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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Product Reviews => Topic started by: Rick Powell on November 02, 2012, 05:01:09 PM
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After much ado (>:( UPS) I have a pair of Danley SM80 speakers. The setup you see is a pair of SM80s powered by Crown xti4000 over a pair of TH115's powered by an Itech 6000. The first thing I noticed was how loud these things are. I had to dial back the inputs 4 clicks on the xti to match the tops with the bottoms; usually we are dialing the low end down by 5 dB or so. We listened to a bunch of stuff from my son's iphone and it wasnt' a good way to judge sound quality, so I pulled out a Yamaha CD changer and listended to the Mix Reference CD as well as some Josh Groban, and the sparkle and detail is there as one would expect. I did boost up the 160 Hz range a little on the main EQ, but other than a little low end bump, it was basically flat. We went out to the road (about 150' away) and still had good clarity (sorry, no SPL meter or analytical program traces).
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After much ado (>:( UPS) I have a pair of Danley SM80 speakers. The setup you see is a pair of SM80s powered by Crown xti4000 over a pair of TH115's powered by an Itech 6000. The first thing I noticed was how loud these things are. I had to dial back the inputs 4 clicks on the xti to match the tops with the bottoms; usually we are dialing the low end down by 5 dB or so. We listened to a bunch of stuff from my son's iphone and it wasnt' a good way to judge sound quality, so I pulled out a Yamaha CD changer and listended to the Mix Reference CD as well as some Josh Groban, and the sparkle and detail is there as one would expect. I did boost up the 160 Hz range a little on the main EQ, but other than a little low end bump, it was basically flat. We went out to the road (about 150' away) and still had good clarity (sorry, no SPL meter or analytical program traces).
Did you install pole mounts on your TH-115s?
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Did you install pole mounts on your TH-115s?
Yes, they are the K&M screw mount system. K&M 21334 "distance rod" poles and 24116 connector plates. There is a vertical wall inside the TH 115 that you have to avoid when drilling the hole (Ivan Beaver gave me instructions on missing it).
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Nice system, congrats :)
Can you tell me litle more about your purchase?
Why did you go for this system?
What other speakers did you had in mind, did you do comparissions with other speakers?
Sound quality compared to other speakers? any conclusions?
What was the end line that made you choose this speakers over other speakers brands?
What other speakers have you heard in your life?
Whats your purpose? Renting? DJing or live musicans performance.
How is the combination with the subs and tops. Sound quality.
Thanks :)
Regards
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Can you tell me litle more about your purchase?
Why did you go for this system?
I already had the TH115's. I also have a set of JTR Triple 8's that sound fantastic (and I highly recommend everything in the JTR line within its application); however, I was usually in at least 2-3 situations every year where I was pushing them to their limit and beyond, and needed something with a little more juice. I will definitely hang on to the Triple 8's and use them for side fills, floor monitors, or smallish SR gigs.
What other speakers did you had in mind, did you do comparisons with other speakers?
I considered EV QRX 212 and the new JTR Noesis series among others, as well as some used Fulcrums that were floating around. I had a single Danley SH50 for a short time but the thought of setting up a 135 lb speaker on multiple occasions got unappealing very fast, even though I liked the sound quality. The LAB is a great place to get the opinions of working sound people of what works for them and why.
Sound quality compared to other speakers? any conclusions?
I am a fan of single point sources, especially when done well. The SM80 sounds as good as anything out there of its size.
What was the end line that made you choose this speakers over other speakers brands?
Having a matched system and a point source box.
What other speakers have you heard in your life?
Starting with the Shure Vocalmaster and the Kustom sparkle PA cabinets, and ending with the Adamson line array used on the McCartney tour, too many to mention
Whats your purpose? Renting? DJing or live musicans performance.
Mostly live sound with my own band, occasional sound for other live bands. My son Ian does most of the mixing these days.
