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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Travis Dean TenKley on August 06, 2017, 06:49:33 PM

Title: Large install, small budget
Post by: Travis Dean TenKley on August 06, 2017, 06:49:33 PM
Working on helping a new company with a speaker setup and a very small budget.  Not looking for information on that part.
1. Will there be any delay when connecting powered speakers together via XLR?  If so, how much?
Probably close to 100'-150' in between speakers.

2. The ceiling is 50' high, with carpet and arcade games all over the room.  Is it better to have the speakers facing straight down or in the corners?  There will be only four in the room.  The room is guesstimate, 300'(W) x 200'(L) x 50'(H).  Probably larger just haven't seen the room yet.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Cailen Waddell on August 06, 2017, 07:08:07 PM
1. No
2 it depends. 
3. Your questions about 1 and 2 make me worried about your ability to help with suspending a powered speaker over people.  Are you qualified to rig and do you or your employer have the proper liability insurance?


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Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Don T. Williams on August 06, 2017, 07:22:03 PM
+1 for Cailen's comments.  So the room is larger than a football field and has 50' ceilings.  I'll bet the acoustics are such that the sound will be unintelligible as proposed!  They'll get what they deserve!
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Travis Dean TenKley on August 06, 2017, 07:41:57 PM
1. No
2 it depends. 
3. Your questions about 1 and 2 make me worried about your ability to help with suspending a powered speaker over people.  Are you qualified to rig and do you or your employer have the proper liability insurance?


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A football field is 360 feet so no, but it was an old marina shop so it is very large.
Just an educated answer to my question would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Cailen Waddell on August 06, 2017, 07:47:14 PM
A football field is 360 feet so no, but it was an old marina shop so it is very large.
Just an educated answer to my question would be greatly appreciated.

Seriously that's not how it works here...   if you say you want to do something, most of the people who give educated answers will refrain until we are sure you will do it safely.  If I recommended a speaker position and you did it, rigged it unsafely, and it fell, a quick internet search would turn up my advice - I don't need that liability. 

While your working on the safe rigging question,  the it depends really has more to do with, what are your goals?  Arcade games are pretty loud, so are you trying to get over that?  What will be coming through the speakers, music? Paging?  What are the make and model of the speakers? The dispersion patterns matter.  I said it depends because you seem to want a simple answer to a complex question with partial data.  Not trying to not be nice, but help us help you. 


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Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Cailen Waddell on August 06, 2017, 07:48:14 PM
Additional questions...  what are the walls made of?  Roof?  Any acoustic treatment?  All matters


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Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Travis Dean TenKley on August 06, 2017, 07:57:56 PM
Seriously that's not how it works here...   if you say you want to do something, most of the people who give educated answers will refrain until we are sure you will do it safely.  If I recommended a speaker position and you did it, rigged it unsafely, and it fell, a quick internet search would turn up my advice - I don't need that liability. 

While your working on the safe rigging question,  the it depends really has more to do with, what are your goals?  Arcade games are pretty loud, so are you trying to get over that?  What will be coming through the speakers, music? Paging?  What are the make and model of the speakers? The dispersion patterns matter.  I said it depends because you seem to want a simple answer to a complex question with partial data.  Not trying to not be nice, but help us help you. 


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Yes, i know the drill.  Everything is already in place.
Music and paging is the audio.
I used 2 qsc k12 when i played music for them and it was plenty loud.  Just dont know about the disperssion for them is adaquete for that high of a ceiling.
I have a budget for 6 of them or something db similar.
Carpet floor, iron and metal beams everywhere.  Domed shape ceiling.

Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Cailen Waddell on August 06, 2017, 08:14:35 PM
In the abstract - as I'm still not convinced anyone is a qualified rigger ...

I would consider a center cluster on one long wall or distribute the speakers along one long wall. 

I would not do 4 corners or straight down. 

The goal should be, in a noisy environment, to get the listener to hear just one audio source rather than multiples out of phase from each other.   I would lean towards the center cluster as there is better chance the low frequencies will be constructive rather than a crap shoot depending on where you stand.

If you have budget for 6 k12s, I would examine the market and ensure that is the best option for you.  There are some other powered speakers that are generally considered better performers in the same price range.  The turbo sound iq series and the Yamaha are the top of the list in my personal opinion. 

What is your source/control?


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Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Travis Dean TenKley on August 06, 2017, 08:25:25 PM
In the abstract - as I'm still not convinced anyone is a qualified rigger ...

I would consider a center cluster on one long wall or distribute the speakers along one long wall. 

