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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Frederik Rosenkjær on April 11, 2011, 02:20:09 PM
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After having gotten some real gigging experiences with my 2 x SH46s I'm only beginning to understand how ridiculously powerful they are and they keep making me smile at how fantastic they sound.
Now my vote for next hole to plug in the product line-up is a smaller speaker with emphasis on power. The compromises you have purportedly made with respect to sound quality on the SH46 are laughably small. I HAVE heard the SH50 albeit not side by side with the SH46 but I do not feel there's any significant difference. In any case, the worst sounding DSL-box I've ever heard still sounds better than any box of any other maker I've ever heard.
But, still I know of no replacement for a single d&b Q7 pr. side for small gigs, when it comes to power AND sound quality in a small package. The SH46 is too much for one person to handle alone every day and way overkill for ~200 crowds, so the world needs (or at least I need) a half-size and weight SH46, perhaps with a bit wider coverage (for single cab use) but with the power to do rock drums for these crowd sizes. The SH46 proves you can do it.
My $.02
Engage. ;D
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After having gotten some real gigging experiences with my 2 x SH46s I'm only beginning to understand how ridiculously powerful they are and they keep making me smile at how fantastic they sound.
Now my vote for next hole to plug in the product line-up is a smaller speaker with emphasis on power. The compromises you have purportedly made with respect to sound quality on the SH46 are laughably small. I HAVE heard the SH50 albeit not side by side with the SH46 but I do not feel there's any significant difference. In any case, the worst sounding DSL-box I've ever heard still sounds better than any box of any other maker I've ever heard.
But, still I know of no replacement for a single d&b Q7 pr. side for small gigs, when it comes to power AND sound quality in a small package. The SH46 is too much for one person to handle alone every day and way overkill for ~200 crowds, so the world needs (or at least I need) a half-size and weight SH46, perhaps with a bit wider coverage (for single cab use) but with the power to do rock drums for these crowd sizes. The SH46 proves you can do it.
My $.02
Engage. ;D
I want a dedicated, killer front-fill box. Extra points if it can do under-balcony duty, too.
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I want a dedicated, killer front-fill box. Extra points if it can do under-balcony duty, too.
I concur.
Are you listening. Mr Danley ? Mr Hedden ?
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I want a dedicated, killer front-fill box. Extra points if it can do under-balcony duty, too.
What does that mean, specifically? I mean - like an SH95 or SM96 with more power? Or what are you missing in the current line-up?
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I want a dedicated, killer front-fill box. Extra points if it can do under-balcony duty, too.
I concur.
Are you listening. Mr Danley ? Mr Hedden ?
It on on the "to do list". Infocomm??
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Now my vote for next hole to plug in the product line-up is a smaller speaker with emphasis on power.
But, still I know of no replacement for a single d&b Q7 pr. side for small gigs, when it comes to power AND sound quality in a small package. The SH46 is too much for one person to handle alone every day and way overkill for ~200 crowds, so the world needs (or at least I need) a half-size and weight SH46, perhaps with a bit wider coverage (for single cab use) but with the power to do rock drums for these crowd sizes. The SH46 proves you can do it.
My $.02
Engage. ;D
I am working on something exactly like what you are talking about-but with a different pattern.-and other products as well. But I can't give any more information now. My plan is by infocomm in June or earlier.
Patience my friend.
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I want a dedicated, killer front-fill box. Extra points if it can do under-balcony duty, too.
would the sh-mini work?
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I want a dedicated, killer front-fill box. Extra points if it can do under-balcony duty, too.
would the sh-mini work?
In a lot of cases (it depends on the particular needs of the customer), the SH mini is to tall (and a good number of people are using them as such). Especially for most underbalcony situations. I am looking at something that is a little over 1/2 the vertical size with a more full range response and greater output. It is still on the "list" right now-so only conceptual.
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Hi Frederik, all
I am glad you’re enjoying the speakers AND that you wrote about them, it is hard to describe how something sounds on paper haha. Do try them in your living room, I could never go back to electrostats.
I think the box Ivan mentioned is percolating might be along the line Tim and Tom mention as well, it will be a wide angle (low Q) high front to back directivity box which is compatible / array able with an adjacent box or boundary (like the floor / wall / ceiling) without producing reflections, like the other synergy horns with a cut angle.
On the front side, It is something like an SH-100 but larger where the modest appearing horn actually raises the mid band sensitivity a bunch (which you must pad out in the Xo, allowing the driver to loaf in the vocal range).
