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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Susan Celia on September 28, 2013, 02:34:33 PM
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Hey guys,
Looking to upgrade tops in a small club in Boston.
We have a smaller sized room. Approx 50' x 20'. All dance space with a stage in the back.
We've currently have 4 QSC K10's which aren't doing the job. They've been installed before I got there about 4 years ago. I've had to replace 2 and one just developed a cabinet rattle last week. I had a sit down with the owner and we decided to upgrade. Ditch the powered for passive.
4 in each corner that are powerful enough to fill the room up with nice clear sound.
We also have 2 Earthquakes being powered by a Crown 4002 amp.
We have another QSC amp, 2450 sitting in the rack not doing anything so ideally I'd like to hook that up to 1 or 2 of the new tops. I realize it's not very powerful so if it can't be used then it can't be used.
We have a sound guy coming in to install it all but I'd really like to research this on my own to make sure we are getting the best we can get for the space sound wise.
Of course price range is always an issue. So with that in mind, I narrowed it down to the Yorkville NX600's.
If anyone would like to chime in on their opinions, approvals, disapprovals, and suggestions it would be VERY helpful for me.
Thanks!!
Susan
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What do you mean by "4 in each corner"? Do you mean one in each of the four corners, two in each of two corners or 16 total as implied by 4 in each corner?
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What do you mean by "4 in each corner"? Do you mean one in each of the four corners, two in each of two corners or 16 total as implied by 4 in each corner?
I'm sorry about that. I meant one in each corner. Total 4.
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I'm sorry about that. I meant one in each corner. Total 4.
So....
DJ's, live music or a bit of both? I'm assuming mostly DJ's given that speaker deployment.
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So....
DJ's, live music or a bit of both? I'm assuming mostly DJ's given that speaker deployment.
Mostly DJ's but we do have some shows on rare occasions.
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In that deployment configuration your speakers are fighting each other with the worst of it in the middle of the room. Try turning the rear two speakers off, and see if it gets any better. Make physics your friend.
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Of course price range is always an issue. So with that in mind, I narrowed it down to the Yorkville NX600's.
So how did you "narrow it down" to just one product. I assume that product meets the budget-but does it meet the needs of the job?
How was the "budget" determined? A number pulled from the air and then looking for products to fit it? Or was the performance determined and then looking for a product and a budget for that product?
Did you determine the SPL and freq response and coverage needs? If so-how was that done?
What if you could spend a little bit more and get a lot more speaker? Is that option open?
If you get something more powerful-you are less likely to have issues-than with products that are pushed to the limits.
I don't have any suggestions-just wanting to make sure you have properly thought this through.
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In that deployment configuration your speakers are fighting each other with the worst of it in the middle of the room. Try turning the rear two speakers off, and see if it gets any better. Make physics your friend.
That's where I was going with my questions about deployment. Find out whoever OK'd the "four corners" approach and hit them with something hard.
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That's where I was going with my questions about deployment. Find out whoever OK'd the "four corners" approach and hit them with something hard.
The way the room was initially set up was one speaker in each corner of the room and two smack dab in the center of the room facing but to but of each other. It was nothing but high end with a million dead spots. Lots of high flying frequencies making the music sound crappy. So I removed the two in the center after one had died on us. It sounded much better but still not powerful enough for the space.
I'm not an expert on sound installs but I have some knowledge. I've been a DJ for 20 years and now I'm running the dance room at this venue. I'm just looking for opinions to help me getting better informed.
As for the budget post... Every venue I've ever worked at with the exception of 2 always skimps and does things the cheap way. Yes it's extremely frustrating because we all know you get what you pay for. The owners of this place are similar to that but they have a lot of trust in me and my advice. There were only 2 ksubs in the room before I started and I managed to get them to get the earthquakes recently. What a difference that made!
With all that in mind... I need to come up with some sort of example to give them... bettering the sound and keeping it within their budget. So yes, the Yorkville's would be a good price range. I realize there probably needs to be 2 amps.. I called a shop and they told me the QSC 5050's would be good for that type of set up.
Anyway.. thanks for any advice you can offer. And please forgive me for my lack of smarts on installs. This is why I'm here.. to hopefully get some valuable info from the pros..
If having them in the corners is not the right way to place the speakers then what would be? The room is as rectangular as it can get.
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The room is as rectangular as it can get.
What are the dimensions? Length, width and (most importantly) height.
