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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Lee Wright on September 16, 2021, 06:11:21 AM
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I run a couple of small production businesses in Australia. We do pub bands, corporate, weddings, outdoor community events etc. As a country we've been really sheltered from COVID & I'd say we're about 4-6 months behind the U.S. It looks like we'll be coming out of lockdown in October. Do any operators have any tips so I can be prepared? For example:
-What challenges did you face getting back into business?
-Have the type of jobs changed?
-Are event organisers hesitant to start running events?
-Have you & your staff suffered from COVID?
-Have outdoor events been more popular?
At the beginning of the pandemic I thought it would all be over in 18 months but I expect we're going to be living with this for a couple of years yet at least.
I was thinking of spending about $10K on gear to diversify what I do. For example getting some wedding lighting gear, inflatable screen for back yard parties & maybe a 20x20ft marquee (I already do a bit of event hire). I'm a bit reluctant to spend the money when I'm not sure how much work will be coming in. I was talking to a event hire guy in Canada who said they've had their busiest summer ever so hopefully that's a good sign for the audio business too.
Anyway appreciate any ideas.
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I run a couple of small production businesses in Australia. We do pub bands, corporate, weddings, outdoor community events etc. As a country we've been really sheltered from COVID & I'd say we're about 4-6 months behind the U.S. It looks like we'll be coming out of lockdown in October. Do any operators have any tips so I can be prepared? For example:
-What challenges did you face getting back into business?
-Have the type of jobs changed?
-Are event organisers hesitant to start running events?
-Have you & your staff suffered from COVID?
-Have outdoor events been more popular?
At the beginning of the pandemic I thought it would all be over in 18 months but I expect we're going to be living with this for a couple of years yet at least.
I was thinking of spending about $10K on gear to diversify what I do. For example getting some wedding lighting gear, inflatable screen for back yard parties & maybe a 20x20ft marquee (I already do a bit of event hire). I'm a bit reluctant to spend the money when I'm not sure how much work will be coming in. I was talking to a event hire guy in Canada who said they've had their busiest summer ever so hopefully that's a good sign for the audio business too.
Anyway appreciate any ideas.
What I found in my area (RI/MA usa) far as weddings go, as we were (are?) in/out of restrictions many weddings that were to take place indoors (event halls, etc.) ended up taking place outdoors at private homes thus caterers, tent rentals, chairs/tables (anything else to do with remote weddings) made a killing.....and are still doing so... My classical ensemble ended up with quite a few last minute weddings...
Last fall in RI the limit for gatherings was capped at 50ppl. My math grades in school were just ok but it sure looked to be a tad more than 50 in attendance at most of them...
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My Advice? get non-refundable deposits. Summer was crazy busy for me, then things started getting cancelled again. Be prepared to be adaptable.
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What I found in my area (RI/MA usa) far as weddings go, as we were (are?) in/out of restrictions many weddings that were to take place indoors (event halls, etc.) ended up taking place outdoors at private homes thus caterers, tent rentals, chairs/tables (anything else to do with remote weddings) made a killing.....and are still doing so... My classical ensemble ended up with quite a few last minute weddings...
Last fall in RI the limit for gatherings was capped at 50ppl. My math grades in school were just ok but it sure looked to be a tad more than 50 in attendance at most of them...
Yes outdoors makes sense. It gives organisers a lot more flexibility if things change & is also safer from a COVID view. That suits us well as we do a bunch our battery powered speakers which are popular with our back yard weddings. If last minute bookings are a thing then we might need to have some staff lined up. Thanks.
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Yes outdoors makes sense. It gives organisers a lot more flexibility if things change & is also safer from a COVID view. That suits us well as we do a bunch our battery powered speakers which are popular with our back yard weddings. If last minute bookings are a thing then we might need to have some staff lined up. Thanks.
Yes good point. I've been offering people free postponements up to 6 months. That really got me out of a bind early last year as I would have had to refund a lot money.
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I run a couple of small production businesses in Australia. We do pub bands, corporate, weddings, outdoor community events etc...
I can answer with direct experience at the club (pub) level. Be prepared for the upside and then some. Business just exploded when restrictions were lifted, with packed clubs the norm. Drinking people largely do not care about the risks involved, and many club owners do not either. Masking and capacity limits were largely ignored.
Have you & your staff suffered from COVID?
Not me, but a club I'm involved with had five bar staff hit at the same time, and had to close - and on one of the busiest weeks of the summer season for my area. All were under 30, unvaccinated. Four had mild cold-like cases. One ended up in ICU, but was back at work in two weeks.
We had a few community events cancelled in the area once positive numbers started rising late summer. I wasn't involved in any of them so don't know the details. But at that level people get more responsible, so be prepared.
Just reading about an anti-lockdown riot in Melbourne on Sept. 18th... wow! I hope you come out of this in one piece!
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/18/australia/australia-lockdown-protest-intl/index.html
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I can answer with direct experience at the club (pub) level. Be prepared for the upside and then some. Business just exploded when restrictions were lifted, with packed clubs the norm. Drinking people largely do not care about the risks involved, and many club owners do not either. Masking and capacity limits were largely ignored.
Not me, but a club I'm involved with had five bar staff hit at the same time, and had to close - and on one of the busiest weeks of the summer season for my area. All were under 30, unvaccinated. Four had mild cold-like cases. One ended up in ICU, but was back at work in two weeks.
I don't know whether to be happy or sad about that. It's nice to get the work but if people are just going to throw caution to the wind & end up in danger I'm not so keen. When you come to think of it, it does make logical sense that people that hang out at pubs are probably less risk averse when it come to health regardless of COVID.
We had a few community events cancelled in the area once positive numbers started rising late summer. I wasn't involved in any of them so don't know the details. But at that level people get more responsible, so be prepared.
Just reading about an anti-lockdown riot in Melbourne on Sept. 18th... wow! I hope you come out of this in one piece!
Yes we like the community events. Will prepare for cancellations.
I'm surprised the riots even made the the news over there. My main business in Sydney which was pretty quiet.
Thanks for the info.
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Hi Lee!
Let me give you some thoughts from a freelance tech perspective.
I've been working freelance in Austria/Europe for 20 years when the pandemic hit us. I was working a lot of different jobs, from high-level corporate to non-profit indie-rock and everything in between. But from one day to another I didn't have any work, because all the events I was already booked for were being cancelled. I did not get any compensation from the venues or the event providers that booked me for their jobs. In ALL cases, I didn't even get a call informing me of the cancellation, apologizing or discussing how to go about the lost work.
With most of these companies and venues I had a very long relationship of working together. For all these years I was always striving to do the best job I could for them, being available for their calls even if it meant rearranging my personal life around them and representing them in the best way when interacting with their customers. I was a (small) part in their business success and I have always been loyal to them. None of this mattered, when the lockdowns took away our businesses. In a way I can understand this, given the magnitude of the experience and the uncertainty all of us faced back then. And I never mentioned my feelings to any of them or reminded them that strictly speaking, they didn't honour our contracts back then.
But after a while, when financial support from the state was established and everybody got to start doing maintenance work on their equipment, live-streaming events, theatre rehearsals, later on hybrid events, outdoor shows etc. business slowly started up again, but very slowly and apparently only for a few techs that were busy, while me and many of my collegues still had no or very little work at all. That was very frustrating when I saw, how little awareness there was for me and all the others that were still out of work.
Right now everything is back to normal or even more busy than before. I have more job calls than I can take, so I have to decide which ones to decline. And I still remember the companies that had work during the lockdowns but didn't call me. Call it silly, but not everyone I worked for before the pandemic is getting me back for their jobs now. Not because they have done something wrong, just because they have done nothing at all, shown no loyalty, no appreciation for the past years of my good work or any emotion towards my current situation at all.
So, take care of your freelancers, get them in doing maintenance work or work the occasional job. At least call them, show them you care about them and ask how they are doing. Make sure, they are available and still willing to work for you when you need them.
Best regards,
Thomas
PS: Here in Austria, October is the month when it's getting colder and our vaccination rate is much too low right now. I give us another 10 days or 2 weeks until the next lockdown...
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Thanks Thomas.
I've been fortunate in that I haven't had any regular contractors to let go.
Good to see at least you got enough work.
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I carry a different attitude and perspective about the whole covid thing and how it has impacted me and my career. First, it is busy as hell right now, so it is obvious that a large number of people give zero crap about covid. The ones I get angry about are the ones that require masks and negative or vaccine cards at their event for all staff..... My thought is this: If you are so scared, worried, and or proactive against/for covid, then what in the hell are you throwing a party for? And if so why are you requiring a whole crew to heed to your wishes in order to add security to your indiscretions? Refer to point A...
I myself am not vaccinated, will not get vaccinated, and truly don't care whether you finally get to throw that party you have been waiting two years to do. In my area, it is pretty hard to find a crew of vaccinated individuals who are well trained in our craft. We can't find enough people to work as it is, so one less party won't kill us. As to what we have had to do in order to keep the wheels rolling, well, we just keep putting out help wanted ads and trying as hard as we can to keep up with the number of jobs we have coming in. We wear masks when we are indoors as required, we keep our distance from people as much as we can and more or less, do as we have always done, just with not nearly enough staff to do it.
Our policies have changed. We increased our minimum to weed out small, low-profit margin jobs. We require a non-refundable 50% deposit and full payment 30 days in advance of the event. We schedule our setups and strikes to be separated from other vendors to reduce contact and clutter. We advise our clients that there are still rules relating to covid and that the industry as a whole is still recovering and adapting to them. We tell them we have to limit changes because we may not be able to get a certain product in time, that we need to staff well in advance to meet certain desires and things are more expensive than they were two years ago.
My advice, only chew what you can swallow, make sure you know your local rules relating to covid, and charge your clients appropriately. It is too busy right now to take everything that crosses your table, so cherry-pick your clients and maximize your profits while you can. Soon enough the market will be oversaturated with vendors again, so set yourself up to align with the higher markets. Don't overextend and certainly don't under-deliver simply get everything you can.
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I carry a different attitude and perspective about the whole covid thing and how it has impacted me and my career. First, it is busy as hell right now, so it is obvious that a large number of people give zero crap about covid. The ones I get angry about are the ones that require masks and negative or vaccine cards at their event for all staff..... My thought is this: If you are so scared, worried, and or proactive against/for covid, then what in the hell are you throwing a party for? And if so why are you requiring a whole crew to heed to your wishes in order to add security to your indiscretions? Refer to point A...
I myself am not vaccinated, will not get vaccinated, and truly don't care whether you finally get to throw that party you have been waiting two years to do. In my area, it is pretty hard to find a crew of vaccinated individuals who are well trained in our craft. We can't find enough people to work as it is, so one less party won't kill us. As to what we have had to do in order to keep the wheels rolling, well, we just keep putting out help wanted ads and trying as hard as we can to keep up with the number of jobs we have coming in. We wear masks when we are indoors as required, we keep our distance from people as much as we can and more or less, do as we have always done, just with not nearly enough staff to do it.
Our policies have changed. We increased our minimum to weed out small, low-profit margin jobs. We require a non-refundable 50% deposit and full payment 30 days in advance of the event. We schedule our setups and strikes to be separated from other vendors to reduce contact and clutter. We advise our clients that there are still rules relating to covid and that the industry as a whole is still recovering and adapting to them. We tell them we have to limit changes because we may not be able to get a certain product in time, that we need to staff well in advance to meet certain desires and things are more expensive than they were two years ago.
My advice, only chew what you can swallow, make sure you know your local rules relating to covid, and charge your clients appropriately. It is too busy right now to take everything that crosses your table, so cherry-pick your clients and maximize your profits while you can. Soon enough the market will be oversaturated with vendors again, so set yourself up to align with the higher markets. Don't overextend and certainly don't under-deliver simply get everything you can.
I strongly suggest you view this "I'm not gonna do..." through the eyes of OSHA. It's up to the employer to provide a safe and healthful workplace.
My crew is 100% vaccinated as it's the way get work. We comply with (or will implement our own) Covid 19 policies set by artists or clients. And in spite of all that, an ARTIST likely exposed other performers and part of my crew last week.
Covid is not a trifling matter simply because you are not likely to die (statistically speaking). Having long term Covid - the brain fog, especially - makes running a show or a business much harder.
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Speaking for my specific area, going for the higher end means corporate, university, and big churches. Around here that means they're very serious about COVID, so everybody is vaccinated. I do agree that it's silly that they're putting on big events, though. But then a lot of local venues are getting pretty hard about requiring proof of vaccine too.
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I strongly suggest you view this "I'm not gonna do..." through the eyes of OSHA. It's up to the employer to provide a safe and healthful workplace.
My crew is 100% vaccinated as it's the way get work. We comply with (or will implement our own) Covid 19 policies set by artists or clients. And in spite of all that, an ARTIST likely exposed other performers and part of my crew last week.
Covid is not a trifling matter simply because you are not likely to die (statistically speaking). Having long term Covid - the brain fog, especially - makes running a show or a business much harder.
I am curious (honestly, I am) how vaccination affects long term Covid and effects like brain fog?
A personal anecdote, for what it is worth. Two weeks ago, my son had been sick and started feeling better, so last Monday I went over to work on his tractor. For 45 minutes to an hour we worked huddled over his hydraulic assembly working together to try and get it working right. About an hour after I left, he texted saying he had lost his sense of taste and smell. I am not vaccinated, but I took precautions and informed my employer and he got tested the next day. Unsurprisingly, he tested positive. On the advice of healthcare pro's I waited 5 days to be tested-with both a quick test and a PCR test coming back negative. There are things I have done over the last year on the advice of my doctor that are tried and true for all coronavirus infections, so my experience obviously would not be the expected normal outcome for everyone.
I'm not advocating anything, other than can we be less fearful? And if you're concerned, by all means get vaccinated, if you feel it is the best thing for you. If you are sick/showing symptoms perhaps the show must go on-but let it go on without you and make sure you have a backup plan in place so that can happen. I am fortunate in my day job that a fair percentage of my responsibilities can be done remotely-and even for my church duties, I managed to coach others through that remotely even though we had an outdoor groundbreaking service and outdoor/remote services is something I usually handle myself. We've never had better tools to allow us to be considerate and isolate than we do today.
Even with 100% vaccination, this isn't going away. We need to learn how to deal with this smartly. The group on here has learned to overcome some pretty challenging obstacles in AV production.
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Even with 100% vaccination, this isn't going away.
You sure about that? When was last time you heard of a Polio or Smallpox outbreak?
It may not go away but it probably has a good chance of being eradicated with 100% vaccination rate. But that's not going to happen.
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I strongly suggest you view this "I'm not gonna do..." through the eyes of OSHA. It's up to the employer to provide a safe and healthful workplace.
My crew is 100% vaccinated as it's the way get work. We comply with (or will implement our own) Covid 19 policies set by artists or clients. And in spite of all that, an ARTIST likely exposed other performers and part of my crew last week.
Covid is not a trifling matter simply because you are not likely to die (statistically speaking). Having long term Covid - the brain fog, especially - makes running a show or a business much harder.
Yeah as business owners we have a big responsibility to any staff & our community to minimize risk. Myself & the other main tech are both double vaxed & we plan to only take on extra contractors that are as well. I really wonder once the dust settles whether there will be law suits around people with long term COVID effects especially since the path of infection can be genomically traced.
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Speaking for my specific area, going for the higher end means corporate, university, and big churches. Around here that means they're very serious about COVID, so everybody is vaccinated. I do agree that it's silly that they're putting on big events, though. But then a lot of local venues are getting pretty hard about requiring proof of vaccine too.
Good point. We might need to consider if there's some type of events or venues that we don't take on such as private parties.
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You sure about that? When was last time you heard of a Polio or Smallpox outbreak?
It may not go away but it probably has a good chance of being eradicated with 100% vaccination rate. But that's not going to happen.
Yes unfortunately I think low vax rates are going to ensure that this is the new normal.
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A personal anecdote, for what it is worth.
This is a problem that needs to be addressed with statistics, not anecdotes. The trouble is that most people think in personal stories, while statistics is a college-level course. Most Americans won't get sick, most Americans won't die. And yet more than half a million Americans are already dead.
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Last Thursday our local hospital entered “crisis care” status. Staff have been given permission to triage care and limited resources to those most likely to survive. The morgue is full so there is now a freezer truck in the parking lot. The nearest hospitals (100-200miles away) are essentially in the same condition and cannot take patients. If you qualify for vaccination but choose not to that is certainly your right but along with rights come responsibilities. In the admittedly unlikely chance you get very sick from COVID please have the decency to die at home and not take critical resources away from those that are doing everything they can to preserve the public healthcare system.
On the business side we just lost another national artist this week who refused to play if we can’t at least require vaccinations to attend. I think that’s six this month. It’s looking like another very bleak winter coming up. I’m retired. Sound is my hobby but for the venue owner, employees, touring artists, and many of you on this forum this is your livelihood. I feel very sad.
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Let me put it this way, and I am not trying to make this a political, religious, or even a personal thing against anyone here or elsewhere. I am all about free choice. OSHA has already balked at Covid rules, going so far as to say that if vaccination is a requirement from an employer, the company could then be legally responsible for any ill outcomes related to the vaccination... They still won't grant Biden his sweeping mandate ( yet ), so there is that too.
My big thing about it is that I have had some BAD reactions in the past few years to prescriptions and even a particular over-the-counter drug. To keep it PG let's just say that the reaction is one that I wouldn't wish upon the person I hate the most in my life. It took three reactions to finally figure out what was causing the symptoms and each reaction was significantly worse than the previous. I am in ZERO hurry to try and find another drug to have a fixed drug eruption to. That is my personal reason. Beyond that, I am also in the camp of this being a BS social experiment. That is beside the point.
I say it, but it often is poo-pooed, but if the Govt truly cared about you and your health, cigarettes and alcohol would be illegal. Smoking alone is said to cause 480,000 deaths per year, of which 41,000 are from secondhand smoke. Let's not get into alcohol-related deaths ( cough 95,000 yearly )... Just between those two, there are half a million deaths per year, EVERY YEAR. There sure doesn't seem to be much ado about it though. So, I am apathetic to the whole Covid mandates and regulations. This WILL be a part of our life forever, just like the FLU, the cold, and other ailments. It will just get to a point where it is not as lethal or as worrisome. We will build natural immunity and I am pretty sure that with 70+% of Americans vaccinated now, that herd immunity is there, we are still just dealing with the butt end of those who were going to die anyway.
It sucks, it's not fair and I do feel bad for those who have suffered a loss, I am not the disease though. I didn't cause it, I didn't spread it, I didn't get it ( yet ) and I have not been sick in any way in over two years now!!!! I respect the rules for those who are around me, by keeping my distance, wearing a mask, and minding my hands, I just don't have any remorse for telling a client tough shit, if you want to throw a party right now, it's at your own risk, don't expect me to bend over for you. You don't want to get sick, then don't throw a party, too bad so sad. A client that is realistic and says optional, or respectful of, I'm on board 110%.
I am so busy right now, I could care less if I got another call tomorrow, I need another break. It's been stupid crazy. And the only time I am resentful of my work is when I have a client that is all about vaccines, negative tests, and masks 100% of the time. I would rather sit at home and make nothing. I work six days a week many 12+ hours a day, so yeah, I could use fewer clients right now. Covid mandates and regulations are a joke and anyone who does a large event and touts the covid safe crap is just doing it for face, not because they actually care, if they did they wouldn't throw the event. There may be a few companies that have jumped on the 100% vaccinated wagon, I only hope they don't have the pleasure of dealing with legal recourse when employees get sick or worse.