That gives a CD coverage and very high front to back sound level ratio (cool for installations) even though it has a wide angle.
The driver geometry and Synergy style crossover like in your SH-46 boxes produce an output absent the phase shift normally present in passive filters which makes it appear to be one driver with no lobes or nulls in the pattern.
An advantage of having all the drivers connected to one horn is that the horn mouth can be as large as the cabinet and the pattern loss frequency is connected to that size and angle.
The other “sharp” side of that same sword is the cutoff at the pattern edge is much more noticeable and so having the at least the angle relative to the peeps is very desirable.
So, lets say you had a typical speaker on a stick job like you mentioned. With Harry Potters wand in hand, would you make it louder, make it smaller, make it sound better, change the radiation pattern, or relative to that one, what direction would you go (being somewhat realistic) to make it ideal for your use?
If one had a dedicated subwoofer on the ground (allowing a low corner near 100-125Hz), one could make something very loud and pretty small on a pole I think.
Best regards,
Tom Danley
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{much appreciated good news snipped}
So, lets say you had a typical speaker on a stick job like you mentioned. With Harry Potters wand in hand, would you make it louder, make it smaller, make it sound better, change the radiation pattern, or relative to that one, what direction would you go (being somewhat realistic) to make it ideal for your use?
For a Newbie, you sure ask a lot of questions! ::) My answer is, 'yes.' Smaller/lighter/better is the mantra; throw in 'cheaper' and the search for the Grail is on. Changing patterns/aiming in the field would be very, very cool. How about a "zoom"? 2:1 ratio, a 70°x70° becomes 35°x35° for example... or 90 to 45. How about selectable asymmetrical coverage, on the line of the Kudo, but that sounds good?
For the front fill application, I want a wide horizontal with a fairly short vertical, say 120° x 40° with a long term output of around 120-126dBA @ 1 meter; flat from 200-ish Hz to infrared (nudge, wink...16k will do). The under-balcony version would probably need 60° vertical. Both need to have a profile of <10", width is less of a consideration. Let me know how the wand thing works out. :D
If one had a dedicated subwoofer on the ground (allowing a low corner near 100-125Hz), one could make something very loud and pretty small on a pole I think.
Best regards,
Tom Danley
I'll be happy to test drive the result of your thinking, Tom.
Thanks for your post.
Tim Mc
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Thanks, Tom.
Sounds delightful. I want one. No, two!
I am, however, a little confused about who your target customer would be for such a box. What good is a small-room, small-crowd box if the small-time guys who typically do those rooms don't earn enough to justify the cost of such a product? Could we wave that wand toward affordability as well?
If a young fellow with a small company could be introduced to your product line early on, he would automatically seek out the rest of the products as his company grows. My advice, (not that you need my advice,) would be, lower the price and use that product as a lure-in for the rest.
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For the front fill application, I want a wide horizontal with a fairly short vertical, say 120° x 40° with a long term output of around 120-126dBA @ 1 meter; flat from 200-ish Hz to infrared (nudge, wink...16k will do). The under-balcony version would probably need 60° vertical. Both need to have a profile of <10", width is less of a consideration. Let me know how the wand thing works out. :D
Tim Mc
I agree on the patterns that you suggest-HOWEVER-physics doesn't work that way.
As you go to a narrower pattern-the horn dimension has to get LARGER in order to maintain that pattern.
Lets say you have a box that is 10" so the horn opening is around 7" (once you subtract out the top and bottom wood, mounting etc) and it is 20°. That would have a pattern control down to around 7KHz, Below that the pattern would be wider.
So while it may have a "rating" of 20°, the actual pattern over most of the usable range would be MUCH wider. So it is not of much good-at least how you "think" it should be working.
So just settle for a larger vertical pattern OR a much taller box.
If somebody claims to have a narrow pattern in a small horn-be sure to look at the polar response to see how it ACTUALLY operates and over what range.
It for for that same reason that our little SH100 has pattern control down so low. Because the horn has a wide pattern. If it were a narrower pattern of the same size-the control would be not be as low.
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Hi Frederik, all
Hello Tom - thanks for your reply! (first post on the new forum too, I see :) )
I am glad you’re enjoying the speakers AND that you wrote about them, it is hard to describe how something sounds on paper haha. Do try them in your living room, I could never go back to electrostats.
Just used them last week-end two times for Norwegian funk master Ole Børud and got great feedback. A Norwegian guy in the audience (in Copenhagen) asked what in the world that was - if it was d&b or what. Said he'd never heard anything like it. Neither have I.
