Post by: The Guy on October 30, 2006, 11:18:50 AM
Initial impressions:
Build quality of the unit is fairly solid. From my understanding, these units are very similar if not identical to the Xilica DLP4080 processors. It comes shipped with a copy of the control software and all the paperwork. Right out of the box the unit is easy to navigate (as the namesake would suggest.) It does seem to take a long time to boot compared to the XTA and DBX Driverack units.
In Use:
I programmed it for my first show via the front panel with ease. As many of you know, some DSP units are a bit clumsy to work with if you're not programming them on a PC, but this wasn't the case. The first show was a simple rig...a GL3300 console to the navigator to a couple compact speakers on poles and a pair of SB1000 subs. The navigator performed well.
I decided to program it for a stereo 4-way system (Turbo Flashlight) via the control interface software (see screenshots below.) The software is easy to use and is very straightforward. Enough DSP horsepower is available for any application that I can think of.
In use with the Flashlight system, unscientific listening tests proved that it sounded as good as my usual flavor of DSP (XTA DP226 or Driverack 480.) I can't say how the EQ filters sounded, as the Flashlight boxes do not require any output EQ as per the factory settings. I assume the output parametrics sound as good as anything.
The Navigator offers a pretty good DSP package (4x8 in 1U of rack space) for a competitive price. For those of us who can't afford a Dolby Lake or an XTA DP448, the Sabine NAV series are a good option. They're also available in 3x6 and 8x8 models.
Good:
-Full featured, affordable DSP
-Flexible Routing
-Software Interface is well designed
-Decent sound quality
-Easy to use
Not as good:
-Encoder wheel on front panel seems fidgety
-Takes longer than expected to boot up
See below for some pics.
-JB
Post by: The Guy on October 30, 2006, 11:19:41 AM
Post by: The Guy on October 30, 2006, 11:20:14 AM
Post by: Matt McCord on October 31, 2006, 02:22:57 AM
Post by: John Brearton on November 01, 2006, 04:08:38 AM
I just got a NAV3600 based on the 3x6 configuration and my need for stereo 2-way plus sub mix. The specs and features are impressive for the price.
I just powered up the NAV3600.
start up: 15-20sec to fire up with last used program
loading a new program: 15-20 sec
No huge issue but much slower that the Driveracks I am used to.
15-20 sec would seem an eternity if a power issue caused a reboot in the middle of a show... i just tried flipping the switch off and on as quick as possible to see if there was any forgiveness for a less than 1 second loss of power... nope...
You should know that the NAV3600 has only 2 lines of display as opposed to 3 lines on the 4xxx models. This makes it slower to program as you have to page more. I have only powered it up on my desk, paged through the menus and browsed the manual. I created a simple program and saved it with a name but it wont reload properly. I haven't hooked it up to anything yet. It doesn't seem to have any presets so you have to start from scratch (unless some are on the CD ROM). okay i see the website seems to have added presets...maybe new models will come loaded.
Also - i figured it out - it only saves 30 programs and I saved my test program in space 31... somehow it let's you think you are saving to #31 when it doesn't have a space for it.. (maybe it's the temporary storage space?)
I am not slamming the NAV3600, just letting you know what I noticed so far. I do not plan on doing very much programming without a computer interface.
FYI Mine is firmware v5.10... one rev behind
I am hoping the sound quality makes me forget about these EARLY disappointments (mainly because I did not realize there was such a rudimentary screen, an assumption on my part)
Post by: Doran Oster on November 08, 2006, 12:52:07 PM
A new computer interface scheduled for release at the end of the year. It is even more intuitive than the current version. Firmware and software upgrades can be downloaded free from our website www.Sabine.com and they are backwards compatible.
I look forward to your comments about the sound quality, flexibility, and the quality of the interface. Call me at Sabine if you have any questions.
Doran Oster,
President
Sabine, Inc.
Post by: Phillip_Graham on November 08, 2006, 02:09:47 PM
| Doran wrote on Wed, 08 November 2006 12:52 |
Sabine is releasing a new firmware rev soon that speeds up the process of loading preset programs. We recommend using a computer to for the initial Navigator programming and reserve the front panel for tweaks in the field. The front panel design allows you to select some or all channels and update them simultaneously. This is much easier than editing one channel and then copying the edit to other channels. A new computer interface scheduled for release at the end of the year. It is even more intuitive than the current version. Firmware and software upgrades can be downloaded free from our website www.Sabine.com and they are backwards compatible. I look forward to your comments about the sound quality, flexibility, and the quality of the interface. Call me at Sabine if you have any questions. Doran Oster, President Sabine, Inc. |
Hey stranger, good to see you!
