Post by: Doug Fowler on March 09, 2017, 11:12:35 AM
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on March 09, 2017, 11:47:20 AM
Post by: Doug Fowler on March 09, 2017, 12:13:59 PM
Well THAT's interesting.
Besides mains, drum/DJ monitor. Well done guys.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 09, 2017, 12:36:20 PM
Besides mains, drum/DJ monitor. Well done guys.The output above 50hz is equal to two TH118s. It doesn't go as low as the Th118 however.
The woofers are the 15" version of the one used in the TH118s and the same woofers in the BC415
For those interested in that sort of thing
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 09, 2017, 12:48:36 PM
The output above 50hz is equal to two TH118s. It doesn't go as low as the Th118 however.
The woofers are the 15" version of the one used in the TH118s and the same woofers in the BC415
For those interested in that sort of thing
Interesting, indeed.
Any recommendation of practical lifts? Opinion on minimum practical height?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 09, 2017, 12:57:42 PM
Interesting, indeed.2 people (decent roadies), can lift it up and put on another cabinet that is 45" tall.
Any recommendation of practical lifts? Opinion on minimum practical height?
40" would be easier.
30 or 36" is pretty easy.
A genie or similar picks it up real easy. I would recommend a lift rated for 400lbs on the forks.
So it depends on needs. For a drummer-just sitting on the riser is fine, or a block of audio wood under the front.
For sidefills, put it on a road case.
For DJ use, put some "audio wood" under the front to tilt up (an adjustable angle stand will be available soon).
Post by: Rick Powell on March 09, 2017, 01:51:20 PM
2 people (decent roadies), can lift it up and put on another cabinet that is 45" tall.
40" would be easier.
30 or 36" is pretty easy.
A genie or similar picks it up real easy. I would recommend a lift rated for 400lbs on the forks.
So it depends on needs. For a drummer-just sitting on the riser is fine, or a block of audio wood under the front.
For sidefills, put it on a road case.
For DJ use, put some "audio wood" under the front to tilt up (an adjustable angle stand will be available soon).
A few questions.
Powered version available? If so, where would it cross, and could it be tuned for either stand alone use or use with a sub?
How would a single TH118 fare below it (keeping with the 40" lift theme above a bottom cabinet) and where would you cross it over?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 09, 2017, 03:33:19 PM
A few questions.Getting an amp into it is something we looked at, but the size/weight would have to increase in order to get an amp to fit.
Powered version available? If so, where would it cross, and could it be tuned for either stand alone use or use with a sub?
How would a single TH118 fare below it (keeping with the 40" lift theme above a bottom cabinet) and where would you cross it over?
So-for now anyway-it is not available self powered.
The TH118 would "run out of gas" a good bit before the SM80 would. But it would add some depth to the sound.
I would probably low pass the TH118 at 45-50Hz.
The SM80F is a good bit wider than the TH118-and heavier-so it would be a bit unstable. I would not feel safe with that setup.
It does have skids on top and bottom if you wanted to stack it on top of another SM80F, and use the lower one for lows only. It won't go any lower-but would be a bit louder.
A better match would be a pair of DBH218s or PG218s in terms of matching up output.
The skids match up with the DBH218 and interlock.
Post by: Keith Broughton on March 09, 2017, 04:40:48 PM
Post by: Stephen Kirby on March 09, 2017, 06:33:09 PM
Post by: Kemper Watson on March 09, 2017, 07:06:22 PM
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/synergy-molded-horns/sm80f/
Is there an adaptor kit available? ;D
Post by: Mike Hedden on March 09, 2017, 07:10:12 PM
I can't quite see how much if any horn path length can be squeezed in there behind the woofers. Is this more of a bandpass than tapped horn in the bottom? Makes sense since it's not trying to be super wide bandwidth.Tom can chime in if he's paying attention but short answer is yes it's a tapped horn, there's a decent amount of volume behind the high/mid section. It's very punchy.
Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 09, 2017, 07:37:22 PM
I can't quite see how much if any horn path length can be squeezed in there behind the woofers. Is this more of a bandpass than tapped horn in the bottom? Makes sense since it's not trying to be super wide bandwidth.The horn is really cleaver. Tom did a good job with it.