I know perhaps a dozen people in my inner circle who has been vaccinated, one of them has had a bad reaction. Seizures!!! He said his first visit to the doctor's office after having a seizure was crazy, he had a dozen of them standing around him asking questions, taking samples and notes. 100% because of the vaccine he got ( I can't remember which ). He says the seizures have subsided though, but can't drive to work due to them and the drugs he is on for them... The concerns are real on both sides of the argument.
So coming from a company that doesn't require vaccinations and is busier than they have ever been before, I only say that you have the choice to play the game or not. The people have spoken, the majority don't truly care. It's all a game of face. If they really want your services, the client will bend to your needs. Stop being a YES industry, WE NEED TO START SAYING NO MORE OFTEN. I said it years ago, we say yes too much. Choose your clients, don't let them choose you. Amid a pandemic, the company I work for is having a record year and doing it with 1/2 the number of employees it had in past years. We RESPECT the client's wishes and needs as best as we can, but we DO NOT give them the moon. If you think your company is successful because you are saying yes, you are wrong, it's because you have a service of value. You will get push back from saying no, but you won't lose a client that will make or break your company, you will just open the door for a better client to come in. For me, it isn't about the money, I have to enjoy and live with myself making the money I do. I will let clients go that don't align with my goals and I will cultivate the hell out of the ones that do, even if they provide me with less profit. When I stopped saying no to money and yes to clients that I truly value and who value me, I enjoyed the money I made SO MUCH MORE! All I can say is play by the rules, have standards and values, and the rest will sort itself out.
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Coincidence is not causality, but it's why there is a 100% vaccine monitoring program for ALL vaccines, not just for SARS-CoV-2 vaccines.
"The government" doesn't care about your personal health choices that have no direct effect on others - not contagious, etc. You can quietly drink / smoke yourself to death without putting alcohol or tobacco into the bodies of others (not addressing 2nd hand smoke here, just that you can commit suicide on the installment plan without putting the poison into others). The government also doesn't care because: the alcohol and tobacco lobbyists have bought and paid for the preferential treatment their poisons receive (same for the petro-chemical industry, others).
I will further say you don't know jack shit are insufficiently familiar with/about Covid protocols for public events and how/why they are implemented. That people deliberately circumvent or ignore them dilutes the effectiveness of the policies and procedures; it does not invalidate them.
And finally, you need to read and understand the establishment part of the Occupational Health and Safety Act and the wide range of authority that OSHA has. Whether you agree or not, YOU, as an employer, are obligated to provide a safe and healthful workplace, and your failure to do so opens you to investigations from worker complaints.
edit ps: <3000 people died directly from the attacks of 9/11/01. "We", as a nation, got very indignant and ever so cross - essentially engaging a 20+ year war that continues to this day. SARS-CoV-2 has killed 200x that number of people and injured at least as many with long term illness. "We" gave away privacy and personal freedoms with the Patriot Act and its kin, but act like taking a vaccine requires Abrahamic sacrifice.
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I work for an artist that works both sides of the Canada/US border.
We have crossed four times in the last month and done 5 US shows (festivals and corporates for companies you've heard of)
Everyone in the touring party is double vaccinated and tested going both ways. Fully masked in the cab, at the airport, on the plane, at the gig. Artist touch items are wiped down regularly (yes I know chances are slim, but who wants to be the person who didn't follow the protocols).
That's just how it has to be to keep everyone as safe as possible, and meet all the travel/show protocols so that we can finally get back to work.
We would not be very enthused about a local production company who told us that no one on their crew was vaccinated. Just saying.
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My Wife and I got our 3rd Moderna shots yesterday.
Me for my transplant, the Wife for some of the drugs she's on for severe asthma and COPD.
As far as I'm concerned, unless EVERYONE is protected, none of us are protected.
Forget this "Herd Immunity" BS.
NO ONE is "immune" from Covid.
Protected, yes. Immune, no.
Up here in the land of the French, testing positivity is around 2.5%
i drive by a testing clinic every day on the way home from work. The line-up is always "impressive"
It scares me that so many people *think* they might have contracted the virus.
Chris.
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My Wife and I got our 3rd Moderna shots yesterday.
Good to hear. I'm getting my 3rd on Monday. For some reason, I'm not feeling that the 2 shots I have will keep me out of the hospital since I got them back in May. I'll feel better after the 3rd.
Wondering if this will be like the flu vaccine? Variants of Covid may need booster shots every year or 2.
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Good to hear. I'm getting my 3rd on Monday. For some reason, I'm not feeling that the 2 shots I have will keep me out of the hospital since I got them back in May. I'll feel better after the 3rd.
Wondering if this will be like the flu vaccine? Variants of Covid may need booster shots every year or 2.
Not really a booster shot for the flu, rather just trying to keep up with different versions and mutations.
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This is a problem that needs to be addressed with statistics, not anecdotes. The trouble is that most people think in personal stories, while statistics is a college-level course. Most Americans won't get sick, most Americans won't die. And yet more than half a million Americans are already dead.
Yes there are more advanced stats in college but high school maths is good enough if people actually took the time to actually do them (I was an accountant in a previous life). I will say though that simple stats like the number of deaths don't always convey the full impact. Was it someone who was on their last stage of their life anyway with underlying conditions or a fit young father that leaves behind a wife & 3 young kids? Some of the stories are just heartbreaking & feel often senseless.
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Last Thursday our local hospital entered “crisis care” status. Staff have been given permission to triage care and limited resources to those most likely to survive. The morgue is full so there is now a freezer truck in the parking lot. The nearest hospitals (100-200miles away) are essentially in the same condition and cannot take patients. If you qualify for vaccination but choose not to that is certainly your right but along with rights come responsibilities. In the admittedly unlikely chance you get very sick from COVID please have the decency to die at home and not take critical resources away from those that are doing everything they can to preserve the public healthcare system.
Yep people talk about personal choice when it comes to vaccines but forget about the impact it has on others if they get sick. I think there's a huge number of medical staff suffering long term with PTSD.
On the business side we just lost another national artist this week who refused to play if we can’t at least require vaccinations to attend. I think that’s six this month. It’s looking like another very bleak winter coming up. I’m retired. Sound is my hobby but for the venue owner, employees, touring artists, and many of you on this forum this is your livelihood. I feel very sad.
I suspect clients that are concerned about COVID OHAS might actually be better clients to work for in general.
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Coincidence is not causality, but it's why there is a 100% vaccine monitoring program for ALL vaccines, not just for SARS-CoV-2 vaccines.
Yes I'm surprised how readily people assign a cause to events.
"The government" doesn't care about your personal health choices that have no direct effect on others - not contagious, etc. You can quietly drink / smoke yourself to death without putting alcohol or tobacco into the bodies of others (not addressing 2nd hand smoke here, just that you can commit suicide on the installment plan without putting the poison into others). The government also doesn't care because: the alcohol and tobacco lobbyists have bought and paid for the preferential treatment their poisons receive (same for the petro-chemical industry, others).
Yes you don't catch alcoholism from sitting next to someone on a bus.
I will further say you don't know jack shit are insufficiently familiar with/about Covid protocols for public events and how/why they are implemented. That people deliberately circumvent or ignore them dilutes the effectiveness of the policies and procedures; it does not invalidate them.
And finally, you need to read and understand the establishment part of the Occupational Health and Safety Act and the wide range of authority that OSHA has. Whether you agree or not, YOU, as an employer, are obligated to provide a safe and healthful workplace, and your failure to do so opens you to investigations from worker complaints.
Yes as I say. I think there will eventually be law suits on this.
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I work for an artist that works both sides of the Canada/US border.
We have crossed four times in the last month and done 5 US shows (festivals and corporates for companies you've heard of)
Everyone in the touring party is double vaccinated and tested going both ways. Fully masked in the cab, at the airport, on the plane, at the gig. Artist touch items are wiped down regularly (yes I know chances are slim, but who wants to be the person who didn't follow the protocols).
That's just how it has to be to keep everyone as safe as possible, and meet all the travel/show protocols so that we can finally get back to work.
We would not be very enthused about a local production company who told us that no one on their crew was vaccinated. Just saying.
Good to hear your part of a team that takes this seriously.
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Thanks for everyone's input on this. I suspect then that we are going to get super busy over the next few months as we come out of lockdown & into our regular peak season (Oct-Dec) here in the southern hemisphere. Also it seems like staffing might be an issue.
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Good to hear. I'm getting my 3rd on Monday. For some reason, I'm not feeling that the 2 shots I have will keep me out of the hospital since I got them back in May. I'll feel better after the 3rd.
Wondering if this will be like the flu vaccine? Variants of Covid may need booster shots every year or 2.
Yet earlier you compared to polio and smallpox for eradication. The polio vaccine is 99% effective and lasts a lifetime. Smallpox might be a closer parallel-it was 95% effective, but efficacy waned after 3-5 years. The prospect of mandatory annual booster shots for everyone surely has some pharma execs drooling.
I struggle with the concept "unless everyone is protected, none of us are protected". Does the vaccine work or not?
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I struggle with the concept "unless everyone is protected, none of us are protected". Does the vaccine work or not?
Yes, the vaccine does what it is supposed to.
Be clear, you are NOT immune.
A vaccinated HEALTHY adult will stay out of ICU, and possibly out of hospital when infected.
That is the "promise". Not that you won't catch the virus, just that the virus shouldn't kill you.
Most fully vaccinated that catch it end up with flu-like symptoms for a few days. They will be able to transmit to others.
Immunicomprimised (me) and others with health issues will possibly end up in hospital, hopefully not ICU, but that is not guaranteed.
Please, just get the damn shots. Yearly innuculations WILL be needed to adapt to new variants and the fall-off of protection that seems to be happening.
This is a changing situation, and we all have to adapt our lifestyle to be as safe as we can. Protect ourselves, and those around us. Ultimately it is a chain, and you know what they say about the weakest link.....
Chris.
Just keep your freakin distance. Thanks.
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I am going to attempt to carefully wade into the water here. These discussions, both here and on another non-audio board I follow, tend to sometimes deteriorate into angry posturing and hurled insults, then the moderator locks it.
First, I am fully vaccinated with Moderna. Got my first shot the second day after I was eligible in my state (that was the earliest appointment I could get). Got my second shot 28 days to the day after the first. Had the very mildest of side effects. Sore arm at the point on injection, and maybe just a half day of feeling not 100%. But really it amounted to nothing.
But I am against vaccine mandates and all the associated baggage, and here is why. Let's first list what seem to be commonly accepted facts about the vaccines (all of the vaccines):
- The vaccines prevent serious illness or hospitalization for the vast majority of recipients.
- The vaccines are not 100% effective at preventing disease, therefore you can still catch COVID-19 or one of the variants.
- The vaccines' effectiveness wanes over time. Seems Moderna is best in the category for now with the J&J vaccine being the worst (wanes the fastest). All of them look to require annual boosters to remain effective at warding off serious disease if/when you catch COVID-19.
- Vaccinated people can still catch and spread the virus, including variants. Vaccinated people can be asymptomatic carriers. In this regard they are not all that different from unvaccinated people. Perhaps they carry a smaller viral load, but that could very well be an individual thing dependent upon the immune system of the carrier.
- The COVID-19 virus is transmissible to animals, and it seems at least some animals get sick with it. The gorilla clan at the Atlanta Zoo was recently diagnosed with COVID-19, and the assumed transmission path was from a vaccinated zoo employee (animal handler). Here is a link to an NPR story about the event: https://www.npr.org/2021/09/14/1037164815/atlanta-gorillas-covid. The COVID-19 virus was originally postulated to have come from bats. On that point there is still debate, but that leaves open the real possibilty of COVID-19 being a zoonotic virus that has animal reservoirs. It obviously can spread to gorillas (one of our closer kin if you subscribe to Darwin)
So it seems to me, based on what I've found researching on the web, that the main benefit to getting vaccinated is keeping your personal butt out of the hospital. And there's a very good chance that vacccinated folks won't be dying of COVID-19. But you can still catch it and spread it. That is key to remember in this big debate. So this to me is where the "protect others, get vaccinated" argument begins to fail, and why I think mandates are bad policy.
I could perhaps get behind a mandate if a vaccine was 99.999% effective at preventing the disease, and the protection lasted for at least years (like some other vaccines). A vaccine that meets those two criteria has a very real chance of eradicating the disease it targets. But for a vaccine that is not doing that, I'm not sure what mandating it really accomplishes. Refer to the points I listed above. If you can still catch COVID-19, and you can be sick with it (albeit, likely not "go to the hospital or ICU sick"), and you can still spread it to others, then what exactly is the vaccine mandate going to do for everyone else (meaning besides your vaccination protecting you personally)?
Because the current COVID-19 vaccines do not seem to operate in the same class as polio, smallpox and similar "mandated" vaccines, that makes it harder to swallow the mandate for it in my view. And while I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I do have to say this "mandate" for COVID-19 vaccines and eternal annual boosters sure seems like a goldmine for the pharmaceutical companies.
I feel that the world is slowly coming to terms with the fact it is about time to rip off the bandaid with respect to COVID-19. According to recent news reports, even Australia is getting ready to "live with" some number of COVID cases. At first the mantra around the world was mask up, social distance, wash your hands, take the vaccine when released, and we can vanquish COVID-19. The reality that is slowly dawning is a bit different. Seems COVID-19 is not going to be eradicated. If vaccinated people can catch and spread it (including mutations), and if it has zoonotic reservoirs where it can continue to mutate, then it ain't going away. It will likely become less severe, but probably never be gone.
Instead of vaccine mandates, I think we should be concentrating research and money on treatment options for those that get sick enough to need hospitalization. I assume that is happening, but you sure don't hear as much about that as you do the daily fights over the mandates. I think we are wasting time, energy, and most important of all, our critical fabric of civil discourse arguing over mandating a vaccine that is really not effective at eradicating the disease it targets. People who were once friendly with each other have become mortal enemies over a damn vaccine. Is it really worth losing our humanity over a vaccine? Make it available, people that want it can take it. Those that don't want it are not forced to take it. It will all sort itself out in the end.
I truly do not see why forcing other people to be vaccinated helps me. I'm vaccinated, and so is my wife. We made that personal choice. But I am not terrifed to be around others that are not vaccinated. I'm vaccinated. I supposedly won't get seriously ill with COVID-19, so why do I care if the person sitting next to me is vaccinated or not? If he is unvaccinated, he should be the one worried about the illness. But that's his personal choice. I may not agree with his logic, but it's not my place to tell him what to do.
It really comes down to a very simple question. Do you trust the vaccine does what it says or not? If you trust that you won't get sick enough to need hospitalization or die by taking the vaccine and any required boosters on schedule, then why do you worry about the other guy? To me, if you are so worried about the other guy and worried about being around people who may have the infection, then perhaps deep down you do not really trust the vaccine after all. So why would you want to mandate something that you don't trust yourself?
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Extremely well said Bill.
My problem is that the UN-vaccinated are taking enormous time and resources out of an already fragile medical system.
Nurses and doctors are taking early retirements up here instead of all the forced overtime to keep these folks alive.
Staff is just plain burnt out. Operating rooms are shut, as that staff is "needed" for Covid patients.
Transplants at my local Sick Hotel stopped 2 months ago - again.
Exactly how many organs are being thrown out, and how many recipients will be too sick to accept a transplant when they start up again?
At least 100% vaccinated will get the emergency side of hospitals back to "hectic" instead of "panic"......
Chris.
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Extremely well said Bill.
My problem is that the UN-vaccinated are taking enormous time and resources out of an already fragile medical system.
Nurses and doctors are taking early retirements up here instead of all the forced overtime to keep these folks alive.
Staff is just plain burnt out. Operating rooms are shut, as that staff is "needed" for Covid patients.
Transplants at my local Sick Hotel stopped 2 months ago - again.
Exactly how many organs are being thrown out, and how many recipients will be too sick to accept a transplant when they start up again?
At least 100% vaccinated will get the emergency side of hospitals back to "hectic" instead of "panic"......
Chris.
This is really it. After "ripping off the bandaid" over the summer, my province is now about to be in a position of having to triage ICU resources based on likelihood of survival (the phrase "transitioning low-likelihood patients from ventilators to paliative care" has popped up in news articles). Basically all non-emergency surgeries (including some cancer treatments) have been indefinitely postponed. 95% of the COVID patients in ICU beds here were under-vaccinated when they were admitted.
So yes, my understanding of the Delta variant is that elimination isn't really likely; however, vaccinated individuals are still much less likely to become infected if exposed, are typically less contageous if infected, and are much, much less likely to require a substantial amount of finite healthcare capacity if they do get sick. My getting vaccinated does still play an important role in protecting others, even if it's not as straightforward and concrete as we had all hoped for, and mandating vaccines as a way of encouraging their uptake will be an important tool in a lot of places for ensuring the stability of the healthcare system (and, frankly, society).
-Russ
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Hey Russ, your province is in constant rotation in the news cycle out here...
I see "they" sacrificed the health minister. Why is the Premier not following him out the door?
Oh well, he had his stampede.
Just look at the cost.
I can't imagine any doctor having to say "You, we can save. You, sorry. No resources for you"
Stay Safe.
Chris.
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Norway is lifting most restrictions tomorrow (saturday 25.9.21) at 16.00 local time.
67% of the population is fully vaccinated, 76% has received the first dose.
This is used as THE argument for lifting restrictions.
I'm in favor of vaccines, lifting restrictions now that the most vulnerable has two doses and most of the adult population has received one dose or more seems reasonable to me.
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Two more bartenders down in the club I'm involved with - bringing the total to seven over the last several weeks. At least four security as well - don't know the exact number over there. All unvaccinated.
Delta is relentlessly going through the room and methodically picking the unvaccinated off. For those of you with unvaccinated crew members, be prepared with backup. We're now running a skeleton crew with primary bartenders pulling doubles.
The general manager and myself - we're vaccinated, and so far it's held even though we're around the same people generally. Fingers crossed... anything can happen. Now that boosters have been approved, I'm not taking any chances. I'm getting mine as soon as I get through this weekend.
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Yep people talk about personal choice when it comes to vaccines but forget about the impact it has on others if they get sick.
I don't think they 'forget', they willfully ignore.
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I wasn't going to say more-but I will say that the last three posts are encouraging from the standpoint that it is a well thought out discussion of the issues at hand. Conversations like this are more likely to move my hesitancy than arguments such as "case counts are going up and the unvaccinated are to blame"-when clearly, if vaccinated can get sick and transmit it can't be blamed on them entirely-and if vaccinated can carry and transmit, vaccination will never eradicate.
I am willing to be persuaded-but honest reasoned discussion is a better persuader than dramatic rhetoric such as unvaccinated are killing vaccinated.
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Extremely well said Bill.
My problem is that the UN-vaccinated are taking enormous time and resources out of an already fragile medical system.
Nurses and doctors are taking early retirements up here instead of all the forced overtime to keep these folks alive.
Staff is just plain burnt out. Operating rooms are shut, as that staff is "needed" for Covid patients.
Transplants at my local Sick Hotel stopped 2 months ago - again.