The mods are going to ask you to add your last name to your profile, just thought I would give you a heads up on that.
New product looks nice!
Post by: Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound on November 09, 2006, 07:04:30 PM
Jeff
PS. The NAV-3600's work great for using subs off of an aux send (and thus why we originally replaced DriveRack 260's).
Post by: Rob Spence on November 10, 2006, 11:35:46 AM
I have been using PowerQs and GraphiQs for years and love em. I especially like how I can use a computer with multiple GraphiQs at one time even though it is serial (I understand it was the best choice at the time).
I don't understand why DBX did such a poor job of the computer control of the DR260 not to mention there is no ability to control more than one. I guess they don't want their customers to buy more than one unit
Anyway, I look forward to replacing my Driverack with a Navigator sometime this winter.
Post by: John Brearton on November 11, 2006, 01:02:10 AM
Post by: Jens Droessler on November 15, 2006, 02:28:47 PM
Post by: The Guy on November 20, 2006, 04:26:14 PM
I'd be very interested to hear the Xilica DLP4080HD unit...looks like it might be a good one.
I've turned the Road Test unit over to Evan Kirkendall. Maybe he can fire up those TRX boxes in tri-amp mode once he gets those Mid drivers replaced
.-JB
Post by: Lee Jacobson on November 20, 2006, 05:53:48 PM
Post by: Bennett Prescott on November 20, 2006, 07:00:27 PM
Post by: Jens Droessler on November 20, 2006, 07:38:45 PM
Let's whisper a bit: Maybe one can put in the Sabine firmware in the original Xilicas.... I think the original Xilicas would be cheaper...
Post by: Sara Elliott on November 21, 2006, 06:55:20 PM
Evan, I look forward to seeing your posts and reviews on the product, make sure you put it through it's paces.
Post by: Lee Jacobson on November 21, 2006, 07:02:48 PM
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on November 21, 2006, 08:20:42 PM
| Lee Jacobson wrote on Tue, 21 November 2006 19:02 |
I get the feeling he'll be playing with either straight stereo 4 way, or stereo 3way plus sub on an aux, real soon..... |
I dont know what gives you that idea.
Until I get some NL8, it'll be doing mains, aux subs, and 2 mon mixes. That is, if I can figure out the damn thing. This is my first time playing around with a DSP, so its a learning process for me. Im working on getting it to do what I want. So far the DSP is winning.
Evan
Post by: Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound on November 21, 2006, 09:29:47 PM
Feel free to ping me if you need a hand. Once you get your head around a DSP you'll have a hard time figuring out how you lived without it.
Jeff
Post by: Bob Leonard on November 22, 2006, 11:44:30 PM
If you tell me this box enhances your sound I'm sold. So do a good job with the testing!!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 23, 2006, 12:15:58 PM
You will find the computer much more intuitive. Once you know what the unit can/will do, the front panel access will make more sense.
Most DSP's that have front panel access are a bit confusing. Take the easy road.
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on November 27, 2006, 07:14:23 PM
I finally figured out the damn thing. Ive got it setup for mono 3-way and aux sub. So, Im using 2 ins and 4 outs.
Ive still gotta tweak the settings for triamp, but Ive got good starting points. Cant wait to really dial it in and use it Saturday.
So far:
I did notice the unit does add a little bit of hiss to the system, but nothing that will be noticeable live.
Also, Im still having problems figuring out the comps. There seems to be no indication of when you are hitting them. I mean, when you hit them hard you can hear it, but other then that I cant tell. Are there supposed to be any indicators?
Evan
Post by: Mac Kerr on November 27, 2006, 07:35:48 PM
| Evan Kirkendall wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 19:14 |
Also, Im still having problems figuring out the comps. There seems to be no indication of when you are hitting them. I mean, when you hit them hard you can hear it, but other then that I cant tell. Are there supposed to be any indicators? |
Mac
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on November 27, 2006, 07:40:00 PM
Evan
Post by: Mac Kerr on November 27, 2006, 07:50:50 PM
| Evan Kirkendall wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 19:40 |
Yes, I know. But, I cant seem to find a limiter feature on it. Maybe Im overlooking something? |
Mac
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on November 27, 2006, 07:56:35 PM
| Mac Kerr wrote on Mon, 27 November 2006 19:50 | ||
Mac |
Which is what I did. 40:1 comp ratio and really fast eveything.