It is basically (not counting braces etc) a single piece of wood for each driver.
The total path is greater than 9', for each driver.
It is absolutely a tapped horn-the same as the other tapped horns.
Post by: Stephen Kirby on March 09, 2017, 07:41:26 PM
Is there an adaptor kit available? ;DIt would seem from Mike's response that there's a fair amount of involved cabinetry work behind the "SM80" part. At most I would think only the horn flare and driver would be transferable. All that wood back there probably accounts for a good amount of the weight.
Looks like a great small club or corporate install box.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 09, 2017, 07:55:51 PM
It would seem from Mike's response that there's a fair amount of involved cabinetry work behind the "SM80" part. At most I would think only the horn flare and driver would be transferable. All that wood back there probably accounts for a good amount of the weight.The mid/high driver is enclosed into a small back volume-just like the SM80.
Looks like a great small club or corporate install box.
Those "Sm80 parts" are also outside walls of the horn.
It is all 18mm 13 ply baltic birch. The fly points also add a fair bit of weight.
And a good bit of bracing helps to "keep it from tearing itself apart".
It could be built lighter-but then various aspects of the performance would suffer.
Post by: Sean Zurbrick on March 09, 2017, 08:34:15 PM
https://youtu.be/8XYRRJw7DNU
Post by: Jeremy Young on March 09, 2017, 08:38:25 PM
Nice work guys! Any other secret projects on the go? I'm itching for some SM80's, unless you're working on a lighter SH46, lol. Kidding of course. I know if you could you would.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 09, 2017, 08:56:40 PM
Looks like it all fits nicely behind a full face grille too.Yes, there is a full frontal curved grill. It is just shown without the grill-because it looks sexier without it.
Any other secret projects on the go?
There are always projects being worked on.
We just can't talk about them now.
But hopefully by Infocomm in June we will have some more new ones.
Some really interesting ;)
Post by: Stephen Kirby on March 09, 2017, 11:06:31 PM
There are always projects being worked on.
We just can't talk about them now.
Sucks doesn't it. You see someone talking about something and you just know there's something in development that will make their day, but you can't spill the beans until it's publicly announced.
Better than some places though, where they gave employees flying lessons for letting cell phone prototypes leak.
Post by: Lance Hallmark on March 10, 2017, 02:33:02 AM
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on March 10, 2017, 05:06:43 AM
The horn is really cleaver. Tom did a good job with it.
It is basically (not counting braces etc) a single piece of wood for each driver.
The total path is greater than 9', for each driver.
It is absolutely a tapped horn-the same as the other tapped horns.
I'm going to take a guess that the TH section is in an L-shape, and goes up behind the 12" co-ax back enclosure.
Chris
Post by: Jason Raboin on March 10, 2017, 08:37:09 AM
The total path is greater than 9', for each driver.
If the low end travels 9' prior to exit, does that means the HF needs to be delayed 8ms for it to all align properly? If so, does that need to be done in DSP?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 10, 2017, 12:21:38 PM
If the low end travels 9' prior to exit, does that means the HF needs to be delayed 8ms for it to all align properly? If so, does that need to be done in DSP?This is a good example of "it depends".
First-the actual horn length is not always the delay time needed.
The actual time will depend on the particular high and low pass filters used in the crossover.
Second, the Tapped horn does not "behave" as a regular horn-especially where delay time is concerned.
Remember there is a lot of radiation off of the rear of the driver.
In this case, the actual delay time used in the Danley preset is 2.8ms on the mid/high section.
Not nearly as long as "the simple number" would suggest.
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 10, 2017, 12:26:49 PM
Does the "F" stand for "fractal"???
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 10, 2017, 12:35:04 PM
Hey, Ivan!!!Actually it is for "Full range".
Does the "F" stand for "fractal"???
Post by: John Rutirasiri on March 10, 2017, 12:59:48 PM
John R.
Post by: Stephen Kirby on March 10, 2017, 01:59:59 PM
Ivan, I noticed the curved front. Is that the new design aesthetics (possibly weight saving), or is it to prevent some sort of diffraction? I don't recall any other Danley boxes with a curved front.
John R.
The existing SM80 has a bit of a curved front. With such a large grille it makes it much easier to prevent rattling by putting a bend into it.