I would not do 4 corners or straight down. 

The goal should be, in a noisy environment, to get the listener to hear just one audio source rather than multiples out of phase from each other.   I would lean towards the center cluster as there is better chance the low frequencies will be constructive rather than a crap shoot depending on where you stand.

If you have budget for 6 k12s, I would examine the market and ensure that is the best option for you.  There are some other powered speakers that are generally considered better performers in the same price range.  The turbo sound iq series and the Yamaha are the top of the list in my personal opinion. 

What is your source/control?


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The cluster is a great idea, it never crossed my mind even though ive used it in a danceclub install before.
Probably gonna just use a pv8 mixer i have sittin around and their laptop for music and they have the paging system there as well.  They Cant afford a dsp or anything.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Cailen Waddell on August 06, 2017, 08:26:35 PM
The cluster is a great idea, it never crossed my mind even though ive used it in a danceclub install before.
Probably gonna just use a pv8 mixer i have sittin around and their laptop for music and they have the paging system there as well.  They Cant afford a dsp or anything.

If there is budget for 6 speakers I might consider 3 or 4 and a used DSP.

Biamp audia flex's can be had pretty cheap on eBay and can be quite powerful....   food for thought.


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Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Travis Dean TenKley on August 06, 2017, 08:41:04 PM
If there is budget for 6 speakers I might consider 3 or 4 and a used DSP.

Biamp audia flex's can be had pretty cheap on eBay and can be quite powerful....   food for thought.


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Ok.  Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 06, 2017, 10:43:28 PM
If there is budget for 6 speakers I might consider 3 or 4 and a used DSP.

Biamp audia flex's can be had pretty cheap on eBay and can be quite powerful....   food for thought.


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The cost of flying them will be close to the cost of the speakers.  MI grade powered boxes 50' in the air is a poor choice.

I would look for narrow dispersion horns to handle the mids and highs, keep the sound off the walls.  This will get you the intelligibility.  Now some type of LF cluster (not subs think 400hz and down).  You want the amp on the ground where you can service them.  The amp(s) will also have the DSP built in.

The fact you don't know that electricity travels at the speed of light so propagation delay is not relevant in an analog signal (think phone lines) makes us all doubt you can manage this project to a successful conclusion.  The rigging is a big deal.  It may require fabrication and someone needs to sign off on the attachment points.

Check your ego and engage these folks trying to help.  It's the right thing to do for your client.



Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Travis Dean TenKley on August 06, 2017, 11:18:52 PM
The cost of flying them will be close to the cost of the speakers.  MI grade powered boxes 50' in the air is a poor choice.

I would look for narrow dispersion horns to handle the mids and highs, keep the sound off the walls.  This will get you the intelligibility.  Now some type of LF cluster (not subs think 400hz and down).  You want the amp on the ground where you can service them.  The amp(s) will also have the DSP built in.

The fact you don't know that electricity travels at the speed of light so propagation delay is not relevant in an analog signal (think phone lines) makes us all doubt you can manage this project to a successful conclusion.  The rigging is a big deal.  It may require fabrication and someone needs to sign off on the attachment points.

Check your ego and engage these folks trying to help.  It's the right thing to do for your client.

I respecfully disagree with you 100%.  I have contacted qsc before on flying and hanging qsc k and kla series speakers.  I have purchased all brackets and hardware from them and talked to their tech aboit it and there is no issue with them.
Secondly, i am not installing them just getting the information to the owners and they will do with it what they wish.  I have contracts in place for liability issues.
Your idea about mid and highs is what i was thinking and adding subs for them at a later date when they have more money.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 07, 2017, 02:33:43 AM
I respecfully disagree with you 100%.  I have contacted qsc before on flying and hanging qsc k and kla series speakers.  I have purchased all brackets and hardware from them and talked to their tech aboit it and there is no issue with them.
Secondly, i am not installing them just getting the information to the owners and they will do with it what they wish.  I have contracts in place for liability issues.
Your idea about mid and highs is what i was thinking and adding subs for them at a later date when they have more money.

QSC can tell you how to attach the speakers to the structure, they can't validate the design of the mount.  A cluster frame for the center is a custom affair.

If you are consulting to the owners you need to validate you design and installation standards.  Sure we are making assumptions about your knowledge based on your initial question and general presentation of your ideas. 

If you have already modeled the space and have structural design and haven't shared it with us, sorry.

Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 07, 2017, 08:04:49 AM
I would START with getting actual dimensions or close enough), and then doing a model for coverage.

It is ALSO a good idea to look at more than just coverage, but also the arrival times.