Evan
Post by: Bennett Prescott on November 27, 2006, 10:03:09 PM
Remember, when you go into limiting, you're increasing the density of the waveform. Set them too high and you'll be making it easier, not harder, to blow up your boxes.
Post by: Rob Spence on November 30, 2006, 11:21:56 PM
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 03, 2006, 12:58:33 AM
I used the Navigator tonight with my TRX's and UCS1's. I was just running 2 way mono with aux subs. It preformed great. Easy to do things on the fly and once you figure it out, its a very simple unit to use. One thing I really like about the unit is how bright the signal LED's are. I can tell how hard Im pushing things with no problems from FOH. The only thing Im not liking so far is the lack of limiter lights. I'd like to know when Im hitting the limiters, but I guess I can live without them...
Evan
Post by: Doran Oster on December 04, 2006, 11:41:36 AM
Hi Bennett and Evan,
Hard limiters typically clip high signal levels. Clipping means DC. Clipping sounds terrible and DC leads to blown speakers. This is why the Navigator does not offer a limiter. The better solution is to put two independent compressors in series.
The Navigator’s first compressor is in each channel input section. Set this one for controlling the channel’s dynamic range. A relatively slow attack time and perhaps a faster release time might sound best here.
The second compressor is in the output section. It protects the speakers from overload. Set the ratio as high as possible for a flat threshold. Set the output threshold above the input threshold so that it does not kick in except in extreme cases, but of course, set it below the levels that could damage the speakers. Set a very short attack time so that compression starts almost instantaneously and set a longer release time for caution. This configuration gives a clean and transparent program with controlled dynamic range under normal conditions. It protects your speakers from extreme levels quickly without clipping.
Our next software release adds metering and other improvements, and it will soon be available free at www.Sabine.com.
Doran Oster
President
www.Sabine.com
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 04, 2006, 02:11:18 PM
| Doran Oster wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 10:41 |
Hi Bennett and Evan, Hard limiters typically clip high signal levels. Clipping means DC. Clipping sounds terrible and DC leads to blown speakers. This is why the Navigator does not offer a limiter. The better solution is to put two independent compressors in series. The Navigator?s first compressor is in each channel input section. Set this one for controlling the channel?s dynamic range. A relatively slow attack time and perhaps a faster release time might sound best here. The second compressor is in the output section. It protects the speakers from overload. Set the ratio as high as possible for a flat threshold. Set the output threshold above the input threshold so that it does not kick in except in extreme cases, but of course, set it below the levels that could damage the speakers. Set a very short attack time so that compression starts almost instantaneously and set a longer release time for caution. This configuration gives a clean and transparent program with controlled dynamic range under normal conditions. It protects your speakers from extreme levels quickly without clipping. Our next software release adds metering and other improvements, and it will soon be available free at www.Sabine.com. Doran Oster President www.Sabine.com |
Hi and welcome to the LAB.
Limiters are routinely used to prevent clipping. There may be a transient DC component (is that an oxymoron?) due to asymmetrical clipping of peaks before the limiter's attack time can respond in low headroom applications but for a DC bias to persist at the loudspeaker the full audio path must be DC coupled "and" the asymmetrical clipping must be prolonged (for example from an steady state asymmetrical waveform that also exceeds the full gain reduction capability of the limiter).
JR
Post by: Iain_Macdonald on December 04, 2006, 03:14:03 PM
| John Roberts {JR} wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 19:11 | ||
Hi and welcome to the LAB. Limiters are routinely used to prevent clipping. There may be a transient DC component (is that an oxymoron?) due to asymmetrical clipping of peaks before the limiter's attack time can respond in low headroom applications but for a DC bias to persist at the loudspeaker the full audio path must be DC coupled "and" the asymmetrical clipping must be prolonged (for example from an steady state asymmetrical waveform that also exceeds the full gain reduction capability of the limiter). JR |
What Mr Roberts said. Plus. Don't forget the 'look ahead' limiter. Which allows a nominal zero attack time, and no significant clipping or distortion. It just lowers the level. Most appropriate for digital circuits, where you never really want to exceed 0dbFS, even for 1 sample.
Iain.
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 28, 2006, 06:48:47 PM
Used it live with the TRX's triamped last weekend. I must say, this unit is very easy to use. Doing things on the fly live was a breeze. The menus are very easy to flip through and find what you need. If you're an analog guy that was afraid to go over to digital this unit is for you. It changed my mind on digital stuff and so far the unit's been very reliable.