It would be really interesting to see the horn path on that thing. Got to be some seriously clever woodworking going on.
Post by: Rick Powell on March 10, 2017, 05:21:29 PM
It would be really interesting to see the horn path on that thing. Got to be some seriously clever woodworking going on.
The trail at diyaudio.com/subwoofer is littered with clever (and not so clever) tapped horn path designs! As long as there is a consistent horn expansion along the way, and not too much driver stress at the throat, there are a lot of neat things you can do...if you know what you're doing.
Post by: Stephen Kirby on March 10, 2017, 06:16:06 PM
The trail at diyaudio.com/subwoofer is littered with clever (and not so clever) tapped horn path designs! As long as there is a consistent horn expansion along the way, and not too much driver stress at the throat, there are a lot of neat things you can do...if you know what you're doing.Yes, I've followed those. Including the "smells like" a popular box here. I have four modded Cubos and have built many cabinets of various types. Creating an even expansion while negotiating up and over corners and multiple direction changes is no mean feet. As Mike said, Tom was especially clever here. Somehow.
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on March 12, 2017, 07:31:38 AM
Set off with the boards you can see for each driver, on the inside. It goes all the way to the back of the cab, and then up the back heading towards the centre-line, which gives you some expansion along the way. 180 degree turn at the top of the cab, and back down the other side. Further expansion as it goes, and then 90 degree turn to where you can see the driver magnets, and then out into the world.
There's probably some additional voodoo in there (Helmholtz resonators etc) to get a smooth top-end response.
I like this design. The nearly-opposed firing drivers should stop the cabinet walking around much, and the air flow should keep the drivers nice and cool.
I don't know enough about the alignment, but I'd consider crossing at 65Hz or so to a stack of subs, and treating the 2x15" in there as a kick section.
Chris
Post by: David Allred on March 13, 2017, 12:22:15 PM
This is a good example of "it depends".
First-the actual horn length is not always the delay time needed.
The actual time will depend on the particular high and low pass filters used in the crossover.
Second, the Tapped horn does not "behave" as a regular horn-especially where delay time is concerned.
Remember there is a lot of radiation off of the rear of the driver.
In this case, the actual delay time used in the Danley preset is 2.8ms on the mid/high section.
Not nearly as long as "the simple number" would suggest.
Ivan,
How about being a pal and posting a few pics.... One of the box and drivers cut front to back and one cut side to side. If you are amenable to that, then you should also be able to donate a pair to me to get the word out. I would cover shipping or gladly pick. If only one of the above is possible, I choose the latter.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 13, 2017, 01:39:44 PM
If you need to go lower in freq (most people do not), then you can use the DBH218 under the SM80.
I don't know enough about the alignment, but I'd consider crossing at 65Hz or so to a stack of subs, and treating the 2x15" in there as a kick section.
Chris
The skids will line up.
If I was doing that, I would probably HP the SM80F around 45Hz (maybe 50), but no higher. Let it work where it is "happy".
And then LP the DBH218 at 50Hz or so-give or take.
I have not done an alignment on that yet-but will soon.
I would probably run 2 or 3 DBh218s for a single SM80F.
Mostly to get it high enough in the air.
Post by: Brandon Scopel on March 13, 2017, 10:40:44 PM
Ivan,Adding to Davids post, I'll pay the shipping for the 1 sm80f per side over 3 dbh218.
How about being a pal and posting a few pics.... One of the box and drivers cut front to back and one cut side to side. If you are amenable to that, then you should also be able to donate a pair to me to get the word out. I would cover shipping or gladly pick. If only one of the above is possible, I choose the latter.
If you need to go lower in freq (most people do not), then you can use the DBH218 under the SM80.
The skids will line up.
If I was doing that, I would probably HP the SM80F around 45Hz (maybe 50), but no higher. Let it work where it is "happy".
And then LP the DBH218 at 50Hz or so-give or take.
I have not done an alignment on that yet-but will soon.
I would probably run 2 or 3 DBh218s for a single SM80F.
Mostly to get it high enough in the air.
Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on March 14, 2017, 06:06:27 AM
If you need to go lower in freq (most people do not), then you can use the DBH218 under the SM80.
The skids will line up.
