Doug Fowler wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 14:06 |
Can someone tell me how to explain to a small system operator why using this stuff is bad? I am at a loss for words, other than "you look like a backwoods PA farmer when you pull those out". |
Doug Fowler wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 14:06 |
H E L P Can someone tell me how to explain to a small system operator why using this stuff is bad? I am at a loss for words, other than "you look like a backwoods PA farmer when you pull those out". I give up. I don't know how to explain how amateurish this is. Of course there are other obstacles (like basic stagecraft, neat cable runs, that sort of stuff) but this is really glaring. Ugly piles of cables are bad enough, but when they're orange, well, you know what I'm talking about. |
Doug Fowler wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 17:06 |
H E L P Can someone tell me how to explain to a small system operator why using this stuff is bad? I am at a loss for words, other than "you look like a backwoods PA farmer when you pull those out". I am at my wit's end with this. There is someone locally that is very close to having a respectable package, but refuses to get rid of this crap (it's paid for, after all , and still insists on stringing cables willy-nilly between racks, from inside each exposed rack, instead of either making or buying some simple XLR input/output panels which could be color coded to make persistent connections, using color coded XLR looms. I give up. I don't know how to explain how amateurish this is. Of course there are other obstacles (like basic stagecraft, neat cable runs, that sort of stuff) but this is really glaring. Ugly piles of cables are bad enough, but when they're orange, well, you know what I'm talking about. -doug, Mr. "perpetually frustrated over this" |
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 19:57 |
Whats wrong with colorful extension cords? But, really I never knew they made black power cords(or at least havent seem them). All my mic cables are black though. Evan |
Doug Fowler wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 17:37 |
Hopefully everyone realizes I will point him to this thread |
B. Adams wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 21:08 |
I recommend getting yourself some 12/3 or 14/3 and making all the cords you need. Once you break it down it doesn't cost all that much, and you'll have really durable cables that will serve you for many years. Plus they're black, and that's a good thing. |
Mike AB [Mike Butler |
wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 20:01]EWI Amps? 1000's, or 2000's? I like the fan cutout with battered fingerguard in the middle of that other roadcase, BTW.. |
Winston wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 20:05 |
I guess I'm half professional, half amatuer or maybe just half assed. I have one yellow 50' 12/3 to which I added a four gang box for running to the drum area which I got for free when my sister didn't want to fix a bad end. From there I have all black 12/3 and 14/3 runs for anything on stage or in the public eye to back line, powered speakers, amp rack and front of house. That was the deal when I could run everything off one 15 amp breaker. Later on I needed 100' for an outdoor party and Home Despot was the only option for 10/3 late on a Saturday. That cord has now been cut into two 25' and one 50' sections for more flexibility and two runs of two circuits to the drum area. Would I like to have all black? Sure, I to think it looks more professional but for many of us lounge lizards using what we have is the only way to limit how much we lose or maximize what little we make at this level. Winston |
Brandon Burfeind wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 19:07 |
Black seems to say "professional" in almost every industry/business. When my dad was buying a Canon Digital Rebel (camera) he had to choose between black and silver. I made him get the black because it is way more professional, and that's just hobby photography. A great majority of business computers and peripherals are black, although that is a relatively new trend. They look nice. black is just more professional. whether its psychological or social, you have to admit it is. |
LOUDMUSIC wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 21:53 |
I've been looking for some cool colored extension cords but I can only find them in black. Anyone know where to get 6/4 SOOW in yellow, orange or green? |
Mike McNany wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 11:49 |