There are only a few things I dont like about it. First off(a big one for me) is the lack of limiter/compressor lights. You have no idea(besides hearing it) when you are into the compressors. I'd really like to see an LED on the front of the nav. that tells you when you're into compression. The only way I can figure out if Im hitting the comps is to bypass them and see how far the level jumps up on my amps. Lucky for me, with the triamped mains Im not even into the comps. Another thing is how long it takes to boot. It didnt bother me at first, and still doesnt bother me that much, but it takes a long time to get going. I blew the breaker at my gig on saturday and when I reset it the amps were ready to go, but we had to wait for the nav to boot. It takes close to a minute.
Other then those 2 things I really like it. It's a pretty solid unit that Im willing to trust. It gets the job done with little effort. I recommend it to those of you with analog x-overs.
Navigator in action:
Evan
Post by: Joe Breher on February 13, 2007, 04:35:24 PM
Just a note to add to the collective wisdom. I hadn't seen this point addressed.
I recently acquired a Sabine NAV3600 to replace my rusty old analog xo (brand name will not be mentioned, in order to avoid embarrassment). After having become somewhat accustomed to its operation, I wanted to run it remotely - with the NAV in my amp racks, and a laptop at FOH. I was wondering if the RS-232 was robust enough to handle this. I am now delighted to report that operation was flawless for me.
My particular configuraiton: I bought a generic 25' 9-pin RS-232 cable. Cut it roughly 1/3 - 2/3 in length. Attached an XLR to each raw end:
D-Sub - XLR
2 - 2
3 - 3
5 - 1
Was rough working with the generic serial cable - looks to be about 30 AWG, if not smaller.
Ran one of the resultant adapter cables from laptop to snake, and another from snake to NAV.
Operation was flawless.
My snake is 143' long. May be worth noting that it is AES/EBU cable (110 ohm). I must admit that it's awfully nice to have 94x22 channels in under a half-inch outside diameter cable!
Post by: Joe Breher on February 13, 2007, 04:48:19 PM
| Quote: |
I blew the breaker at my gig on saturday and when I reset it the amps were ready to go, but we had to wait for the nav to boot. |
As you are considering digital mixing (referring to your recent inquiries), I have one word (or is it three?): UPS.
I have been running a digital board for about 7 years now. Blew a breaker at one of the first shows with it. Under musicus interruptus, the time to reboot does seem like an eternity. Went out the next day and got two UPSs (my mixer is a split system, with a processor at stage end of snake, and control surface at FOH - 1 UPS for each).
Since then, it has never - I repeat never - died on me in the middle of a show. And my of choice digital mixer would probably be considered 'ghetto' by most LAB denizens with digital experience (though I obviously wouldn't agree).
Put that NAV (and your digital board) on a UPS, and you'll no longer need to sweat about blowing a breaker. Punters pulling cords may be a different story...
(edit: grammar)
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on February 13, 2007, 04:52:12 PM
BTW- I still am loving the Navigator. Great little unit for the money. Plenty of DSP powa!
Evan
Post by: Bennett Prescott on February 13, 2007, 07:28:48 PM
| Joe Breher wrote on Tue, 13 February 2007 16:48 |
...my of choice digital mixer would probably be considered 'ghetto' by most LAB denizens with digital experience (though I obviously wouldn't agree). |
Oooh! A guessing game... is it made by... Roland?
Post by: Joe Breher on February 13, 2007, 11:53:07 PM
| Bennett Prescott wrote on Tue, 13 February 2007 17:28 |
Oooh! A guessing game... is it made by... Roland? |
Umm, yeah. I actually own two of the VM-7200 systems, fully populated. I can combine 'em into a single large system.
Yup, it's quirky, but quite capable, and my workflows are already built around it. Trying to change to another system with a 20-pound 150' (OK, 143', but I have two more 15' extensions, so thats... umm... carry the one... 173') snake would cost me many more kilobux.
Short description: http://q-music.com/html/roland_vm.html
Post by: Christopher Myers on February 16, 2007, 01:05:29 PM
Just for the record I got mine in Sept. of 2006 and came with the latest firmware already installed.
With that said, I still think it's a great unit and a breeze to operate with the computer software. I like how each output has hi/lo/band pass instead of a general 'crossover' setting between channels.
Post by: Joe Breher on February 16, 2007, 07:14:12 PM
While I was somewhat disappointed, I am generally either driving it from a laptop, and/or only concerned with input (room) eq. Acordingly, it isn't really very limiting - just a bit inconvenient.
Post by: Joe Breher on February 16, 2007, 07:21:36 PM
I wonder if that means the promised digital IO will never be available for these first-gen units. I'd love to be able to run AES/EBU outa my board into the processor.