If I was doing that, I would probably HP the SM80F around 45Hz (maybe 50), but no higher. Let it work where it is "happy".
And then LP the DBH218 at 50Hz or so-give or take.
I have not done an alignment on that yet-but will soon.
I would probably run 2 or 3 DBh218s for a single SM80F.
Mostly to get it high enough in the air.
I was just thinking that a few DBHs would likely have far more headroom at 50Hz than the SM80F, so taking the crossover up might be a good move.
I'll keep an eye out for the alignments you come up with.
Chris
Post by: Caleb Dueck on March 14, 2017, 07:28:40 AM
I was just thinking that a few DBHs would likely have far more headroom at 50Hz than the SM80F, so taking the crossover up might be a good move.Keep in mind that when Danley says "crossover", they don't necessarily think in terms of steep filters and minimal overlap between adjacent pass bands. Especially if the tops are stacked directly on the subs, shallower slope filters and some out of band EQ may be a better transition between these boxes.
I'll keep an eye out for the alignments you come up with.
Chris
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 14, 2017, 08:03:21 AM
I was just thinking that a few DBHs would likely have far more headroom at 50Hz than the SM80F, so taking the crossover up might be a good move.A really nice sounding alignment is with the DBH218s low passed at 50Hz 24dB butterworth and the SM80F highpassed at 45Hz 24dB Butterworth
I'll keep an eye out for the alignments you come up with.
Chris
The DBH218s are also run 4dB hotter than the Sm80LF.
I ended up with no eq on either the DBh218s or the SM80LF. The only eq is on the Sm80 part.
This is with 2 DBH218s and 1 SM80F, all off of a DNA20K amp. Each DBH218 is 2 ohms on its own channel and the SM80F is on the other 2 channels.
Post by: David Allred on March 14, 2017, 08:54:23 AM
A really nice sounding alignment is with the DBH218s low passed at 50Hz 24dB butterworth and the SM80F highpassed at 45Hz 24dB Butterworth
The DBH218s are also run 4dB hotter than the Sm80LF.
I ended up with no eq on either the DBh218s or the SM80LF. The only eq is on the Sm80 part.
This is with 2 DBH218s and 1 SM80F, all off of a DNA20K amp. Each DBH218 is 2 ohms on its own channel and the SM80F is on the other 2 channels.
Wouldn't it be great to have active participation, like Danley (Ivan), from all the legitimate players?
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on March 14, 2017, 04:30:50 PM
A really nice sounding alignment is with the DBH218s low passed at 50Hz 24dB butterworth and the SM80F highpassed at 45Hz 24dB Butterworth
The DBH218s are also run 4dB hotter than the Sm80LF.
I ended up with no eq on either the DBh218s or the SM80LF. The only eq is on the Sm80 part.
This is with 2 DBH218s and 1 SM80F, all off of a DNA20K amp. Each DBH218 is 2 ohms on its own channel and the SM80F is on the other 2 channels.
Ivan;
Although not stated I take it the SM80F is a Bi-amp only box with no passive crossover between sub section and mid/high? Can the 2 - 4 ohm 15's be reached alone for a 4 ohm load per amp channel? Some amps may not be "Totally Happy" with a 2 ohm load.
Thanks for any information.
Douglas R. Allen
Post by: Stephen Kirby on March 14, 2017, 04:37:02 PM
Ivan;I thought there was upthread mention of the path length compensation being handled by phase shift within the crossover. Which would imply a full range input.
Although not stated I take it the SM80F is a Bi-amp only box with no passive crossover between sub section and mid/high? Can the 2 - 4 ohm 15's be reached alone for a 4 ohm load per amp channel? Some amps may not be "Totally Happy" with a 2 ohm load.
Thanks for any information.
Douglas R. Allen
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 14, 2017, 05:07:30 PM
Ivan;Yes it is a biamp only box. We need to add delay to get the lows and highs to "mate up".
Although not stated I take it the SM80F is a Bi-amp only box with no passive crossover between sub section and mid/high? Can the 2 - 4 ohm 15's be reached alone for a 4 ohm load per amp channel? Some amps may not be "Totally Happy" with a 2 ohm load.
Thanks for any information.
Douglas R. Allen
That much delay is not possible passively.