An advantage of having all the drivers connected to one horn is that the horn mouth can be as large as the cabinet and the pattern loss frequency is connected to that size and angle.
The other “sharp” side of that same sword is the cutoff at the pattern edge is much more noticeable and so having the at least the angle relative to the peeps is very desirable.
True - and this is where the 60 degrees horisontal coverage of the SH46 (I'm laying them down on their side, which also takes some ingenuity...and a retired metalworker friend :) ) often needs a little help.
So far my plan is two pr. side, only problem is, I'll probably never need the output of that configuration - only the coverage.
So, lets say you had a typical speaker on a stick job like you mentioned. With Harry Potters wand in hand, would you make it louder, make it smaller, make it sound better, change the radiation pattern, or relative to that one, what direction would you go (being somewhat realistic) to make it ideal for your use?
If one had a dedicated subwoofer on the ground (allowing a low corner near 100-125Hz), one could make something very loud and pretty small on a pole I think.
Best regards,
Tom Danley
Though I hate to admit it, I do see Gordon's point - I'm probably not the typical PA-buyer. My business is a kind of weekend warrior on steroids with respect to quality and quantity. I'm trying to pack as much (channels, mics, monitor mixes, wedges, mains and even lights) in as small a van as possible.
For the last 5 years my mains have been a single d&b AudioTechnik Q7 pr. side (plus subs, of course). This cab is a good idea of what I need. It weighs 49 lbs, is a little smaller than the SM60, has very good pattern control (though not as good as a SH of that size, obviously), sounds very very good and gets incredibly loud - 138 dB. It can really play drums, which in my book is sort of what separates the wheat from the chaff. This can do "speaker on a stick" jobs that don't sound like speaker on a stick-jobs.
Why not just keep that, then? Well, so far I am. But it would be great to have the same in a Synergy Horn, sounding even better, having even better dispersion control and not having to switch amps back and forth all the time, since they use their own proprietary amps.
So with Harry Potter's wand I'd want to conjure up:
- SM60-style cab size and weight (the key here is that it must managable by one person which no DSL cabinet above 130 dB SPL currently is)
- 75-90 x 40 degrees coverage (how about making asymmetrical coverage/shaded amplitude the standard btw.? I hate always having to waste half the pattern into the ceiling where it only does harm, and right on the axis people are always further away (always = 99%+ in my case)
- High 130's SPL (gotta have the muscle for that snare drum 150-200 Hz punch)
- Don't know what to say about sound quality. As long as DSL is willing to put your name on it, history shows it's fantastic
- Only use with subwoofers, 100-ish low knee is fine (I really love that suggestion. I'll never use them alone, so why not free up all that power that is lost in the tuning there!)
- Screw the cost (it's my dream scenario - I'll pay up ;D )
A different issue, which may be for another person at DSL is mounting. My recommendation would be for DSL to rent a d&b Q7 or two with D12 amp, and besides checking out what that can do audio wise (goes well with TH212 and TH118) get the d&b Swivel Bracket and see how that thing works. The mounting options for these speakers are so numerous and with the bracket it is incredibly fast and easy for one person to deploy, both on a stand (with 35mm attachment) or hanging (with a 28mm TV-spigot and a pipe clamp). The bracket attaches to the side of the cabinet with a slide-and-lock safety pin mechanism that takes about a second. Both horizontal and vertical alignment is now totally free and the speaker stays where you leave it.
For someone like me that is a big deal. Not having to screw in a long thread all the way and what not. Just slide the thing in place, put in the safety pin and there you go. This is the only place where DSL is lagging in my opinion.
Sorry for the long post. You should never have asked ;)
Say hello to Doug Jones from me - we met exactly a year ago in Poland!
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I agree on the patterns that you suggest-HOWEVER-physics doesn't work that way.
As you go to a narrower pattern-the horn dimension has to get LARGER in order to maintain that pattern.
Lets say you have a box that is 10" so the horn opening is around 7" (once you subtract out the top and bottom wood, mounting etc) and it is 20°. That would have a pattern control down to around 7KHz, Below that the pattern would be wider.
So while it may have a "rating" of 20°, the actual pattern over most of the usable range would be MUCH wider. So it is not of much good-at least how you "think" it should be working.
So just settle for a larger vertical pattern OR a much taller box.
If somebody claims to have a narrow pattern in a small horn-be sure to look at the polar response to see how it ACTUALLY operates and over what range.
