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Title: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Josh Paquette on January 04, 2022, 01:16:53 AM
Hi all, long time lurker first time poster looking for some input on fleshing out my next PA.

Over the summer I made the upgrade from my Yamaha club rig to a pair of EAW JF260s and SB180s powered by a pair of crown K2s. One of the sellers also kicked in a free pair of KF300Iís in need a crossover repair that I just had refurbished to spec. Per the advice of the repair tech, my plan is to biamp the KF300s with the K2s and use my behringer dcx2496 for processing until I can upgrade to a better DSP or power soft amps.

Given that the KF300s are close to 100 pounds and donít have a pole mount, does anyone have suggestions on how to get these boxes high enough stacked on top of the subs? Iím considering the idea of building spacer boxes that double as cable storage Iíve read about on here. Also, any budget friendly used amp recommendations for powering the SB180s? Ive looked at the QSC plx3602, plx 3002, and crown macrotech MA2400 so far.

Thanks and happy new year,
Josh
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Rick Powell on January 04, 2022, 08:42:43 AM
Hereís an older thread about a PSW member who was looking to add a pole mount to their KF300ís. At 100 lbs, the KF300 is not the friendliest pole mount load, but there have been manufactured speakers with pole mounts up to the 135 lb. range.

https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=156529.0

There are several other ways to get height that Iíve used or seen. The purpose-built road case, scaffolding, adding and stacking more subs to reach the desired height, an aluminum work bench (available at some hardware stores) with legs, that will accommodate the size of your subs and tops, plastic milk cartons (tacky). Depending on the height and stability, some solutions may require ratchet straps or other means to stabilize the tops to the subs.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: brian maddox on January 04, 2022, 09:21:21 AM
Hi all, long time lurker first time poster looking for some input on fleshing out my next PA.

Over the summer I made the upgrade from my Yamaha club rig to a pair of EAW JF260s and SB180s powered by a pair of crown K2s. One of the sellers also kicked in a free pair of KF300Iís in need a crossover repair that I just had refurbished to spec. Per the advice of the repair tech, my plan is to biamp the KF300s with the K2s and use my behringer dcx2496 for processing until I can upgrade to a better DSP or power soft amps.

Given that the KF300s are close to 100 pounds and donít have a pole mount, does anyone have suggestions on how to get these boxes high enough stacked on top of the subs? Iím considering the idea of building spacer boxes that double as cable storage Iíve read about on here. Also, any budget friendly used amp recommendations for powering the SB180s? Ive looked at the QSC plx3602, plx 3002, and crown macrotech MA2400 so far.

Thanks and happy new year,
Josh

Every KF300 I have ever used has had a pole mount, And there have been at least a 100 in 3 0r 4 different version. Perhaps yours are an install version?

At any rate, you should be able to add a pole mount, just make sure it's a sturdy metal version. I've done literally hundreds of shows with these with the larger version of the classic Ultimate Tripod Stand [I think they are 99s now?]. It was at the upper limit of the stand's weight capacity, but still safe. PITA to lift up on the stand, but the combo works well otherwise. With the metal pole mount, the standard way to lift these was to put the box on the floor upside down, insert the stand, and then lay it over on it's side and "Iwo Jima" up the combo, preferably with two people. And when I say standard way, I mean all I said to any crew I was working with was "ready to Iwo Jima those 300s?" and they all knew what I was talking about.

It's also a fully flyable box, but I suspect that's more than you're willing to explore right now.

Good Luck!

p.s. IIRC the "I" version of the box was actually a little lighter because it lacked some of the heavy passive crossover that the "e" version added later.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Josh Paquette on January 04, 2022, 12:36:29 PM
Thanks for the tips - this gives me some ideas to work with. These are the isp install version that have passive crossovers and ep4 inputs, which I changed to NL4. Iíll be strapping them down in any situation as I wouldnít want to take any risks at their weight.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 04, 2022, 12:56:22 PM
Hernia truss and back brace.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 04, 2022, 02:21:03 PM
I don't know all the ins and outs of which version you have, but be aware that the high frequency driver in some KF300's is in the middle of the box. That means you need to get the whole box higher than you would think to get the HF over people's heads.

Just one more little detail to think about.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Mal Brown on January 04, 2022, 04:28:25 PM
baker's skaff.  rattle can or powder coat black if industrial yellow isn't your thing...  lay one of a couple of subs down, up goes the lf.  climb onto to the sub(s) with mother guy.  Boost to the Skaff...

I do this with my trap40 over la400's rig.  Another vintage 100 lb box.  Lovely sounding but dang, a pita to move.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on January 04, 2022, 05:28:13 PM
baker's skaff.  rattle can or powder coat black if industrial yellow isn't your thing...  lay one of a couple of subs down, up goes the lf.  climb onto to the sub(s) with mother guy.  Boost to the Skaff...

I do this with my trap40 over la400's rig.  Another vintage 100 lb box.  Lovely sounding but dang, a pit amp to move.

Had to read that 3-4 times to figure what in the world you were talking about.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 04, 2022, 06:05:09 PM
Had to read that 3-4 times to figure what in the world you were talking about.
'Scuse me while I kiss this guy......
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: brian maddox on January 04, 2022, 06:11:37 PM
baker's skaff.  rattle can or powder coat black if industrial yellow isn't your thing...  lay one of a couple of subs down, up goes the lf.  climb onto to the sub(s) with mother guy.  Boost to the Skaff...

I do this with my trap40 over la400's rig.  Another vintage 100 lb box.  Lovely sounding but dang, a pit amp to move.

Things I don't miss...

6 hands for the "Console Party"

Stacking PA
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Chris Hindle on January 04, 2022, 08:11:09 PM
Things I don't miss...

6 hands for the "Console Party"

Stacking PA
Try 8 for the "real" boards.......
MTL-4 and MTH-4 weren't a lot of fun to stack either....
Chris.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Steve-White on January 05, 2022, 08:27:40 AM
Josh, if you elect to install the flange receptacles and pole mount.  Putting the flange at the CG point makes for some better times.

Simply balance the enclosure on a piece of 3/4" or larger sch 40 PVC or any suitable object on fore/aft and LR axis to determine the CG and drill there for the flanges.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Mal Brown on January 05, 2022, 08:44:21 AM
Skaff...  sorry.  I learned that term from an old timer.... thought it was common.  My bad.  Scaffold.  Bakers scaffold is the 2' wide version.  I paid something like $190 for each of 2 sets.   As I live in a wind tunnel ground stacking is kind of a way of life at least for folks at my level.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: brian maddox on January 05, 2022, 10:26:44 AM
Try 8 for the "real" boards.......
MTL-4 and MTH-4 weren't a lot of fun to stack either....
Chris.

Oh, for me it was usually 4Ks and 4KMs and The 6 human count was my absolute minimum. As in, "If you can't get me 5 guys/strong girls [plus me], we're not having a show because I straight up refuse to hurt someone." And that came from pushing it one time and actually hurting someone, albeit not super seriously. 8 humans was definitely preferable.

I do remember some particular misery with a Paragon, but that's another story....  :)
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: brian maddox on January 05, 2022, 10:29:00 AM
Josh, if you elect to install the flange receptacles and pole mount.  Putting the flange at the CG point makes for some better times.

Simply balance the enclosure on a piece of 3/4" or larger sch 40 PVC or any suitable object on fore/aft and LR axis to determine the CG and drill there for the flanges.

^^this

The CG on these isn't far off the "center" but getting it dead on will make your life much better.

And you DEFINiTELY want metal flange receptacles. The first gen KF300s came with plastic ones, which broke very easily.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: John L Nobile on January 05, 2022, 10:40:00 AM
Oh, for me it was usually 4Ks and 4KMs and The 6 human count was my absolute minimum. As in, "If you can't get me 5 guys/strong girls [plus me], we're not having a show because I straight up refuse to hurt someone." And that came from pushing it one time and actually hurting someone, albeit not super seriously. 8 humans was definitely preferable.

I do remember some particular misery with a Paragon, but that's another story....  :)

EZ-Tilts sure made it a lot easier with less hands. I thought they were way too expensive until I saw my first one in action and found that it was at the perfect height for me.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Sam Costa on January 05, 2022, 10:53:56 AM
Hi all, long time lurker first time poster looking for some input on fleshing out my next PA.

Over the summer I made the upgrade from my Yamaha club rig to a pair of EAW JF260s and SB180s powered by a pair of crown K2s. One of the sellers also kicked in a free pair of KF300Iís in need a crossover repair that I just had refurbished to spec. Per the advice of the repair tech, my plan is to biamp the KF300s with the K2s and use my behringer dcx2496 for processing until I can upgrade to a better DSP or power soft amps.

Given that the KF300s are close to 100 pounds and donít have a pole mount, does anyone have suggestions on how to get these boxes high enough stacked on top of the subs? Iím considering the idea of building spacer boxes that double as cable storage Iíve read about on here. Also, any budget friendly used amp recommendations for powering the SB180s? Ive looked at the QSC plx3602, plx 3002, and crown macrotech MA2400 so far.

Thanks and happy new year,
Josh

Josh,
I have the KF300 for one of my rigs. However, my KFís had pole mounts from factory. For this rig, I use the SB250 Subs and I ended up drilling out installing the top hat on both subs for the pole mounts, then place the speaker pole (metal gator works poles, donít use plastic!) mount the KF and your good to go. This should get you the height you need and still being safe.

I know Iíve some photos available somewhere of this setup, Iíll try and locate them.

K2 might work ok, I have QSC 4.0 powering mine with the UX3600 crossover and it sounds great.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Doug Fowler on January 05, 2022, 11:06:23 AM
Oh, for me it was usually 4Ks and 4KMs and The 6 human count was my absolute minimum. As in, "If you can't get me 5 guys/strong girls [plus me], we're not having a show because I straight up refuse to hurt someone." And that came from pushing it one time and actually hurting someone, albeit not super seriously. 8 humans was definitely preferable.

I do remember some particular misery with a Paragon, but that's another story....  :)

There was enough misery with Paragon aside from lifting it. 
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Josh Paquette on January 05, 2022, 11:08:12 AM
^^this

The CG on these isn't far off the "center" but getting it dead on will make your life much better.

And you DEFINiTELY want metal flange receptacles. The first gen KF300s came with plastic ones, which broke very easily.

I broke the plastic top hat on one my JF260s and had it replaced with a metal when I had the kf300s serviced. The tech was against putting a mount on the 300s though due to the weight but I might do it anyway.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: brian maddox on January 05, 2022, 11:20:17 AM
I don't know all the ins and outs of which version you have, but be aware that the high frequency driver in some KF300's is in the middle of the box. That means you need to get the whole box higher than you would think to get the HF over people's heads.

Just one more little detail to think about.

This is correct. Although it's just a bit offset towards the top of the box, it's basically in the middle.

interestingly, the latest Z version of the box seems to have reversed this orientation between the MF and HF and put the HF horn on the top of the box. Learn something new every day.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 05, 2022, 12:17:51 PM
There was enough misery with Paragon aside from lifting it.

What do you call a Paragon with all the covers in place?

Unused.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Sam Costa on January 05, 2022, 01:14:31 PM
Josh,
I have the KF300 for one of my rigs. However, my KFís had pole mounts from factory. For this rig, I use the SB250 Subs and I ended up drilling out installing the top hat on both subs for the pole mounts, then place the speaker pole (metal gator works poles, donít use plastic!) mount the KF and your good to go. This should get you the height you need and still being safe.

I know Iíve some photos available somewhere of this setup, Iíll try and locate them.

K2 might work ok, I have QSC 4.0 powering mine with the UX3600 crossover and it sounds great.

Josh.
I found it. Here's my KF300 rig with SB600 subs.

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/3B07DF9E-924D-4B91-B814-0FB7A7AD9941_zpsebliehla.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/fullforcesound/p/4c1c4663-e914-47f9-9645-bdebd57a8dd6)
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Brian Bolly on January 05, 2022, 01:44:26 PM
I broke the plastic top hat on one my JF260s and had it replaced with a metal when I had the kf300s serviced. The tech was against putting a mount on the 300s though due to the weight but I might do it anyway.

Penn-Elcom makes a nice die-cast 1-3/8" with M20 threads so you can use either a regular or threaded pole (p/n M1557/M20).  It's not so critical on the top side, but on the sub side having the M20 threads is nice to eliminate any wobble.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Dave Garoutte on January 05, 2022, 02:35:06 PM
Penn-Elcom makes a nice die-cast 1-3/8" with M20 threads so you can use either a regular or threaded pole (p/n M1557/M20).  It's not so critical on the top side, but on the sub side having the M20 threads is nice to eliminate any wobble.
In general, I don't think the M20 style is as strong as the pole cup.
The stability is based on the contact area of the pole, which is small.
That said, the above mentioned socket looks like a nice solution.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Tim Hite on January 05, 2022, 02:48:00 PM
Thanks for the tips - this gives me some ideas to work with. These are the isp install version that have passive crossovers and ep4 inputs, which I changed to NL4. Iíll be strapping them down in any situation as I wouldnít want to take any risks at their weight.

Here are the stands you will want:
https://www.k-m.de/en/products/speaker-lighting-and-monitor-stands-and-holders/speaker-stands/213-speaker-stand-black?c=189

They take my KF300e with ATM flyway bolted on.

Get a UX processor and you're all set. Great sounding boxes but definitely a two man job to get them on stands.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 05, 2022, 02:55:56 PM
EZ-Tilts sure made it a lot easier with less hands. I thought they were way too expensive until I saw my first one in action and found that it was at the perfect height for me.

Great if you are on an arena floor, not so much if you are on a 2' high FOH riser.

Mac
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: doug johnson2 on January 05, 2022, 03:02:05 PM
I run Kf300z, the can with a factory stand cup.  I use them with both stands and sub poles.  I can get them up myself as long as they are at height.  I typically stand on my sub or the stage.  I also have Baker's Scaffold that I use a my KF695s.  I have also used the small folding painter scaffold.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on January 05, 2022, 03:05:28 PM
Great if you are on an arena floor, not so much if you are on a 2' high FOH riser.