There are a couple of possibilities to get a "non 2 ohm" load.
The intended amp is our DNA20K, which is real happy with 2 ohms.
I "assume" you could order the cabinet with 8 ohm drivers instead of 4 ohms.
These are non Danley stocked drivers-so there may be a lead time on them (or not-depending on B&C US stock).
You cannot get 3 channels off of a NL4 connector.
There are 2 NL4 connectors in the rear, that are in parallel.
So you could rewire these so that 1 of them was the 2 woofers ( 1 on each of pins 1 and 2) and the other was the SM80 part.
Or cut a larger hole and put an NL8 in.
The woofer wires are just ran straight to the jacks-so nothing special there.
They are in parallel with each other at the terminals-so you would need to run an extra wire to the jack plate.
So overall all-not that big a deal.
Post by: Jerry Smith on March 15, 2017, 10:37:43 PM
The output above 50hz is equal to two TH118sI'm not seeing this from your spec sheets if we are talking about 50-100hz. Unless I'm reading them wrong or missing something in comparing them?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on March 16, 2017, 04:53:40 AM
Chris
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 16, 2017, 07:26:00 AM
I'm not seeing this from your spec sheets if we are talking about 50-100hz. Unless I'm reading them wrong or missing something in comparing them?The difference is how they are measured.
Since the SM80F is a full range product, it was measured in whole space (speaker and mic up in the air a good bit).
The TH118s are subs-so they are measured in half space.
There is a 6dB difference there.
Of course it comes down to measurement vs reality.
The reality is that you-as a listener-are in a "almost" half space" condition.
So even if the speaker is raised up, you will still get the 6dB benefit from the ground (half space loading).
So what is shown on the spec sheet is a bit "misleading". The actual SPL you will get from the low end is 6dB higher than on the spec sheet.
Somebody else brought this up to me earlier-so yesterday I remeasured.
And yes, the 6dB addition does occur when you are on the ground.
This is not only by measurement, but also by simply listening to the various cabinets.
So, as with any measurement- you have to pay close attention to the details of the measurement, and also a good example of how "simple numbers" result in very misleading numbers.
In this case-the actual "result" of listening is 6dB higher than the spec sheet says (at least for the lower freq).
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 16, 2017, 07:29:00 AM
If the 15"s are 4ohm, I guess they could be wired in series for an 8ohm load, and then use a bridged amp that's comfortable at 4ohm/ch. That does eat an entire stereo amp just for bass duties, though.Yes it does. You are STILL using 2 channels when you bridge.
Chris
In this case-you would get the same amount of power if each 4 ohm woofer is driven with 1 channel of the amp-or if the amp is bridged into both drivers in series.
But when you bridge-the damping factor goes in half, and there is simply more possibility of a total failure when bridged.
I would go with the stereo over the bridged wiring any day.
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on March 16, 2017, 08:53:14 AM
Chris
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 16, 2017, 11:31:22 AM
Of course. Series wiring avoids opening up the hole for an NL8 connector, though.
Chris
Agreed
Another advantage to the series wiring is there will be less loss (1/4 as much) over the distance of the cable.
This may or may not make a difference in a particular setup.
So-as usual-it depends.
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on March 17, 2017, 06:13:09 AM
Agreed
Another advantage to the series wiring is there will be less loss (1/4 as much) over the distance of the cable.
This may or may not make a difference in a particular setup.
So-as usual-it depends.
Yep, I remember someone on another forum (might well have been Art) saying that they found better results with some old EV 18" boxes when they were wired in series-parallel for an 8ohm load rather than a 2ohm load, since at the end of a long cable resistive losses were getting high, damping factor was getting low, and the response had gone to crap.
I guess the LF section of the SM80F might well suffer similarly if long cable runs have to be used. I expect it's too late now, but would a user-servicable internal switch (or even moving jumpers) be on the cards for such situations?
Just a thought. I don't think it'd add much to the manufacturing cost, but the additional flexibility of still being useful at the end of 300' of 2.5mm is a nice thing to have. We've all done those gigs where a last-minute change means you've got to put gear somewhere very-not-optimal.