Post by: Andrew Roberts on February 23, 2007, 11:38:33 PM
My beef however is with connectivity and a related reliability problem. I'm using my old laptop (P3, windows2000) and a Radio Shack USB to DB9 interface (which came with drivers on CDRom). On many occaisions, I have received the message "Must Log on to this device". Then, after entering my password, the same message pops up and I can't access anything. I have also experienced sporatic episodes where I'll lose an output (in this case, the sub output) and the display will no longer register input or output signals. As you could imagine, this has been a drag when its happened during a show. I have to yank the USB and go "front panel" to get back to something usable- bummer.OBTW, I'm running software v5.04 and firm v 5.11
I'm wondering if any of you have experienced this and what kind of interface cables you are using (and how succesfully).
Post by: Joe Breher on February 24, 2007, 07:13:16 PM
I drive it from an ancient Gateway PII/266 laptop. Windows 2000. The laptop has an honest-to-goodness RS-232 port.
I'd suspect an issue with the USB-RS-232 thingy. Is yours listed on the Sabine website as a 'tested to work with the NAV' model?
I can't recall what versions of FW and SW I'm running. It is whatever was current when I received the unit - I think I updated both before putting the unit into service.
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on February 25, 2007, 12:46:31 AM
So, good job with the limiters Sabine! You cant hear them at all, and if you do, you gotta be hitting them hard. Yet another reason why you guys need to include a LED of some sort telling the user when you are hitting the comps.
Evan
Post by: Tim Padrick on February 25, 2007, 10:33:18 PM
Post by: Jens Brewer on March 09, 2007, 12:09:44 PM
| Andrew Roberts wrote on Sat, 24 February 2007 04:38 |
My beef however is with connectivity and a related reliability problem. I'm using my old laptop (P3, windows2000) and a Radio Shack USB to DB9 interface (which came with drivers on CDRom). On many occaisions, I have received the message "Must Log on to this device". Then, after entering my password, the same message pops up and I can't access anything. I have also experienced sporatic episodes where I'll lose an output (in this case, the sub output) and the display will no longer register input or output signals. As you could imagine, this has been a drag when its happened during a show. I have to yank the USB and go "front panel" to get back to something usable- bummer.OBTW, I'm running software v5.04 and firm v 5.11 |
USB to Serial converters really seem to be a hit-or-miss solution sometimes. When I last upgraded my laptop 2 years ago it had no serial port and I went thru three different USB-RS232 adaptors (I/O Gear, Rat Shack, and one I can't remember) before I got a Sabine approved GoldX one:
http://www.computercablestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=1135
It's been great and has worked well with every other RS232 piece of geared I've tried (dbx, Ashly, XTA, etc.) Give it a try.
Post by: Rob Spence on March 11, 2007, 12:29:08 PM
Post by: Christopher Myers on March 13, 2007, 12:23:42 PM
| Quote: |
Yes, and to try and get one that works with both Sabine and DBX is a trick. |
I use a PCMCIA to rs232 on my laptop that works flawlessly with both units. Import electronics from Ebay style
Post by: Doran Oster on March 13, 2007, 08:50:02 PM
Doran Oster
www.Sabine.com
Post by: Andrew Roberts on March 22, 2007, 10:14:12 AM
Post by: Don Lanier on January 05, 2008, 02:11:26 AM
Post by: Don Lanier on January 05, 2008, 02:18:07 AM
http://www.cablestogo.com/product.asp?cat%5Fid=1529&sku= 26886
Click on the product manual for the Driver and Manual
Post by: Don Boomer on January 08, 2008, 05:57:15 PM
We don't supply any presets (yet) but you should be able to easily insert the Peavey VSX or Digitool numbers directly into the Navigators since the filters are calculated the same way ... and you can do it in real time since the GUI works "live"
Post by: kevinnemrava on January 15, 2008, 08:38:01 PM
| Don Boomer wrote on Tue, 08 January 2008 22:57 |
Hey Don ... We don't supply any presets (yet) but you should be able to easily insert the Peavey VSX or Digitool numbers directly into the Navigators since the filters are calculated the same way ... and you can do it in real time since the GUI works "live" |
... easy there don..... :):)
LOL
Hey isn't there some rule about each member is only allowed 1 product in road testing
PS we are thinking of getting the Peavey array, now that yorkville system is out, and the price point is appeantly to high for us.
- to bad your not still there, I was going to see if you could pull some strings for us.
Kev.