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No reason why the K10's shouldn't work in that room. Two per side may present a bit of an issue though, if I remember right they are 90* boxes, so there may be some phasing and such. I'd say as others suggested, one in each corner with the far speakers on a separate bus that can be disengaged for live shows.
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I'd say as others suggested, one in each corner with the far speakers on a separate bus that can be disengaged for live shows.
I don't see where anyone recommended keeping the "four corners" model. Quite the contrary. Three of us specifically said not to do it.
Let's see how much height there is to work with before making random, ill-informed guesses.
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I don't see where anyone recommended keeping the "four corners" model. Quite the contrary. Three of us specifically said not to do it.
Let's see how much height there is to work with before making random, ill-informed guesses.
The whole idea of the speakers facing in is to "surround the dancers" with sound.
Nice thought-except that they have no idea how sound actually travels/works etc and what you end up with is a whole "mush" of sound-that sounds different everyplace.
Every time I have heard that sort of setup-it is just nasty. A 2 source approach is much better.
If sound behaved like light-then the "surround" approach would work just fine.
And before anyone starts thinking about home theatre surround-that is a TOTALLY different situation. Because there are DIFFERENT sounds coming from the different speakers-and you don't have the cancellations you do when you have the same sound from different speakers arriving at different times-which causes the whole problem.
If you can provide the dancers with GOOD sound-that is FAR better than "surrounding them" with crappy sound.
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The way the room was initially set up was one speaker in each corner of the room and two smack dab in the center of the room facing but to but of each other. It was nothing but high end with a million dead spots. Lots of high flying frequencies making the music sound crappy. So I removed the two in the center after one had died on us. It sounded much better but still not powerful enough for the space.
A speaker in each corner is bad enough. Add those other two (which you hadn't mentioned before), and it couldn't help but sound bad. With all of those speakers fighting each other, the DJ cranks the volume trying to fight physics, and blows things up. Provide the dimensions that Dick is asking for, and then we can begin to provide some real advice. The club owner is lucky you joined the party.
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If having them in the corners is not the right way to place the speakers then what would be? The room is as rectangular as it can get.
If the room is really rectangular-then there is no way you are covering the space with on e speaker in each corner anyway.
I will ask again-what was the design/thought approach to deciding that the particular loudspeaker listed was right for the job?
In any "design" there HAS to be a target to shoot for. Without a target-how do you have any idea if you "hit" it? or even where to "shoot"?
The approach is this-Given a particular space (which we have no idea of), I need a specific SPL (of which we have no idea), and it should try (notice I said TRY) to fit within a particular budget (of which we have a little idea) but don't know where the speaker in question would be purchased from -so that target budget is vague at best.
Without some decent details-there is no way to get a USABLE answer.
Unless you are just wanting people to agree with you-but how can they agree (at least with a sense of accuracy) without any details.
It is like buying a car and you have decided on a particular model-yet we have no idea what sort of gas mileage you need-how much payload you need to carry-how many passengers you need to carry-how fast it needs to go and so forth.
The suitability for a particular purpose is completely unknown-because we don't the "purpose".
Sorry to be so blunt-that this is simply the way it is.
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What are the dimensions? Length, width and (most importantly) height.
approx 50 feet x 20 feet w/ 12 foot high ceilings. The four speakers are angled slightly downward.
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approx 50 feet x 20 feet w/ 12 foot high ceilings. The four speakers are angled slightly downward.
Where is the stage? Where do the DJ's work from? What sound level do you desire?
12' is a fair height. Taller is better.
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Where is the stage? Where do the DJ's work from? What sound level do you desire?
12' is a fair height. Taller is better.
As stated the room is rectangular in shape. The DJ booth is on one of the 20ft ends.. which looks straight out and down to the stage on the opposite end. To the left mid way on one of the 50ft walls there's a bar that covers almost 1/2 that wall. So keeping that in mind.. Bar staff needs to be able to hear drink orders well enough. 12 foot high ceilings..
As for budget we have about $4-$5G's to work with. There are also 2 CV Earthquakes on either end of the 20 ft walls. One next to the stage. One next to the DJ booth.
I can't thank you guys enough for the input and trying to help. And thanks for the compliment for me trying to make the room better. I'm trying to keep myself educated as best I can and you guys are helping out big time. So THANK YOU!
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That's where I was going with my questions about deployment. Find out whoever OK'd the "four corners" approach and hit them with something hard.
Mr. Rees,
In the late 70s, every Disco had that arrangement! It was usually a 15" woofer with 3 Piezo tweets in each corner, all pointing to the center of the dance floor. It sounded great after about 4 (or was it 5) of those cool, curvey, Michelobs.