Exactly how many organs are being thrown out, and how many recipients will be too sick to accept a transplant when they start up again?
At least 100% vaccinated will get the emergency side of hospitals back to "hectic" instead of "panic"......
Chris.
I don't dispute that unvaccinated folks are using up medical resources, but I still am opposed to mandates. I live in Georgia (the southeastern US). As of yesterday my state is at 47% fully vaccinated and 54% with at least one dose. The county where I live is rural and poor compared to the metro areas. Our rates today are 37% fully vaccinated and 43% with one dose. So while we are not at the bottom of the heap, we are nowhere near the top in terms of fully vaccinated residents. We are just turning the corner on our third wave of infections and deaths in my county. Both numbers are now trending down rather sharply. This wave has taken a number of somewhat younger folks. And several of them did not have underlying medical conditions. One was a 27-year old engineer who worked at the nuclear plant I retired from. Another fellow whose obituary I saw in the local paper died at 41 and left a wife and children behind. From his picture in the paper, he appeared otherwise healthy. There have been a few others in their 40s and 50s who have died, but the vast majority of our 131 confirmed COVID-19 deaths have been the elderly (above 70). Our local hospital has been at capacity, and has sent several patients to other cities. In fact, reading the local obituaries this week showed at least three local deaths from COVID where the victim was in a metro hospital about 90 miles away when they died.
So how does this relate to mandates? I think we could do a better job of convincing folks to take the vaccine if we advertised information like I just shared. Making people think it's "their idea" works a lot better than mandating. If you have ever had a three-year old, what works better when trying to get them to do something they are not inclined to do -- demanding they do it from your base of authority, or turning the request either into some kind of game or fast-talking them to make them think it's their idea? The former method is going to be painful for you and the kid, while the latter results in a much happier memory for both. The same goes for adults and the vaccine mandates in my view. Don't mandate it, just talk up the benefits, and share accurate local results to help drive their decision.
Here is a perfect example. As I said, we are in our third infection wave here locally (counting the first one). This third wave really began in earnest at the end of July. Up until then our daily vaccine uptake graph (the number of first doses) was almost flat and our county was sitting at 24% fully vaccinated. After the third wave hospitalizations and deaths picked up, and news of those got out, the daily vaccine uptake graphs started climbing fairly sharply in August. But it is now tapering off to flatline as the wave passes. So mandates, and talk of mandates, don't really matter in my opinion. The harder you try to "force" someone who is reluctant to do something to do it anyway, the more intransient they become to ever doing it. On the other hand, when they can see for themselves what is happening to others around them, their view can be easily changed. And we all get to live happily ever after instead of being forever mortal enemies over harsh words uttered while fighting over the mandate.
And I would like to add one final comment. I'm not for "shaming" folks either. You get your vaccine if you want it, but don't name call and/or shame someone who chooses not to. Again, why destroy friendships over this? The vaccine can protect you, so take that solace. Yes, it's okay to show empathy and perhaps encourage a friend to get vaccinated, but don't make it a point of contention.
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{...} I see "they" sacrificed the health minister. Why is the Premier not following him out the door? {...}
I think answering that question in any detail would require significant forum rule violations, but I think I can get away with saying on a toute la nuit devant nous.
{...}
And I would like to add one final comment. I'm not for "shaming" folks either. You get your vaccine if you want it, but don't name call and/or shame someone who chooses not to. Again, why destroy friendships over this? The vaccine can protect you, so take that solace. Yes, it's okay to show empathy and perhaps encourage a friend to get vaccinated, but don't make it a point of contention.
I agree with this in principle (if for no other reason than shame is often a terribly ineffective tool of persuasion), but I also am somewhat sympathetic to the desire to lash out. I'm lucky that the my only response to a collapsing healthcare system has been "maybe I'll stay off ladders for a bit", but others (those with surgeries being postponed, for example) are not so lucky, and if that leads them to anger I think it's easy to understand why.
-Russ
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I think answering that question in any detail would require significant forum rule violations, but I think I can get away with saying on a toute la nuit devant nous.
-Russ
Oui, mais si le matain est pas meilleur que la nuit.....
Chris.
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As Bill more or less eludes to, the vaccination has pretty much zero efficacy in terms of eliminating the virus. It reduces the symptoms at best. You can get it, you can spread it, and it doesn't have to be from an Un-Vac. You can't say we are the evil ones, careless ones, thoughtless ones, stupid ones, or plain ignorant, we are making a choice, just as you have to get vaccinated. What if in three years all the vaccinated people start having delayed side effects? What if a lot of things.
Like I say, we follow the rules, and there is currently NO MANDATE that says any company MUST have all employees vaccinated. Masks, social distancing, yadda yadda, sure it's in there. We follow the local rules for our events. Never said I neglect them. I stated clearly I DO NOT care for clients that are all about it though. And if there suddenly does become a 100% all-employee mandate regardless of company size, I'm out, see ya. Will figure out another way. See what the economy does when that mandate goes through. Kiss that 401K goodbye, see your pension disappear, watch as your portfolio go down the toilet. The lawsuits alone will bury the legal system. The answer is NO, I will not vaccinate unless they can create a 99% effective vaccine that has NO known side effects. The current efficacy is laughable and nobody should be so proud to stand with that card and say they are better than another who doesn't have one. I am not the disease, I am just another person waiting for their turn to die.
What those who are currently vaccinated should really be worried about is themselves and the actual efficacy of the vaccine they took. Why yourselves? Because many seem to have this false sense of security. I'm vaccinated, I can go to that concert or baseball game and not worry... And then they get sick and are just as much a part of the problem as anyone else is. There are now more vaccinated people out there than Un-Vac's, which means the chances of getting sick from an Un-Vac is considerably lower. The vaccinated ones are the ones going to games, concerts, and other social events, not the Un-Vacs. If it is about who takes up space in hospitals, well people end up there every day for all kinds of different reasons, not just covid. When the vaccine actually has an effective ability to eliminate the infection or spread of the virus, I'm on board with that. Until then, wearing a mask and taking a rapid test is of little consequence. Don't like it, but as I said, I have not had so much as a cold in over two years! We can stay this way, it's working for something.
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Bill I basically agree with much of what you’ve said here (and in a later post as well) at least as far as my belief that we are going to have to learn to live with this. That said I do have to take exception to an implied false equivalence in the following point:
- Vaccinated people can still catch and spread the virus, including variants. Vaccinated people can be asymptomatic carriers. In this regard they are not all that different from unvaccinated people. Perhaps they carry a smaller viral load, but that could very well be an individual thing dependent upon the immune system of the carrier.
Yes, fully vaccinated folks are still getting infected (and to a greater degree with the Delta variant) but as the latest (Updated: Sept. 15, 2021) CDC analysis of health-care worker indicates:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html
…there is still a 66-75% protection against Delta as compared to an unvaccinated individual. That’s unfortunately not as good as the 93-95% protection against the original variant but still a significant difference. As far as I can find, the data on whether the vaccinated carry a smaller viral load when infected is still speculative.
Agreed shaming people doesn’t work. It doesn’t work with drinking and driving either.
Personal: Last October I had to undergo emergency abdominal surgery. I was laying in the OR four hours after symptom onset. Spent twenty days in the hospital recovering. No visitors allowed. COVID was already taking its toll on the staff even then. Many, many hours of sharing their stories and concerns. The thought of that happening again right now with the local hospital in “crisis-care status” scares the shit out of me.
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It's hard to squeeze every thought into a post -- even a couple of VERY long posts like my last two.
As for vaccine efficacy, I don't mean to imply it has none, but neither do I mean to imply it is wonderful and perfectly effective. My thoughts are that at the end of the day it is likely to either make you immune at some level (or at least asymptomatic), or mean that you will have a relatively mild illness should you get COVID or one of its new cousins circulating out there. The exact effect it has for "you" personally is likely governed to a large extent by your genetic makeup and the particulars of your immune response, to some degree by which vaccine you took, and finally by how long ago you took either it or the booster flavor of the month. At least this is what I have come to conclude based on the things I've found posted on the Internet, including some peer-reviewed scientific papers. And remember, for the large majority of people, COVID was either totally ineffective at infecting them (they appear to have innate immunity), or they had symptoms ranging from moderate to so mild they thought it was an allergy or cold. But there are still folks that paid the ultimate price with COVID. And the sad news is that still today our medicine can't predict which of us will have allergy symptoms for two or three days, and which of us will experience the cytokine storm and die from COVID-19. That's the risk/benefit choice I discuss next. Which of those three are you? Are you the innate immunity person, the allergy or mild cold person, or are you the cytokine storm fatality?
I fully respect others decision not to choose vaccination at this time. For all of us, life decisions are made using a risk/benefit analysis that is unique to each of us. What I perceive as high risk, you may perceive as lower risk. And my benefits may not stack and weigh out the same as your benefits. So as we each look at the data, we make our call and can easily come to different conclusions. Some things are black and white -- such as fire is hot and ice is cold; but other things are a lot more gray. The vaccine is gray. It has positives and negatives. For some the positives outweigh the negatives, but for others, not yet. It's true the vaccine has not had years of testing, so long-term side effects are truly unknown. But it's also true that as of today just a tad over 6 billion doses have been given around the world, and percentage wise the number of problems seems quite small at this point.
As I said, I weighed the risks and benefits and came down on the side of "get it". Some other folks who work beside me at church every Sunday on the A/V Team have also weighed the risks and benefits, but they came down on the side of "not yet". I'm fine with that. We don't discuss it. We know what each has chosen, but we treat it the same as "I like vanilla, and you like chocolate". We have a different view, but we don't fight about it nor try to convince the other side they are an idiot for making the decision they did.
To me the real unfortunate thing with this whole COVID outbreak is the fact it happened after the Internet, and especially social media, were "the thing". We literally, in my view, have access to too much information that is unfiltered and unvetted. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT for censorship of any kind, but we do have a pretty big problem created by the algorithms of Facebook and similar platforms. If you have not, you really need to see if you can find the documentary from last year that was on Netflix called "The Social Dilemma". It describes how the Facebook algorithm (and that of other similar platforms) works to constantly feed you stuff you "like". Or stated differently, that you have clicked on and watched or read for some period of time. The algorithm itself is not "evil". It just wants to keep you tuned in to the screen so Facebook can show you targeted ads they can charge top-dollar rates for. But to keep your attention, the algorithm has learned that it needs to only show you stuff you like. So over time this translates into you seeing only one particular point of view on many things. As you interract with someone's post by liking, sharing, or commenting, the algorithm notes that and works to show you more of the same type of thing (so it can show you more ads). But the unintended side effect of this system is that it is easy to convince people they are 100% correct or justified in their view because "look at all these other folks who agree with me!". But in reality, it might be only a very small crowd on the scale of a nation or the world. So the social media landscape lets wild ideas flourish and gain a foothold they probably never would have enjoyed 20 years ago. Add in the cutthroat competition for eyeballs on the cable news channels and the corresponding reduction in old-fashioned journalistic integrity, and even simple things turn combative and are portrayed as "us against them". The last straw that broke the camel's back with COVID is that it popped up during a US presidential election. I won't get into those weeds as it would clearly turn political. I will just say that politicians from both sides of the spectrum are first and foremost concerned with getting themselves or their party elected. And in that game, pretty much anything that can be twisted to shine a bad light on your opponent is considered legit to hurl around. So the fight first over masks and shutdowns, and now over vaccine mandates, has happened in large part I believe, because of the Internet and social media and the wild ideas that seem to flourish there (both pro and con, not taking sides here). At the very least those two (social media and the Internet) greatly amplified simple disagreements into full-fledged wars. And we still seem to be fighting those wars.
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Oui, mais si le matain est pas meilleur que la nuit.....
Nous ne le saurons qu'après le lever du soleil...
{...} unless they can create a 99% effective vaccine that has NO known side effects. {...}
Just for context, while some (although very few) vaccines (e.g. tetanus) do have such a high efficacy, to the best of my knowledge no vaccine currently available (or any other medication, for that matter) has no known side-effects. I don't believe that particular standard has literally ever been met by anything.
{...} The current efficacy is laughable {...} I am just another person waiting for their turn to die. {...}
Also just for context, while the current SARS-CoV-2 vaccines "only" cut your chances of becoming infected by roughly two-thirds, all current data suggests that the reduction in likelihood of serious illness and death is still reduce by well over an order magnitude.
{...} If it is about who takes up space in hospitals, well people end up there every day for all kinds of different reasons, not just covid. {...}
This isn't really the case any more though, at least not here. As of yesterday, where I live, the province's ICU beds were 87% full despite having temporarily doubled the number of beds available (at the cost of hundreds of normal hospital beds). 92% of the people who are currently occupying these ICU beds are there because of COVID-19, and of those ~95% were under-vaccinated when they got ill. One of the only reasons it's taken this long for the province to run out of ICU beds is because COVID ICU patients (again, almost entirely under-vaccinated) are dying almost as quickly as new ones are being admitted. As I type this, the military is being deployed to help try to prevent us reaching the point of "you, we can save; you, sorry, no resources for you", but that is just around the corner.
Here, right now, the people bringing our healthcare system to the brink of collapse aren't car-crash victims or industrial accident victims, it's almost entirely under-vaccinated people sick with COVID-19, and there are thousands of people here who are needlessly suffering with non-COVID-related ailments because the healthcare system is otherwise occupied trying to keep a bunch of under-vaccinated COVID suffers alive.
-Russ
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Nous ne le saurons qu'après le lever du soleil...
Here, right now, the people bringing our healthcare system to the brink of collapse aren't car-crash victims or industrial accident victims, it's almost entirely under-vaccinated people sick with COVID-19, and there are thousands of people here who are needlessly suffering with non-COVID-related ailments because the healthcare system is otherwise occupied trying to keep a bunch of under-vaccinated COVID suffers alive.
-Russ
Et pour le moment, ca c'est la realite qui suive tous. Hier, aujurd'hui ou demain, il'y a pas grand chose qui change, saufe les numero. Plus des resource peut pas arrete le problem de le monde quie fait le choix d'echu le seul manniere d'eviter le Centre de soins intensive.
Russ, your written French is way better than mine. Je parle les deux langue. Francais et Bloke....
Chris.
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Russ,
My reading is showing much different stats than what you mention. There is no possible way that 90%+ of ICU beds are used up by Covid patients. Most data I have seen show around a 1% - 30% range for those with covid. The ICU beds are full and in fact, were nearly full all the time prior to the pandemic. It's not uncommon for hospitals to run near capacity, and I do agree that covid cases are adding to that issue. 95% capacity may be the actual use, but the number of covid patients may only be 10% of the used beds. At least as far as I can tell. The CDC has a website: https://www.cdc.gov/nhsn/covid19/report-patient-impact.html and it shows that only a few states have an issue where covid patients take up 25% or more of the beds. Most states are around 5-10% or so it seems.
Now that does not mean that inbound covid patients are not adding to the issue. But there is no possible way that 90% or more of the beds have a covid patient in them. Gunshot victims, car crash victims, cancer patients, poisoning, stabbing, falls; the list goes on and on with all the standard everyday patients that come in and fill an ICU bed; every day. Covid is not killing people faster than any other everyday thing is. As shown a few posts back, smoking and alcohol kills 500,000 people a year! About the same rate as covid. Add in car accidents, cancers, bee stings, bear attacks, and apparently vending machine accidents ( you have a higher chance of dying from a vending machine accident than dying from a shark attack BTW; just a fun fact ), all add up to way more of an issue than covid.
The media is embellishing the data and making it seem to everyone that covid is what is causing the high use rates. It is a part of it, but the worst reports I can find say that 1/3rd of those consumed beds are covid related. Roughly 30% if you will. Reading past data and you will find that most hospitals are setting around 80-90% ICU capacity historically.
Also keep in mind that the media can use numbers that make no relative sense, that look horrid, and yet are not lying, but also not being truthful. If there are 10 people in the world that get Automotopia ( made up... ish ) and 90% of them die from it, that means only 1 in 10 will survive. Looks horrid, but when you consider only 10 people in the world have it, it's suddenly just a fluke issue. Like the Giant Murder Hornet's from Japan that was supposedly invading US soil, the media really messes crap up by embellishing and spinning the numbers.
I also wonder what happened to the FLU? A couple of years ago the FLU was responsible for something like 60,000 deaths. and it had been around that number for many years. Look at today's data on FLU deaths and it's a faint 3,500...... Cough BS...... The WHO ( World Health Org. ) said a few years ago that as many as 650,000 people died each year annually from the FLU: https://www.who.int/news/item/13-12-2017-up-to-650-000-people-die-of-respiratory-diseases-linked-to-seasonal-flu-each-year Now 2021 shows pretty much an eradicated FLU virus. Must be nice to make numbers look bad by wrapping up FLU deaths into covid deaths....
We need also consider the evolution of viruses and ultimately where they end up. A virus or other host invading disease generally starts off very deadly because the virus is too effective and the host is not immune or strong enough to endure. This does ZERO good for the virus whose only true need in life is for its host to LIVE. So a virus will mutate and evolve into a less lethal version of itself in order to keep its host alive. So over time, covid will become less lethal naturally. The only issue will become how do you keep from getting sick and not have 100% of the world running around with perpetual covid symptoms? Well, it starts by creating a vaccine that actually keeps you from getting the virus, or eliminates it so quick that it doesn't have time to reproduce and infect other hosts. We DO NOT have that reality right now with our current vaccine.
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I also wonder what happened to the FLU?....
We spent a year and a half non-socializing, going to extra effort to sanitize and not spread any communicable diseases. No wonder the flu barely registered.
Must be nice to make numbers look bad by wrapping up FLU deaths into covid deaths....
See, that's not what happened at all. Do we really need unsupported speculation like this?
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We spent a year and a half non-socializing, going to extra effort to sanitize and not spread any communicable diseases. No wonder the flu barely registered.
See, that's not what happened at all. Do we really need unsupported speculation like this?
I feel like this thread is bordering onto politics.
It's gotten a bit off topic (see title).
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I wasn't going to say more-but I will say that the last three posts are encouraging from the standpoint that it is a well thought out discussion of the issues at hand. Conversations like this are more likely to move my hesitancy than arguments such as "case counts are going up and the unvaccinated are to blame"-when clearly, if vaccinated can get sick and transmit it can't be blamed on them entirely-and if vaccinated can carry and transmit, vaccination will never eradicate.
I am willing to be persuaded-but honest reasoned discussion is a better persuader than dramatic rhetoric such as unvaccinated are killing vaccinated.
Here is a financial incentive for getting the shots.
If you need to cross any borders in order to work, then you need to be fully vaccinated or plan on spending a lot of time and money on extra testing and quarantine hotels.
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I'm the original poster. It wasn't my intent to discuss COVID in general but only from the point of view of how to deal with it as a business. I am pleased to see a mature, civil discussion of it though & some valid points have been made on both sides. It's a refreshing change from other online forums.
I have gotten some really valuable feedback from my overseas comrades. It's a bit like being able to see into the future which is super useful. For example I've already contacted all contractors to find out if they're available (as I gather we'll need them all) & their vaccination status. I've also updated our booking policy & OH&S policy.
If people want to continue discussing how to deal with COVID as a business or individual technician that would be great but I fear that if we get too far off topic that this post will rightly be deleted by the admins & this valuable discussion will be lost.