It for for that same reason that our little SH100 has pattern control down so low. Because the horn has a wide pattern. If it were a narrower pattern of the same size-the control would be not be as low.
All true, but for a theatrical type front fill, probably not as big an issue. Since the listener will be within the very narrow vertical coverage, and the level will be low compared to the rest of the PA, the fact that the pattern blossoms at lower frequencies is not that much of a problem, till you get completely behind the speaker. Very low frequencies, where even larger speakers begin to go omni, will likely be filtered out before the speaker.
A 10" tall box is way too big for a theatrical front fill. Think Meyer UPM1, or Meyer M1D sized. Or at the extreme, Meyer MM1.
These would usually be mounted with U brackets to the front of the stage.
Mac
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I agree on the patterns that you suggest-HOWEVER-physics doesn't work that way.
True, but Tom is getting a magician's wand! The laws of physics (and disbelief) are waived.
Work with me here, Ivan!
Have fun.
Tim Mc
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(snip...)
So, lets say you had a typical speaker on a stick job like you mentioned. With Harry Potters wand in hand, would you make it louder, make it smaller, make it sound better, change the radiation pattern, or relative to that one, what direction would you go (being somewhat realistic) to make it ideal for your use?
If one had a dedicated subwoofer on the ground (allowing a low corner near 100-125Hz), one could make something very loud and pretty small on a pole I think.
Best regards,
Tom Danley
Well since you asked, and I've always wanted to say, I'll gladly give you my irrational wish list!
If I were to imagine the product that you could make that would get me to finally buy the Danley system I've always wanted it would be somewhere in between the SH46 & SM60F. My priority would be high sensitivity, and manageable weight size for one person. I'm not concerned about LF extension below ~100 (because I'll always have subs), and ultra high power handling because for my gigs low current draw is a plus. I'd like them to stand alone nicely, but be arrayable to a point (2 per side is fine, maybe 3).
To be overly specific, the bullet points would read like this:
* Danley Sound that everyone raves about.
* 103+ sens
* ~1000W power handling
* 80~100lbs
* stacks nicely on a TH115/118 sub, and makes a good 1 sub & top per side setup
* horizontal coverage over 60, below 90
* Flyable/Pole mountable a plus (but not critical)
My application is 90% 1 top & sub per side, but I run several systems a night, so if I'm going to have 6 of the same top box, I'd like to be able to put them together for the larger gig that does come up from time to time. My current main speaker is the Radian RPX215, which is heavy and has a 90* dispersion, otherwise a nice box for my purpose.
So how close can magic get me?
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Well since you asked, and I've always wanted to say, I'll gladly give you my irrational wish list!
If I were to imagine the product that you could make that would get me to finally buy the Danley system I've always wanted it would be somewhere in between the SH46 & SM60F. My priority would be high sensitivity, and manageable weight size for one person. I'm not concerned about LF extension below ~100 (because I'll always have subs), and ultra high power handling because for my gigs low current draw is a plus. I'd like them to stand alone nicely, but be arrayable to a point (2 per side is fine, maybe 3).
To be overly specific, the bullet points would read like this:
* Danley Sound that everyone raves about.
* 103+ sens
* ~1000W power handling
* 80~100lbs
* stacks nicely on a TH115/118 sub, and makes a good 1 sub & top per side setup
* horizontal coverage over 60, below 90
* Flyable/Pole mountable a plus (but not critical)
My application is 90% 1 top & sub per side, but I run several systems a night, so if I'm going to have 6 of the same top box, I'd like to be able to put them together for the larger gig that does come up from time to time. My current main speaker is the Radian RPX215, which is heavy and has a 90* dispersion, otherwise a nice box for my purpose.
So how close can magic get me?
Your wish may be granted shortly. That is right up on top of my "to do" list.
Stay tuned.
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I'm in agreement with Fredrick.
I want a SM60 style one man box with output beyond the normal pole mounted speakers. I was hoping the new TMS would be just that: arrayable, 60-70 H x 40-50 V and high 130's, but it is not. So if you could take the SM60 form factor and get below 180hz with 106 sensitivity then I think you'd have a product to fit companies like mine. I realize this will is a somewhat "market specific" box, but it is what I want. Thanks for listening.
Chris Gennette
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* ~1000W power handling
Why does it matter how much power they handle as long as they get to the SPL needed? Just get an amp that does it.
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* ~1000W power handling
Why does it matter how much power they handle as long as they get to the SPL needed? Just get an amp that does it.