The eye candy was awesome, all lined up like that.
Of course, one by one, the piezos gave way to dullness, and the woofers went click, click, quiet.
Shortly after that, we all started to actually listen to what was being cranked out, and started using 2-way tops with separate woofer cabs , using a crossover at about 100hz. Wow! what a difference, for the next 3-1/2 decades.
-Wigs
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approx 50 feet x 20 feet w/ 12 foot high ceilings. The four speakers are angled slightly downward.
Just my opinion, but it doesn't seem to me you are gaining much by the NX600 approach.
A single 2ch amp wired to 8 ohm speakers in 4 corners.
The speakers are about 500 'real' watts (or 1000W Yorkvilles mystical program power)
If you put the QSC2450 that's 750W per ch or about 375 per speaker (minus cable losses).
Given that DJs seem to have thrashed the K rig, my best guess is this will be driven into hard clipping in short order.
Hopefully the 100hz high pass filter were engaged on the k-10's. Also hopefully there is a active crossover for the amp that feeds the earthquakes.
I would suggest moving to the QSC KQ153 for this application.
Should you wish to sell one or more working K-10's keep me in mind. I could use at least one more.
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I've never done an install but in your shoes I would come here asking if this would work...
First order 2 or 4 new K10 depending on whether it is practical to move 2 of them between DJ vs live act shows.
When these arrive, send out the existing K10s for reburbishing. If the original box and packing is unavailable, you'll have fresh new boxes.
Install 2 K10 in the middle long wall of the room on wall mounts or flown in a way that they can be turned to face away from the stage/booth being used. Of course, hire a qualified rigger to do any flying.
If you bought 4 new speakers, install them at either end but not in corners. Position them like you would for a 20 x 20 room facing the far wall straight on. In other words, a few feet from either wall.
Now, when the DJ is performing, turn off the speakers by the stage and vice versa (or if you opted for four speakers, just move them to the side where the performance is happening.
Sell the rmx2450 since it isn't being used.
One more thing. The speakers in the middle of the room should be on a delay of roughly 25/1140 of a second if I remember the constant right assuming 50 feet total and they are placed exactly half way between the speakers at either end.
Sent from my SPH-M930 using Tapatalk 2
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Well, i must say i have heard a few extremely good sounding 4 corners setup clubs. But the equipment was miles ahead of what is discussing here.
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Hey guys,
Looking to upgrade tops in a small club in Boston.
We have a smaller sized room. Approx 50' x 20'. All dance space with a stage in the back.
We've currently have 4 QSC K10's which aren't doing the job. They've been installed before I got there about 4 years ago. I've had to replace 2 and one just developed a cabinet rattle last week. I had a sit down with the owner and we decided to upgrade. Ditch the powered for passive.
4 in each corner that are powerful enough to fill the room up with nice clear sound.
We also have 2 Earthquakes being powered by a Crown 4002 amp.
We have another QSC amp, 2450 sitting in the rack not doing anything so ideally I'd like to hook that up to 1 or 2 of the new tops. I realize it's not very powerful so if it can't be used then it can't be used.
We have a sound guy coming in to install it all but I'd really like to research this on my own to make sure we are getting the best we can get for the space sound wise.
Of course price range is always an issue. So with that in mind, I narrowed it down to the Yorkville NX600's.
If anyone would like to chime in on their opinions, approvals, disapprovals, and suggestions it would be VERY helpful for me.
Thanks!!
Susan
I hope you were high passing the K10's. A passive setup that can match the fidelity/processing of a active box is not cheap. I would look at the EV ZX5 for something a bit punchier than the K10's with the budget you have.
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I hope you were high passing the K10's. A passive setup that can match the fidelity/processing of a active box is not cheap. I would look at the EV ZX5 for something a bit punchier than the K10's with the budget you have.
Before we start spitting out choices for new equipment, let's consider a deployment strategy that would be benficial in this space. Then we can start to look at which equipment might fit within those constraints (coverage, output, budget, etc.). I'm busy today, but perhaps someone else can begin to model this (considering the location of the dance floor, stage, and most importantly the bar) to determine optimal locations for the mains and the subs to provide acceptable coverage in the space at acceptable levels without blasting the bar (it's all pointless if people can't hear drink orders). Then we can look at which speakers might meet these needs. Until then, it's all an uninformed guess. It may very well be that the existing K10s and subs might do the trick if deployed properly. Now, I'm off for some grandbaby time and a gig.
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Before we start spitting out choices for new equipment, let's consider a deployment strategy that would be benficial in this space. Then we can start to look at which equipment might fit within those constraints (coverage, output, budget, etc.).
Exactly.
This situation is typical of the compromise between the desire to "rock the crowd" by providing visceral sound and the practical consideration of being able to do business at the bar.
The bartenders/servers really shouldn't be subjected to near deafening sound levels, even for part of their shift...much less 4-8 hours.
One suggestion was a two-system approach with a DJ system on one end and a live sound system on the stage end. This is verging on a zoned system which might in the end be the best of both worlds although the implementation will be more complex and likely cost more than the anticipated upgrade.
And then there's the "DJ destruction factor" to be considered. The damage to the current equipment is likely traceable to DJ overdrive syndrome.
So it gets fairly complex and like usual is not subject to a solution of "the right speakers".
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I took a whole mess of pictures of the space last night.
This should answer any other questions about the room and it's set up.
http://s220.photobucket.com/user/scelia/media/20130929_022910.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3
http://s220.photobucket.com/user/scelia/media/20130929_022856.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4
http://s220.photobucket.com/user/scelia/media/20130929_022730-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=8
http://s220.photobucket.com/user/scelia/media/20130929_022749.jpg.html?sort=3&o=7
http://s220.photobucket.com/user/scelia/media/20130929_022818.jpg.html?sort=3&o=6
http://s220.photobucket.com/user/scelia/media/20130929_022841.jpg.html?sort=3&o=5
http://s220.photobucket.com/user/scelia/media/20130929_022930.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2
http://s220.photobucket.com/user/scelia/media/20130929_022953.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
http://s220.photobucket.com/user/scelia/media/20130929_023010.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
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I took a whole mess of pictures of the space last night.
Bose sticks with a Dominator?
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Susan, based on this picture http://s220.photobucket.com/user/scelia/media/20130929_022730-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=8 it appears some of the speakers are hung using chains attached to the speaker handles.
In general, speaker handles are not sturdy enough (rated) to be used to hang the speakers. This is an unsafe practice with potentially lethal consequences (i.e. someone might die when the speaker falls).
If these speakers are really hanging by chains from their handles, you should inform the club owner of the potential and likely safety problem and ask them to have a qualified engineer / rigger evaluate the setup.
This appears to be an accident, and a negligence lawsuit, waiting to happen.
If the owner doesn't take immediate action, personally I'd walk away from the club.
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Susan, based on this picture http://s220.photobucket.com/user/scelia/media/20130929_022730-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=8 it appears some of the speakers are hung using chains attached to the speaker handles.
In general, speaker handles are not sturdy enough (rated) to be used to hang the speakers. This is an unsafe practice with potentially lethal consequences (i.e. someone might die when the speaker falls).
If these speakers are really hanging by chains from their handles, you should inform the club owner of the potential and likely safety problem and ask them to have a qualified engineer / rigger evaluate the setup.
This appears to be an accident, and a negligence lawsuit, waiting to happen.
If the owner doesn't take immediate action, personally I'd walk away from the club.
They are not being hung at the handles... there are hung by attached metal loops that QSC sells to be hung like this.
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They are not being hung at the handles... there are hung by attached metal loops that QSC sells to be hung like this.
I apologize.. after looking at the picture again you are talking about the Yamaha's. Those are going to be taken down.
Thanks for the heads up.
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I apologize.. after looking at the picture again you are talking about the Yamaha's. Those are going to be taken down.
Thanks for the heads up.
The K-10's need to be tilted down more ... about 45 degrees of tilt would be appropriate.
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approx 50 feet x 20 feet w/ 12 foot high ceilings. The four speakers are angled slightly downward.
As stated the room is rectangular in shape. The DJ booth is on one of the 20ft ends.. which looks straight out and down to the stage on the opposite end. To the left mid way on one of the 50ft walls there's a bar that covers almost 1/2 that wall. So keeping that in mind.. Bar staff needs to be able to hear drink orders well enough. 12 foot high ceilings..
As for budget we have about $4-$5G's to work with. There are also 2 CV Earthquakes on either end of the 20 ft walls. One next to the stage. One next to the DJ booth.
Is the same speaker system supposed to support the stage on one end and and the DJ booth on the other or do those two uses employ two separate systems? Do all four speakers receive the same signal or are they two 'stereo' pairs? Similar with the subs, do they both get the same signal? How do you crossover between the mains? Do you have any other system processing?
