ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Aaron Talley on February 28, 2017, 10:45:27 AM
-
Hey all,
We will be building new amp racks over the next few months. I wanted to see what some of the regional and national houses are doing with amp racks. I would like to see how places are making their system packaging faster and more simple.
Distros, connectivity, ease of use, speed.
What are the things you've seen and thought, "that is a great idea."
It would be great to see some pictures.
Thanks,
Talley
-
The usual questions: i/o and power - on top, on bottom, in front or in back; how many fans (if any); include data hardware (switches & i/o); lid-over, conventional lids or "hidden lids".
Or is there something else you're looking for?
-
We have had a couple people suggest a few different things.
One of the things suggested was to have all of the small distros in the racks have cams power in and through.
And yes. what are the most useful and user friendly setups you have for i/o and power and front or back and things?
Thanks
-
We have had a couple people suggest a few different things.
One of the things suggested was to have all of the small distros in the racks have cams power in and through.
And yes. what are the most useful and user friendly setups you have for i/o and power and front or back and things?
Thanks
You don't need cam in/through in each rack. Use a central distro with cam in/through, then run twist locks to your racks. Keep it all on one side for cabling.
This is pretty simple, don't overthink it. I will say if you're starting from scratch you have an opportunity to run your amps at higher voltage. Higher voltage = less current, and possibly (probably) better subwoofer performance.
You can also get away with smaller feeder, and that's a very good thing.
Are you doing single or three phase, and what are your amplifiers?
-
Our racks have 3 amps each with an L21-30 rack distro. Very nice having each amp on its own circuit with one cable run.
I'm also a big fan of "slam latch" racks where the lid hinges open and slides back into the case. Requires the rack be a little larger, but you can get ones that fit in a truck pack well. I can't stand spending time during load-in looking for places to store lids or searching for them during load-out when somebody stashed them somewhere a little too clever.
I also prefer all my I/O in the front of the rack so I can easily see/access everything easily. Too many times where I've had to park the back of the rack against a wall or stage and it's a pain to get to the patch panels as the area fills up. But everyone you ask will have a different opinion on this.
-
My favourite racks to work with always had the following features:
Wheels
Connectors all on the front at the bottom.
Power in and out, usually 32A @240v.
XLR in and out.
NL8 main outputs (this was usually driving Nexo Alpha, which had NL8 ins and split out to NL4 for the kick and sub sections), but also a couple of NL4 outputs that in our case could be used for direct connections to the subwoofers.
That was pretty flexible. You could run the whole PA off a single 32A feed if needed, but usually we'd grab a 125A 3-phase distro and power it properly.
XLR ins and outs means you can send a signal down the return of an analogue snake with a gender bender at FOH (if needed), and also parallel racks with minimal fuss.
Having the LF output of the rack available seperately was useful for centre-clustered subs.
Cables next to the floor means they're more likely to be kicked, but it was much tidier and cable management was much easier - no cables draping over the processor/amp controls.
All connections on the front means troubleshooting gets easier - I don't want to mess with a connector on the back while looking at the processor on the front for signal lights or whatever.
Chris
-
Distros, connectivity, ease of use, speed.
Continue to use what you have until the inevitable upgrade to self-powered. Unless you are making a "+3db leap" in overall efficiency or payback, store your acorns.
What soundworld needs now is a rugged, tour quality, single cable, high capacity, field repairable, power+data connector. (Perhaps it already exists in MIL world?)
...and a pay raise.
-
........
XLR in and out.
NL8 main outputs (this was usually driving Nexo Alpha, which had NL8 ins and split out to NL4 for the kick and sub sections), but also a couple of NL4 outputs that in our case could be used for direct connections to the subwoofers.
........
Cables next to the floor means they're more likely to be kicked, but it was much tidier and cable management was much easier - no cables draping over the processor/amp controls.
All connections on the front means troubleshooting gets easier - I don't want to mess with a connector on the back while looking at the processor on the front for signal lights or whatever.
Chris
Agreed on all of the above. Our amps are all four channel units, so each gets an NL8 and four NL4s on the patch panel. Also nice to be able to loop signal to an adjacent rack using the XLR outs.
-
What soundworld needs now is a rugged, tour quality, single cable, high capacity, field repairable, power+data connector. (Perhaps it already exists in MIL world?)
...and a pay raise.
Similar to the opticalCON from Neutrik, Higher contact rating and Cat6 or 7all in one, would be great for lighting too, power and DMX in one cable.
-
There was an option from Sommercable that combined data, audio and power in one connector but for some reason they don't sell it anymore.
They do still sell Siamese cables with power and data/audio.
Sent from my Lumia 625 using Tapatalk
-
What soundworld needs now is a rugged, tour quality, single cable, high capacity, field repairable, power+data connector. (Perhaps it already exists in MIL world?)
Meyer VEAM? OK, probably not field repairable.
We've got some wedges with VEAM, slick but we eventually came to the conclusion that separate standard connectors would have been slightly easier and definitely cheaper.
-
Continue to use what you have until the inevitable upgrade to self-powered. Unless you are making a "+3db leap" in overall efficiency or payback, store your acorns.
What soundworld needs now is a rugged, tour quality, single cable, high capacity, field repairable, power+data connector. (Perhaps it already exists in MIL world?)
...and a pay raise.
You can find some choices on page 13 of THIS CATALOG (http://linkusa-inc.com/Portals/0/Reference/Catalogue2016/Link-LK-Connectors-2016.pdf), they look like this:
-
You can find some choices on page 13 of THIS CATALOG (http://linkusa-inc.com/Portals/0/Reference/Catalogue2016/Link-LK-Connectors-2016.pdf), they look like this:
I get a boner looking at the LK catalog.
-
I get a boner looking at the LK catalog.
They make great products.
Mac
-
They make great products.
Mac
Used LK150s on all of our analog snakes for many years. Bullet proof.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
I was thinking of something like a PowerCon w/cat6.
-
Used LK150s on all of our analog snakes for many years. Bullet proof.
We also went this way when we finally purchased "big boy" splits last year. Very happy with the decision.
-
I was thinking of something like a PowerCon w/cat6.
Well, you couldn't do anything with a twist and high speed data. A pull ring latch maybe.
Technically possible, but a lot of agencies to deal with...
-
this is what sommer used: http://www.harting.co.uk/product-centreindustrial-connectors/markets-applications/broadcastandentertainment/concertandtheatreinstallation/audiosystemdistribution/ it is the Harting han modular system.
-
Hey all,
We will be building new amp racks over the next few months. I wanted to see what some of the regional and national houses are doing with amp racks. I would like to see how places are making their system packaging faster and more simple.
Distros, connectivity, ease of use, speed.
What are the things you've seen and thought, "that is a great idea."
It would be great to see some pictures.
Thanks,
Talley
Here are a couple of my thoughts:
1. Pocket doors are a must. I hate searching for and sorting through a stack of lids to find the right one for a given box. The Olympic Fastpack racks are a fantastic implementation as they also feature a shock mounted internal rack for the gear. The attached image is an Olympic 16RU Fastpack, though Olympic will make them in any size you want.
2. Internal distro should keep power input cable attached and have a place to store it. It does not need to be a lot of cable, but just 25 feet would be enough to provide easy connection to the main distro. It seems silly to me to have to provide another case to tote power cabling for the rack along with the rack. Your Distro should generally be located near your amp racks. However, if you need an extension, you can always add one. The attached image has a 25' whip with a 50A 240V California Plug on it to jack into a distro.
3. Networking hardware should be built into the rack and be a part of your system solution. The attached image has two Cisco SG300-10 network switches rack mounted in the back of the rack on the same rails that support the rear of the amplifiers. This provides Dante primary and secondary connectivity. In this case, the primary Dante network also provides control connectivity for the amplifiers.
4. In the case of the attached image, the I/O panel is on the front. It can easily be moved to the back. People prefer them different ways based on the types of gigs that they do. I do such a wide variety of things, I'll use them either way and be happy about it. I will say, clearly labeled I/O panels are a must. It should be obvious what is supposed to connect to where. There should be no question when it comes time to hook it up.
-
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
That is a nice looking rack.
I was starting to think no one was going to post a picture.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Talley
-
I was starting to think no one was going to post a picture.
Attached is a picture of one of our newest amp racks.
I agree with Josh on a lot of points. Pocket doors are wonderful. All connections in the front. There is a network switch in the rear.
-
Haven't see anyone else mention it so...
Put lighting in your rack for patching in the dark. There are a variety of ways to accomplish this, but whatever way you do it, make sure that it will be effective when the I/O panel has a bunch of connectors in it.
My favorite is This Type (http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/238057-Middle-Atlantic-Products-LT-GN-PNL), Which have 2 gooseneck lights so they can be positioned for maximum visibility.
-
Pictures? OK the rack on the left powers SL subs and front fills, the rack on the right is main PA.
The i/o patch on the subs rack duplicates the I TECH HD ch1 outputs. There are 2 front inputs with loop through outs - exactly to or from which amps is determined by patching in the back. In this case the first in and loop out is for subs, the second for FF.
The PA rack has the Schubert Systems Red Box panels. The top 1 space is audio in/loop out, the next is Data ports x2 (one is damaged and taped over). At the bottom is AC in and speaker outs on both NL8 and socapex.
The racks are StageGear/Blackhurst with pocket doors
-
YAY! Amp Rack Porn!! [Sorry for the tilted picture. I think I was missing a shoe.]
Here's our current VerTec rack. I-Tech 5000HD (2) and I-Tech 9000HD (2) powering 4 boxes of JBL VT4888, using v5 presets. At the top, XLR in and out (two channels; each one goes down Ch1 and Ch2. However, the VerTec presets use Input Y, so only Channel 1 is needed. I have them both wired, though, as some times I need to use a random box count, and have a single rack Ch1 handles SL and Ch2 handles SR. So, both channels XLR loop through the amps.