Evan, I see you added some quality plugs on some of those thin cables. Save the plugs and throw out the cables (or put el cheapo plugs on them and save them for home use). Your cables look a little thin, like that one on the stand up reel (I have the same one ;>). You should check each cable (this goes for all us low ball lounge lizards) and if it's not at least 14ga, you should leave it at home. While I also push for black AC cabling for a professional appearance, I think it's even more important to get rid of the lesser (higher) gage cabling. Save the orange 16ga for yard & Christmas lights. Black 12/3 cable can be had for $.48/foot at my small local electric supply store. Making more extensions (maybe 10ga) and ones with duplex & quad boxes are in my near future. Mike McNany |
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Tom M. wrote: as for my FOH it is very neat. 1 snake loomed with mesh goes from rack to board with a 1.5' fanout on the end, 2 power cables from the rack, one to board and one to the wall, and one xlr jack on the back to the amp racks. all cables on fanout are labled. My mixer case also has a small half-doghouse on the back. I am pretty picky about keeping things organized at foh and don't like having a bunch of misc. crap laying around. |
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 12:20 |
You hate my rack. |
Mike AB Mike Butler wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 15:09 |
Milk Crates went out with the '80's!! |
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 15:20 |
You hate my rack. |
AnotherDave wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 16:47 |
I don't believe some of you people are trying to defend the use those hideous yellow, orange, and pink power cables. Man, talk about not "getting it". You really need to get to appreciate the beauty of a nicely dressed cable run. It must be some sort of a "Musician Thing". I mean that in a nice way! The brightly colored Loew's Depot cable are nice if you want to keep from running over the cable with your electric lawn mower, but it's got no place on a stage. None. Nope. Nada. Zip. I know of one upscale venue where I have mixed weddings that expressly FORBIDS the use of anything other than black cables. Few things are more ghetto than random bird's nests of cable all over the stage, at FOH, and who knows where else. Not to mention (but I'll mention it anyway) the fact that the memory in the plastic insulation of these kinds of cables is so strong, it's months before you can get one to lay (lie?) flat. Let's get with it people! Dave "friends don't let friends use orange power cable" Dermont |
Brandon Burfeind wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 19:07 |
Black seems to say "professional" in almost every industry/business. When my dad was buying a Canon Digital Rebel (camera) he had to choose between black and silver. I made him get the black because it is way more professional, and that's just hobby photography. |
Mike McNany wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 18:02 | ||
While the comment was to Tom, count me in, too. I hate your rack. Of course the milk crate foundation is a destroyed mixer (Peavey RQ series, I see) in the making. But you need to get or make (far cheaper) several 2 & 3 foot mic cables for patching AND some 5/6 foot ones for the same. Not only looks neater but they can be easily loomed (or not) and coiled up, left in the racks for transport with one end connected. I went through a spiral wrap loom phase, major pain in the wrist to change, harder to coil but easy to have cables come out along the length. Then the split corragated tubing phase, still hard to coil. Eventually moving to several snakes for inserts & phone plug patching and also XLR looms using short velcro wraps every 9-10 inches, REAL easy to coil. Each snake gets wrapped with a big velcro scrap and left coiled all hooked up in the rack. That way you only have to connect one end of the cables, cutting the rack cabling time in half. Bottom line: shorty XLR cables make for easy wrapping, no tangling, and no rats' nest. Mike McNany |
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 20:30 |
Jason Ellis wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 22:09 |
Yep too much free time on my hands! I'm all for black only power cabling, and in reference to the above photographers, canon thinks white is nice, but I'm an old nikon man, and well nikons are black! (no longer true entirely, to keep up with Canon's marketing [the above image was staged following an event, anyone with a canon was handed $50 to bunch up for a picture!] they have a few "gray" lenses...not that brands matter, just link they don't matter here, good eyes, ears, and minds generate good output. |
Lee Patzius wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 16:24 |