And I would like to turn the wand around.
What I would like would be for users to stop prejuding a particular product by either its "power handling" or by the driver used inside.
It should all be about how well the particular product does the job-sound quality-coverage-loudness-freq response etc-NOT by what means it accomplishes it.
I hear it all the time-"Well that product only has a "so and so" driver in it, there is no way it could work". Have you actually tried listening to it? or is everything prejudged on old outdated notions?
So now everybody is a "loudspeaker designer"? Like the old judgement of magnet weight when neo came out. Well that magnet is so small-there is no way it could produce that much sound and so forth.
I will leave it at that-but could go on and on.
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Why does it matter how much power they handle as long as they get to the SPL needed? Just get an amp that does it.
Amen. As someone who was previously guilty of this sin, I concur.
I used to tell people "look for the best max power handling to weight ratio to volume ratio" in the cabinets you buy. Then I found some speakers that are 10 dB less sensitive than the ones I normally use and that changed that statement real quick.
And I would like to turn the wand around.
What I would like would be for users to stop prejuding a particular product by either its "power handling" or by the driver used inside.
It should all be about how well the particular product does the job-sound quality-coverage-loudness-freq response etc-NOT by what means it accomplishes it.
I hear it all the time-"Well that product only has a "so and so" driver in it, there is no way it could work". Have you actually tried listening to it? or is everything prejudged on old outdated notions?
So now everybody is a "loudspeaker designer"? Like the old judgement of magnet weight when neo came out. Well that magnet is so small-there is no way it could produce that much sound and so forth.
I will leave it at that-but could go on and on.
Don't I hear that complaint quite frequently over at the BFM forums? :-)
Seriously, though, when a product has a "so and so driver" in it, my first thought is my sound engineer who can't keep the "power amp meters out of the red." Ought to fire the dude before he blows up my speakers, but that's where having *good* drivers really helps (JBLs, in this particular case).
More on topic: I must admit that I learned about Danley a while back while perusing the BFM forums to see if there was anything useful to me there. As soon as I get my current "A" system completely built up (need to add 6 SRX 712m or VRX 915m monitors, a couple more SRX 725 cabs and two more SRX 728s subs), I'm definitely planning on my next "A" system to be Danley. The TH118 cabs along with something SHxx looks really cool. So I'd certainly be in the market for something (though I'll probably need to handle a crowd of 5,000+ outdoors with whatever I come up with for the new "A" system, so maybe the small top wouldn't be appropriate, I don't know yet). OTOH, some small SHxx cabs for "speakers on sticks" jobs would be awesome!
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
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* ~1000W power handling
Why does it matter how much power they handle as long as they get to the SPL needed? Just get an amp that does it.
You know when I wrote that, it was more to say "doesn't need to be such a high power handling..." because with the SH46, SH64 & SH 96 rated at 2800W and with some of their subs going off into "you gotta be kidding land" it seemed like that was a trend. I presume, correct me if I'm wrong, significantly higher power handling could increase the cost of the box, and that wasn't a feature I was eager to pay for on that specific product I was describing.
I wanted the box to get to ~133db. If he makes a more sensitive box with lower power handling then I'll still be happy. But since I picked a sens of 103db, then it'd take 1000W to get up another 30db. These are really kinda arbitrary numbers I picked, but were for the purpose of explaining my desires. Er, I also have a couple of amp racks with 1000W @ 8Ohm for the highs, so that might have been a factor. But no prejudice was intended.
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Why does it matter how much power they handle as long as they get to the SPL needed? Just get an amp that does it.
I would add one comment to this:
If the SPL you need is sufficiently high that you've got to provide a *ton* of power, simply adding amps isn't always as easy as it sounds. Getting the power for those amps can be a problem. I have a 60KVA geni and once that's exhausted, I'm in a bit of a jam.
More on topic, boy, those SH46 boxes look like just the ticket for me. Wish I could carry (and afford!) SH25 boxes! 10 dB over my SRX boxes; now that would save me from having to tow another generator to a show :)
While in a Danley thread, I'm currently setting up my "A" system to handle as many as 3,000 people outdoors. Someday, I'd like to boost that to 5,000 people (outdoors, narrow but long crowd). What would be a good DSL setup for something like that? Can you effectively combine an SH25 with an SH46 (or multiple copies of each) to cover near and far groups? I see the DH50 has a small companion box for the first few rows; I'm just wondering if the longer-throw cabinets mesh together well, too.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde