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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Daniel Ong 1985 on April 11, 2015, 02:18:13 AM
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I am Daniel Ong from Singapore and I am wannabe sound engineer. I happened to come across your website when I was searching for difference between Kara and Y12....more of pros and cons for both system. I hope to know more sound engineers online to make friends and learn from them and I really hope you can assist me as I am unable to find much info comparing the above brands.
Recently I was with a events company trying out the Y12. Setup was as follows
1) one single array (fly)
2) Two subs (below the array)
We played random music from rock to jazz to techno. We did a cut on the D80 amp and I find that the high mids is very harsh, but when we remove the cut it sounds better.
With the cut, if the music goes too loud it makes it sounds messy because of the crispy high mids but I love how the vocals is able to cut through clearly with or without the cut.
I notice the speakers and subs don't jelly very well, I can distinctively identify the source of the sound coming from which directions. I have not heard Kara before and we are going to a second sound run for both speakers side by side. Y12 come across to me as a sound system for big disco clubs, but I have to admit....the subs are tight and strong...until a certain distance. Then again it is too early to judge as I have not hear what Kara sounds like.
What do you guys think? Do share with me your opinion and let me bring it to my next sound test.
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I am Daniel Ong from Singapore and I am wannabe sound engineer. I happened to come across your website when I was searching for difference between Kara and Y12....more of pros and cons for both system. I hope to know more sound engineers online to make friends and learn from them and I really hope you can assist me as I am unable to find much info comparing the above brands.
Recently I was with a events company trying out the Y12. Setup was as follows
1) one single array (fly)
2) Two subs (below the array)
We played random music from rock to jazz to techno. We did a cut on the D80 amp and I find that the high mids is very harsh, but when we remove the cut it sounds better.
With the cut, if the music goes too loud it makes it sounds messy because of the crispy high mids but I love how the vocals is able to cut through clearly with or without the cut.
I notice the speakers and subs don't jelly very well, I can distinctively identify the source of the sound coming from which directions. I have not heard Kara before and we are going to a second sound run for both speakers side by side. Y12 come across to me as a sound system for big disco clubs, but I have to admit....the subs are tight and strong...until a certain distance. Then again it is too early to judge as I have not hear what Kara sounds like.
What do you guys think? Do share with me your opinion and let me bring it to my next sound test.
My suggestion is two fold. 1 - Pay more attention, the thread labed "read before you post" and the warning when you signed up was not enough, you still did not use your real name. A requirement for these rooms.
2 - I think you need to learn your trade, it takes years of training to properly setup a line array and huge gigs and rooms to justify it. Neither of which is going to be an entry level event.
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My suggestion is two fold. 1 - Pay more attention, the thread labed "read before you post" and the warning when you signed up was not enough, you still did not use your real name. A requirement for these rooms.
2 - I think you need to learn your trade, it takes years of training to properly setup a line array and huge gigs and rooms to justify it. Neither of which is going to be an entry level event.
Hi Scott,
1) I did use my real name and I added my birth year inside.....I am Daniel Ong...ermm unless I am doing something wrongly please let me know in detail. Anyway I separated my name to make it clearer
2) Yes the reason I came in here is to learn. Hence I am trying to get info on L-Acoustic Kara and D&B Y12.
The mock up of the array was done by professional and I was invited to assist. In order to know more and gain knowledge, I came in here to hear views of what other sound engineers think about the 2 products. I also added my views on the product D&B Y12 to see if anyone agrees with me on the findings.
Thank you once again Scott for the 2 great advise. Please let me know of your views on these 2 products if you come across them. I am really thankful that I was invited to the sound test as not much venue/company is able to afford these wonderful instruments.
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You're good, Daniel, thank you. With the birth year involved, Scott might have thought it was a pseudonym, which is prohibited on here. We're all professionals, you see, of varying levels of expertise, but still- we say what we mean, and we stand behind what we've said without hiding behind an anonymous handle.
Anyways, these forums are certainly a great resource and will help you to learn a lot! With the exception of electrical and rigging, you can get advice and opinions on a wide variety of professional event production.
