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 1 
 on: Today at 05:44:12 PM 
Started by Janne Lepola - Last post by Janne Lepola
It's been a while, but I'd like to drop a message on how things have gone since last post. This will be quite a long post, but hopefully these experiences will guide someone else who is considering RCF products.

First of all, I would like to thank everyone who participated and gave their insight on my original question. These four months have been exciting and now I'm able to see things clearer and understand few points which were made, as I have better perspective with the gear.

So, I was able to arrange a demo session with official importer of RCF speakers here in Finland, which was one of the best things that happened on January. Even though I was only a minor customer for them, I was treated with all the respect and enthusiasm which they most like give to big venues, such as town halls and theaters. They arranged a demo which had four different speakers set up. If I remember correctly, those were HDL-6, ART 912 (or 932, but let's say it was 912), ART 945 and NXL44. Additionally they had sub-setup as well, from 15" SUB-line to 8004.

Starting from beginning, I was really impressed by the clarity of HDL-6. It sounded stunning on the demo room. Good start, but right away as we switched to 912 it became clear why (at least cheaper) line array speakers are subpar in comparison to point-source speakers: Mid section had been missing. Just having the 912 made overall sound much richer. Still, I skipped 912 quite quickly because I was stuck with the idea of needing powerful tops for medium sized venues, so we continued to 945A. Now, this was something different!

At first 945A sounded very muffled and boomy. Just to remind, everything was set flat on EQ and none of the speakers had been calibrated at all. I wasn't really impressed, but then I tried pushing 945 and sub, and it became clear that these were some serious tops. I did some EQ'ing in order to get the idea whether these tops would have clarity instead of boominess and boxiness. Hard hi-end boost EQ with somewhat hard low-end cut did the trick and I played around with couple of demo songs. This combination seemed to have lots of punch!

Originally I had planned that I would end up ordering TTL4A or TTW4A, but unfortunately those were not available for demo session. On the other hand, NXL44 had been put as an comparison to give impression of that kind of setting, so we moved there... and WOW. Now the sound became something I hadn't been expecting at all! The clarity was overwhelming. Stereo image changed / widened. I kept pushing and pushing, but the whole set just kept playing with stunning overall sound.

I actually laughed, as I had hoped that I would end up giving up idea of buying something that would cost ~3000€ per piece and end up buying pair of 945A for about ~1500€ per piece. Unfortunately, I was hooked by the sound of NXL44.

I did notice that 945A by itself actually had so much additional bottom that it was boosting the sub, which caused the overall boominess within the demo-room. After changing the balance of the sub against 945A it actually sounded quite good, but still by doing A/B comparison against NXL44 I couldn't shake the idea that I was going end up getting either NXL or TT -line tops, as the NXL was simply superior.

After few questions and bit of pondering I ended up ordering pair of TTL4 instead of getting those NXL right away. TT-tops had quite a long delivery time, but I chose to go that road because TT-series had been praised being superior to NXL, while at the same time they would be bit smaller and lighter, which I would appreciate while working alone. Lifting of NXL wasn't impossible, but it was quite hard because the center point of speakers was quite high, and you would need to lift the speaker over the tripod-pole. As for the subs, I chose to go with four pieces of TTS15. These subs were not available on demo session, but I chose 'em based on what I was seeing and hearing at the demo session on 8003. Giving that both had similar sizes and similar features, and given that TTS15 would be bit lighter than 8003, they would be easier to set up alone. Subs would take three months to arrive as well.

I decided that I wanted the whole set to be of TT-line, so that I would have something which would be expandable, as well as being able to control the whole set via RDNet in the future IF I would end up working on venues which would benefit from additional configuration. Additionally, I wanted my gear to be bit lighter, in order to ease up the setting up everything alone.

I was able to come up a deal with distributor to get pair of 945s temporarily in order to get my company running before TTL4s would arrive, so kudos to their sales service! This way I was able to get more professional setup for restaurant gigs and be able to start the marketing process beforehand. I had actually already been booked as an tech supplier for one well known Finnish artist, so I was going make by first presentation within that gig.