Chris
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 17, 2017, 07:33:54 AM
Yep, I remember someone on another forum (might well have been Art) saying that they found better results with some old EV 18" boxes when they were wired in series-parallel for an 8ohm load rather than a 2ohm load, since at the end of a long cable resistive losses were getting high, damping factor was getting low, and the response had gone to crap.
I guess the LF section of the SM80F might well suffer similarly if long cable runs have to be used. I expect it's too late now, but would a user-servicable internal switch (or even moving jumpers) be on the cards for such situations?
Just a thought. I don't think it'd add much to the manufacturing cost, but the additional flexibility of still being useful at the end of 300' of 2.5mm is a nice thing to have. We've all done those gigs where a last-minute change means you've got to put gear somewhere very-not-optimal.
Chris
I do agree that a higher impedance is better (when technical performance is all you are looking at), especially for subs.
But the practical side of it often outweighs the technical. If you needed to provide 4000-5000 watts @ 8 ohms, that means a bridged amp. So your damping factor just dropped in half because of that.
So now- instead of a simple 4 conductor cable you can plug into the back of an amp, you have to bridge an amp (2 channels), run it to a jack on a panel and wire another amp (for the mid/highs) into that jack.
So you are now using 3 channels of amps instead of 2.
While this is easy for some people and they don't care-others hate the idea (or are incapable of performing the work) of having to provide "special wiring" to get it to work.
Yes a switch could be added, at a small additional cost. It is more than just the switch cost though. All the little things add up. The additional wood work, labels, labor, connectors and so forth.
The switch needs to be a high current switch-those woofers are not wimpy.
But that adds another point of possible "user error". Wrong switch positions accounts for lots of calls of things not working correctly.
For every person that like the idea of a switch, there are just as many who hate the idea of a switch.
Just look at powered speakers. Some people love the idea of controls and switches etc on them.
Others want ZERO switches-because there is the possibility of getting them in the wrong position. Including a power switch.
What is great for one person/usage is terrible for another.
It is real easy to simply rewire the woofers to 8 ohms if needed. Remove the front grill and you can get to the terminals easily.
You can also order them wired for 8 ohms from the factory if needed.
Generally if somebody is running a long cable run-it is typically in an install. So they know ahead of time what they are dealing with-cable length wise.
The thought behind the impedance choice was that most uses would not be through long cable runs.
And the ability to get lots of sound (more watts baby 8) ) easily from 2 cabinets on the DNA20K amp.
Post by: Randy Pence on March 17, 2017, 09:05:05 AM
Yep, I remember someone on another forum (might well have been Art) saying that they found better results with some old EV 18" boxes when they were wired in series-parallel for an 8ohm load rather than a 2ohm load, since at the end of a long cable resistive losses were getting high, damping factor was getting low, and the response had gone to crap.
I guess the LF section of the SM80F might well suffer similarly if long cable runs have to be used. I expect it's too late now, but would a user-servicable internal switch (or even moving jumpers) be on the cards for such situations?
Just a thought. I don't think it'd add much to the manufacturing cost, but the additional flexibility of still being useful at the end of 300' of 2.5mm is a nice thing to have. We've all done those gigs where a last-minute change means you've got to put gear somewhere very-not-optimal.
Chris
How often have you had to run cable 100m to a high output full-range stack? I'd expect that to go through so many connectors and couplers (because who uses 100m lengths of 4x2.5mm˛ cable?) to negate any benefit. In such a scenario, I'd reel out power and xlr cables and set the amps next to the box.
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on March 17, 2017, 09:50:36 AM
Post by: Mike Pyle on March 17, 2017, 10:13:22 AM
Post by: Brandon Scopel on March 17, 2017, 10:46:15 AM
Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
Post by: Rick Powell on March 17, 2017, 11:15:02 AM
All things considered, this cabinet begs for self powering. One of the rare instances where it makes compelling economic sense to do so, in addition to overcoming the technical issues.