Cheers Lee.
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My reading is showing much different stats than what you mention. There is no possible way that 90%+ of ICU beds are used up by Covid patients. {...}
Luke, these are the official numbers from the Government of Alberta, on the Government's own website. (https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm#healthcare-capacity) As of September 21st (the most recent day for which statistics are available), there were 249 patients in ICU beds here, of which 230 were COVID patients (in a province that, in normal times, only has 173 ICU beds total). According to this press conference given by our chief medical officer a couple days ago (https://globalnews.ca/news/8215655/alberta-coronavirus-update-september-23-2021/), “...92 per cent of those in the ICU right now have not had both shots”, and “One hundred per cent of new ICU admissions (in the past week) were in Albertans who did not have any vaccine protection”.
Nor am I bluffing about the military being called in to help (https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/alberta-s-overwhelmed-icus-near-capacity-military-support-being-deployed-1.5598845).
I really am not making this stuff up.
{...} Russ, your written French is way better than mine. Je parle les deux langue. Francais et Bloke....
Je suis flatté! Je parle les deux langues de l'Alberta: l'anglais et le "Google Translate"...
-Russ
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Je suis flatté! Je parle les deux langues de l'Alberta: l'anglais et le "Google Translate"...
-Russ
Nice one Russ.
Never saw that coming......
Stay SAFE!
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I wouldn't call it politics. And totally not derailed either. Information trading at the very least.
I suspect some here are getting angry at me, but I am not angry at anyone. This is a polarizing subject. There are very few middle-ground subjects and most are either on one side or the other.
I'm not familiar with Alberta, I don't speak French, and USA data is all I really follow. When it comes to other countries I am ignorant of their data sets. Mostly because I have NO INTENTIONS of traveling. I don't think you make this stuff up, but whatever the USA is doing seems to be keeping things at bay enough at least. As for other countries, I have no idea? We are here talking about people traveling, throwing events, concerts, and gathering in groups. Seems a bad idea to me to be doing so. Easy answer... Stop doing that.
I say it, but perhaps it gets overlooked? So let me reiterate my contribution, stance, and solution. There is a pandemic that is a communicable disease. This means STAY AWAY FROM PEOPLE. This, to me, means don't travel, don't gather in large groups, respect people's space and follow guidelines. I wash my hands regularly and stay away from people. I don't travel to places outside of my region. Low and behold, for over two years I have not had so much as a cold! That is my contribution, I respect people's space and follow guidelines. I don't like it, but I do it. I preach no vaccines and no mandates and can also say that I have had no illnesses in a considerable amount of time. I am practicing what I preach. Probably because as much as I say hogwash, I also do things that keep me from eating my words.
My stance is that if you or anyone else is brazen enough to blame the problem on Un-Vac's, become angered by those who are not all about " it " ( " it " being covid mandates and vaccinations ) and that you 100% believe the data spewed by media about the virus as gospel, are not realistic, fair or free from sin. If you travel, cross borders, gather in groups, go to sports games, concerts and do things that are not in the best interest of eliminating or reducing the possibility of infection, you are more a part of the problem than you think. Just because you are vaccinated does not mean you are not a super spreader, you are in fact a super spreader with a super spreader card that gives you access to super spread even more than an Un-Vac. You don't suddenly become free of the burden because you possess a card. That is my stance.
My solution is simple. STOP traveling, STOP gathering in groups, STOP blaming Un-Vac's, STOP going to events, STOP forgetting your vaccination DOES NOTHING TO STOP THE INFECTION OF YOURSELF OR OTHERS!!!!! Just stop. We are all equals, we are all in this together and we are all part of the same problem. I want to work just as much as the next guy, I LOVE MY JOB. I can't help but feel upset about those who want to throw a party yet have crazy rules about vaccinations and masks when they shouldn't be throwing a party at all. If you are scared or care at all about covid, don't throw a party, don't travel, and don't think for one second that you are better than another because you have a card that allows you to do that. That simple. When you get sick, you become just as much a spreader as anyone else. I am not scared of covid, I am not allowing myself to be persuaded, pressured, or forced into getting a vaccine that has little or no efficacy for a virus that will naturally become less lethal over time anyway. The solution is simple, don't do things that amplify the potential for you to become infected, or to infect others. The vaccine is NOT effective at stopping the spread of the virus, at best it reduces your symptoms, making you become even more likely to do normal human things and spread the virus.
As it pertains to managing a production company, it doesn't change much. I am so busy I am angry when the phone rings. I need less work. I am turning clients away. My company has what I would consider a moderate covid policy that follows my area's current rules. Vaccinations are NOT required but recommended, masks on the Jobsite are required as per city and state rules, but not otherwise. When we do accept a client that has stringent vaccine demands we are open and tell them that such staff in its entirety may not exist and we will provide a negative test and wear a mask as requested, and if you can't accept that, well good luck finding another company that can fill those demands and in your budget, timeframe and with quality. The company I work for is the benchmark for quality in my area. You cannot get better and if you do, it will cost you multitudes more.
I would say that having a 100% vaccinated staff may be a leg up in the industry? I only feel that forcing that hand also makes you quite the panderer, sheep, or grunt if you will. To me, making it a mandate for workers and a selling point is scummy and money-grubbing. We all know the vaccine does little in regards to the protection of infection, and no one will argue that with an iron fist. So forcing the hand on it and using it as a selling point to drum up business is not much better than Monsanto saying they took the orange out of the agent by making it green ( technically the US Gov't created Agent Orange with help from a University of Illinois employee Arthur Galston and then compelled Dow and Monsanto to produce the chemical for their use, so while Monsanto gets the short stick, they aren't actually the ones who created the stuff) so it has a better appeal to sell. You can't guarantee that one of your employees won't infect someone anymore than you can't guarantee that they won't become infected by someone at the event.
The dangers of the mandates are already happening. A family friend of mine ( not vaccinated ) works for the school district. Guess who has a sweeping vaccinate or terminate policy going into effect? This particular school of course. She has worked with the school for nearly 30 years as a teacher. She does not want to vaccinate for her own reasons, who am I to ask or criticize why, but the reality is that the only job she has ever known is on the chopping block. For what, another person who is just as likely to become infected as she is to take her place? What does that do to her pension? Does the pension of the newcomer compare ( I highly doubt it as pensions are becoming rare and less beneficial, and the Windfall act isn't helping)? This can get ugly for everyone. Imagine 25% of the working population saying hell no, I will not vaccinate and losing their job? The economic impact would absolutely destroy everything you hold dear. Housing, 401K, portfolios, you name it, everything would absolutely eat poop. You think labor is hard to find now, imagine needing someone who can work with Soundvision, Smaart, La Network et all and having a million-dollar PA you need to put up for a gig, but because the guy's who know that aren't and won't get vaccinated, can't be employed to do it. It is the epitome of having your cake, but absolutely not being able to eat it. The possibility is real. Just as real as you getting covid. And if you have already gotten it, you know how real it is. But you are alive to live that reality. All I am saying is forcing the hand that actually feeds you is usually not a good idea. We need to play a different game, and it starts by just being smart, not sweeping silly mandates on the masses. I think it starts with being real and saying NO more often. No travel, No parties, No mandates, and NO you can't throw a 250 person wedding... Freaking duh.
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My solution is simple. STOP traveling, STOP gathering in groups, STOP blaming Un-Vac's, STOP going to events, STOP forgetting your vaccination DOES NOTHING TO STOP THE INFECTION OF YOURSELF OR OTHERS!!!!! Just stop.
As it pertains to managing a production company, it doesn't change much. I am so busy I am angry when the phone rings. I need less work. I am turning clients away. My company has what I would consider a moderate covid policy that follows my area's current rules.
You are correct that the vaccine does not make you invincible or unable to be a source of transmission. That's why we still wear masks, lots of personal hygiene, sanitizing high touch items, etc. I have quite a collection of negative test results.
But the vaccine certainly lowers your chances of severe illness or death which lessens the strain on the health care system.
I am failing to follow your logic when you say you want everyone to stop gathering and going to events to reduce the spread of Covid, but then talk about how busy you are doing these events.
Back on topic.
I just got back from a festival that had strict protocols in place in order to meet the local regulations.
Everyone had to do a screening/contact tracing (including providing proof of vaccination) at the security gate to get site credentials.
Everyone masked except for musicians actually on the stage performing.
No traditional catering as such. Take out orders which were consumed inside our production trailer away from others.
Folks came and had a good time.
This seems to be the way forward, at least in these parts. Hopefully the health dept statistics will bear out that this model is not contributing to any increases in the case count.
Be well and stay safe everyone.
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...
Back on topic.
I just got back from a festival that had strict protocols in place in order to meet the local regulations.
Everyone had to do a screening/contact tracing (including providing proof of vaccination) at the security gate to get site credentials.
Everyone masked except for musicians actually on the stage performing.
No traditional catering as such. Take out orders which were consumed inside our production trailer away from others.
Folks came and had a good time.
This seems to be the way forward, at least in these parts. Hopefully the health dept statistics will bear out that this model is not contributing to any increases in the case count.
Be well and stay safe everyone.
I just did a festival in CA with similar protocols although it was testing at the gate and masks and such rather than required vaccination. I came away with mixed feelings. On the one hand, it was great to return to some semblance of normalcy. I was also encouraged by the normalization of common sense precautions against infections of ANY kind [namely distancing as much as possible and strict masking when NOT possible]. In short, most people just "got it" and observed the common sense protocols without complaint or much "bending of the rules".
That being said, would I have done the job if I were NOT vaccinated? Nope. I saw enough bad behavior [not prevalent, but it did exist, mostly among the talent and associated hangers-on (hanger-ons?)] and I had to be in enough "compromised situations" [like shuttle buses to get to the site from the parking lot] that I would have not been comfortable working the event without knowing that my chance of infection was reduced and that my chances of getting seriously ill was also sharply reduced.
I also was "the truck guy" which meant I had no exposure to the public and also no real exposure to the performers so I was able to stay fairly isolated which made me more comfortable.
These are complicated times. They require making difficult decisions based on incomplete data. Like everyone else, I'm doing the best I can for my situation with the data set that I have. In the meantime I continue to try to build a production business based on mixing shows from my house because it's the safest place for me to mix from. I also like mixing in my PJs... :)
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I am failing to follow your logic when you say you want everyone to stop gathering and going to events to reduce the spread of Covid, but then talk about how busy you are doing these events.
let's be realistic, and keep in mind that in other posts I have mentioned that the people have spoken and don't care..... I am a sound engineer, production manager, event staffer, business owner, whatever you want to call it. I NEED/WANT to work. Our career does not put us in a good place considering the current situation. Businesses have failed and went under, hence why I am as busy as I am. The choices are few and the demand EXTREMELY high. Why do I get so many calls? Because the majority of people don't truly care.
I am not afraid of covid. I am not on the spectrum for needing to fear it. 95% of my staff is also not on the spectrum of needing to worry about it. That being said, perhaps 90% of my staff is vaccinated, some by choice, some by pressure from family, and some by Gov't policy ( I have a Marine Reserve on my team who does not want to but is because they told him to or he will get a dishonorable discharge ). I am not because I AM SCARED TO DEATH of any potential reaction. Keep in mind I have had HORRID fixed drug eruptions from over-the-counter drugs. I have also had less than fun reactions from other prescriptions I have gotten. The thought of vaccinating to find out I am allergic has no appeal, seeing as how I could end up in the hospital anyway for something other than covid... We are ALL POTS calling KETTLES black. I am no more a hypocrite than the next sound guy, band member, or event staff at an event.
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Luke,
Why do you assume that everybody else is cowering in fear from this disease? Maybe fear isn't why the majority of people have gotten vaccinated. It just seems to me like you keep coming back to variations on "I'm not living in fear" as the main theme of your argument.
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Luke,
Why do you assume that everybody else is cowering in fear from this disease? Maybe fear isn't why the majority of people have gotten vaccinated. It just seems to me like you keep coming back to variations on "I'm not living in fear" as the main theme of your argument.
Science isn't a buffet: "I'll have some of that, but I don't like that cause it's icky". We all reach our limits of easy comprehension (for me it was Calc 1, whatever chapter comes after derivatives). If you accept that 2+2=4, or blue+yellow=green, or reversed polarities cause a null, you are a believer in scientific evidence. You are on the science train (a collection of disciplined and curious and peer-reviewed minds) that has been successfully rolling for a few centuries. Data & Statistics can never predict any one individual outcome, but by design those disciplines relentlessly get closer.
You Marine Reserve friend is fortunate to have people looking out for his and societies' interests.
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Going back to the OP-dealing with covid in production. Several of the latest post have mentioned festivals-I'm assuming outdoors? Our church did an event this weekend-outdoors-right at 1000 people on site.
The CDC guidance for covid exposure is still "within 6 feet of someone for a cumulative total of 15 minutes or more over a 24-hour period"-that is copied and pasted from the CDC website. Outside of my family, I could name maybe 8-10 people I was "exposed" to during that time. People sitting near me during the service as I mixed from an iPad. Would my exposure have been any different had I been in my home with those 10 people instead of at an event with 1000 (or even 10,000) people?
I'm not looking for argument-just honest thoughtful discussion...
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Russ,
My reading is showing much different stats than what you mention. There is no possible way that 90%+ of ICU beds are used up by Covid patients. Most data I have seen show around a 1% - 30% range for those with covid. The ICU beds are full and in fact, were nearly full all the time prior to the pandemic. It's not uncommon for hospitals to run near capacity, and I do agree that covid cases are adding to that issue. 95% capacity may be the actual use, but the number of covid patients may only be 10% of the used beds. At least as far as I can tell. The CDC has a website: https://www.cdc.gov/nhsn/covid19/report-patient-impact.html and it shows that only a few states have an issue where covid patients take up 25% or more of the beds. Most states are around 5-10% or so it seems.
Now that does not mean that inbound covid patients are not adding to the issue. But there is no possible way that 90% or more of the beds have a covid patient in them. Gunshot victims, car crash victims, cancer patients, poisoning, stabbing, falls; the list goes on and on with all the standard everyday patients that come in and fill an ICU bed; every day. Covid is not killing people faster than any other everyday thing is. As shown a few posts back, smoking and alcohol kills 500,000 people a year! About the same rate as covid. Add in car accidents, cancers, bee stings, bear attacks, and apparently vending machine accidents ( you have a higher chance of dying from a vending machine accident than dying from a shark attack BTW; just a fun fact ), all add up to way more of an issue than covid.
The media is embellishing the data and making it seem to everyone that covid is what is causing the high use rates. It is a part of it, but the worst reports I can find say that 1/3rd of those consumed beds are covid related. Roughly 30% if you will. Reading past data and you will find that most hospitals are setting around 80-90% ICU capacity historically.
Also keep in mind that the media can use numbers that make no relative sense, that look horrid, and yet are not lying, but also not being truthful. If there are 10 people in the world that get Automotopia ( made up... ish ) and 90% of them die from it, that means only 1 in 10 will survive. Looks horrid, but when you consider only 10 people in the world have it, it's suddenly just a fluke issue. Like the Giant Murder Hornet's from Japan that was supposedly invading US soil, the media really messes crap up by embellishing and spinning the numbers.
I also wonder what happened to the FLU? A couple of years ago the FLU was responsible for something like 60,000 deaths. and it had been around that number for many years. Look at today's data on FLU deaths and it's a faint 3,500...... Cough BS...... The WHO ( World Health Org. ) said a few years ago that as many as 650,000 people died each year annually from the FLU: https://www.who.int/news/item/13-12-2017-up-to-650-000-people-die-of-respiratory-diseases-linked-to-seasonal-flu-each-year Now 2021 shows pretty much an eradicated FLU virus. Must be nice to make numbers look bad by wrapping up FLU deaths into covid deaths....
We need also consider the evolution of viruses and ultimately where they end up. A virus or other host invading disease generally starts off very deadly because the virus is too effective and the host is not immune or strong enough to endure. This does ZERO good for the virus whose only true need in life is for its host to LIVE. So a virus will mutate and evolve into a less lethal version of itself in order to keep its host alive. So over time, covid will become less lethal naturally. The only issue will become how do you keep from getting sick and not have 100% of the world running around with perpetual covid symptoms? Well, it starts by creating a vaccine that actually keeps you from getting the virus, or eliminates it so quick that it doesn't have time to reproduce and infect other hosts. We DO NOT have that reality right now with our current vaccine.
your data points out The following downloadable file contains national and state estimates from the NHSN COVID-19 Module. This file will not be updated after July 14, 2020 and includes data from April 1 to July 14. so its not current and should not be used in your data projections.
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Last month we did a 5 sunday series at an outdoor beer garden; aro 200 ppl.
All crew and employees were tested on each event day.
All audience required proof of vax or recent negative test to enter.
Crew stayed mostly masked during the event.
I know of no spreads from the series.
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For those that have been super busy, do you think that's because of an increase in demand or a decrease in competition?
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For those that have been super busy, do you think that's because of an increase in demand or a decrease in competition?
Probably both in our case. In particular we've been getting events that need to be streamed, and often also need to cover bigger spaces so that people can be spread out. Usually HoW, corporate, etc.
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Luke, I think your comments about the vaccinated having a false sense of security are, at least to some extent, correct. I think where we disagree is statements like this one:
{...} a vaccine that has little or no efficacy {...}
Most of what we do in live sound is relative, and incremental improvement tends to come with exponential cost. Adding 6 dB SPL to the headroom of a PA can be prohibitively expensive, and adding 15 dB SPL would be unimaginable.
Even with worst-case numbers for the Delta variant, mRNA-vaccinated individuals are at least 6 dB(20log) less likely to get infected, and at least 15 dB(20log) less likely to become hosptialized if infected. The drop in ICU admissions and deaths is even more significant.
That's not perfect, of course, but it's also a darn sight better than nothing. Wearing a seat belt doesn't perfectly guarantee my survival in a car accident, either, but I still buckle up when I drive because it significantly improves my chances. COVID vaccination, despite its lack of perfection, has prevented an immeasurable amount of suffering over the last several months, and it continues to do so in the face of the Delta variant.
Nice one Russ.
Never saw that coming......
Stay SAFE!
In fairness, the seven years of French classes I was required to take in school should give me enough of a background to at least verify that Google Translate isn't trying to screw me (although unfortunately not enough to actually speak the language, or at least not while sober).
And thanks, will do. As I say, no ladders for a while...
-Russ
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Last month we did a 5 sunday series at an outdoor beer garden; aro 200 ppl.
All crew and employees were tested on each event day.
All audience required proof of vax or recent negative test to enter.
Crew stayed mostly masked during the event.
I know of no spreads from the series.
Dave, You realize I had to read this four times to realize you were not putting on church services at a beer garden?
When are you going to invite me to come look at Tom's handywork and we can work out a cross rental agreement?
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For those that have been super busy, do you think that's because of an increase in demand or a decrease in competition?
It is for sure a combination of both. We are way past the point of repeat new business too. Being reliable and effective and making sure you snatch up capacity (hands and gear) before your competitor books it seems to serve well.
We booked hands for weekend "on the come" and still were short staffed. I know and speak frequently to many of our competitors, they are turning away business and some truly awful folks have stepped in to fill the void.
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It is definitely a case of both. Many of my initial events were holdovers from prior to the pandemic, and the others are all new. I was probably 50/50 for a month or two starting in may and the past couple of months have been a majority of new events with a few priors sprinkled in. Lately, we have been getting pressured and nearly begged to provide services. I have a crew of 10 that are all nearly full-time with the amount of work coming in. I am putting in 6 day weeks and many 12 hour plus days. I have another two weeks of that right now. Vaccination status is of little concern to most clients, they only care about availability.
Scott, is it fear, civic duty, or being a sheep? I don't know? Fear and angst are all I can surmise from it. People want to go back to a normal life and they feel the quickest way to do that is to get vaccinated et all. You tell me what drives the decision. Why did you do it? Why did anyone do it? I can only feel that fear is the predominant driver. Fear of losing your job, fear of not being able to get a job, fear of getting your grandma sick, on and on. For the patriotic ones, what is the core of their drive? Is it fear for humanity or heroism?
Again we seem to graze over the indisputable fact that NONE of the vaccines protect you from anything other than a hospital visit. If staying out of the hospital ( because of greatly reduced symptoms or morbid dangers from the virus ) is the only main driver, then sure, that is a great reason to get the vaccine. Still driven by fear with that mindset though.
Tell me how the " My body, My choice " mindset doesn't apply to this scenario. I don't want the vaccine, why should I feel guilty, or get the 10th degree for that?
I have not heard so much as a peep for why others got the vaccine, other than they just did. I am wearing my ideas on my shoulder ( making me an easy target for argument and retort ), while others just say I'm wrong with little or no actual data to support it. You want to tour in your band, the Gov't says you have to be vaccinated to travel, so you get vaccinated to travel. That has nothing to do with protecting others, it only has to do with your own personal interests. You want to do shows for certain clients and they require vaccination, well you get vaccinated so you can work for those clients. That is not noble in any sense. So if fear isn't your driver, then what is it? Science says that the vaccine does not protect you from infection, or spreading the infection, only that it may reduce your chances of severe symptoms from the virus. That's it, no more no less. So how am I the asshole? Is it because I call BS, or is it because I am 100% wrong and need to get vaccinated tomorrow without any concern whatsoever about any potential outcome? I know I'm not 100% right, so I can't also be 100% wrong, therefore I can only go by my gut. My gut says no, don't do it, don't fold, and don't lapse on your strength to make MY right decision. Be it for me or for everyone else is not relevant, the only right decision is one that doesn't have an effect on anyone. The vaccine doesn't protect against that enough and I seem to have a high potential for a reaction ( at least in my experience ). That violates the rule, making the vaccine nothing more than a false profit if you will. For me, it is a matter of fear of or fear for. I/You have a fear of, or a fear for X, Y, and Z. I feel the majority of people fall into those two drivers. The rest did it to enable personal interests, out of genuine interest in society, or directly due to pressure from loved ones, friends or other entities.
Another story: I was at a job today at a private residence for an older couple installing permanent lighting in their yard. Of course, restroom needs are a thing when you spend 8 hours at a person's place. I knew it was coming, but you have to ask. The reply... Are you all vaccinated? No was the answer. Well if you are, wear a mask and you can go inside, we have soap and a towel for you. If you aren't, well, there is a tree that I'm sure needs watering... No problem sir.
Now tell me what you think, knowing that the vaccine will not stop another vaccinated person from getting sick and spreading it to another vaccinated person when the only thing that person cares about is whether you are vaccinated or not? I WOULDN't DARE argue, or dismiss an elder's request for ANY reason, the answer I replied was absolute and genuine. No problem sir, and I could care less about why. It's his house, his rules, his reasons. I will comply with that. I just feel bad, because he was not wearing a mask or showing any great concern otherwise, and his confidence in his request seems to be driven by confidence in the vaccine. He thinks the Un-Vacs are the ones to worry about, everyone else gets a soft pass. Knowing what we do about the vaccines, how do you feel knowing that you got vaccinated and that you CANNOT guarantee that you can't infect another person who has such a request? Do you use his restroom, or do you go outside? I went outside.... so did everyone else, I was the only one not vaccinated. The ultimate question is whether you have 100% faith in the vaccine, if not, what is the argument with my mindset then?
Russ, Your response came up while I was typing this, so it probably doesn't address your question. All I can say is I don't disagree. My thing is that this isn't a logarithmic or exponential difference. 50% better odds is literally a coin toss. Even if it were 75% better odds, you have a 25% chance of failure. Let's use prophylactics as a measure. If option a has 99.99% odds of preventing pregnancy and option B has 75% odds of preventing pregnancy, which option do you choose? In the case of covid, you have what is measuring out to be roughly a 1% chance of death. You almost literally have a 99% chance of survival with no outside assistance. So 50% better odds only improve your outcome to 99.5%, and 75% better odds only increases your chance of survival to 99.75%. Or something like that... My math isn't usually great and at 11 pm after two beers, it certainly isn't any better. So the only thing you are buying ( or in this case giving into ) is a lower likelihood of hospitalization and a slightly lower chance of infection. The efficacy is really low comparatively. Birth control is nearly 100%, the vaccine is riding around 70% on average. It starts really high at around 90% and drops starkly after 6 months. Note that the efficacy is measured on assessment of severe disease, not the elimination of the virus altogether. So you still get sick, but the degree of symptoms is the only reduction you realize. I.E. you are still able to get sick and still able to get others sick. The data on efficacy for the elimination of infection is pretty scarce.
The only thing I can lay on heavily at the moment is that 75% of Americans are fully vaccinated and we are still seeing a rise in cases. To say that 25% of Americans are causing a rise in cases unlike any that we have seen yet is not realistic. The contribution is coming from where? Can it be that 75% of vaccinated individuals are just as dangerous? Or is it that the vaccine is not truly effective? Or do we truly think that 25% of Americans are 100% responsible for the infections? Is it both Vaccinated and Un-Vacs? If it's the latter, then who is more to blame? With more vaccinated than not, it becomes an issue of efficacy. I don't see a 6db increase. I see a false sense of security and a bit of self-righteousness. Don't do things that increase the odds of infection. Who can do more things that increase the odds of infection? Those with a vaccination card, that's who.
I still don't see a counterargument to that idea. If I am even partially correct, then how do we fix the actual issue as opposed to my mindset? I simply present what I feel is a holistic/realistic view of the problem. The math is incomplete and changes every day. Today, it points to the vaccine as being not very effective, and with the majority of people vaccinated, the things they are allowed to do is evening out the score. Better odds don't mean much when those with better odds are taking every chance to test things. Let's use this analogy. If 100 people attend a concert, and all that is required is a vaccination card or a negative test within the past week, we shall assume that there are 75 people who are vaccinated and 25 who aren't. This follows the current vaccination to Un-Vac rate in the USA. The only people in that 100 person event that know for a fact they haven't been recently exposed until that point are the Un-Vacs. That means at least 75 people are potentially a super spreader. Who in that group is more likely to be a source of infection? We can't possibly know, and it points to being literally a toss-up.
The TLDR version is I don't disagree with much of what others are saying, but the data still points to a failure of the vaccination fascination. To me, it doesn't improve things enough to justify the potential implications of taking it. I feel it is a money grab. One thing I read says that the cost/burden on taxpayers for the vaccine is in the billions, interestingly big pharma is raking in billions..... Follow the money they say. The aha is usually where the cents meet the hands that take it.
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I have not heard so much as a peep for why others got the vaccine, other than they just did. I am wearing my ideas on my shoulder ( making me an easy target for argument and retort ), while others just say I'm wrong with little or no actual data to support it. You want to tour in your band, the Gov't says you have to be vaccinated to travel, so you get vaccinated to travel. That has nothing to do with protecting others, it only has to do with your own personal interests.
My personal interest is to not become a vector for any existing or developing form of the virus. As with most others here, I deal with a new crowd of people almost every day. I choose not to become a welcome breeding ground for SARS-CoV-2 or any of its variants. I choose not to be an easy conduit for the virus to transfer from one group of people to another. Yes, these are ultimately selfish thoughts. I want to continue the career I've become accustomed to. The fact that by being vaccinated I am helping others by reducing the efficacy of the virus is a bonus I accept with pleasure. But ultimately yes, I am concerned for myself and the family I come home to.
At no point has any venue, employer, or client required me to be vaccinated.
The only thing I can lay on heavily at the moment is that 75% of Americans are fully vaccinated and we are still seeing a rise in cases.
Your 75% figure is wrong. Less than 65% of Americans have gotten the first dose. And we're seeing a rise in cases most likely because less than 1% of children under 12 years old have gotten any dose, and we're cramming them together in schools where they often are not required to do anything to hamper the spread of Covid-19. Then we send them back to their families to share. Over and over again.
https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/
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I choose not to become a welcome breeding ground for SARS-CoV-2 or any of its variants. I choose not to be an easy conduit for the virus to transfer from one group of people to another.
Yes, these are ultimately selfish thoughts.
This is not selfish. This is for common good, of which you are a wise part.
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I have not heard so much as a peep for why others got the vaccine, other than they just did.
I personally know co-owners of a transport business who - in spite of being right wing and solidly "my body my choice" on FB - are vaccinated themselves. When talking to them, they just can't take the chance of getting really sick because of the damage it would do to their business. Without that responsibility, they wouldn't have done it.
The club I'm involved with has around 16 employees. With the recent illness of two more bartenders, all who are unvaccinated have now gotten Covid. In spite of being around the same people in the same environment, those of us who are vaccinated have not.
Maybe we're just lucky.
As for me, I'm not pressing my luck with this one. I got my 3rd booster yesterday. Same reasons as my friends in the transport business.
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{...} I have not heard so much as a peep for why others got the vaccine, other than they just did. {...}
Fair point! Here's my reasoning, approximately in order of importance:
- I wanted to reduce my chances of getting severely ill and/or dying (which vaccines, particularly the mRNA vaccines, have been demonstrated to do, even against Delta)
- I wanted to reduce my chances of becoming infected and then getting other people infected (because if I don't get infected I can't infect someone else)
- The demonstrated, increased risks associated with the vaccines (again, particularly the mRNA vaccines) are substantially outweighed their demonstrated benefits (something along the lines of a bookie offering a bet with 1:99 odds but a 9:1 payout)
In truth, as relieved as I felt when I got my shot, my greatest feelings of relief came the day my wife got hers. She was the one I was most likely to pass the virus on to if I had someone gotten infected, so her getting vaccinated meant that my chances of accidentally killing her with COVID-19 dropped to practically nothing.
{...} Let's use prophylactics as a measure. If option a has 99.99% odds of preventing pregnancy and option B has 75% odds of preventing pregnancy, which option do you choose? {...}
Typically both (although, to be clear, masking and social distancing isn't nearly 99.99% effective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 transmission, especially indoors).
{...} In the case of covid, you have what is measuring out to be roughly a 1% chance of death. You almost literally have a 99% chance of survival with no outside assistance. So 50% better odds only improve your outcome to 99.5%, and 75% better odds only increases your chance of survival to 99.75%. Or something like that... {...}
Your math is right, but your understanding of how probability works isn't. In probability, going from 99% to 99.75% is a massive difference.
If the chances of survival without vaccination are 99%, this means that 1% of people who get infected will die. If a vaccine reduces the likelihood of death by even 50% to produce a survival rate of 99.5%, suddenly only 0.5% of people who get infected will die. If you spread these percentages across the population of the United States, the unvaccinated scenario would result in the deaths of ~3.3 million Americans, while the vaccinated scenario would result in only ~1.7 million deaths (or ~1.6 million fewer than the unvaccinated scenario).
Of course, the real numbers are even more stark: even against Delta, the vaccine is at least 99% effective at preventing death, which increases the survival rate to at least 99.99%. This means that 0.01% will still die, but across the American population this would drop the total number of deaths from ~3.3 million to only ~33,000 people; that's literally 3+ million lives saved. And all this is just for deaths; the vaccines have similar (although lower) effectiveness as preventing infection, illness, and serious illness as well.
-Russ
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Fair point! Here's my reasoning, approximately in order of importance:
- I wanted to reduce my chances of getting severely ill and/or dying (which vaccines, particularly the mRNA vaccines, have been demonstrated to do, even against Delta)
- I wanted to reduce my chances of becoming infected and then getting other people infected (because if I don't get infected I can't infect someone else)
- The demonstrated, increased risks associated with the vaccines (again, particularly the mRNA vaccines) are substantially outweighed their demonstrated benefits (something along the lines of a bookie offering a bet with 1:99 odds but a 9:1 payout)
In truth, as relieved as I felt when I got my shot, my greatest feelings of relief came the day my wife got hers. She was the one I was most likely to pass the virus on to if I had someone gotten infected, so her getting vaccinated meant that my chances of accidentally killing her with COVID-19 dropped to practically nothing.
Typically both (although, to be clear, masking and social distancing isn't nearly 99.99% effective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 transmission, especially indoors).
Your math is right, but your understanding of how probability works isn't. In probability, going from 99% to 99.75% is a massive difference.
If the chances of survival without vaccination are 99%, this means that 1% of people who get infected will die. If a vaccine reduces the likelihood of death by even 50% to produce a survival rate of 99.5%, suddenly only 0.5% of people who get infected will die. If you spread these percentages across the population of the United States, the unvaccinated scenario would result in the deaths of ~3.3 million Americans, while the vaccinated scenario would result in only ~1.7 million deaths (or ~1.6 million fewer than the unvaccinated scenario).
Of course, the real numbers are even more stark: even against Delta, the vaccine is at least 99% effective at preventing death, which increases the survival rate to at least 99.99%. This means that 0.01% will still die, but across the American population this would drop the total number of deaths from ~3.3 million to only ~33,000 people; that's literally 3+ million lives saved. And all this is just for deaths; the vaccines have similar (although lower) effectiveness as preventing infection, illness, and serious illness as well.
-Russ
Death is not the only bad thing that happens with this virus. Known (and unknown?) long-term health effects are also on the table. Many pretty severe.
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Of course, the real numbers are even more stark: even against Delta, the vaccine is at least 99% effective at preventing death, which increases the survival rate to at least 99.99%. This means that 0.01% will still die, but across the American population this would drop the total number of deaths from ~3.3 million to only ~33,000 people; that's literally 3+ million lives saved. And all this is just for deaths; the vaccines have similar (although lower) effectiveness as preventing infection, illness, and serious illness as well.
Given those numbers, why are the vaccinated so anti-unvaccinated? It would seem they have eliminated their risk almost completely? From a production standpoint, if you are concerned and get the vaccination what real fear should you have of jumping in and running production? As I mentioned earlier-especially for those outside your crew, social distancing by the CDC guidelines is relatively easy.
I have installed devices to kill viruses in air handlers at my day job-to help mitigate spread. Given what we know about how the vaccines work-and given others mentioned to do as much as possible to minimize transmission, why is this not a mainstream consideration? It would seem a logical next step to making indoor entertainment more inviting to more patrons.
I really do understand vaccinations-I was against antivaxxers pre-pandemic. Reason? Many have forgotten the terrors of measles, polio, mumps and other outbreaks-which are controlled with vaccines that are a known quantity. But there is still the issue of individual choice.
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But there is still the issue of individual choice.
There is not. Individual(s) may choose to open the jet door at 20,000 ft., but the passenger/pilot group has decided otherwise.
The house must always win in the aggregate or there is no casino.
Kapish?
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Given those numbers, why are the vaccinated so anti-unvaccinated? It would seem they have eliminated their risk almost completely? From a production standpoint, if you are concerned and get the vaccination what real fear should you have of jumping in and running production? As I mentioned earlier-especially for those outside your crew, social distancing by the CDC guidelines is relatively easy.
I have installed devices to kill viruses in air handlers at my day job-to help mitigate spread. Given what we know about how the vaccines work-and given others mentioned to do as much as possible to minimize transmission, why is this not a mainstream consideration? It would seem a logical next step to making indoor entertainment more inviting to more patrons.
I really do understand vaccinations-I was against antivaxxers pre-pandemic. Reason? Many have forgotten the terrors of measles, polio, mumps and other outbreaks-which are controlled with vaccines that are a known quantity. But there is still the issue of individual choice.
I've told this story before... but when I was about 4 or 5 years old and not wanting my school shots my grandparents took me to their small town hospital and showed me the "now vacant" iron lung. I didn't understand what it did or why it was a big piece of hospital equipment but I still recall their look of concern that I or anyone's child might end up in such a machine. Sadly we've gotten to the point that people will believe fraudulent social media posts, doctors practicing outside their specialty, or politicians with division to be sown. The psychological manipulation they are subjected to makes scientific truths and realities easily denied when those do not conform to the mis/disinformation that has taken prevalence over common sense.
But remembering my grandmother's eyes and the plaintive look on her face - I knew I had to take my shots. I still didn't want them (and still don't like shots) but I *knew* that to not do so meant disappointing my grandparents. And grandparents are sooo much cooler than mom and dad, right? Couldn't let them down...
Steven, the issue has become "what makes a political statement" rather than "what gives me, my family, and my community a better chance of more safely returning to near-2019 life, sooner?" for too many. For the folks who are medically ineligible to take the vaccine, it's important that the rest of us practice better infection control and that means our vaccination, hand hygiene, keeping respectful distancing, and wearing masks for the time being. Mr Rogers would approve, I think.
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Two separate issues here. One is, should I get the vaccine? If I refuse that is taken as a political statement. Fair enough-won't argue the politics here.
Second issue-returning to "normal in production". According to Russ's numbers, if EVERY single person in America contracted covid and EVERY person in America was vaccinated, approximately 30,000 would die-roughly the same number as will die in an auto accident in the next 12 months in the US. I would argue if you ever get in a vehicle on a road next year your chances of dying are the same as if you contract covid if you are vaccinated. Regardless of what I do, why would you hesitate to go back to normal production if you are vaccinated? How often do you actually decline to get in a motor vehicle because of the risk involved? Of course, that doesn't mean it's OK for me to drive impaired, or reckless-and that is a fair argument for vaccinations (if they guaranteed I could not infect you I would say), nor does that mean we shouldn't work to minimize the risk- but that doesn't keep you off the road.
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And sometimes the concept of "choice" is illusory....
Received an hour ago...
-----Original Message-----
From: AAAAAAAAAAAA>
Cc: BBBBBBBBBBBBB>
Sent: Tue, Sep 28, 2021 4:35 pm
Subject: XXXXXX October 14 and YYYYY ZZZZZ - Friday, October 15 at Le Venue - COVID Policy
XXXXX is also requiring all staff to be vaccinated or negative covid test within 72 hours.
We have other shows that are going to require it as well.
October 14 is 16 days away. Start planning accordingly now.
If you have not done so have your staff send a photo of their vaccine card to S______ on copy.
Also we need to make sure when your staff is in the building they need to be masked at all times.
We have a bunch of shows in October. Let’s keep it that way!"
So without vaccination I cannot dispatch a worker to that account. I think we're at 100% in my shop (including office staff) so it's a matter of documentation.
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Steve and Luke are catching a little bit of flak in this thread, but they both have an excellent point.