Ethercon, 2 channels, to a gigabit switch mounted on the back side. 8 ports.
Motion Labs RackPack. L21-30 I/O to 4 circuits, each amp on its own circuit. The MF and HF amps share one leg of the L21-30; the two LF amps are each on their own leg of the L21-30.
Rock Hard Cases amp rack with disappearing lids. I am ordering them in a blue color; blue will be "our color" and that's how I am having all future cases built. These cases were measured to always fit 4-across in a 92" or 96" wide truck. Mark's good people. Not sure how you would order this case from him, tho, because it's one of those "hidden menu" items. Buddy of mine in Seattle went 9 rounds with Mark to get the build just right. He'll custom build anything though, and since he's less than 100 miles south of our shop, it's super convenient for us. Square corners. Never thought about them before, but I now prefer square over ball corners.
-Ray
-
Is there a reason for I/O at the top of the racks instead of just above the power? Old backs bending over to see connections? Always seemed to me that I wanted to have the front panels of the amps clear.
-
YAY! Amp Rack Porn!!
I'm in the process of reworking my 4-way racks, but here's a 3-way + 2 biamped monitor mix version:
Dave
-
YAY! Amp Rack Porn!!
LOL
-
Is there a reason for I/O at the top of the racks instead of just above the power? Old backs bending over to see connections? Always seemed to me that I wanted to have the front panels of the amps clear.
The Schubert RedBox racks came from Schubert that way (with original ITechs, a few years ago). I put the signal i/o & data at the top of the sub racks to match and brought out the NL4 to the front so I could avoid having to be in the back of the racks on every load in/out.
There is another pair of racks for the other side of the stage that match. This is the only venue these racks get used in (split phase 120/240v power) so there is not a lot of pressure to match our other PA racks, which have the same i/o as the sub rack pictured above, but with NL8 on the bottom like the Schubert Red Box. I like having signal up off the floor but rather have the heavy cables down low. At some point the rest of our subwoofer racks and side hang racks will get their specialty speaker connectors (moving to Soca) down by the power inlet and the NL4 up top will be for when the rack is used for other things.
HTH.
ps. My little bit of OCD likes things neat and tidy and the pic shows the racks at load out. I'd started taking the SL side apart and remembered I'd promised pics for this thread...
-
Is there a reason for I/O at the top of the racks instead of just above the power? Old backs bending over to see connections? Always seemed to me that I wanted to have the front panels of the amps clear.
If the amps are old heavy ones, the rack might not tip over as easy if the weight is closer the bottom.
-
We have had a couple people suggest a few different things.
One of the things suggested was to have all of the small distros in the racks have cams power in and through.
And yes. what are the most useful and user friendly setups you have for i/o and power and front or back and things?
Thanks
Hey Talley!
The Cam in works when you have a ton of amps in a big double wide rack.
Spectrum does like a whole side of the PA with one big double wide and a small 200A distro built in. I cannot find a picture, but I think it will be like 12 D&B D80 Amps and a distro.
Otherwise, having 3 or 4 amps and a 2RU L21-30 distro is pretty standard.
I prefer all I/O on the front, and pocket doors are a must.
I will text you a picture next time I am at Spectrum.
-
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170319/90bcf372409febf93a995b55576eee16.jpg)
Here is one I built recently. Picture doesn't show the multi pin. And the two non display amps were swapped with display models shortly after this picture was taken.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
I sometimes work with a small regional sound company, which runs an old school analog system based on Meyer MSL-3's and 650-P's, Gamble consoles, and Crest Pro series amps. We have a few digital consoles, but everything else is analog.
We do a mix of events, ranging from city park gigs with 2 pairs of MSL-3's, to festivals with a full rig. As such, the amp racks are set up as low density modules, which can be combined as needed.
Each rack is a custom box, grey carpeted, in our standard 24"x30" footprint, containing a 10u shock-mounted rack section, with a shallow cable trunk section above that for looms, AC jumpers, etc.
Covers are slip-in panels with butterfly latches, which we store in the top section when not in use. The older (main) racks are built with a standard trunk lid with a 2" rise, the newer monitor racks are built with a flat lid, with flip over hinges.
Each of the main racks are loaded with a pair of Meyer processors, a pair of Crest amps (7001 and 8001), and a 2u drawer for adapters.
I/O and power is on the rear.
For power, we use a L14-30P on the supply side, powering a single amp per leg, and also split out to a pair of L5-30R's to power subs/etc.
Inputs are XLR, outputs are EP4.
-
I'd like to see a picture those racks pls😬
Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
-
Senny 9000 Rack
-
FOH Rack (less DSP).
-
Recording Rack.
-
Where did you get those small slam latch access doors?