This box goes against the grain in a couple different ways, and it's not all bad. This is probably the largest Danley box (besides the Jericho's?) that doesn't have a powered option...there are smaller and more tightly packed boxes where you can see why they didn't offer one. The trend for speakers in the last several years is to make the mid-high component lightweight...this goes for everything from line array modules to speakers-on-a-stick. The 150-200 lb. "all-in-one" boxes fell out of favor years ago because of what you had to do to lift them and get the HF up in the air...I am thinking of those big EV boxes that were once all the rage with an 18" a 10" and a horn. For people seeking a portable one-box solution, they will need to get something really heavy-duty to sit these on, and then figure out how they are going to get them up there. An SM80 on a stick above a sub is a lot easier. I liked the idea posted earlier of a "sub-only" version with the two 15"s...maybe even a version with 2-18"s and a little lower corner, say 35 Hz. to offer a single, portable sub to better match the output capability of the SM80. Most people won't find it affordable or practical to haul in 2 DBH's per side to act as infra-subs and glorified speaker stands for the SM80F...but let's face it, you WOULD like to run that system!
Post by: Jonathan Betts on March 17, 2017, 11:18:39 AM
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 17, 2017, 12:18:53 PM
How often have you had to run cable 100m to a high output full-range stack? I'd expect that to go through so many connectors and couplers (because who uses 100m lengths of 4x2.5mm˛ cable?) to negate any benefit. In such a scenario, I'd reel out power and xlr cables and set the amps next to the box.A good example would be installs in arenas that have the amp racks located a good distance away from the speakers. 100m runs are often normal.
We did 1 stadium in which they used a 8 ga run to each loudspeaker.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 17, 2017, 12:23:22 PM
All things considered, this cabinet begs for self powering. One of the rare instances where it makes compelling economic sense to do so, in addition to overcoming the technical issues.
The problem with a high performance device (loudspeaker or car) is that there is A LOT under the hood. And it get cramped real easily.
There is not a place to put a properly sized amp, unless the cabinet gets larger.
The idea was to pack as much performance as we could do in a relatively small cabinet. This is very little wasted space.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 17, 2017, 12:24:10 PM
Seems like the DNA 20k pro would be a perfect fit for a pair of these. With factory presets included, it looks like a simple solution. As long as cable runs are 10awg and 50' or less, damping should be close to 20 or above.That is the idea.
Post by: John L Nobile on March 17, 2017, 12:37:11 PM
I can think of a theater I sometimes work at that this box might be perfect for.
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on March 17, 2017, 04:03:44 PM
Is the hi - mid component of this box the same as an SM80? A 3 year old SM80?I'm pretty sure they're using NEW SM80 components, but Ivan would know for sure. Not sure where you would buy 3 year old SM80's.
:)
Post by: John L Nobile on March 17, 2017, 04:34:32 PM
I'm pretty sure they're using NEW SM80 components, but Ivan would know for sure. Not sure where you would buy 3 year old SM80's.
:)
You can buy them from me if I was selling. Mine are 3 years old.
I was curious if the mid/hi section performed like mine or if they were improved with the new cabinet.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 17, 2017, 04:37:30 PM
Is the hi - mid component of this box the same as an SM80? A 3 year old SM80?Yes, the mid/hi is the same xover-horn-and coax driver.
I can think of a theater I sometimes work at that this box might be perfect for.
The newer versions have the Sentinel peak and continuous protection on the HF driver.
Post by: Uniz Kazz on March 17, 2017, 04:40:27 PM
Yes, the mid/hi is the same xover-horn-and coax driver.
The newer versions have the Sentinel peak and continuous protection on the HF driver.
By newer versions do you mean on the SM80F only or regular SM80's after a certain production date?
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Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 17, 2017, 05:06:43 PM
By newer versions do you mean on the SM80F only or regular SM80's after a certain production date?The regular SM80s have had the protection in them for around 2 years or more.
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Post by: Randy Pence on March 18, 2017, 12:09:43 PM
A good example would be installs in arenas that have the amp racks located a good distance away from the speakers. 100m runs are often normal.
We did 1 stadium in which they used a 8 ga run to each loudspeaker.
Long runs, sure, but as a last minute change?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 18, 2017, 12:36:01 PM
Long runs, sure, but as a last minute change?I'm sorry-but I don't understand the question.
Maybe you ask another way.
Post by: Randy Pence on March 19, 2017, 05:00:10 PM
I'm sorry-but I don't understand the question.
Maybe you ask another way.