According to my wife, orange is making a comeback. |
Harold Mayo wrote on Fri, 23 September 2005 11:17 | ||
It is....my 'new' wardrobe has lots of orange |
Jim Duyck wrote on Fri, 23 September 2005 12:59 |
I can't stand a mess, whether it be at FOH, behind the amp rack, or on stage. I'm always making a face at someone who's been untidy... |
Dave Unger wrote on Fri, 23 September 2005 15:57 |
Hey guys, I belive it is against NEC code to use anything but black cables. I tried to look it up but the code is so dense I gave up. This is for more than aesthetic reasons. Remember electicity causes heat, heat leads to fire, fire is bad. d |
Dave Unger wrote on Fri, 23 September 2005 13:57 |
Hey guys, I belive it is against NEC code to use anything but black cables. I tried to look it up but the code is so dense I gave up. This is for more than aesthetic reasons. Remember electicity causes heat, heat leads to fire, fire is bad. d |
Jim Duyck wrote on Fri, 23 September 2005 09:59 |
Horray for cable runs to your anus...I mean, for anal cable runs!!!! Arrgghh, I can't stand a mess, whether it be at FOH, behind the amp rack, or on stage. I'm always making a face at someone who's been untidy... |
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And thanks for all the cable pricing...I'm going hunting right now... |
Dave Unger wrote on Sat, 24 September 2005 11:00 |
Hi guys, What I was trying to say is that NEC code states that you must use SO or SJ cable of at least 12 gauge in a temporary installation for 120v. SO and SJ seldom come in orange. Inspectors will look at your orange cables and know immeadiatly that they are 12 gauge. The other nice thing about SO or SJ is the insulation. They can handle more amps before burning up. Plus you can drive a truck over them. Your orange 16 gauge would be toast under a truck tire! Hope this clarifies my point. d |
Dave Unger wrote on Sat, 24 September 2005 19:00 |
Inspectors will look at your orange cables and know immeadiatly that they are 12 gauge. Hope this clarifies my point. d |
Joe wrote on Sun, 25 September 2005 03:31 |
I'm surpised no-one here has mentioned cabling in the UK. At least mains wise I see a lot of blue cabling. It goes nicely with the big blue CeeForm connectors. I know for a fact that you can't get those in black |
Joe wrote on Sat, 24 September 2005 16:31 |
I know for a fact that you can't get those in black |
Simon T wrote on Sun, 25 September 2005 14:07 | ||
Hi Joe, Actually, you can get black ceeform connectors - designed to be inconspicuous mainly for television and on stage use. http://www.aclighting.co.uk/products/tourmate/ebony_print.ht m They do still have some blue to comply with electrical regulations; but when the connectors are joined the amount of blue you see is minimal. Simon |
Eric Strand wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 17:33 |
Hate to jump back a little on this, but you're wrong on this one. Check out Canon's high-end super-drool-worthy "L" series lenses. They're all white. If you ever see a photo of a group of photo-journalists (especially sports), you'll pick them out instantly. That's probably the point. for example . . |
Doug Fowler wrote on Mon, 26 September 2005 09:37 |
Same goes for racks: it's really easy to tidy up amp racks and leave them exposed. But your drive/insertables/fx racks, they need to be covered in the rear. Hell, if nothing else leave a space at the bottom, store your looms connected in the rear of the rack, and pull it to the mixer when you set up. |
LOUDMUSIC wrote on Mon, 26 September 2005 09:51 | ||
We try our best to keep our racks neat and organized but when working gigs outside in 115' weather we can't have the backs of our racks covered, we'll lose too many pieces of gear to the heat. In fact in some cases we have to have giant fans blowing through our amps racks just to keep them reasonable, they never really run cool in that kind of weather. There is one company out here that uses Soundcraft Series 5 consoles and they have to put big fans in front of the power supplies too. Since most of the country is in more moderate climates all of the above suggestions are great. Just not here in Phoenix. |
Quote: |
Can someone tell me how to explain to a small system operator why using this stuff is bad? I am at a loss for words, other than "you look like a backwoods PA farmer when you pull those out". I am at my wit's end with this. There is someone locally that is very close to having a respectable package, but refuses to get rid of this crap (it's paid for, after all , and still insists on stringing cables willy-nilly between racks, from inside each exposed rack, instead of either making or buying some simple XLR input/output panels which could be color coded to make persistent connections, using color coded XLR looms. I give up. I don't know how to explain how amateurish this is. |
