apply 2.83V to a loudspeaker.

You cannot apply 1 watt to a loud speaker because the impedance varies all over the place, so you would have to apply a special curve with varying voltage in order to get 1 watt.  And then the freq response would be all messed up.

And the actual impedance may not be a standard 2,4,8 ohms.

As usual, it is not a simple situation.

By applying a constant voltage to all models, it makes it easier to compare actual sensitivity with a constant source.

As with other things audio, a simple answer results in a wrong answer.
Title: Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on May 20, 2021, 03:08:03 AM
Just remember the fine print on Danley's spec sheet - those sensitivity measurements are 2.83 volts @ 2 ohms.  They are not the same as almost everyone else that measures at 1W (nominal i.e. 2.83 volt for 8 ohms or 2 volts for 4 ohms etc.)  @ 1M  ... think in terms of them being 4 watts 1 meter, or take 6 dB off  ... still impressive  :)

They're not the only manufacturer playing that game.
Several well-known brands have moved from 6 to 12dB crest factor in their published specs, so you'll need to keep track of  this when comparing stuff.
I do consulting for a funding program, having a hard time sometimes explaining to people why there isn't a real-world 6dB difference between two speakers with identical drivers in a front-loaded box.
Title: Re: In the market for something other than simpe confusion
Post by: Art Welter on May 20, 2021, 10:09:42 AM
The reason for 2.83V is that you can apply 2.83V to a loudspeaker.

And the actual impedance may not be a standard 2,4,8 ohms.

By applying a constant voltage to all models, it makes it easier to compare actual sensitivity with a constant source.

As with other things audio, a simple answer results in a wrong answer.
Yes, it is simply easier to test everything with one voltage regardless of the nominal impedance you designate your speakers that may or not be 2,4,6, or 8 ohm.

It's been about a dozen (or so) years since DSL changed sensitivity ratings from 1W/1M to 28.3/2.83v for everything regardless of impedance, though still recall the discussions regarding the "1W/1M" SH50 with a 6 ohm nominal impedance and a 3.5 ohm minimum using 28.3 volts at 10 meters, and a dozen crossovers for John A. Chiara (aka. Blind Johnny).

Difficult to relate to sensitivity ratings when the "watts" used for DSL's "power handling" still are the same as the drivers installed are rated at using voltage specific to their nominal impedance.

Just math though, everybody knows that you simply subtract  0, 3, or 6 dB from the DSL specs to convert back to the olden days when we thought in terms of watts rather than volts. I remember those 40volt amps were really heavy ;^)   

Art