I've not used the Y12 boxes, but there's several Kara rigs in my neighborhood so they get used. One outfit has a bunch of those, plus K1s and uses the Karas as downfills from the K1s. Another guy has a small (12-16 boxes?) Kara rig, and it's gotten great use at small to medium sized block parties, and delay hangs at the Oregon Country Jamboree last year. Easy to rig, sound good-- and if you like brown you are good to go. :)
-Ray
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You're good, Daniel, thank you. With the birth year involved, Scott might have thought it was a pseudonym, which is prohibited on here. We're all professionals, you see, of varying levels of expertise, but still- we say what we mean, and we stand behind what we've said without hiding behind an anonymous handle.
Anyways, these forums are certainly a great resource and will help you to learn a lot! With the exception of electrical and rigging, you can get advice and opinions on a wide variety of professional event production.
I've not used the Y12 boxes, but there's several Kara rigs in my neighborhood so they get used. One outfit has a bunch of those, plus K1s and uses the Karas as downfills from the K1s. Another guy has a small (12-16 boxes?) Kara rig, and it's gotten great use at small to medium sized block parties, and delay hangs at the Oregon Country Jamboree last year. Easy to rig, sound good-- and if you like brown you are good to go. :)
-Ray
Hi Ray,
Thank you for assisting in clearing up the misunderstanding for Scott, I was kinda worried I did something wrong.
Have you heard any of the Kara? What do you think of them personally, don't worry as I won't be quoting you or anything. I want to take your view into account for my next test run. I need as much honest personal opinion for reference. I can go to LA website and sure they have testimony and I can read a lot from magazines. But raw opinion is hard to come by and hard truth is need to enhance professionalism in event by buying/using right equipment for suitable events.
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Hi Daniel-
What *we* think of the speaker systems doesn't matter so much as what YOU think of them and how well they meet the needs of the client and system owners.
Are there specific concerns about the differences between them?
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I have used the Kara and they are a great sounding box!
Recently used a D&B (similar size...not sure of model) and they too sounded very nice.
2 samples of some of the best sounding "line arrays" I have used.
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Hi Daniel-
What *we* think of the speaker systems doesn't matter so much as what YOU think of them and how well they meet the needs of the client and system owners.
Are there specific concerns about the differences between them?
Hi Tim,
Currently I have not hear Kara, but as per my first post I have describe the feeling I get from D&B. So I am just opening up my mind for different opinion and views. I felt that you are offended by something by using *we* and YOU which I felt from Scott. Personally apart from testing a purchase yourself, I believe majority would go to a forum to read for reviews and comment. There is no concern but just professional opinion on their view on the products.
For Kara I am hoping someone will give me their brief experience with the product, so that I am able to know what to expect when I go for the test. Of course I will take the aspect of the venue into consideration.
Sorry if I assume the hostility from you and Scott and apologize for any misunderstanding. Like I mentioned that I am here to read and learn.
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I have used the Kara and they are a great sounding box!
Recently used a D&B (similar size...not sure of model) and they too sounded very nice.
2 samples of some of the best sounding "line arrays" I have used.
Hi Keith,
Thank you for sharing, mind if i probe further on the nature of event so I can assume the track and music that is played. It is ok if you are unsure of the model. Was the D&B harsh on the high mids and when you push the fader further the vocal sounds messy?
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Hi all,
Just side track a bit, reason I ask for professional experience in the product is to take into account if the system is tune correctly and other factor. Of course with all precious experience that I gain here will help me when I am tuning the sound.
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I have heard some d&b, but not the ones you mentioned. They make a great product, but I prefer L Acoustics. I have heard the Kara, and it is very impressive. I recently invested in the Arcs WIFO system, because the Kara was out of my budget. If I had more money, I would own the Kara. For a mid size line array, I think it is the best out there.
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I have heard some d&b, but not the ones you mentioned. They make a great product, but I prefer L Acoustics. I have heard the Kara, and it is very impressive. I recently invested in the Arcs WIFO system, because the Kara was out of my budget. If I had more money, I would own the Kara. For a mid size line array, I think it is the best out there.
Hi Nate,
Thank you, I heard the Arcs before and they work well as a mid size array. Mind if I ask where and what kind of event Kara was use for?
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I listened to the Kara and Arcs Wifo at a private demo that was set up for me. I used all types of music, Jazz, hip hop, classic rock, modern rock, house, techno, etc. I also heard the Kara briefly at USITT show in Cincinnati, but I only heard speech on it at that event.
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I felt that you are offended by something by using *we* and YOU which I felt from Scott.