Finally that night came, but subs didn't. Delivery was late. I had to make a compromise and combine pair of Mackie SR18s with 945As and hope it would work. The gig itself wasn't too demanding, as the full house would have only about 250 guests, but I was more worried about how it would sound -- I simply wanted it to be "perfect", because we were having a re-launch of restaurant with new owners at the same time. From my perspective, there was a lot at stake! Long story short, everything went great! Now that the time had passed since the demo session, I threw those 945As in to the fire and they were A BEAST. What Mackie subs may have lacked on clarity of punch was fixed by 945As, which boosted both the low-end and gave very nice additional punch over the booming of Mackies. It worked flawlessly and I was able to push volume to my personal max without any hickups. Audience loved it! EDM afterparty worked great as well.

A month later my subs came, and at the same time I got offered a sports hall gig, which would be a disco for highshool students, hosted by youth service community. Additionally there was going to be well known rap-artist as a main star of the show. The hall was quite large, the kind of which can be used for either basketball or any other sports, and would easily hold over thousand guests if needed, but my event was going to have only about ~300 students, so it was cut by 1/3 using pullover-curtains. Still, the venue was much larger than what I would normally do. This time I got to try the subs, which looked pretty tiny against that 21 x 25 feet stage. I was bit nervous, but after trying first beats wit the subs and 945A's I was grinning so much that my face hurt. It's unbelievable how much even small subs can throw. Of course they wouldn't make your pants flutter like 2X18 cabinets, but I was getting nice low end boom and bass kicks felt amazing even ~100 feet away. I also checked that the limiter wasn't hitting too much, as I was nervous that I would be overpushing either the subs or the tops, but everything was working just great! My customer was so pleasantly surprised by the service that they booked next event right away, which is coming within few weeks. Once again I'm getting to host one more well known rap-artist, and this time I'm confident that everything will go smoothly, as the venue is bit smaller and packs the audience to the sweetspot against the stage.

That's about it for the tech side! RCF is living up to their reputation!

As for my company and business plan, everything changed in just a few months. Last time when I was active on this thread I was still hoping to reach my previous years income and my highest hope was to double the sales during at the end of first year. Within few months after the launch I had already booked my calendar for the first half of the year and was already making first reservations for the fall. At the time being I have already tripled my sales, and the time-window for the bookings for the next fall and winter are still coming up. Basically I'm already living the third year of my business plan.

Still, what comes around goes around, when it comes to income. I'm routing it all up back to the gear. Basically I'v been ordering everything from infrastructure to wireless mics, lot's of additional cables and cable bridges. It ain't a problem, as my original plan was to order all this gear over the next 18 months, but now it looks that I'm able to get most of the essentials before July. Couldn't be more happy!

So what have I learned learn?

First of all: I'm happy that I ordered TTS15 subs, but truth been told, I believe that I could have gone much cheaper by going with less. Of course this decision would have limited my venues, but for an example, that first night when I combined Mackie subs with 945As was something I wasn't expecting it to be. Combination was amazing for indoor venues, even as Mackies were inferior to RCF subs.

As for the 945As, on the demo session it was clear why they were half the price of NXL44. They didn't sound the same at all, BUT when it comes to your usual live session, instead of being able to compare 'em against something better, they are amazing set of speakers. Scott Holtzman was right, 945-series is a great option if you are considering 'em! Even though I was able to use only ART version of 'em, 945 feel like a real war horse. The value of those speakers against the price is excellent. Personally, I would love to get a pair for myself, in addition to those TTL4's which I'm still waiting to arrive. Even smaller ones, such as 932 or 912, would probably make a great addition to my inventory, and might even work better as those smaller cabinets would be easier to move around that TTL4 will ever be. There will be gigs which simply don't need the power of TTL4 and I'm already regretting a bit the fact that those tops weight almost the same as the subs!

Probably the biggest realization was how good point source speakers can be, especially volume-wise. Common sense, without real experience on the art, says that small line array with multiple speakers would give better outcome, but it's kind of amazing how much punch "small" 15" speakers, or even smaller, can handle these days. It just doesn't make sense how you can handle large hall packed with people with just two 15" tops and four 15" subs... and this is where I was about to go wrong originally, because I didn't have any experience with high end speakers which have been on the market for the past ~10 years. It's simply a whole different game when compared to your usual band speakers, which would cost only ~3000€ total. Finally I understand why speakers may cost five times more, while still having the same and size and the same specs on the paper.