Being vaccinated DOES NOT make you immune. If it did, I doubt the CDC would have reinstated their masking and distancing suggestions for vaccinated individuals after they initially dropped them for many kinds of events where the crowd was vaccinated. I think it was the Massachusetts incident back earlier this summer that spooked the CDC severely. That showed them that vaccinated individuals can catch the virus, and they can spread the virus. This is especially true with the much more contagious Delta variant. I was just reading today on the CDC site about this (the fact vaccinated folks can still be carriers). The vaccinated appear to be contagious for a shorter period of time than the unvaccinated, but that's about it. They have been observed to be capable of carrying the same initial viral load, especially with the Delta variant. But many vaccinated can have that viral load and be asymptomatic. Granted, this is not every vaccinated person, but it must be quite a few. Consider how rapidly COVID-19 took off again with the Delta variant (even when accounting for its much more infectious nature). While it is the unvaccinated that are overwhelmingly getting very sick from it, I'm not personally convinced at this point there is enough of them out there to account for the rapid spread. I read that some of the recent daily case numbers in a few states have exceeded the pre-vaccine peaks. I suspect vaccinated folks are also contributing to the current spread. So blaming all of the misery on the unvaccinated is likely misplaced in my view.
So those folks out there that can't be vaccinated for whatever reason (usually a medical one), are always going to be at risk from everyone else -- both the unvaccinated AND the vaccinated. Or it certainly seems that way at this point in time. That's because the vaccine seems to, at best, just make you COVID resistant but not COVID immune. It lessens your chances of needing hospitalization, and it seems to rather substantially lower your risk of death from COVID, but it does not appear to make you basically immune to the disease like other vaccines (such as the polio and smallpox vaccines, for example).
So this circles back to the argument of what exactly is the benefit from the vaccine mandates and their associated spilled blood (metaphorically speaking)? Even if everyone is vaccinated, it seems COVID-19 and its variant cousins are still going to be around infecting some of the vaccinated and spreading among them. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them to likely keep the infection going. So what then? How do we reopen the world? We can't keep going on with half-capacity crowds, and a lot of people are sick and tired of masks (I know I certainly am).
I've personally grown increasingly frustrated with a US medical establishment that seems unable to give us a straight answer for what the endgame for COVID is, or even what the target might be. Let's remember we started this journey with "... 14 days to flatten the curve ...". That was over 18 months ago.
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So this circles back to the argument of what exactly is the benefit from the vaccine mandates and their associated spilled blood (metaphorically speaking)? Even if everyone is vaccinated, it seems COVID-19 and its variant cousins are still going to be around infecting some of the vaccinated and spreading among them. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them to likely keep the infection going. So what then? How do we reopen the world? We can't keep going on with half-capacity crowds, and a lot people are sick and tired of masks (I know I certainly am).
I've personally grown increasingly frustrated with a US medical establishment that seems unable to give us a straight answer for what the endgame for COVID is, or even what the target might be. Let's remember we started this journey with "... 14 days to flatten the curve ...". That was over 18 months ago.
Here lies the exact question. When you step back and ask what the ENDGAME is, and it appears that the rules being put in place don't in any way match what the advertised end game is, that's when conspiracy theories can be born.
We're exactly at that point right now. WHY are some of the rules being put into place that seem quite contradictory? It's been clearly shown that when vaccinated, you are still able to get the virus, and pass said virus, but show no symptoms. If you don't have the vaccination, you're much more likely to show symptoms if you are carrying the virus. Yet, venues have enacted rules that demand those without vaccinations show a negative test to enter, but those that have a vaccine card don't have to get tested. If the idea was to STOP the spread, why not just make EVERYONE show that negative test? Is the idea to convince people that getting vaccinated is going to make your life easier? If so, that comes off as a pretty shady way to coerce the vaccine on people.
And now data is showing that the effectiveness of the vaccine is less against this Delta variant than the effectiveness of someone that had the original strain of COVID. So had people NOT gotten vaccinated and just gotten the original variant, the Delta variant may not have had as many potential people to spread through.
Yeah, so much keeps changing, and the rules that get put in place often make little to no sense. It's very easy to let your mind wander into the possibility that there's more at play here than just the virus.
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I have first-hand knowledge of a vaccinated person becoming infected with COVID-19 about 6 months after innoculation. It was my youngest son's mother-in-law. She and her husband were both vaccinated in January this year as soon as Georgia opened up the shot for their age group. I don't know which vaccine they received, though. I don't recall the exact date, but sometime around the first week of August or maybe the end of July this year she became ill and tested positive for COVID when she visited her doctor. Here locally (and I think state-wide), they won't tell you if you have the Delta variant. They just say "COVID". So I don't know which version she had, but I suspect Delta. She was sick for a few days, but nothing much worse than a moderate cold according to her. Her doctor did send her to the ER to get the monclonal antibody infusion. For some reason here locally they only do that in the hospital and not at the doctor's office.
During the time she was ill, she was advised to quarantine. So that tells me the medical establishment thinks she was contagious to others. This reiterates the point some of us are making. Other than probably helping ameliorate your own COVID illness, I'm not sure what it does for others out there for you to be vaccinated; unless you want to just count the potentially decreased rate of hospitalizations. In her case, she actually became symptomatic. But I understand from the data that others with breakthrough illness can be asymptomatic.
I'm not against the vaccine. As I said much earlier, I chose to take it. My decision was based on hoping to either not catch COVID, or have a mild version of it if I do catch it. I'm retired, so I don't need to be vaccinated to keep my job. And at the moment, there is no place I'm dying to visit that requires a vaccination, so those two points were not part of my calculus for taking the vaccine.
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Given those numbers, why are the vaccinated so anti-unvaccinated? {...}
Because:
Death is not the only bad thing that happens with this virus. Known (and unknown?) long-term health effects are also on the table. Many pretty severe.
...the natural likelihood of which is significantly higher than 1 in 100, and against which the vaccine doesn't offer the same level of efficacy.
More people vaccinated means fewer people becoming infected which means fewer people for other people to get infected from, etc. Do this enough and we can lower the R-value below 1.0 and the virus truly becomes endemic. Even if a vaccinated person is just as contageous as a non-vaccinated person (which there is some data to suggest they aren't quite), a vaccinated person is less likely to enable the spread of the virus simply because they are significantly less likely to have it in the first place.
I'm fully vaccinated. I almost certainly won't end up in the ICU (or the morgue) if I get infected. I still don't want COVID, because "fairly unliklely to get life-alteringly ill" isn't nearly unlikely enough for my tastes. And I'm one of the lucky ones (I don't want to think about what would happen if my fully-vaccinated 99-year-old grandmother got it).
Don't get me wrong, in light of Delta I'm plenty dubious of places where being vaccinated means no more restrictions. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.
-Russ
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This dialog is more what I was looking for!!! This will be short I promise.
As I said before I am all about free choice. I will never tell you that you are wrong about your choice to vaccinate, or not. My only gripe lies squarely on the liberties that getting the vaccine affords people. It gives them a green light to do things in a way that contradicts the common-sense way to not get infected. Again, if you don't do things that increase your odds of contraction, you should have little to worry about. So don't do those things. My anger stems from the projection of those who are vaccinated onto those who are not, about their level of safety. Many vaccinated people are scared of the Un-Vacs when they should be scared of everyone. People have a false hope, impression, or idea of what the vaccination does or doesn't do.
I will concede that the odds are in your favor with the vaccination, but that doesn't make it the magic bullet that many think it is. We are talking about making something a requirement for every person in the US. when the product doesn't have the efficacy to protect you from the problem. Most of the drugs for old-world problems are well-sorted and have pretty much a 99.99% efficacy. The covid vaccination does not have even close to that efficacy yet. It is and always will be at best a yearly flu shot. At least at the current state it is in.
We are in a weird place. Our jobs pretty much depend on a large mass of people. Counterintuitive to the solution for our problem. So yes, we need to tread lightly, and I think it starts by saying NO more and being careful what jobs we take. If we take them all, it will come back around to bite us in the butt.
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I saw a short news story this morning that Pfizer had started testing a Covid pill. I think the idea was that if you had Covid you would get a Rx for this pill and you would be cured.
Maybe another weapon to fight this disease that people with reservations about vaccines can use to free up hospitals and eradicate this.
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I saw a short news story this morning that Pfizer had started testing a Covid pill. I think the idea was that if you had Covid you would get a Rx for this pill and you would be cured.
Maybe another weapon to fight this disease that people with reservations about vaccines can use to free up hospitals and eradicate this.
There is no cure for a virus, it becomes part of you for a bit until you either die or your body fights it off.
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There is no cure for a virus, it becomes part of you for a bit until you either die or your body fights it off.
Things change
https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-initiates-phase-1-study-novel-oral-antiviral
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I saw a short news story this morning that Pfizer had started testing a Covid pill. I think the idea was that if you had Covid you would get a Rx for this pill and you would be cured.
Maybe another weapon to fight this disease that people with reservations about vaccines can use to free up hospitals and eradicate this.
Something like this is what I think will put the world back to normal - an effective treatment for the disease that can be administered to the folks that wind up critically ill from the virus. As we have all heard, a sizable majority of people have a minor illness and recover from COVID. But a few get critically ill. Effective treatments for those who get critically ill turns COVID into just the flu back before 2020. The flu was (and still is) deadly for a few, but not the majority. And because of that we tolerated a trade-off in society (no lockdowns, no reduced venue capacity, and no masks or social distancing; and accepted the moderate number of illnesses and even deaths that flowed from that policy). I think that's where we end up eventually with COVID.
EDIT: Oh, and we need to pass an international law that makes monkeying around with "gain of function" viral research tantamount to a capital offense ... :). If we're not careful there, we could exterminate ourselves.
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{...} My anger stems from the projection of those who are vaccinated onto those who are not, about their level of safety. Many vaccinated people are scared of the Un-Vacs when they should be scared of everyone. People have a false hope, impression, or idea of what the vaccination does or doesn't do. {...}
It's a tricky balance of risk-management. Vaccinated people are somewhere between less and much less likely to be infected, so I'm somewhere between less and much less concerned about becoming infected from them. This, combined with the current case numbers in my area, inform my comfort level with regard to risky activities. Low case numbers and a vaccine mandate? I might finally consider going to a restaurant (which I haven't done since March 2020).
I think my favourite approach is used by one employer I have who mandates vaccination, daily rapid testing, masking, and distancing. Real belt-and-suspenders stuff.
-Russ
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And because of that we tolerated a trade-off in society (no lockdowns, no reduced venue capacity, and no masks or social distancing; and accepted the moderate number of illnesses and even deaths that flowed from that policy). I think that's where we end up eventually with COVID.
I really can't accept that. Just because X die from cause Y doesn't mean we can't do better. If the Taliban started sending suicide bombers into midwestern malls, would we just say "hey, it's only a few dozen people, more die from alligator attacks"?
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I really can't accept that. Just because X die from cause Y doesn't mean we can't do better. If the Taliban started sending suicide bombers into midwestern malls, would we just say "hey, it's only a few dozen people, more die from alligator attacks"?
I don't mean to sound snarky, and I know it probably will anyway, but you did accept this up until about March of 2020. At least collectively we as a society accepted it. We had several tens of thousands die from flu related illness year after year for decades. Flu is contagious. We took no extraordinary precautions as a nation or world to stop its spread. The difference with COVID is that it had a higher death rate initially, and was initially quite contagious (as compared to the common flu of our era). Not disputing that. And our response was to try and minimize both illness and death with measures not unlike what was done during the Spanish Flu epidemic in 1918 and 1919.
But the same thing I described in another section of my post has basically happened to that Spanish Flu strain. It mutated into something that kills not nearly as many (but it still kills some). We tolerated that status quo up until COVID came on the scene.
What I mean by "tolerated" is we had flu shots available, and some took them faithfully and some did not. But we did not socially distance, wear masks, or limit event occupancy that I am aware of based on the risk of flu. We also did not mandate everyone get a flu shot. The bulk of us never consciously considered that some number of folks in the crowds we were part of would die that year with the flu; perhaps after contracting it from someone beside them at an event. In fact, if you had the flu yourself in any given year, you very well could have spread it to some stranger while you were walking around before becoming really sick enough to hit the bed. That stranger might have even died with the flu.
This gets back to an earlier post where I asked "what is the endgame with COVID-19?". Is it zero deaths, or is it zero cases? Is either of those really practical at this point? I don't think so. Can we drop the numbers down from where they have been (and are now in some places)? Yes. But I don't think zero is achieveable. So at what level of cases, hospitalizations and deaths do we say "it's over", let's return to pre-2020? Or do we never go back there again, ever? If annual COVID deaths in the US come down to the same level as historical flu deaths averaged over say the last three decades, is that when we say COVID is over? I'm just legitimately wondering what the target is where we say "we made it, the pandemic is over". The goal posts seem to have been continually shifted on us, and we are never quite there yet; because to my knowledge our various leaders have not really defined for us what "there" is.
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It's a tricky balance of risk-management. Vaccinated people are somewhere between less and much less likely to be infected, so I'm somewhere between less and much less concerned about becoming infected from them. This, combined with the current case numbers in my area, inform my comfort level with regard to risky activities. Low case numbers and a vaccine mandate? I might finally consider going to a restaurant (which I haven't done since March 2020).
I think my favourite approach is used by one employer I have who mandates vaccination, daily rapid testing, masking, and distancing. Real belt-and-suspenders stuff.
-Russ
Two scenarios based on a recent event. Not trying to argue as much as ask people to think. Honestly, I don't think I have an absolute answer for myself.
My son (a law enforcement officer) contracted covid around the 5th of this month. He was sick for several days and did not get tested (I think he should have-and I have in similar circumstances) He ended up exposing my family and me especially after he thought he was better (yet no one got sick). When he told me he lost his sense of taste/smell, I drove to work the next morning and called my boss from the car and asked what to do. He had me come to work until the test came back, so I went in and purposely socially distanced. Mid-day my sons test came back positive, so he sent me home. Short version, I isolated and got tested after 5 days and both quick and PCR were negative so back to work having never exposed anyone in the work place per CDC guidelines. What if the hypothetical vaccinated person just ignored the exposure assuming they were immune-which is worse?
Last week the Hawkeyes had a home game. What if they required proof of vax or a negative test? My son could not get a negative test because he will likely test positive for weeks-is he more of a risk than someone who was vaxed in January and their efficacy is in the 70's% range instead of the 90's% but who has been living footloose and fancy free the last week or so?
Humanly, we always want a cut and dried answer-hence the "Feedback Destroyer's" and how many audio "magic boxes" popularity. Yet real life and science is never quite so cut and dried. In my world of electricity we talk of conductors and insulators-yet neither is absolute.
I think Luke and I are pretty much on the same page whether we agree 100% or not I'm not sure. It's not that vax's are "bad very bad". But neither are they the be all to end all. My issue isn't with the vax so much-but with the "just get the vax and shut up" attitude. That made a bit more sense 7-8 months ago-but real life data suggests it's not going to be that simple. (It doesn't help that the "ultimate solution" means somebody is pocketing a whole lot of tax dollars which may or may not influence guidance)
I am happy to follow the science-but are we following science? I have spent a career troubleshooting and getting to the root problem and finding the best way to fix something. The best way to get there? Good accurate meaningful data. They talk about positivity rate being a good indicator. Fair enough but for this to be accurate it needs to be random sample. Currently there are 3 groups getting tested:
1. Those who have symptoms-testing only this group artificially increases the rate.
2. Those who must test for work/travel-repeatedly testing these same people artificially reduces the rate.
3. Those being tested prior to medical procedures-possibly the most random of the groups.
A key piece of information that would shed light on the situation (especially of a random group) would be the vaccination status of anyone tested-yet this information was never collected from me (this was my first experience with this provider so they knew they had zero info on me). Yes, breakthrough cases that get treated are caught and highlighted-but are we looking at asymptomatic spread-if it exists? Is there anyway with our current methods to really even understand what is happening? Are we trying to find the best answer-or do we just want a quick, simple answer that we can say has the problem solved? Whether that "problem" is stopping the pandemic or deciding we can return to working?
Russ, you talk of a vaccine mandate as a condition-does that mean a card that expires? If so, when should it expire-what efficacy level makes a mandate acceptable? Unfortunately it's not a simple yes/no question--the risk will never be zero.
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This gets back to an earlier post where I asked "what is the endgame with COVID-19?". Is it zero deaths, or is it zero cases?
I would have settled for us not screwing it up again, the way we did with the 1917 flu. But I guess as a society we have to make the same mistakes every few generations.
Failing that, at least not rationalizing away hundreds of thousands of American deaths.
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I got my booster shot on Monday and I feel a little safer now. Catching covid has a good chance of killing me. So I'm strongly in the vaccination, masks and distancing camp.
I look at the death rate of unvaccinated versus those that are and I don't need any more data though there is a lot more out there. Don't know why that doesn't convince people to get the shot. Do they think those numbers are made up or is it that they think they're invincible? Like I used to feel up to my 50's.
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Russ, you talk of a vaccine mandate as a condition-does that mean a card that expires? If so, when should it expire-what efficacy level makes a mandate acceptable? Unfortunately it's not a simple yes/no question--the risk will never be zero.
I think where I start to get a little frustrated is the number of times I've heard someone say something along the lines of "the risk will never be zero" as a justification for not trying to manage the risk at all. It's like saying "I can't be 100% certain that my venue won't burn down, so there's really no point in installing a sprinkler system". Life is, and always has been, about risk management, and (easier though it may be) someone who abdicates their personal risk management responsibilities does so quite literally at their own peril (and often the peril of those around them, too).
To me, personally, there have been two real take-aways from observing society over the last year-and-a-half:
- Doing something (even if imperfect) is almost always better than doing nothing
- Nimbleness in thought and action tends to be rewarded
I can absolutely see a scenario where a vaccine mandate includes a requirement for regular boosters. I can also absolutely see a scenario where vaccine uptake is high enough that a mandate is no longer of meaningful benefit (like most places currently have for measles or rubella). At this precise moment, though, those are future decisions to be made with future data.
In the present, with present data (like the rare scenario of the local chamber of commerce and the local doctors' association calling for the same regulations), let's give vaccine mandates a try and see how it goes. We can (and should!) always make adjustments down the road if needed.
-Russ
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This thread has been a very good read. Lots of good info and people thinking hard about the problem.
My takeaway? It is a very complicated problem. But we can follow the science, and minimise harm to ourselves and others.
Here in New Zealand we have done pretty well, and one of the things our Prime Minister constantly says, is 'be kind'.
We are in a bad situation, we wont make it better by yelling at each other.
I have had the shots, but I live rurally and have not been in crowded situations, so my chances are good of avoiding it.
But you never know! We had a case here caused when a door was opened for 20 seconds and the disease crossed the corridor
and infected another person. Its a killer.
Stay safe, wear a mask, social distance.
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I think where I start to get a little frustrated is the number of times I've heard someone say something along the lines of "the risk will never be zero" as a justification for not trying to manage the risk at all. It's like saying "I can't be 100% certain that my venue won't burn down, so there's really no point in installing a sprinkler system". Life is, and always has been, about risk management, and (easier though it may be) someone abdicating their personal risk management responsibilities does so quite literally at their own peril (and often the peril of those around them, too).
To me, personally, there have been two real take-aways from observing society over the last year-and-a-half:
- Doing something (even if imperfect) is almost always better than doing nothing
- Nimbleness in thought and action tends to be rewarded
Spot on.
To compare it to live sound it's like saying:
"I won't use an equalizer because it's not guaranteed to eliminate feedback."