You mentioned having a 'sound guy' coming in to do the install. What is their background and experience? Should you maybe be involving them more in the system design and equipment selection? And are they or you going to be responsible for the system setup, testing, tuning, documentation, etc.?
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]Is the same speaker system supposed to support the stage on one end and and the DJ booth on the other or do those two uses employ two separate systems? Do all four speakers receive the same signal or are they two 'stereo' pairs? Similar with the subs, do they both get the same signal? How do you crossover between the mains? Do you have any other system processing?
You mentioned having a 'sound guy' coming in to do the install. What is their background and experience? Should you maybe be involving them more in the system design and equipment selection? And are they or you going to be responsible for the system setup, testing, tuning, documentation, etc.?
The speakers facing the stage will be taken down and replaced with 2 QSCk10's that we will be removing from the main system with the upgrade. The stage speakers are separate to the main system and work through Utility Out on the Mackie board.
As for the four speaker connections... The two near the stage are daisy chained together. And the two next to the booth are also daisy chained together. If you look at the crossover/compressor picture I posted you'll see the settings for them.
In one of my posts I had several pictures of the room and our amp rack with descriptions.
The main reason for my original feedback suggestions was for what types of speakers would be best for that room/size/etc. Just trying to get others opinions so I'm well informed on making the best decision for us.
I'm a bit old school and prefer to have passive over powered but after speaking with a few people I'm realizing cost wise we may have to go the powered route again.
I'm open to it, I just want to make sure it's the best decision!
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The speakers facing the stage will be taken down and replaced with 2 QSCk10's that we will be removing from the main system with the upgrade. The stage speakers are separate to the main system and work through Utility Out on the Mackie board.
As for the four speaker connections... The two near the stage are daisy chained together. And the two next to the booth are also daisy chained together. If you look at the crossover/compressor picture I posted you'll see the settings for them.
But do you use only only the two speakers and sub by stage for the stage and the other two speakers anbd sub by the DJ for the DJ or do you use both sets of speakers, and both subs, for either use? They flown speakers seem to have been installed as left/right pairs but are being run mono, so probably some resulting combfiltering, but using both pairs and/or both subs could result in some interesting effects where the coverage of the speakers cross one another.
In one of my posts I had several pictures of the room and our amp rack with descriptions.
I looked at those and on thing I noted is that unless it is under the security cover I did not see any equalization beyond what is on the mixer. If you don't have it then better EQ for the mains and monitors might be something to consider as part of any upgrades.
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- This may get torn to shreds by others here but this is my opinion
I have been using a mobile k10, kw122, kw153, ksub, kw181 setups for a while now, both for band setups and for dj setups. I am not aware of the amount of patrons you have in that space. To me it seems you already have enough rig for that room. In my opinion if the gain structure was set correctly you should have enough.
the DJ mixer running in to the mackie mixer. It should really only be set at a master volume of around 2 or 3 and not 8 -10(max). Unlike what most dj’s would think/do. If the Dj's can not comply with that, I would use the pad on the Mackie mixer and another inline pad so you can get a decent (lower) level going into the mackie mixer, instead of a super hot clipping signal. But ideally it would be better to have the dj mixer master set to a low setting. Having a nice Unity signal going into the Mackie channel fader would be my start.
I would couple the 2 earthquake subs near the band stage. feed them a signal of 100 hz to 35 hz ( maybe even bump that up to as high as 40 hz depending on the djs).
I would then try and angle the k10's near the band stage pointing down a little more. Make sure they are on the k10 setting is "ext Sub" and have the gain around 12 - 1 o’clock . this could be raised as long as its below clipping.
I would also have the front led light setting to show Clipping light.
I would then Use the other 2 k10's from the dj area (with the same setting as your mains) pole mounted to the Ksubs as the monitor rig for the dj. Strike them and use them as monitor for the band when needed. A good monitor rig May help keep the dj in the correct levels instead of constantly pushing it higher and higher.
If you feel the 2 hanging K10's are not enough sound. I would hang the other 2 K10s in front of the band stage horizontally (this way “ –“ and Not this way “ | “ ) Like a monitor / fold back position near the center of the band stage
You have a lot of hard surfaces in that space. I would also try and get some acoustical treatment on the walls and in the corners of the room. The floor would be nice as well but I don’t see that happening on a dance floor that needs to be cleaned.
I would also get a eq for the system. Or even better a drive rack 260 with brick wall limiter.
Another alternative to your current speaker setup would be to have the subs on each side of the band stage and a kw153 on top of each sub. use the k10's as monitor duty where needed.