How is the combination with the subs and tops. Sound quality.Great, except the SM80 has way more headroom than one TH115. I could easily add another low end cab per side and still have a balanced mix, if I pushed the SM80 harder.
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How is the combination with the subs and tops. Sound quality.Great, except the SM80 has way more headroom than one TH115. I could easily add another low end cab per side and still have a balanced mix, if I pushed the SM80 harder.
I'm very interested in this. Will you have a chance to set up 2 TH115's under the SM80 and run it up to limit to see how it fares? I'm curious as to how many 115's it takes to match an 80 for live music...
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I'm very interested in this. Will you have a chance to set up 2 TH115's under the SM80 and run it up to limit to see how it fares? I'm curious as to how many 115's it takes to match an 80 for live music...
To be honest, I didn't believe Ivan Beaver's copuple posts here and on AVS forum where he stated one SM80 could keep up with two or three TH118's, depending on the style of music. I might try your suggestion out this Friday, where we are playing in a long, narrow club where we usually set up one over one. If I set up one over two, I will probably not be able to turn it up all the way except for a short sound check - they would probably frown at 135 dB in this place.
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To be honest, I didn't believe Ivan Beaver's copuple posts here and on AVS forum where he stated one SM80 could keep up with two or three TH118's, depending on the style of music. I might try your suggestion out this Friday, where we are playing in a long, narrow club where we usually set up one over one. If I set up one over two, I will probably not be able to turn it up all the way except for a short sound check - they would probably frown at 135 dB in this place.
I don't doubt Ivan at all, but the thing is that everybody has a different idea of how much bass is too much/not enough. Hearing from different users helps us all get an idea of how to use these things.
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Can you tell me litle more about your purchase?
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I considered EV QRX 212 and the new JTR Noesis series among others, as well as some used Fulcrums that were floating around...
I already own the QRX212/75 but dislike its placement options (scaffold needed to get it raised). Those JTR Noesis look very interesting but not many reviews at this point. I'd love to see how the Noesis 3tx or 212HT compares to the SM80. I'm gonna try and arrange a short trip to Danley with my QRX212/75's to do an A/B comparison as well.
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To be honest, I didn't believe Ivan Beaver's copuple posts here and on AVS forum where he stated one SM80 could keep up with two or three TH118's, depending on the style of music. I might try your suggestion out this Friday, where we are playing in a long, narrow club where we usually set up one over one. If I set up one over two, I will probably not be able to turn it up all the way except for a short sound check - they would probably frown at 135 dB in this place.
My statements come from the following basic experience. Take a properly powered TH118 and run it to the max.
Now turn up the SM80 until you have a "nice balance" (whatever that is?). Now look at how hard the SM80 is "running". You will realize that the SM80 is typically 6-10dB down from max output. So you would need at least an extra TH118 to keep up.
Now different people have different idea of how much bass should be used to "balance" the mid/highs.
Typically the range is 10-20dB for most popular forms of music. I use 15dB greater bass as a general "starting point".
So it is not as simple as having the same max output capability for both the subs and full range. The subs need to have quite a bit more output capability.
Now just to throw a "monkey wrench" into the whole "max SPL needed" consideration.
Simple numbers on a spec sheet are one thing-but what about sound quality? Do you really want to listen to speakers at their max rated output? Some you do-some you don't. But that is something that doesn't appear on any spec sheet.
So it is more of a "have to listen" to different products to determine what is the "max SPL that is listenable".
That is a much harder "spec" to come by.
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I don't doubt Ivan at all, but the thing is that everybody has a different idea of how much bass is too much/not enough. Hearing from different users helps us all get an idea of how to use these things.
I trust Ivan, but the real test is to ask Evan. ;-)
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Lol...
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So a couple of questions, Does the 80 deg conical pattern cause reflective issues in rooms with low ceilings, say 10'. I think I cross over my th118's under 80hz and let my tops punch the mid bass, does the 80-110 area get muddy coming from the subs assuming you have a higher lpf?