TLDR: For anyone on similar situation as I was and are considering RCF: Get yourself 4 x 8003 or 4 x Sub 705, and get a pair of 945s, probably from the NX-line instead of ART . You most likely won't go wrong if you are targetting maximum capacity of 500 guests. If you head out for more get either NXL or TTL series tops and consider moving to 8004 subs or TT-line.

 2 
 on: Today at 05:34:09 PM 
Started by Bob Faulkner - Last post by Caleb Dueck
Hi Bob, I believe any DAW should work but yes there are virtual consoles (with eq, compressors etc) available at https://harrisonaudio.com/. They can get free multi-tracks for practice at https://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms/mtk/

Reaper can do this as well, live virtual mixing, just supply tracks.

 3 
 on: Today at 05:30:35 PM 
Started by Kevin Maxwell - Last post by Caleb Dueck
Kevin's description is giving me a Marty McCann flashback, JR.  His tech note about subwoofer placement relative to boundary surfaces.

I'm thinking the protruding part of the booth, 2-3 feet above the floor, is creating a phase cancellation that is transmitted structurally into the booth, which also has its own resonance(s).

This is my first thought as well, followed by horizontal pattern collapse due to the subs, I assume, being spaced horizontally under the stage.  This is a great example why going against audio recommendations to save money rarely saves money - and often costs a whole lot more to fix.  I've had this conversation with owners too many times.

 4 
 on: Today at 04:26:31 PM 
Started by Steve Ferreira - Last post by Brian Jojade
I'm not going to sit here and lie, but I think it's time to move on from Soundcraft, the question becomes to what. I need to dig a bit deeper into what's out there and what my needs are.

It's amazing how time flies. Seems like just yesterday when the Soundcraft boards came out and they were a top contender.  But they've done nothing new in a LONG time.  Sure you could buy a new of the same, but with so many other offerings out there, yeah, I'd be looking at something else.

As far as trusting the board, it's now 10 years old. For electronics, that's getting up there.  Maybe the firmware flash was enough to make it happy, but I'd be a little worried that it's going to crap out again at the worst possible moment.  If the cost of sending it in for repair is $2K, it makes no sense to do that. Put that money towards something new.

 5 
 on: Today at 03:34:16 PM 
Started by Steve Ferreira - Last post by Steve Ferreira
Update:

I got in front of the console today, formatted the internal SD Card and gave the console an update to Ver. 2.1.
The console was on for over 2 hours and I didn't notice anything weird going on. No noise or any issues whatsoever.

I'm not going to sit here and lie, but I think it's time to move on from Soundcraft, the question becomes to what. I need to dig a bit deeper into what's out there and what my needs are.

 6 
 on: Today at 03:23:25 PM 
Started by Kevin Maxwell - Last post by Helge A Bentsen
Put a sub in the booth?

 7 
 on: Today at 01:53:56 PM 
Started by Kevin Maxwell - Last post by John Roberts {JR}
Kevin's description is giving me a Marty McCann flashback, JR.  His tech note about subwoofer placement relative to boundary surfaces.

I'm thinking the protruding part of the booth, 2-3 feet above the floor, is creating a phase cancellation that is transmitted structurally into the booth, which also has its own resonance(s).

@Kevin - yeah, this is one of those "doc, it hurts when I do *this*" and doc says "then don't don that."  The correction for the problem the club owner created will be expensive.  Not correcting it will be expensive in subwoofer repair costs and neighbor complaints.  If the DJ can't FEEL the LF, he/she/they are gonna turn it up, guaranteed.
Do they still make those bass seat shakers?  Maybe have the DJ sit on an extra sub facing up with a seat cover. [/joke]

JR

 8 
 on: Today at 01:46:39 PM 
Started by Kevin Maxwell - Last post by Tim McCulloch
How about a microphone out in the room to monitor SPL? Feed that mic to a RTA.

Having less bass in the sound booth sounds like a possible benefit.

JR

Kevin's description is giving me a Marty McCann flashback, JR.  His tech note about subwoofer placement relative to boundary surfaces.

I'm thinking the protruding part of the booth, 2-3 feet above the floor, is creating a phase cancellation that is transmitted structurally into the booth, which also has its own resonance(s).

@Kevin - yeah, this is one of those "doc, it hurts when I do *this*" and doc says "then don't don that."  The correction for the problem the club owner created will be expensive.  Not correcting it will be expensive in subwoofer repair costs and neighbor complaints.  If the DJ can't FEEL the LF, he/she/they are gonna turn it up, guaranteed.

 9 
 on: Today at 01:38:56 PM 
Started by Les Funk - Last post by Jonathan Kok
Proximity is a huge thing with loudspeakers (especially point source). Your current layout has the closest listener at 10' from the speaker, and your furthest at 39'. Basic loudspeaker math gives a loss of 6db per doubling of distance. So at 20', you're down 6db relative to the closest person. at 40', you're down 12db. At 60', the back of the balcony, you're down ~15db.

No wonder you have complaints.

A high centre cluster will even out the sound throughout the space by providing a more 'average' distance to your listeners. The down side is you end up with a 'voice of God' effect for the closer audience members, whereby they're looking at someone in front of them, but their voice is coming from above. Front-fill speakers helps resolve that issue.

Based on your description of the type of service you have, a stereo system offers you nothing you need. Centre cluster 110%. Probably 3x 90deg horizontal boxes @ 60deg between boxes for full 180deg coverage, you'll want probably 60deg vertical coverage to hit front to back from that height.

Balcony, I'd go 2x speakers, mounted 1/4 of the way in from the side (so each speaker covers half the balcony).

 10 
 on: Today at 01:14:47 PM 
Started by Les Funk - Last post by Les Funk
Looking for second (or multiple) opinion(s) on which design is best for the mains of our small sanctuary: L/R upgrade to existing, or change to center (cluster?) speaker.

Service Format
100 minutes with 80% spoken word and preaching from center stage. The other 20% congregational singing which is led by one of 5 teams playing hybrid wired/acoustic instruments. Guitar is wired. Drums, Piano, and Bass (amp) do not run through system except we've recently added piano mic to add a bit of volume. The team usually occupies small area of stage.

Sanctuary Design
Main seating area is 45ft wide by 39ft deep and level. Balcony is 21ft deep and rises to the back. Sanctuary peak is 20 ft. Front and back walls feature multiple angles making this room one of the best for preserving acoustical energy without slap. When empty, a person in balcony can have a regular conversation with someone on the stage.

Issues
When full, the elevated noise floor and audience absorption is causing complaints about hearing the mc speaking and pastor delivering the message from center stage. The mc uses a podium condenser and the pastor is using a wireless headset. I'd love to tell everyone just to shut up and sit still and then turn off the AC and vent fans, but that won't go over well. There are no complaints about the sound during our congregational singing.

Personal philosophy re music
Congregational singing should be just that. The leaders and team should be just barely loud enough to be heard over the congregation to lead them into worship. I am not interested in filling the sanctuary with sound from the stage during singing, but rather, fill the sanctuary with 150+ voices of all ages in worship. No worship band on earth can compete with that. If we strive to drown out those voices, we've failed in our mission as sound engineers. Don't get me wrong, we are very blessed with talent, with former touring musicians, classically trained musicians/vocalists, Hillsong alumnus and even one member chosen to lead Urbana worship. (Fun fact: the Urbana worship team assembled from all over the world to our humble community to rehearse in our sanctuary. Some of them saw snow for the first time. That was a treat.) Consequently, we are one of few churches who still call our mc the "worship leader" who doesn't sing and then have a "song leader" as a separate role during a service.

Ultimate Goal
A personal goal is to design a sanctuary sound system that is invisible. I'd love for our audience to not even realize that we have a sound system except for seeing people with microphones. I don't want them to hear the sound coming from a PA speaker cabinet. I want it to feel natural, not synthetically produced sound. (Needless to say, I have a great appreciation for psychoacoustics.)

So what do you suggest we do to achieve this goal?

Photos of sanctuary attached and here's a link to a similar thread: https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=172072.0

Also should mention we are planning to put a center cabinet in front of balcony at peak of sanctuary. Balcony is our biggest pain point right now. Recommendation was a CDD8. We use a Touchmix 30 Pro and plan to do the tuning and delay from the board.

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