That's true but it will help dramatically & feedback elimination is not the only benefit, it's going to sound better too. You should also use other tools such as mic placement, foldback placement, mic selection etc. In the pandemic that might be akin to masking, social distancing & hand washing.
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I think where I start to get a little frustrated is the number of times I've heard someone say something along the lines of "the risk will never be zero" as a justification for not trying to manage the risk at all. It's like saying "I can't be 100% certain that my venue won't burn down, so there's really no point in installing a sprinkler system". Life is, and always has been, about risk management, and (easier though it may be) someone abdicating their personal risk management responsibilities does so quite literally at their own peril (and often the peril of those around them, too).
To me, personally, there have been two real take-aways from observing society over the last year-and-a-half:
- Doing something (even if imperfect) is almost always better than doing nothing
- Nimbleness in thought and action tends to be rewarded
And like acoustic treatment, more than 1 tool may be required to deliver the desired results.
What I learned in my Covid Compliance Officer training came down to "how can we keep people from re-breathing air?" Oh, we can't? Uh... then what practices, products and procedures help mitigate risk vectors? There is no single silver bullet; it's the combination of physical distances, air exchange, masks, HVAC air flow direction(s) that have to balance out how hard people are exhaling (deep lungs - screaming, yelling, singing - are greater risk), how long people are around each other... and a bunch more are factors.
Being in a room of socially distanced, silent meditation folks for 30 minutes is better than being outdoors in a stadium of screaming fans for 3 hours and depending on the summer breeze to increase safety.
A final comment about efficacy of vaccines and drugs in general - to get approved, almost any medicine only has to have results better than placebo to begin it's way in the approval chain... so 51% opens the door. Most flu vaccines have been in the 60% range for decades but we still use them because the probable benefit outweighs the perceived risk of influenza or vaccine reaction. With the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines in the 90%+ range it's kind of disingenuous to say they're insufficient, especially in light of the risk/benefit ratio.
And among the benefits: a much shorter period of virus shedding should a vaccinated person become infected; 3 days instead of 10. Being asymptomatic - not coughing or sneezing - puts less virus back into the air. Being unlikely to need hospitalization, and have a quicker recovery, are good for quality of life and economic productivity.
I've had my shots and will get my booster in a couple weeks because it's in my personal and economic best interests to remain as healthy and productive as possible. Since I can't socially distance an arena or theater full of people who are mostly unmasked and of questionable vaccination status (my county is ~60%) I'll use vaccination as one of the tools in my "stay mo' healthy" kit.
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And like acoustic treatment, more than 1 tool may be required to deliver the desired results.
What I learned in my Covid Compliance Officer training came down to "how can we keep people from re-breathing air?" Oh, we can't? Uh... then what practices, products and procedures help mitigate risk vectors? There is no single silver bullet; it's the combination of physical distances, air exchange, masks, HVAC air flow direction(s) that have to balance out how hard people are exhaling (deep lungs - screaming, yelling, singing - are greater risk), how long people are around each other... and a bunch more are factors.
Being in a room of socially distanced, silent meditation folks for 30 minutes is better than being outdoors in a stadium of screaming fans for 3 hours and depending on the summer breeze to increase safety.
A final comment about efficacy of vaccines and drugs in general - to get approved, almost any medicine only has to have results better than placebo to begin it's way in the approval chain... so 51% opens the door. Most flu vaccines have been in the 60% range for decades but we still use them because the probable benefit outweighs the perceived risk of influenza or vaccine reaction. With the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines in the 90%+ range it's kind of disingenuous to say they're insufficient, especially in light of the risk/benefit ratio.
And among the benefits: a much shorter period of virus shedding should a vaccinated person become infected; 3 days instead of 10. Being asymptomatic - not coughing or sneezing - puts less virus back into the air. Being unlikely to need hospitalization, and have a quicker recovery, are good for quality of life and economic productivity.
I've had my shots and will get my booster in a couple weeks because it's in my personal and economic best interests to remain as healthy and productive as possible. Since I can't socially distance an arena or theater full of people who are mostly unmasked and of questionable vaccination status (my county is ~60%) I'll use vaccination as one of the tools in my "stay mo' healthy" kit.
Every business is at core a hospitality endeavor, based on shared trust and goodwill.
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It's a tricky balance of risk-management. Vaccinated people are somewhere between less and much less likely to be infected, so I'm somewhere between less and much less concerned about becoming infected from them.
The problem with that concept is the way the testing numbers are being generated certainly makes it LOOK like being vaccinated reduces risk of getting the virus. But, there's a huge problem with how those numbers are calculated. First off, if vaccination helped reduce the spread, there should have been some sort of correlation with increased vaccination rates and reduction in cases. The opposite seems to be true. But raw case rates don't catch everyone with the virus so it's easy to see how those numbers could be skewed based on how many people are tested. It does seem to be the case that vaccinated people that get the virus are less likely to show symptoms. Therefore, there's little to no reason one would subject themselves to random testing.
BUT, and this is one of the things that really bugs me, is that many venues are requiring either vaccinated status OR a negative test. So, what that does is skew the number of tests given to non vaccinated people. Of course if you never test the vaccinated and only test the unvaccinated, your numbers will show more unvaccinated people as having the virus.
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The problem with that concept is the way the testing numbers are being generated certainly makes it LOOK like being vaccinated reduces risk of getting the virus. But, there's a huge problem with how those numbers are calculated. First off, if vaccination helped reduce the spread, there should have been some sort of correlation with increased vaccination rates and reduction in cases. The opposite seems to be true. But raw case rates don't catch everyone with the virus so it's easy to see how those numbers could be skewed based on how many people are tested. It does seem to be the case that vaccinated people that get the virus are less likely to show symptoms. Therefore, there's little to no reason one would subject themselves to random testing.
BUT, and this is one of the things that really bugs me, is that many venues are requiring either vaccinated status OR a negative test. So, what that does is skew the number of tests given to non vaccinated people. Of course if you never test the vaccinated and only test the unvaccinated, your numbers will show more unvaccinated people as having the virus.
We have events that require vaccination proof, masks, and a negative test result 48 hours before top of call, but the "trifecta" isn't common. Local rapid result testing is available for free (Wichita State University's Molecular Sciences Lab) in My Faire City and employers/producers are paying for 1 hour of straight time to get tested. The commute time both ways is 30 minutes for me. I could go to the Walgreens 6 blocks from my home but might not have results for 72 hours... either way, 1 hour of pay.
If I needed proof of tetanus vaccination, I'd be calling my doc or pharmacist for a jab. Shots to go overseas? No problem. It comes with the turf and there are few complaints. Not talking about the vaccines themselves, but that until biology and epidemiology became political/social issues relatively few chaffed at the idea of needing shots to do whatever it was they needed to do.
My jobs put me in close contact with strangers for extended periods of time. I want to work. Considering the relatively high rate of transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 (and infectiousness of emerging variants), my job puts me at higher risk, and it's not a risk that is easily mitigated by external means: masks and distancing and fresh air exchange are the non-invasive tools. Since I can control only 1 of those I see vaccinations as the primary line of health defense, and using masks and distancing (such as I can) as part of my work flow. The benefits of the vaccine outweigh the statistically insignificant 'cost' (reactions or side effects) for almost everyone, including me. The primary benefit to vaccination - I am more greatly protected against significant illness and therefore more able to practice my craft and have an income.
From a legal standpoint, unless one is covered by a personal services contract or a collective bargaining agreement that includes language specific to new or voluntary vaccinations (rather than required, existing ones), likely employers will prevail in court. I'd be surprised if any such agreements written more recently than a couple of years ago exist, like "streaming income isn't in your 1997 contract, *insert name of artist here*, so we're not paying you." Time will tell but I don't see most lawsuit or arbitration findings for workers or unions. Unions are in a particularly odd position of generally advocating for workplace health and safety while challenging the employer's creation of a new workplace health and safety requirement...
The tl;dr -
If you want to work today in our industry, get your shots, wear your mask. If you're waiting on legal decisions or for employers to back down, you're losing income and whatever benefits you might have.
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... First off, if vaccination helped reduce the spread, there should have been some sort of correlation with increased vaccination rates and reduction in cases. The opposite seems to be true.
I suspect the reason the cases sometimes increase at the same time as vaccination rates is not because the vaccine is ineffective but rather because increasing vaccination rates mean that other measures such as social distancing, masks etc are relaxed at the same time.
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Substitute 'fall arrest harness' for vaccination through out this thread and see how it comes off with OSHA and your fellow industry professionals.
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Substitute 'fall arrest harness' for vaccination through out this thread and see how it comes off with OSHA and your fellow industry professionals.
I'm vaccinated myself, so I'm not posting this as an anti-vaxxer. But your example is apples to oranges for this reason -- you don't put a fall arrest harness "in you". You put it "on you", and it most certainly can't interact with your body in a biological sense. There are no lasting medical side effects or adverse internal body reactions to donning a fall arrest harness.
With vaccines, which you either inject or swallow, there is most certainly the potential for adverse reactions. Are they common? No, but they do exist nonetheless. Making vaccines mandatory for employment, and in effect "blacklisting" someone who chooses not to get one, is just plain wrong in my view.
As I stated a long time ago earlier in this thread, the vaccinated (me included) are supposedly protected from serious illness and death. So it is no skin off my back if my co-worker chooses to remain unvaccinated. Why should I rejoice in him being unable to find employment because of a personal choice that really has very little (if any) impact on me. Him coming to work drunk or stoned where his impairment might cause physical injury to me is different. I don't have a "vaccine" against him doing something dangerous and stupid while impaired on drugs or alcohol and injuring or killing me and others in the process.
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With vaccines, which you either inject or swallow, there is most certainly the potential for adverse reactions. Are they common? No, but they do exist nonetheless. Making vaccines mandatory for employment, and in effect "blacklisting" someone who chooses not to get one, is just plain wrong in my view.
Vaccines are already required in many occupations and industries, and they're required for enrollment in schools or to be admitted to other countries. That many have not been previously employed where such things are mandatory means they are likely to not understand that employers are *required by law* to have a safe and healthful workplace, and that can include requiring vaccination for highly contagious illnesses.
"According to my careful prosthesis, this man has.... the plague." - Fire Sign Theater 'Beat the Reaper'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5AZwkz8zLU
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Vaccines are already required in many occupations and industries, and they're required for enrollment in schools or to be admitted to other countries. That many have not been previously employed where such things are mandatory means they are likely to not understand that employers are *required by law* to have a safe and healthful workplace, and that can include requiring vaccination for highly contagious illnesses.
"According to my careful prosthesis, this man has.... the plague." - Fire Sign Theater 'Beat the Reaper'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5AZwkz8zLU
I am not personally aware of any job in the U.S. that requires having a vaccine (exempting the COVID mandate for now). That's not to say some don't exist, but it certainly is not a widespread requirement. I was never, in my 40 years in the workforce, asked to show proof of vaccination for any job I held. I also have travelled outside the U.S. nine times in my life. On none of those trips do I recall having to provide any proof of vaccination. I understand there are a few third-world destinations where proving vaccination status is required, but I've not travelled there. My destinations included Bahamas, Jamaica, Mexico, Canada (three times), Ireland, Italy and Greece. Those trips were all pre-COVID. If I were a vaccine objector, I could certainly just choose not to travel to those third-world countries where vaccination was required.
All I'm trying to say is I think this medicine would be easier to get folks to swallow if we stopped some of the iron-fisted tactics. As already evidenced by some of the pushback from airline employees, nurses, teachers, police, and quite a few other industries, we are creating a lot of angst for not much improvement in my opinion. After all, this vaccine does not knock out COVID by granting you long-term immunity. It's basically about as effective as an annual flu shot based on the push now for recurring boosters due to the vaccine efficacy waning after a few months. Are we also going to now mandate the old flu shots for everyone? And while we are doing that, why shouldn't we also mandate Shingles and Hepatitis vaccines for everyone? There is also an adult Pneumonia vaccine. That's a somewhat dangerous and contagious disease. Should that vaccine also be mandated in order to have a safe and healthful workplace? Where do we stop? Yes, I went a little over the top with some of my rhetorical examples, but I can see a somewhat slippery slope developing. And all for just regular employment in the general economy. Should the mandate apply to seasonal migrant workers who pick so much of our produce? If so, how can you police that? My county has a seasonal influx of several thousand migrant workers that come in to pick squash and harvest our onions, cabbage and other crops that must be processed by humans and not machines. Not very many of them have visas -- if you know what I mean.
And how do we handle folks who have had previous adverse reactions to vaccines? Can they get work without being vaccinated, or do they lose their jobs? Case in point is my youngest son. He took a regular flu shot three years ago and suffered a temporary bout of guillain-barré syndrome (GBS) that caused him to lose use of his hand for a couple of days (on the arm where he got the shot). He woke up the next morning and his hand would not work! It terrified him as he had no idea what was up. His doctor explained the reaction was very rare, but not unheard of. For him it passed and he fully recovered. But because of that, he asked his doctor about getting the COVID vaccine and the doctor said "absolutely not!". My son questioned him once more asking about the Moderna RNA vaccine because it was new technology and made differently, but the doctor still said "no, I do not recommend it". He told him the risk of another, even more severe, bout of GBS was possible in his case with his previous history.
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There is also an adult Pneumonia vaccine. That's a somewhat dangerous and contagious disease.
Pneumonia is not actually a disease - it is a condition brought on by varied types of infections. So I'm not sure how there would be a specific vaccine for it.
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Pneumonia is not actually a disease - it is a condition brought on by varied types of infections. So I'm not sure how there would be a specific vaccine for it.
Here it is (from the CDC): https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/pneumo/public/index.html (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/pneumo/public/index.html). I didn't know it existed either until I stumbled upon it searching for adult vaccines. It is for a specific type of pneumonia, but there is a vaccine for it nonetheless.
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Here it is (from the CDC): https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/pneumo/public/index.html (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/pneumo/public/index.html). I didn't know it existed either until I stumbled upon it searching for adult vaccines. It is for a specific type of pneumonia, but there is a vaccine for it nonetheless.
Interesting, thanks. Aside from a similar-looking name, it's not the same thing as "Pneumonia" other than it could also produce those symptoms.
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Interesting, thanks. Aside from a similar-looking name, it's not the same thing as "Pneumonia" other than it could also produce those symptoms.
Yes, lowercase "pneumonia" describes a condition more so than a specific disease. Uppercase "Pneumonia" apparently can describe specific types of the general condition based on cause. Some are caused by bacteria, and some are caused by a virus. I believe it is the viral types where some vaccines exist.
I've heard doctors speak of a "COVID-induced" pneumonia, too. Again I think in that context "pneumonia" is more used to describe a condition of the lungs.
Let's not to get too far off into the weeds over the definition of pneumonia. However, it does bring up what I think is a salient point. COVID is just one variation from the universe of corona viruses. COVID is a type of flu. And we have never been able to develop a truly effective vaccine against "the flu". It looks like that record is continuing when it comes to COVID (at this point in time, at least). Our vaccines are losing their effectiveness rather quickly. And compared to the long-term effectiveness of vaccines such as Shingles, Hepatitis, Polio and others -- the COVID vaccines are losing their effectiveness at warp speed.
So returning the circle to our mandates discussion -- should we not mandate boosters as well? After all, the person who gets vaccinated today likely has greatly diminished protection this time next year. And the COVID virus, like other flu viruses is going to continue to mutate. So does that mean we need to mandate whatever next year's COVID vaccine variant looks like? The big difference to me with those vaccinations that are required for some things (entering public schools being the most visible), is that they are proven to give essentially lifetime (or near lifetime) immunity. And they have been in use for decades in many cases, thus there is a lot of confidence in their safety. Neither of those is true for flu shots nor for the current COVID vaccines.
And let's introduce one more point about those "mandatory" vaccination requirements. They do not apply to home-schooled kids, and possibly in some states, don't apply to private schools either. So there are alternative schooling avenues for vaccine objectors in those places. And from news stories in the past about the measles vaccine, some mothers take the home-school option to avoid vaccinating their kids.
But essentially saying you can't work anywhere without a vaccine, and thus in effect, can't support yourself and family is a whole different level of government overreach in my opinion. We have just never done that in the past, and if we are about to start, I think it should be done through the full legislative process. That means introduce, debate, and vote on a bill in the House. Then send the bill over to the Senate for debate and approval there. Finally, the approved bill goes to the President for signature. Now it is a bona-fide law. And the people had their chance to lobby their representatives and influence the vote along the way. That's the way forward to me. Just having a single person such as a non-elected agency head issue an edict is a recipe for contention. And contention is what we have.
Other things in my state that are "mandatory" like wearing seat belts and carrying no-fault liability insurance coverage for automobiles were all voted on and passed by the Georgia House and Senate, then signed by the Governor at the time. They became actual laws. They were not put in place by the head of DMV (or even the Governor) just issuing a mandate. Yeah, some folks still grumble about the seat belts, but they accept it because it went through the process, was voted "yes" by the majority of their elected representatives, and everyone had their chance to fairly lobby their case. If COVID is truly an existential threat like some seem to believe, shouldn't it garner the full attention of our elected representatives who then act together to craft a new law? If they can pass stimulus checks in a few days, then surely something as big as nationwide COVID vaccine mandates could get debate and a vote in a few days as well. Perhaps one reason that has not happened yet is that those pushing for the mandate fear it may prove too unpopular to get passed. If that is true, then what game are we really playing here?
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First off, if vaccination helped reduce the spread, there should have been some sort of correlation with increased vaccination rates and reduction in cases. The opposite seems to be true.
That's because Delta is much more contagious than the original bug. We had no cases of Covid previously, but when Delta hit our area, in just a matter of weeks it took out every single unvaccinated employee of our club. I've seen waves of flu, colds, stomach bugs... I've never seen anything do this before.
Make no mistake: Delta is hella contagious! Old Covid rules (6 feet of social distancing, 15 minutes in the same room) simply don't apply - or didn't with us anyway.
That said, we're done! Every employee is either vaccinated or has had the disease. And I think that's true for our county, where the numbers have been falling steadily over the last few weeks. Hopefully we're over the hump.
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This article is a peer reviewed article published in a mainstream scientific journal that uses a very large data sample:
http://europepmc.org/article/MED/34591202
If this article is correct, and there is no correlation between rate of vaccination and rate of infections, then, IMO, there is very little argument for vaccination status to be a public health concern-or a matter that anyone else really needs to know about me. And there should be very little concern on my part whether or not those around me are vaccinated.
You could argue that the data is skewed-and in some places it may be-but from what I read on here testing practices and reporting vary widely from place to place, yet this attempt at a scientific study shows consistent results across the board. Do we consider science and stats, or just our feelings?
Someone compared the vaccine to fall protection. Years ago, I worked where we had a task that had us 5 feet off the floor-requiring fall protection in a manufacturing facility. I was told to use a harness and to anchor to a certain point. By my math, using that anchor point would have put my feet around 6 feet below the concrete floor before my harness arrested my fall. I told my boss I would not wear the harness and increase my chances of tripping and falling until he provided an anchor point that would actually protect me. He never reprimanded me for not wearing a harness. The argument exists that the vaccine could protect me from a serious disease at some level of risk. If the above linked study is true, then the argument does not exist that vaccination provides any protection for those around me-so insisting that others get vaccinated to protect you makes little sense.