Mac

Or if you're going into a booth.
Had to do the six people dance with my Pro6 a while back.


KF300z are great, I sometimes miss selling mine. Didn't have too many gigs suitable for their output and someone offered good money for them, so I let them go.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: doug johnson2 on January 05, 2022, 03:07:02 PM
[quote author=brian maddox link=topic=176528.msg1630549#msg1630549 date=1641399617

interestingly, the latest Z version of the box seems to have reversed this orientation between the MF and HF and put the HF horn on the top of the box. Learn something new every day.
[/quote]
The Zs are high/mid/low top to bottom.  The high and mid horns are a single piece of molded
ABS
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 05, 2022, 04:46:53 PM
[quote author=brian maddox link=topic=176528.msg1630549#msg1630549 date=1641399617

interestingly, the latest Z version of the box seems to have reversed this orientation between the MF and HF and put the HF horn on the top of the box. Learn something new every day.

The Zs are high/mid/low top to bottom.  The high and mid horns are a single piece of molded
ABS

There's an echo in here.....


Yeah, I don't know when it changed, but I think MOST KF300's you'll see in the wild had the HF in the middle.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: brian maddox on January 05, 2022, 06:31:10 PM
There's an echo in here.....


Yeah, I don't know when it changed, but I think MOST KF300's you'll see in the wild had the HF in the middle.

Well if you look back over this thread you'll see I managed to repeat my own advice to use a Metal Flange like 10 posts later.

To be clear, I didn't do this for emphasis. I simply forgot I wrote it like 24 hours before

So I'm living in my own one man echo chamber because I can't freakin' remember what I've said....  :) To be clear, my new Goldfish LifeTM is actually quite exciting and new every day. And I never get bored!
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Steve-White on January 05, 2022, 08:42:10 PM
Well if you look back over this thread you'll see I managed to repeat my own advice to use a Metal Flange like 10 posts later.

To be clear, I didn't do this for emphasis. I simply forgot I wrote it like 24 hours before

So I'm living in my own one man echo chamber because I can't freakin' remember what I've said....  :) To be clear, my new Goldfish LifeTM[/sup ]is actually quite exciting and new every day. And I never get bored!

You're not alone Brian  :)
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Josh Paquette on January 06, 2022, 07:07:45 PM
Josh.
I found it. Here's my KF300 rig with SB600 subs.

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/3B07DF9E-924D-4B91-B814-0FB7A7AD9941_zpsebliehla.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/fullforcesound/p/4c1c4663-e914-47f9-9645-bdebd57a8dd6)

Looks great! I think I'm going to just install the pole mounts, seems to make the most sense with trying to get the hf driver high enough
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 09, 2022, 05:29:06 AM
Josh.
I found it. Here's my KF300 rig with SB600 subs.



Sam,  What is blocking the front of those QSC amps and don't you worry with the rack facing the audience someone will fiddle with something?

Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 09, 2022, 09:42:41 AM

Sam,  What is blocking the front of those QSC amps and don't you worry with the rack facing the audience someone will fiddle with something?

I'm not Sam, but in almost 30 years of doing this professionally I've never had anyone mess with equipment at a show when they were accessable like this. I've had stuff stolen and come back to an amp rack that was holdong 25 empty beer cans, but never had anyone twiddle knobs.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Chris Hindle on January 09, 2022, 10:56:39 AM
I'm not Sam, but in almost 30 years of doing this professionally I've never had anyone mess with equipment at a show when they were accessable like this. I've had stuff stolen and come back to an amp rack that was holdong 25 empty beer cans, but never had anyone twiddle knobs.

I have, a looong time ago. It cost me a set of 8 diaphragms.
Never again did I put "stuff" in "public" spaces.
For me, I would have put that rack on stage, just around the corner of the curtains.
Chris.
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Sam Costa on January 13, 2022, 12:55:33 PM

Sam,  What is blocking the front of those QSC amps and don't you worry with the rack facing the audience someone will fiddle with something?


I typically dont have anything in front of the amp rack. Being that I'm on an ipad I can walk right up if I ever happen to see someone (or kid) wanting to touch knobs and buttons. :)
 
Title: Re: Advice for KF300 rig
Post by: Mike Monte on January 13, 2022, 03:56:07 PM

Sam,  What is blocking the front of those QSC amps and don't you worry with the rack facing the audience someone will fiddle with something?

I have never had anyone "fiddle" with any of my amp racks
however
since I started mixing on an iPad I've caught a few people messing with my Q-16 on bar gigs.

It's almost like a mixing board is a magnet at a bar.

Foul-on-me for thinking that bar-flies would actually leave my gear alone.....