The comment I replied to brought up the reality that there are in fact times where a speaker must be hastily placed due to whatever reason. In the case of an installed speaker in such large facilities and not a spontaneous fill for a mobile event, I would anticipate that proper planning of sufficient cable is standard
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 19, 2017, 05:59:53 PM
The comment I replied to brought up the reality that there are in fact times where a speaker must be hastily placed due to whatever reason. In the case of an installed speaker in such large facilities and not a spontaneous fill for a mobile event, I would anticipate that proper planning of sufficient cable is standardAgreed.
And in many cases, what we do (have to do) violates many "basic rules", but it "gets the job done".
It is always good to understand the possible results of your particular actions.
But sometimes you do it anyway---------
As long as you get the check-all is good :)
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on February 16, 2018, 11:54:54 AM
Post by: John L Nobile on February 16, 2018, 02:26:31 PM
Just got a pair of these in for a customer. These are a tough move for 1 person, not bad for 2 though. Awesome for a raised stage if you can just roll one out to each front corner.
I can carry and lift them on a crank stand by myself, and I'm old.
I relate size and weight to output. In that respect I find them not very heavy at all.
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on February 16, 2018, 02:34:26 PM
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 16, 2018, 02:39:59 PM
I can carry and lift them on a crank stand by myself, and I'm old.
I relate size and weight to output. In that respect I find them not very heavy at all.
I hope you misread the subject. The SM80F is a 215lb speaker with 2 15”, 1 12”, and a compression driver. They should not be on most crank stands, and probably shouldn’t be handled alone.
Mac
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on February 16, 2018, 02:43:26 PM
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on February 16, 2018, 02:49:29 PM
I can carry and lift them on a crank stand by myself, and I'm old.The SM80F? The spec sheet says it weighs 215lbs. Wheaties or spinach?
I relate size and weight to output. In that respect I find them not very heavy at all.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 16, 2018, 03:49:04 PM
I hope you misread the subject. The SM80F is a 215lb speaker with 2 15”, 1 12”, and a compression driver. They should not be on most crank stands, and probably shouldn’t be handled alone.I agree.
Mac
It is easy to move them around (get into position-as long as there are not any stairs), but lifting should be with another person.
Something that many people "forget" is that there are different weight ratings for the same stand.
If the weight is centered over the stand or just outside of the main "shaft", that is the most capacity.
If you are using forks, the further out on the forks you go, the less the capacity of the stand.
So there are a good number of "it depends" at play here.
I would be very cautious about crank stands and such, where the cabinet could fall a good distance and hurt somebody.
The SM80F was not really intended to be a portable PA cabinet, getting it in the air can be a pain. It is not hard for 2 decent people (even as old as I am, I can still do it), to get it up 40". 45" is doable, but pushing the limit. 30" is a piece of cake.
It was intended for sidefills (sitting on a road case), or a drum fill or DJ fill.
In an install situation, weight is often not an issue, and having the sub and the full range in the cabinet means a better alignment, and only 1 cabinet to hang.
Post by: John L Nobile on February 16, 2018, 04:50:16 PM
I hope you misread the subject. The SM80F is a 215lb speaker with 2 15”, 1 12”, and a compression driver. They should not be on most crank stands, and probably shouldn’t be handled alone.
Mac
Oops. I did misread it. The mind is such a terrible thing to waste.
Still weighs less than an MLS3. I'm still moving those myself horizontaly but not vertically.
Post by: Art Welter on February 16, 2018, 05:17:33 PM
Oops. I did misread it. The mind is such a terrible thing to waste.The MLS3 (Microlinea Suspended) LED light is much lighter, the Meyers Sound Labs MSL3(A) weighs 241 pounds.
Still weighs less than an MLS3. I'm still moving those myself horizontaly but not vertically.
The "dust" on a 1980's vintage MSL3 could weigh several ounces, depending on which tours it was out on ;^)
Cheers,
Art
Post by: John L Nobile on February 16, 2018, 05:26:35 PM
The MLS3 (Microlinea Suspended) LED light is much lighter, the Meyers Sound Labs MSL3(A) weighs 241 pounds.
The "dust" on a 1980's vintage MSL3 could weigh several ounces, depending on which tours it was out on ;^)
Cheers,
Art
I think I'm losing it. It's been a really rough day at work. And it's not over yet.