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So a couple of questions, Does the 80 deg conical pattern cause reflective issues in rooms with low ceilings, say 10'. I think I cross over my th118's under 80hz and let my tops punch the mid bass, does the 80-110 area get muddy coming from the subs assuming you have a higher lpf?
The one room I have used these in did not have huge reflectivity issues with the 80x80 pattern, but it has a 12 or 14' ceiling so no idea on the 10' ceiling in real life. It was a long and narrow hall and I actually used it 1 over 1 with a TH 115 on the bottom.
The SM80 really drops off below 100 Hz. I have the subs crossed around 90 Hz w/ 24dB/oct and the tops around 110 Hz with 12dB/oct, and don't really hear a hole at 100...I typically don't like a lot of excess energy at that frequency anyway.
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really drops off below 100 Hz. I have the subs crossed around 90 Hz w/ 24dB/oct and the tops around 110 Hz with 12dB/oct, and don't really hear a hole at 100...I typically don't like a lot of excess energy at that frequency anyway.
Rick thank you for sharing your views on this product.
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The one room I have used these in did not have huge reflectivity issues with the 80x80 pattern, but it has a 12 or 14' ceiling so no idea on the 10' ceiling in real life. It was a long and narrow hall and I actually used it 1 over 1 with a TH 115 on the bottom.
The SM80 really drops off below 100 Hz. I have the subs crossed around 90 Hz w/ 24dB/oct and the tops around 110 Hz with 12dB/oct, and don't really hear a hole at 100...I typically don't like a lot of excess energy at that frequency anyway.
The thing that a lot of people miss-is the difference between the ACOUSTICAL and ELECTRICAL points in a system.
Electrically it may seem like there is a hole-but that would only be the case if the loudspeakers on either "side" of the crossover point were flat in response and run at the same level.
This is RARELY the case. For the case in point (top and sub) most subs are louder in the end of their response than down at the bottom (so louder at 100-200Hz than at 40-50Hz).
AND most people run the subs hotter than the full range signals. So the ACOUSTICAL crossover (basically where the subs and tops meet) is going to be higher than either the low pass on the woofers or the highpass on the tops.
The same thing happens going from mids to HF devices-except the opposite way. Most HF drivers get really loud down towards the bottom end of their response. So that extra energy has to be "done away with", by crossing over higher-so the ACOUSTICAL output is now more even.
Now sometimes this "excess energy" is delt with by using EQ, other times by shifting crossover points-it really depends on the particular situation and the final phase/amplitude result desired. Sometimes one approach is better than another-it depends.
So if there is a "hole" electrically", it will (in many cases) be filled in (acoustically) because the level of the sub is so much higher.
This is true of most loudspeakers.
The END result is what we are interested in (what our ears hear) not what the "numbers are".
I get asked all the time "where are the crossover points in a particular box". What does it matter-if you can't see it on a measured response or hear it-WHO CARES. Does it matter if the highs are crossed over at 500Hz or 2Khz or 8Kz? If you can't hear it-then it is of no concern-except that some people want to "judge" a design (that htey may not fully understand what is going on) based on some preconceived notion they may have-which in many cases are wrong.
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The SM80 really drops off below 100 Hz. I have the subs crossed around 90 Hz w/ 24dB/oct and the tops around 110 Hz with 12dB/oct, and don't really hear a hole at 100...I typically don't like a lot of excess energy at that frequency anyway.
Another comment on the low end response. It is a sealed box, so the rolloff is slower than a ported box. Also because it is a sealed box, the impedance is very high down on the bottom end of the response.
So you can apply a pretty good boost down around 100Hz without doing any damage to the loudspeaker. Electrically, because the impedance is high, you are sending a pretty high VOLTAGE to the driver-but not POWER. So very little heating is going on.
Physically-because the cabinet is sealed-the driver is not "flapping around" (due to the pressure of the cabinet), so no mechanical damage is being incured.
So in applications where you don't need a pounding sub-a boost on the low end will make the cabinet "full enough" range for most people.
Every design is a matter of compromises. My basic idea behind the SM80 is that in cases where you need the high output capability of it-you will be using subs. And as such-the SM80 doesn't need to go down into the sub region. This helps keep the cabinet smaller and lighter-so it is very loud and easily mounts on a pole/stand.
The monitor version (SM80M) however does go quite a bit lower (a octave lower) and is a ported box (ported through the handles), because it was designed more as a full range product that stands alone.
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Good points which certainly makes sense. I imagine these play easily with the TH118's considering the TH118's freq. response. Are the SM80's pretty much plug and play (eq to taste) or is it advisable to analyze and adjust accordingly.(assuming Danley would recommend x-over points)
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Good points which certainly makes sense. I imagine these play easily with the TH118's considering the TH118's freq. response. Are the SM80's pretty much plug and play (eq to taste) or is it advisable to analyze and adjust accordingly.(assuming Danley would recommend x-over points)
In the first room we did, we had to pull a lot of 300 Hz out of the room for some reason. Other than that, it sounded very good with no processing outside except for the crossover HPF.
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In the first room we did, we had to pull a lot of 300 Hz out of the room for some reason. Other than that, it sounded very good with no processing outside except for the crossover HPF.
I look forward to hearing these.
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What is the throw distance? Any ideas what is reasonable to expect out of the box before fall off?
In the first room we did, we had to pull a lot of 300 Hz out of the room for some reason. Other than that, it sounded very good with no processing outside except for the crossover HPF.
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What is the throw distance? Any ideas what is reasonable to expect out of the box before fall off?
??? All boxes fall off at exactly the same rate. One of those pesky physics laws there is no way around.
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??? All boxes fall off at exactly the same rate. One of those pesky physics laws there is no way around.
Drat!!!! A good straight line like that and you beat me to it......
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??? All boxes fall off at exactly the same rate. One of those pesky physics laws there is no way around.
Along the lines of "how many people will that speaker cover"
In the case of the SM80-it will cover 1 person pretty well (if facing straight down). 2 people if they are close friends.
It is not the number of people-but rather the spacing of the people-AND how loud the program content is if the real question is "How many people could be in attendance and still hear good".
It is one thing to be doing jazz and another doing rock and roll. And are the people seated at round tables or standing close together?
The same speaker will give VERY different results.
Hence the need to PROPERLY DEFINE the needs. Loudness-distance-width etc. Distance and width are pretty easy-but getting a usable target SPL number is quite another. Is that number continuous-peak-what weighting? Is it realistic? Are we allowing "extra headroom" for the loudspeaker so it doesn't blow up?
What about the "sound quality SPL"? Just because a particular speaker can produce 130dB, does not mean that you can listen to-or would like the sound quality of it that loud. It might be that 125dB (or less) may be as loud as you would want to run it. So that number (that you won't find on any spec sheet) is the number for the calculation. And different people have a different idea of what is "usable".
Of course that is NOT the answer people want to hear. They typically want a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer.
Sorry-but that is just the way it is.
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Ivan's answer is too complex.
88.575'.
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12" coax @ 80 deg. should work very well as a single monitor cab.
Anyone tried it yet?
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12" coax @ 80 deg. should work very well as a single monitor cab.
Anyone tried it yet?
In post #16 Ivan mentions a bit about the SM80M.
There is also a picture on page two of this thread found elsewhere.
http://soundforums.net/varsity/5689-danley-demo-11-13-atlanta.html (http://soundforums.net/varsity/5689-danley-demo-11-13-atlanta.html)
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Ivan's answer is too complex.
88.575'.
OK now that we have a "simple answer" ;), exactly what does that measurement mean? Is it taken from directly in front of the speaker? Or at an angle to the center of the crowd? Are you measuring from the front of the grill or from the acoustical origon?
These things are very important-because we need to squeeze the people into the coverage area. I would hate for somebody to outside of the coverage distance.
Wink wink nod nod
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In post #16 Ivan mentions a bit about the SM80M.
There is also a picture on page two of this thread found elsewhere.
http://soundforums.net/varsity/5689-danley-demo-11-13-atlanta.html (http://soundforums.net/varsity/5689-danley-demo-11-13-atlanta.html)
So, has anyone tried it or the monitor version and how did it sound?
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So, has anyone tried it or the monitor version and how did it sound?
My experiences with it (a REAL pair of SM80's) are documented toward the front of the thread. It has performed excellently on the few occasions I have had it out so far, with great vocal intelligibility and relatively balanced pattern coverage. I have not needed to crank it up to its limits yet, but all my apps have been indoors to 200 people or less. If you have a specific question I will try to answer to the best of my knowledge.
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I am surprised very few have commented on these. An alternative to the SRX, QRX212, d&b Q7, in a lighter scaleable format with better SQ and can be run passive would create quite a stir?
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It's mostly because you can almost buy 2 srx cabinets for every 1 SM80. It is widely known that the srx is the most widely accepted BFH that can be sold to artists an promoters alike.
Sometimes it doesn't matter if the product is better. If it costs more, but is harder for me to sell, it doesn't do me much good. Which sucks, because I really liked the box.
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So how much does the SM80 go for? A five minute web search yielded no results. This shouldn't be a sensitive subject, I understand Danley insists its dealers charge a standardized price.
Thanks
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MSRP is $2999 - I'm pretty sure Mike has also mentioned this on here when it was released?
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I understand Danley insists its dealers charge a standardized price.
That used to be the case-but that was done away with awhile back.
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Here is a link to a video of part of the Atlanta WFX I shot with a stereo mic. I have a few more Danley products on other vids on my YouTube page.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkgLcDaml2s
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Here is a link to a video of part of the Atlanta WFX I shot with a stereo mic. I have a few more Danley products on other vids on my YouTube page.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkgLcDaml2s
Thanks Wayne, These Dnley Products certainly have a "dynamic" about them. They sound so open and detailed even thru my Bose laptop speakers.
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Thanks Wayne, These Dnley Products certainly have a "dynamic" about them. They sound so open and detailed even thru my Bose laptop speakers.
Try using headphones-it makes a big difference.
The whole idea is a SINGLE source of sound. Whenever you have multiple arrivals-you get a "smearing" effect.
This is most noticeable in speech and percussive sounds or instruments with lots of harmonics.
The attack of drums-the overtones of trumpets-the "click" of the piano keys and so forth are things to listen for.
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So how much does the SM80 go for? A five minute web search yielded no results. This shouldn't be a sensitive subject, I understand Danley insists its dealers charge a standardized price.
Thanks
Which would be illegal. You can insist on a minimum *advertised* price (MAP), but you can't insist on an absolute minimum price.
OTOH, if you're selling a boutique brand like Danley (i.e., you're not pushing a ton of boxes out the door every month), there generally is no financial incentive to steeply discount the units.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
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Which would be illegal. You can insist on a minimum *advertised* price (MAP), but you can't insist on an absolute minimum price.
OTOH, if you're selling a boutique brand like Danley (i.e., you're not pushing a ton of boxes out the door every month), there generally is no financial incentive to steeply discount the units.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
While I'm not a lawyer, I have observed that it apparently is possible to insist on a final sales price. My beloved Festool power tools are this way, my Canon cameras and lenses are this way, and I suspect other things. I've heard from dealers of these brands that if they sell for less than the designated price, they will almost certainly lose their dealership agreement.
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While I'm not a lawyer, I have observed that it apparently is possible to insist on a final sales price. My beloved Festool power tools are this way, my Canon cameras and lenses are this way, and I suspect other things. I've heard from dealers of these brands that if they sell for less than the designated price, they will almost certainly lose their dealership agreement.
Sounds like a good argument to convince customers to pay full MAP.
I see some brands (typically not audio) that seem pretty effective at managing their street price. The race to the bottom (for price and therefore profit) is one thing that discourages me from using distribution, I don't have the muscle or attention span to keep all the puppies in the pen. Dealers can be pretty self destructive about margins, while eroding the street price of some random SKU does not typically threaten their entire business and can buy them customers in the short term.
JR
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While I'm not a lawyer, I have observed that it apparently is possible to insist on a final sales price. My beloved Festool power tools are this way, my Canon cameras and lenses are this way, and I suspect other things. I've heard from dealers of these brands that if they sell for less than the designated price, they will almost certainly lose their dealership agreement.
Dealers can sell for any price they want (even lose money if they like, look at Amazon with ebook pricing as an example). The manufacturer cannot prevent them from self-destructing. Many manufacturers have tried and have wound up getting sued by the (US) Government for doing this. However, the manufacturers do own the rights to their name and image; so they can insist that if you advertise their products, you can only use their names if you agree to a MAP (minimum advertised price). This has been upheld. It's why you oft-times see "Call for Best Price" or "Too low to advertise" in ads.
Manufacturers have tried things like delayed shipping and pulling dealerships from people who don't fall into line. Such tactics have often turned out to be an expensive mistake on the manufacturer's part once the lawsuits were all settled.
That said, I still can't imagine anyone heavily discounting boutique brands like Danley. There isn't enough volume to justify taking at hit on the profit margin. While I'm sure you can talk a dealer who is a friend of your's down a few bucks, at the end of the day that dealer either needs to ship a lot of product at a small margin or a small amount of product at a large margin to stay in business. I'd prefer my dealer stay in business so I have place to take the speakers when they wind up with blown drivers...
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
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Dealers can sell for any price they want (even lose money if they like, look at Amazon with ebook pricing as an example). The manufacturer cannot prevent them from self-destructing. Many manufacturers have tried and have wound up getting sued by the (US) Government for doing this. However, the manufacturers do own the rights to their name and image; so they can insist that if you advertise their products, you can only use their names if you agree to a MAP (minimum advertised price). This has been upheld. It's why you oft-times see "Call for Best Price" or "Too low to advertise" in ads.
Manufacturers have tried things like delayed shipping and pulling dealerships from people who don't fall into line. Such tactics have often turned out to be an expensive mistake on the manufacturer's part once the lawsuits were all settled.
That said, I still can't imagine anyone heavily discounting boutique brands like Danley. There isn't enough volume to justify taking at hit on the profit margin. While I'm sure you can talk a dealer who is a friend of your's down a few bucks, at the end of the day that dealer either needs to ship a lot of product at a small margin or a small amount of product at a large margin to stay in business. I'd prefer my dealer stay in business so I have place to take the speakers when they wind up with blown drivers...
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
During my stint at Peavey I experienced a lot of hard to understand behavior from dealers. However it is the nature of competition and free markets to squeeze inefficiency out of distribution channels (goodbye small dealers). The use of the internet to communicate up to minute changing prices eroded prices even faster.
The next trend is situational per customer pricing where web sellers use information they can glean about the buyer to offer good enough but still profitable pricing. It is a slippery slope I avoid for now, and don't miss.
JR
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While I'm not a lawyer, I have observed that it apparently is possible to insist on a final sales price. My beloved Festool power tools are this way, my Canon cameras and lenses are this way, and I suspect other things. I've heard from dealers of these brands that if they sell for less than the designated price, they will almost certainly lose their dealership agreement.
Vertical price restraints are no longer by definition illegal but instead subject to the rule of reason since 2007. See the controlling precedent here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leegin_Creative_Leather_Products,_Inc._v._PSKS,_Inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leegin_Creative_Leather_Products,_Inc._v._PSKS,_Inc.) Lots of case law since 2007 indicates the courts are perfectly willing to allow vertical price restraint even absolute restraint in many situatiuons.
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