Sorry if I assume the hostility from you and Scott and apologize for any misunderstanding. Like I mentioned that I am here to read and learn.
He was using the caps and the asterisks for emphasis, nothing else. Tim's one of the consummate professionals on here-- I don't think I've ever seen an unprofessional post from him, or see him get in a pissing match with anyone about anything, other then when someone's asking to do something illegal or potentially deadly. (Enter gross stupidity on the part of whomever is involved...lol)
Where he was going with his comment, though, is that you need to define your needs for a new sound system. What do you have now? What budget do you have to work with? What does your current system lack that you are hoping to fix with this new purchase?
If you are looking at jumping right into a larger format system and starting a new company, I would exercise caution. It is very difficult to do that successfully, unless you have A LOT of money to tie up in gear/staffing/logistics/infrastructure until such time that you have enough large profile events to start recouping that investment... or you have a lot of connections already. Or a name that will just bring you business. (Say if Big Mick of Metallica wanted to start his own production company, you can bet a lot of people would hire him sight unseen because they know who he is. Or did he do that already? Haha.)
So can you share with us a bit more about your overall plans here?
-Ray
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Hi all,
Just side track a bit, reason I ask for professional experience in the product is to take into account if the system is tune correctly and other factor. Of course with all precious experience that I gain here will help me when I am tuning the sound.
I'm getting off track here. I know someone who spent $100K USD on a "small" Meyer line array. He doesn't have the clients that can pay for such a rig, nor a business plan that supports the purchase. And now he is taking on any job just to have revenue. The guy literally did an out-of-town gig with his Meyer rig for $2500. He had to beat out a JBL SRX ground stack system.
Anyway, I don't know your situation and I'm not trying to dissuade you from entering the sound business. The people on this board are very wise and have 20, 30, 40 years in the industry. There's a whole lot more to it than "is speaker A better than B."
Best of luck
JR
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I'm getting off track here. I know someone who spent $100K USD on a "small" Meyer line array. He doesn't have the clients that can pay for such a rig, nor a business plan that supports the purchase. And now he is taking on any job just to have revenue. The guy literally did an out-of-town gig with his Meyer rig for $2500. He had to beat out a JBL SRX ground stack system.
And while Meyer is a premium brand, so are L-Acoustic and d&b. Once you have the amps and processing you need, and everything is racked and cabled the $100,000 buy in is not out of line for all of these systems. You need a substantial client list with big budgets to make the purchase of any of these system a good business plan. Buying the expensive rig does not get you the big budget clients, they go to the experienced providers who have availability that meets any schedule and the experience and staff to pull off the big events.
If I won the lottery I'd start a sound company so I could do things my way, but I wouldn't be counting on it making any money.
Mac
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Hi Tim,
Currently I have not hear Kara, but as per my first post I have describe the feeling I get from D&B. So I am just opening up my mind for different opinion and views. I felt that you are offended by something by using *we* and YOU which I felt from Scott. Personally apart from testing a purchase yourself, I believe majority would go to a forum to read for reviews and comment. There is no concern but just professional opinion on their view on the products.
For Kara I am hoping someone will give me their brief experience with the product, so that I am able to know what to expect when I go for the test. Of course I will take the aspect of the venue into consideration.
Sorry if I assume the hostility from you and Scott and apologize for any misunderstanding. Like I mentioned that I am here to read and learn.
No hostility, Daniel, it's just that ultimately the rest of us don't have to answer for any decisions, impressions, or misinformation you may receive. Perhaps it's more of a "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" thing. I can be super impressed with Model 1, but for your needs Model 2 might be better. I don't know your actual needs so my comments could lead you to reach a conclusion that might not best fit your situation.
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
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No hostility, Daniel, it's just that ultimately the rest of us don't have to answer for any decisions, impressions, or misinformation you may receive. Perhaps it's more of a "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" thing. I can be super impressed with Model 1, but for your needs Model 2 might be better. I don't know your actual needs so my comments could lead you to reach a conclusion that might not best fit your situation.
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
Hi Tim,
Sorry for the misunderstanding and the clarification. Basically I am not the one using it, the event company that is gonna purchase it is well established and I happened to be invited to their test.
I have to admit that it is a wide eye experience for a green horn like me and I am thinking more on Band gigs, church concerts, huge beach dance party and stuff. Of course the venue will be from beach to stadium to medium size ball room for Dinner and Dance. Hence I am asking in term of all rounder.
And while Meyer is a premium brand, so are L-Acoustic and d&b. Once you have the amps and processing you need, and everything is racked and cabled the $100,000 buy in is not out of line for all of these systems. You need a substantial client list with big budgets to make the purchase of any of these system a good business plan. Buying the expensive rig does not get you the big budget clients, they go to the experienced providers who have availability that meets any schedule and the experience and staff to pull off the big events.
If I won the lottery I'd start a sound company so I could do things my way, but I wouldn't be counting on it making any money.
Mac
I'm getting off track here. I know someone who spent $100K USD on a "small" Meyer line array. He doesn't have the clients that can pay for such a rig, nor a business plan that supports the purchase. And now he is taking on any job just to have revenue. The guy literally did an out-of-town gig with his Meyer rig for $2500. He had to beat out a JBL SRX ground stack system.
Anyway, I don't know your situation and I'm not trying to dissuade you from entering the sound business. The people on this board are very wise and have 20, 30, 40 years in the industry. There's a whole lot more to it than "is speaker A better than B."
Best of luck
JR
Hi Mac & John,
Thank you for your advise, honestly I fully believe that there are senior engineers with vast experience for me to glean on. If I got that much capital I may just get a simple PA to start small and the rest for survival of the business. But currently I am just green horn and learning more on the trade..nevertheless there is wisdom is all your advise that I really appreciate for advising a new start up.
It was never a system A better than system B situation and more of something like the following I get by asking a senior engineer.
I spent all week playing with y series (y8 and ysubs) and found it to be a very smooth sounding package, very detailed, crisp sound, with a ton of headroom and it sounded great out of the box. I also loved the fact that 2 guys (me and the Lx guy, not locals built like brick s*** houses) could lift a 3 box HF array ontop of the 3 high sub stack for a ground stack comfortably, and how simple the rigging system was (compared to q, it's a dream)
I did find that I had to pull a couple of db out of the HF on the near field boxes in the y8 array, to stop it tearing people's faces off, as it can get stupidly loud.
To be honest though, Kara and y series are both great systems, and the choice between them is more 'how much can I get it for, what happens if it breaks, will it make its money back and what can I sub in when I need a bigger system' than which system is objectively better.
I have to agree that there are tons of head rooms and the high mid is very annoying and can rip your face off and sounded messy with the senior engineer.
His experience I paste it here to share his views and for people that is considering may look into these factors.
If they find that they do not experience same as us, it is ok as the condition we tested in may differ.
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Hi Ray,
Thank you for assisting in clearing up the misunderstanding for Scott, I was kinda worried I did something wrong.
Sorry Daniel, I thought there was a debate about you had to even put the space in your name. Hence to my understanding any pseudonym is discouraged.
Certainly no hostility. I realize with language barriers, short wording and abrupt verbiage come off wrong.
They key of my comment is what is the learning value of the opinions on these two high quality yet very different products? Selecting these will not be part of your duties for quite a while, nor will tuning them or running them. To a point you are involving the 5% of the most elite members of our group into a mental masturbation session (American slang).
We all read the magazines, the reviews of these products (get a free subscription if you have not already, to Live Sound International It has great beginner articles but enough tech porn to sate your desire).
IMHO, a better way of approaching using the forums for fundamental learning.
1 - Always ask a specific question IE: the L-Acoustic Kara has slightly more low end extension in the specifications vs the D7B Y12, would anyone share their experience to the real world performance?
2 - Let's say you are studying acoustic principles and you get stuck on application of a formula, rule of thumb etc. If you posted a sample design you did, where you got confused and asked what would Mac do (more American humor) you would get more assistance than you could imagine.
3 - Let's say you are running a small show with a quartet and you the vocal sound muddy despite your best attempts to equalize and make plenty of room for them in the mix. Asking how we would handle that would result in another deluge of opinions.
Remember, there are people here of widely varying skill levels, areas of expertise, way of doing things etc. Nothing is gospel and often there are many ways to achieve an acceptable outcome. That's where the forums are a challenge for those new to the business. You don't have a set of experiences to filter the immense amount of banter going on and how to apply it to what you are doing.
With that all in mind, this is one of the best run forums with a group of experienced folks that are incredibly gracious with, willing sharing lifetimes of experience.
So enjoy the journey and welcome to the forums. Again, please don't think I was rolling up the welcome matt.
Post Script - replied to your question to me before reading the second page of responses. Perhaps it would help us to define exactly what you do now? Are you employed by the production company and if so in what capacity.
I have been to many demo events, sat in on evaluations etc. but I have never been "given the stick" to put a tune of the system nor have the opportunity to rig and/or stack the gear.
Maybe your definition of "green horn" and ourselves is different, or perhaps you are very humble and have much experience. You could also be living out a fantasy vicariously through the forum (it's happened before!).
In any way, questions are the only way for us to get to know each other.
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Sorry Daniel, I thought there was a debate about you had to even put the space in your name. Hence to my understanding any pseudonym is discouraged.
Certainly no hostility. I realize with language barriers, short wording and abrupt verbiage come off wrong.
They key of my comment is what is the learning value of the opinions on these two high quality yet very different products? Selecting these will not be part of your duties for quite a while, nor will tuning them or running them. To a point you are involving the 5% of the most elite members of our group into a mental masturbation session (American slang).
We all read the magazines, the reviews of these products (get a free subscription if you have not already, to Live Sound International It has great beginner articles but enough tech porn to sate your desire).
IMHO, a better way of approaching using the forums for fundamental learning.
1 - Always ask a specific question IE: the L-Acoustic Kara has slightly more low end extension in the specifications vs the D7B Y12, would anyone share their experience to the real world performance?
2 - Let's say you are studying acoustic principles and you get stuck on application of a formula, rule of thumb etc. If you posted a sample design you did, where you got confused and asked what would Mac do (more American humor) you would get more assistance than you could imagine.
3 - Let's say you are running a small show with a quartet and you the vocal sound muddy despite your best attempts to equalize and make plenty of room for them in the mix. Asking how we would handle that would result in another deluge of opinions.
Remember, there are people here of widely varying skill levels, areas of expertise, way of doing things etc. Nothing is gospel and often there are many ways to achieve an acceptable outcome. That's where the forums are a challenge for those new to the business. You don't have a set of experiences to filter the immense amount of banter going on and how to apply it to what you are doing.
With that all in mind, this is one of the best run forums with a group of experienced folks that are incredibly gracious with, willing sharing lifetimes of experience.
So enjoy the journey and welcome to the forums. Again, please don't think I was rolling up the welcome matt.
Post Script - replied to your question to me before reading the second page of responses. Perhaps it would help us to define exactly what you do now? Are you employed by the production company and if so in what capacity.
I have been to many demo events, sat in on evaluations etc. but I have never been "given the stick" to put a tune of the system nor have the opportunity to rig and/or stack the gear.
Maybe your definition of "green horn" and ourselves is different, or perhaps you are very humble and have much experience. You could also be living out a fantasy vicariously through the forum (it's happened before!).
In any way, questions are the only way for us to get to know each other.
Hi Scott,
Thanks for giving me ideas to rephrase the questions. Honestly I am bad in putting my thoughts to words....
Definitely not misunderstanding anything now as all is clear now..I am newly employed by a production company as a.....hmmmm....logistic guy...I think haha...I am starting work tomorrow so yes...
Moving right along.. green horn as in wet behind the ears...some one new and in experience...to be serving in church for long time does not mean I have proper sound knowledge. Also server and professional is different..so to professionals...I am a newbie as most would call it. But does anyone knows of people who enter production company at 30 years old and still a newbie? Mostly of my seniors are like 28-30 but have almost 10 years (or more experience)
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If I won the lottery I'd start a sound company so I could do things my way, but I wouldn't be counting on it making any money.
Mac
If I wanted to me moderately rich, I would start out really rich and open a sound company ;D
I have made a 35 year career in the audio industry and the last thing I would do is start a sound company.
Seems to me there is money to be made in pipe and drape and soft goods though... :)
Is a 'line array" the best solution to the problem?
At $100,000 there are other options for fantastic sounding speaker systems.
It has come to my attention that it's rare that you can actually charge the right money for premium sound systems these days.
With the bottom line being the driver, a more modestly priced system might be a better business solution.
Seems like the average client can't hear, or cares not to hear, the difference. (sigh)
I would love to have all Neve pre amps and the finest sounding, hand made unobtainium equipment and while it would be great for me, who's gonna pay for it?