mississippi slim wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 18:01 |
Don't be afraid to "tin" the conductor leads before you clamp em down. Keep it Pro. |
David Buckley wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 13:21 | ||
I would suggest that is controversial advice. Arguments rage on, but I'm in the "dont tin" camp. |
Ron Hebbard wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 05:31 | ||||
Hello David; And I'm in that same "camp" right along with you. I was just beginning to write a post when I heard you chime in. I suppose I could go with tinning the very tip but most tinners opt to tin the entire exposed end even to the extent of wicking solder up inside the insulation. To elaborate; Tinning hardens the end. When you clamp it, no matter how tight you make it, all it takes is the slightest loosening to have a totally poor connection. Toodleoo! Ron Hebbard |
mississippi slim wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 20:10 |
Thanks for the additional input. Certainly good advice about re-tightening electrical connectors. I always do this when I unplug something and feel that it's too hot. Some interesting points you make for the "not tin" school. I did mean just enough tin to hold the strands together and certainly not enough to wick up behind the insulation and stiffen the lead. Do you guys just twist the stripped lead and tighten it down? |
Quote: |
unless someone wants to mail me some black SOO |
Timmahh wrote on Sat, 01 October 2005 10:10 |
Actually the quick tone is a 6db boost @ 100Hz as described to me from Mark Tim |
Tom Reid wrote on Wed, 28 September 2005 08:37 | ||
|
mikebutlermedia.com wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 22:06 |
Hello y'all. New recruit here. Just discovered this forum after several years of hanging out on DVInfoNet (got involved with that because it was oriented toward Canon XL1 owner-operators), which is a great group but it doesn't really cover my sound reinforcement interests as tightly. They do have contributions from guys like Douglas Spotted Eagle and Jay Rose, though, and come very close to some of the pro sound topics so near and dear to our hearts. Anyway, I just had to sign up when I saw that there was another Mike Butler on board. I thought I'd just start in the Lounge, since although I'm hardly a newbie or amateur (was mixing rock'n'roll back in the 1970s) I'm also not out every week flying V-DOSC arrays and such. So I'm kind of in the farmer category, maybe gentleman farmer, 'cuz this is just one part of my gig. I have to agree with a lot of the comments here and add to them. I too have an issue with the safety of milk crates, and not just in terms of equipment crashes...standing on them can result in compound fracture of tibia and fibula (I know). I'm just as anal as anyone here, even policed the interior of my home theatre cabinet in my kitchen, with one solitary (black) split-loom cable exiting to all the satellite speakers. I'm a big endorser of the Brother P-touch versus the masking-tape-written-on-with-Sharpie approach for anything but last-minute field fixes. I shun duct tape, and if any tape must be used, it will be gaffers tape (black, of course). Whether DJ-ing (yes I still do that) or operating live sound, I am a big believer in having a clean backplane on the rack, either by using a doghouse or removable back panel, or even Duvetyne (my corporate show work has made me a big fan of Duvy) to conceal the motley cross-connections and other aesthetic faux pas. But I do still have and use some orange cables. Sorry. |
B. Adams wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 22:35 |
Jeez Evan, after reading his post you still can't tell what his name is? It seems pretty apparent from his screen name as well, at least to me. |
"the new" Mike Butler wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 02:14 |
Uh...apart from the fact that if you read what I wrote, I made reference to "another" Mike Butler...that should have been the dead giveaway...(as B. Adams pointed out, thanks) When filling out the signup form where it asked for my real name, I GAVE my real name!!! How was I to know that it would be the requested "handle" or "alias" (which actually contains my real name, BTW) which would take precedence over my "real name" when displaying my posts? The form should be edited to exclude aliases. |
Quote: |
In any case, I expected less picayune behavior than that, and if this is the kind of "welcome" accorded to newcomers I'll think twice about posting again. Is this all that you have to think about? |
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 21: |
Whats your name? Do we know how to read the rules? Evan |
Steve Oldridge wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 06:08 |
The moderators (just an observation as I'm sure they are busy) do not appear to be moderating that particular rule [too well] in the lounge - there seem to still be some folks who are not using their real names - and some of them have been around a while.. my $0.02 Steve |
Geri O wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 07:54 | ||
One of those rules here is to let the moderators do the moderating and not to respond at all to someone who appears to be breaking the rules, which, in the new Mike Butler's case, does not appear at all to be the case. Even half-asleep and pre-coffee, I can't for the life of me find anything wrong with his post. Okay, the DJ reference, but nobody's perfect... Evan, I've been following some of your postings for a while now and you're smarter than this. Some folks around here (not necessarily referring to Evan) seem to be haunting the site just laying in wait for someone to violate a rule so they can pounce. Maybe they need to vent, but this isn't the way. Yeah, we're gonna do it and yeah I have. Everyone just take a deep breath and relax. We all CERTAINLY have to have waaay more to worry about than someone that misses several stickys at the top of the board about whatever rules are getting people excited one way or the other. Geri O |
"the new" Mike Butler wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 19:06 |
Anyway, I just had to sign up when I saw that there was another Mike Butler on board. |
"the new" Mike Butler wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 19:06 |
I too have an issue with the safety of milk crates, and not just in terms of equipment crashes...standing on them can result in compound fracture of tibia and fibula (I know). |
"the new" Mike Butler wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 19:06 |
But I do still have and use some orange cables. Sorry. |
"the new" Mike Butler wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 23:14 |
In any case, I expected less picayune behavior than that, and if this is the kind of "welcome" accorded to newcomers I'll think twice about posting again. Is this all that you have to think about? Oh yes, and for the record, my name is MIKE BUTLER. Yes, that's my real name. This is MIKE BUTLER and I approved this message. Sincerely, MIKE BUTLER |
Tom Duffy wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 20:02 |
I think it may be an issue with the powercon rather than the cable, but the natural spacing of the L/E/N wires requires you to flip the E through the middle of the other two. When wired into the back of a 5-15 edison, the wires and contacts just line up. If you're doing a powercon-powercon cable, you could swap the colors and do L = White, N = Black so the connectors line up, but that is just asking for trouble later on. Tom. |
Quote: |
Did you try using the other end of the cable? One end of the cable's wire color rotation comes out in a clockwise order, while the other end comes out in reverse order. If you have to "braid" the wire colors to line up in a plug, then use the other end of the cable instead. It'll line up perfectly, and go straight in. |
Geri O wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 08:54 | ||
One of those rules here is to let the moderators do the moderating and not to respond at all to someone who appears to be breaking the rules, which, in the new Mike Butler's case, does not appear at all to be the case. Even half-asleep and pre-coffee, I can't for the life of me find anything wrong with his post. Okay, the DJ reference, but nobody's perfect... Evan, I've been following some of your postings for a while now and you're smarter than this. Some folks around here (not necessarily referring to Evan) seem to be haunting the site just laying in wait for someone to violate a rule so they can pounce. Maybe they need to vent, but this isn't the way. Yeah, we're gonna do it and yeah I have. Everyone just take a deep breath and relax. We all CERTAINLY have to have waaay more to worry about than someone that misses several stickys at the top of the board about whatever rules are getting people excited one way or the other. Geri O |
Quote: |
In any case, I expected less picayune behavior than that, and if this is the kind of "welcome" accorded to newcomers I'll think twice about posting again. Is this all that you have to think about? Oh yes, and for the record, my name is MIKE BUTLER. Yes, that's my real name. This is MIKE BUTLER and I approved this message. Sincerely, MIKE BUTLER |
Scott Moseley wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 15:59 |
Any helpful hints on jumping the ground between the individual outlets? Ground directly to the box? Scott Moseley |
Quote: |
3) Install a lug connector to each box, connect your normal grounding conductor to the recptacle like normal but add a grounding pigtail wire to the lug. Then add an additional #6 AWG green wire daisy chained from each lug to each box. |
Mike [AB |
My favorite story about milk crates was the gig I was using them for a mixer stand. That wuuz in the daze of the "built-in" spring reverb in the console, and we were doing a show where I needed a canload of 'verb, so I had the output REALLY hot in the mix. Everything was going along nicely, and I shifted position to get more comfortable, and kicked the crates, causing them to rock back and forth, and the reverb does the very loud KATCHANGGG!! thing through the PA. Artist is cracking up, but eventually pulls it back together. |
Tom Duffy wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 16:50 |
I was reading a home wiring book (based on the 2002 NEC) that said this was not to code. The incoming cable's ground wire (green) needs to go straight to the metal case. A pigtail from there to each outlet's ground connector is then required. You mustn't daisy chain grounds, you need a common point, and because the case is metal, that is it. |
Bud Bolf wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 18:42 |
Hi, What I want to know is what Yellow Crimps were used in the Binding Posts? |
Mike Butler (media) wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 20:28 | ||
Looks like a standard automotive/industrial item: Stud opening size may need to be different to fit binding post diameter. |
Bud Bolf wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 21:52 |
I also bought 50 feet of Carol, SJOOW 10/3 bulk "black" wire for $1.07 a foot at Home Depot. |
gmerkman wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 20:08 |
Check this site: ... The only thing about the extension cords is that they are 14/3. I think 12/3 should be used, particularly for lighting/effects.... |
P.Frederiksen wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 20:19 |
Wow, it must be tough hiding all that yellow and orange stuff in the truss! you can bulk buy black at any home depot etc (I do use yellow......on my weed wacker) |
P.Frederiksen wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 21:19 |
(I do use yellow......on my weed wacker) |
Gene Declue wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 21:49 |
I guess I'm the only one that uses the dark green, after Christmas special 14 gauge cable. It's ALMOST as dark as pure black cable and on a dark stage, they pretty much are invisable (and CHEAP). |
Tom Manchester wrote on Sat, 17 December 2005 21:19 |
I just went to my local electrical supply house and picked up about 40' of SOOW. I asked for SJOOW but the guy cut the wrong stuff. I kind of felt bad and told him I'd take the SOOW if it wasn't to much more so he gave me a discounted price on it for a grand total of something like $29.86. Stopped at Sears hardware and got some ends for it. Now I have atleast 1 legitamate cable to go with all my other J rated black cables |
Bennett Prescott wrote on Sat, 17 December 2005 22:59 |
Vishnu and Valhalla? Whatever those guys are on, I want some. Just make sure you've got the Vishnu version in the middle east, although the Valhalla ought to be good worldwide. |
Mike Butler (media) wrote on Sun, 18 December 2005 14:25 |
...and some Viagra! |
Bennett Prescott wrote on Sat, 17 December 2005 22:59 |
Vishnu and Valhalla? Whatever those guys are on, I want some. Just make sure you've got the Vishnu version in the middle east, although the Valhalla ought to be good worldwide. |
Ron Hebbard wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 08:31 | ||||
Hello David; And I'm in that same "camp" right along with you. I was just beginning to write a post when I heard you chime in. I suppose I could go with tinning the very tip but most tinners opt to tin the entire exposed end even to the extent of wicking solder up inside the insulation. To elaborate; Tinning hardens the end. When you clamp it, no matter how tight you make it, all it takes is the slightest loosening to have a totally poor connection. Toodleoo! Ron Hebbard |
Phil Ouellette wrote on Wed, 21 December 2005 13:02 |
The problem is cold flow deformation of the solder. When you tighten down a screw on a solder tinned wire, the solder initially resists the compression force giving the impression of a tight connection. Over time, the solder yields to the pressure and a loose connection occurs... |