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Here it is (from the CDC): https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/pneumo/public/index.html (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/pneumo/public/index.html). I didn't know it existed either until I stumbled upon it searching for adult vaccines. It is for a specific type of pneumonia, but there is a vaccine for it nonetheless.
That was on the list of "things" I had to get done before my Kidney Transplant.
The version up here is called "Prevnar 13", and straight pneumonia is just one of the things it protects you from.
It is recommended for those over 50.
Chris.
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Do we consider science and stats, or just our feelings?
In my case I'm considering neither. I'm just reporting on how we're dealing with Covid as a business - the topic of this thread. I'll leave the conversations on statistics, ethics, etc. to others.
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The problem with that concept is the way the testing numbers are being generated certainly makes it LOOK like being vaccinated reduces risk of getting the virus. But, there's a huge problem with how those numbers are calculated. First off, if vaccination helped reduce the spread, there should have been some sort of correlation with increased vaccination rates and reduction in cases. The opposite seems to be true.
Brian,
Could you share your sources for the assertion made above? That seems like rather a bold claim to make.
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The vaccines will provide protection for 90%+ of the population from getting sick enough to require hospitalization, and they *do* reduce the incidence of infections but not by the same percentage. Folks like Gen Powell, being 84 with multiple, serious co-morbidity illnesses, are part the at 10% who will not do as well as younger vaccine recipients and those with fewer or less serious co-morbidities. Vaccination reduces the amount of time an infected, asymptomatic person sheds virus, on the order of nearly 1/3 (~3 days instead of 8-9 days) and that reduces exposure to others.
So since this is about business... here's what comes down from our shop: if you're not vaccinated you will not be dispatched for work and you can't work indoors in our office, shop or in client premises. We require our employees to comply with company policy, state or county health orders, or venue/client requirements, whichever are more stringent, any time a worker is on the clock or otherwise represents the company. Workers who lie about their status, or falsify vaccination documents will be terminated.
We can't stay in business without healthy workers and it's a requirement of OSHA that we promote and provide a safe and healthy workplace. I'm not sure what folks don't understand about this.
Finally, the comment about a fall arrest harness not being an 'internal' thing... true, but failing to use one when working at height shows several things: first, a disregard for personal safety; next, a disregard for the safety of others in that falling humans can land on other humans; and a creation of a false equivalency. If choices you make for yourself effect only and exclusively oneself, great, but in *public* health, it's not just about the individual, it's about the common health and welfare. And again, if you don't give a rats ass about yourself, get your shot because there are millions of folks who CANNOT TAKE IT no matter how much they might want it. Reduce your likelihood of being "Typhoid Larry" or "Corona Connie".
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This article is a peer reviewed article published in a mainstream scientific journal that uses a very large data sample:
http://europepmc.org/article/MED/34591202
{...}
Two important things to note:
- While the European Journal of Epidemiology is certainly well-respected and peer-reviewed, this "article" was published in the journal's "correspondence" section (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10654-021-00808-7), which is not peer reviewed. Another indication that this wasn't peer-reviewed is that it was "Received 2021 Aug 17; Accepted 2021 Sep 9" (peer review typically takes one or more months).
- I'm pretty sure that if this were submitted as a Stats 101 assignment it would get a failing grade. The data in Fig. 1 appears to be somewhat hand-picked (e.g. the inclusion criteria was set up in such a way that a significant number of EU countries, including nearly half of the G7, are absent from the dataset), and the spattery-looking graph that results seems intended to confuse (particularly the decision to include a regression line which, while likely mathematically correct, is clearly some kind of sick joke). Moreover, despite what appears to be an attempt at obfuscation (using the phrase "largely similar" in a statistical analysis is so weaselly I'm surprised anyone would print it), the data displayed in Fig. 2 appears to directly contradict the assertions being made: both the median and upper quartile per capita cases are clearly trending lower as as vaccination rates trend higher.
(Why am I reminded of a Mark Twain quote?)
-Russ
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Just found this interesting article about the OSHA Vaccine Mandate Rule: https://www.lawfareblog.com/whats-status-biden-administrations-workplace-vaccine-mandate (https://www.lawfareblog.com/whats-status-biden-administrations-workplace-vaccine-mandate). It goes over the current status and some of the history behind the rule's idea. It also explains some of the potential rough patches that exist for actually implementing the rule.
I also believe that if the rule is actually implemented and enforced in the next 6 months or so, it does not survive the next national election in the U.S. Most certainly the folks adversely impacted by it are not going to be happy, and even some vaccinated folks, who are nonetheless against such mandates will also not be pleased. 2022 could be an interesting year.
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Wow, you guys have been busy on this subject. I was waiting for others to chime in before I brought my newest data to the party.
Story Time!!!
Guess who finally got sick after two years of being disease/virus-free? This guy :) !!!!! And guess what it was???? Covid!!!!! And guess how I got it??? Well, your guess is as good as mine... I have been following the same routine for two years now. I observe the rules and mandates ( sans getting jabbed ) and never got sick. I and my wife went to Ross, which was perhaps the first time in a very long time that the two of us went anywhere together, we both got covid about a week later. We both wore masks, I was a good boy yadda, yadda. That is the only guess I can think of?
How was it? Let's put it this way, I have had colds worse than this. I have had flu's that make covid seem like a bug bite where flu's would be compared as a rattlesnake bite. For me, covid was weak sauce and I AM SO GLAD I DIDN"T GET THE VACCINE!!!! I still can't smell 100%, but other than a headache for a few days, a very small fever on the first noted night, and loss of smell, it was not much more than a very weak cold. I never had to take decongestants, I didn't need Nyquil, all I needed was Asprin. The one thing I can say is a downer is the persistence of it. I am now 3 weeks post positive test, and I still have diminished sense of smell, a very slight cough, and minor sniffles ( when I say slight and minor, I mean almost so innocuous that others would be hard-pressed to know I was sick at all ).
So I am back at work and I am not EVER going to Vaccinate for ANY mandate. If it comes at me like that, I am out.
Some things I learned while I was taking a short required vaccation:
1. There is a possibility that deaths are not related to covid at all, but due to the treatment methods used in hospitals. The drug Remdesivir is one of a couple of drugs that are being used to treat severe condition covid patients in the hospital. Remdsivere is a drug that has a very sordid history. In one trial 53% of patients died from its use. It was initially used to treat Ebola but was since dropped as it had a mortality rate that exceeded the placebo mortality rate of Ebola patients. Read up on Remdisevere. It appears to be one of only two drugs used for the treatment of covid patients who are admitted into the hospital.
2. No one knows crap and they don't tell you anything useful. Upon initial results, I received a call from the county health board. More or less, it was quarantine, how do you feel and get a negative test before you re-integrate..... I go 10 days after my first result to get a go back to work clearance, Keep in mind I have little or no symptoms, I tell them I am just looking for a follow-up test. They test me and it comes back negative a couple of days later. I am getting antsy to go back to work and it is now 14 days post initial result, and I go to take another test and tell them the same thing, I just need to go back to work... Not a word... Not a single health official, nurse, test administrator, no one, told me that if I was good after 10 days and I still test positive, that I can return to work. My boss calls me on what would have been my 14th day and says he found out via a UCSB employee that they go by the CDC rules of ten days and no need for medication. Look into that and see if I apply and I can come back to work if I do. I find it buried deep in menus on the CDC page. The synopsis is that if you have been quarantined for 10 days, have no symptoms that require medication for two days, and are showing signs of obvious health improvement, you can return to work.
3. The covid test can pop positive for as long as three months after your initial contraction! This does not mean you are contagious, only that you still have viral media in your system. The CDC says that after 10 days of sickness, your covid proteins are likely to not have any virility and likely are not infectious. I.E. after 10 days, you are no longer infectious and if your symptoms are reducing, you should be good to go about your day.
No one at my work has become infected. I work with these people every day, so perhaps I dodged a bullet? I was sick before I went to get a test. I went to work Tuesday and noticed a slight sniffle and weak cough ( very mild cold symptoms ), went to work Wednesday and had a fever late that night, went the next morning to get a test since it was my day off, went to work Friday since nothing had gotten any worse and no fever. Got my test result Friday evening and told the boss the bad news the next morning. So for 3 days, I was around my co-workers and was sick. So that tells you how well I follow the rules. I went back to work last Thursday the 14th. Which would have been exactly two weeks after I went in to test. No one else has come up positive for covid that I know who has been in my circle of life.
They cannot mandate this vaccine. So many people will walkout, the economy will die. The legal fallout will simply consume the system. It will cause an unfathomable fallout that will absolutely create hell for us all. Until we can get a straight answer from anyone of credible status until they find out the reason only people in hospitals die from covid ( that was partly tongue in cheek ), we are being human pin bags. When they have a true working vaccine, we find out that Remdisivere is not what is ACTUALLY killing people in hospitals, and a clear objective path to the end game, there will be resistance from people. Some will roll over, some will be gung-ho, but there will be just as many that say hell no.
Just follow the rules and my suggestion is to wait on mandating 100% vaccination in your business until you have legal recourse. Mandating and giving your staff ultimatums is a quick way to find the ugly way around the legal system. Chicago PD, Southwest and a few others are an example. It is not going well. It won't go well
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Your anecdotal experience is not "proof" of anything other than you were fortunate to have a mild case. It's killed 8 people I was personally acquainted with and hospitalized at least a dozen more coworkers and acquaintances, 2 of them TWICE (surviving does not make you immune to reinfection).
I had it in Feb 2020, most likely from working with a Broadway road show where "an illness" went through the cast and crew, hospitalizing one cast member in the city prior to ours. About a week later I'm getting sick and 2 days later I'm sicker than I recall ever being. Lost some of my taste/smell but didn't realize it at the time and seriously considered going to the hospital because I was having trouble breathing... wondering who I knew with a albuterol inhaler...
So *MY* anecdote is no less valid than yours, Luke. If you think it's a joke I invite you to trade places with any one of my late friends. Tell me then it's bullshit and I'll buy the beer.
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I observe the rules and mandates ( sans getting jabbed ) and never got sick. I and my wife went to Ross, which was perhaps the first time in a very long time that the two of us went anywhere together, we both got covid about a week later. We both wore masks, I was a good boy yadda, yadda. That is the only guess I can think of?
Your mask isn't to protect you, it's to protect others in case you are the sick one. You protect yourself by protecting others, basically.
Most likely you came into contact with somebody who was infected and not wearing a mask.
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{...} Mandating and giving your staff ultimatums is a quick way to find the ugly way around the legal system. {...}
Culturally, I find this fascinating. Most of the published legal opinions on the subject in Canada (including from organized labour (https://www.afl.org/_just_get_the_damn_shot)) have concluded that employee vaccine mandates are, at least for the time being, perfectly legal.
{...} And how do we handle folks who have had previous adverse reactions to vaccines? {...}
I'm not sure if this applies the same way in the US or not, but in Canada people who are medically unable to be vaccinated are seen as having a medical disability, and therefore their employer has a duty to accommodate them.
-Russ
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We can go back and forth all day about what's right for you and what's right for me, but we will never come to a proper or conclusive answer as to what is right for EVERYONE.
I can ask you to study, read up and look into things that you neglect to do so or even acknowledge. The Remdisivere thing was not even addressed by any of you. I'm not an asshole, I just ask a lot more questions than some of you perhaps? I'm not saying that Remdisivere is the cause of death with some of your friends and family, but there is some concern that should be applied to it. Do your homework. Read beyond what the press tells you.
If the masks don't protect you, the vaccine doesn't 100% protect you and anything else you do is not really solid either, then it can be said that nothing is a magic bullet. The question is then what are we actually clamoring for? In my case, I had good reason to believe that I am not in need of worry about Covid anything. Turns out that is true. That may not be the case for you or others. I respect that, I play by the rules, have been. Our experiences are different for sure, which is to say that the best answer to solve the problem is also not one or the other.
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I'm not an asshole,
Completely independent of this entire discussion…. where I come from, that’s not a self assigned character trait.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Fair point! Here's my reasoning, approximately in order of importance:
- I wanted to reduce my chances of getting severely ill and/or dying (which vaccines, particularly the mRNA vaccines, have been demonstrated to do, even against Delta)
- I wanted to reduce my chances of becoming infected and then getting other people infected (because if I don't get infected I can't infect someone else)
- The demonstrated, increased risks associated with the vaccines (again, particularly the mRNA vaccines) are substantially outweighed their demonstrated benefits (something along the lines of a bookie offering a bet with 1:99 odds but a 9:1 payout)
In truth, as relieved as I felt when I got my shot, my greatest feelings of relief came the day my wife got hers. She was the one I was most likely to pass the virus on to if I had someone gotten infected, so her getting vaccinated meant that my chances of accidentally killing her with COVID-19 dropped to practically nothing.
Typically both (although, to be clear, masking and social distancing isn't nearly 99.99% effective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 transmission, especially indoors).
Your math is right, but your understanding of how probability works isn't. In probability, going from 99% to 99.75% is a massive difference.
If the chances of survival without vaccination are 99%, this means that 1% of people who get infected will die. If a vaccine reduces the likelihood of death by even 50% to produce a survival rate of 99.5%, suddenly only 0.5% of people who get infected will die. If you spread these percentages across the population of the United States, the unvaccinated scenario would result in the deaths of ~3.3 million Americans, while the vaccinated scenario would result in only ~1.7 million deaths (or ~1.6 million fewer than the unvaccinated scenario).
Of course, the real numbers are even more stark: even against Delta, the vaccine is at least 99% effective at preventing death, which increases the survival rate to at least 99.99%. This means that 0.01% will still die, but across the American population this would drop the total number of deaths from ~3.3 million to only ~33,000 people; that's literally 3+ million lives saved. And all this is just for deaths; the vaccines have similar (although lower) effectiveness as preventing infection, illness, and serious illness as well.
-Russ
If everybody had gooten their shots when they first had the chance we could have been done with this by now.
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There is ZERO evidence to support that theory though. It is IMPOSSIBLE to even calculate that possibility.
The Big Government wants you to so they can reward you for your good behavior.
Two weeks now post returning to work, no covid cases have been contracted that could even be remotely traced back to me. My circle is rolling all 100's.
If everybody stopped driving, stopped drinking, stopped smoking, stopped everything, we wouldn't have global warming and a death count that is about on par with the current covid numbers. If we stopped doing a lot of things... If we did a lot of things... If we didn't do a lot of things.
Statements such as " If we all just jumped on the wagon " is the polarization we are facing right now. For every single one of you who is adamantly pushing for vaccination, there is just as many saying hell no, and there are always those in the middle, who are the sheep who just do what they are told.
We are now talking about a drug that they want to put in our children to nearly a mandated level, of which when asked what the long-term side effects could be the answer is we don't know, but we will in about 5 years... We are putting a carriage before a horse if we just say F*&k it and go for 100% jab rates.
The evil side of it is that 1% of those who contract may die. We are now finding out that there are possibly deaths that are not even being caused by covid, but by the treatment itself! We are now at a point where it is more about not contracting. I made it two years and caught it from god knows what or who? If I can do that, so can someone who is genuinely at risk and in fear of contraction. Those individuals can choose to stay home, reduce contact, change careers and work at home, a whole plethora of options at their disposal. just as many as those who are not at risk have. It is 50/50.
I guess what I am saying is, WHAT IF, the vaccination turns out to be a much larger problem than what it solves. We already know it doesn't stop contraction, it reduces the chance of it. We already know if it doesn't stop contraction, it only reduces the symptoms, which may lead to you being a super spreader as you run around with limited or no real marked symptoms. Now we have thousands upon thousands running around thinking all is hunky-dory, spreading the virus like it's Christmas spirit and we have no idea what the long-term side effects are. We know people have died from the vaccine, I know of one person directly who ended up with grand-mal seizures from it, and there is now no denying that improper administration of the vaccine has caused blood clots and other complications. A one size fits all solution is not the answer.
And for all that verbiage, all I am saying is you do you. You choose what is best for you, don't tell me what I should do, should have done, or would have been best to have done. I will get there on my own. I got covid, it was easy for me. For some others, it was not easy. My experience does not change my outlook on this situation. It is simple. Follow the guidelines, stay away from people, wear a mask, don't throw parties, don't go to sporting events, and don't do other things that go against the grain of viral spread. If you want the vaccine, get the vaccine, but do it for you, not for anyone else. Don't preach to others that they are a fool for not jumping on the bandwagon. We don't know enough to prove anything. In 5 years we may. With any luck, it will be positive news... Right now, for ME, the potential downsides of vaccinating severely outweigh getting covid AGAIN. I am not the disease, I am not the cause of the problem, and I am not very keen to being told I am part of the problem. If everyone did exactly what the guidelines say, we would eradicate the Flu..... Oh wait, we did...
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Statements such as " If we all just jumped on the wagon " is the polarization we are facing right now. For every single one of you who is adamantly pushing for vaccination, there is just as many saying hell no, and there are always those in the middle, who are the sheep who just do what they are told.
We are now talking about a drug that they want to put in our children to nearly a mandated level, of which when asked what the long-term side effects could be the answer is we don't know, but we will in about 5 years... We are putting a carriage before a horse if we just say F*&k it and go for 100% jab rates.
This is vaccine misinformation, pure and simple, coupled with a fair bit of crazy-guy-on-the-corner paranoia.
We don't know the long term effects of the disease - we do know that one of the short term effects is an unpleasant death.
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As a business owner in the industry under discussion I plan to follow the recommendations of the medical professionals hired by our government to study and react to pandemics such as the one we are currently experiencing and I'd suggest other production business owners do much the same.
As a participant in a live audio production forum I'd strongly suggest that all posters avoid postulating their theories on medical does and don'ts unless and until they can also flash their advanced degrees in immunology, virology or public health science along with evidence of their continuing and current participation in those professional disciplines.
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As a business owner in the industry under discussion I plan to follow the recommendations of the medical professionals hired by our government to study and react to pandemics such as the one we are currently experiencing and I'd suggest other production business owners do much the same.
As a participant in a live audio production forum I'd strongly suggest that all posters avoid postulating their theories on medical does and don'ts unless and until they can also flash their advanced degrees in immunology, virology or public health science along with evidence of their continuing and current participation in those professional disciplines.
Well said sir!
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It's gettin' a lil wobbly around here...
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The vaccination/inoculation saga is surely a long hard story looking back thru history.
Some of you guys have probably seen this one... https://www.armyheritage.org/soldier-stories-information/a-deadly-scourge-smallpox-during-the-revolutionary-war/
I can't imagine what a gut wrenching a decision it must have been for George Washington to order smallpox inoculations for the troops.
The inoculation itself was expected to kill 2%.
And evidently was pure political dynamite, ....against the law in Virginia, etc.
Sad, tough stuff, to have to make calls/policies for everyone...not a job i'd want....
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While this thread has been a continuous complex waveform oscillating between minimus of utter stupidity, masquerading as intelligence, coupled with selfishness, and maximus of heightened awareness coupled with brotherly love, its overwhelming high value for our industry is the fact that it has informed us of certain names that we must never, ever trust to do anything other than what makes themselves comfortable regardless of consequence to others. Beware them, in any and every context that they are involved.
It's alternatively uplifting and profoundly sickening.
Hunter Thompson kind of nailed it:
“The music (edit: audio) business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.”
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It's (past) time to put this one to bed...