The late arrivals is what "kills" the sound of most systems.

It is the steady state signal vs impulse response.

There is A LOT more to it than playing some music with a speaker on the ground and "hoping" that the same thing will happen when you put a number of them in the air.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Craig Hauber on August 07, 2017, 11:15:05 AM
The cost of flying them will be close to the cost of the speakers.  MI grade powered boxes 50' in the air is a poor choice.

I would look for narrow dispersion horns to handle the mids and highs, keep the sound off the walls.  This will get you the intelligibility.  Now some type of LF cluster (not subs think 400hz and down).  You want the amp on the ground where you can service them.  The amp(s) will also have the DSP built in.

Its always frustrated me to see people installing "music store" portable PA products when there's catalogs full of gear intended for permanent installation that in the long-run gives you far better value per dollar.

And any self-powered box shouldn't be flown where you can't easily reach the amp module for service or cleaning.  (found a down-pointing mackie in a nightclub the other day with a 1" thick "pad" of thick dust-fluff on the back of it -and they wonder why it suddenly quit working?)
And of course you can no longer reach it safely with lift or even ladder because they built a bar below it sometime in the last 10 years!

Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 07, 2017, 12:43:28 PM
Its always frustrated me to see people installing "music store" portable PA products when there's catalogs full of gear intended for permanent installation that in the long-run gives you far better value per dollar.

And any self-powered box shouldn't be flown where you can't easily reach the amp module for service or cleaning.  (found a down-pointing mackie in a nightclub the other day with a 1" thick "pad" of thick dust-fluff on the back of it -and they wonder why it suddenly quit working?)
And of course you can no longer reach it safely with lift or even ladder because they built a bar below it sometime in the last 10 years!

Nail on the head, Craig.  As conceived, this is not a practical flyable system.  It's more "fly-by-night" than anything else and reeks of risk when arming the unwitting and fatally frugal business owner with a little knowledge...as in "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

Very irresponsible.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Don T. Williams on August 07, 2017, 03:41:02 PM
A football field is 360 feet so no, but it was an old marina shop so it is very large.
Just an educated answer to my question would be greatly appreciated.

My reply wasn't meant as a snide remark.  It was just my opinion from 40 years of experience.  The NFL lists the area of a football field as 57,600 sq. feet.  Your building is 60,000 sq. feet.  It IS bigger than a football field!
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 07, 2017, 04:44:36 PM
My reply wasn't meant as a snide remark.  It was just my opinion from 40 years of experience.  The NFL lists the area of a football field as 57,600 sq. feet.  Your building is 60,000 sq. feet.  It IS bigger than a football field!

I have now doubt the OP thinks we are a bunch of assholes.  There is no right way of handling the situation.  Someone comes in asking for advice, the only real advice is none of your ideas are valid and the defensiveness begins.

The worst part is there are 100's if not 1000's of crappy PA's installed by the maintenance guy in huge spaces all over the country.  They are unintelligible and mostly ignored. That's all people expect.  Nobody pays attention to the PA except us sound geeks so on the odd chance they visited a venue with a properly installed system they might not even pay attention.

It can't be wrong if everyone does it this way, right?

So we tilt and windmills trying to find the lone convert. 

It's not about the product.  Properly integrated marginal equipment works much better than poorly deployed consumer gear.  The plethora of capable, powered 12" BR boxes is not a panacea.  System design is the key.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Don T. Williams on August 07, 2017, 05:45:43 PM
I have now doubt the OP thinks we are a bunch of assholes.  There is no right way of handling the situation.  Someone comes in asking for advice, the only real advice is none of your ideas are valid and the defensiveness begins.

The worst part is there are 100's if not 1000's of crappy PA's installed by the maintenance guy in huge spaces all over the country.  They are unintelligible and mostly ignored. That's all people expect.  Nobody pays attention to the PA except us sound geeks so on the odd chance they visited a venue with a properly installed system they might not even pay attention.

So we tilt and windmills trying to find the lone convert. 

It's not about the product.  Properly integrated marginal equipment works much better than poorly deployed consumer gear.  The plethora of capable, powered 12" BR boxes is not a panacea.  System design is the key.


Scott you are correct, except it is in the 10's of thousands.  I've seen heavy speakers suspended over people using rope through plastic handles.  I just lost a church system sale because I refused to sell them a loudspeaker system (with factory flying parts) that they want to suspend on a wood laminated beam.  I ask for an engineer to signoff on the safety aspect.  They said that wasn't needed because they new it would support thousands of pounds.  I refused the sale without an engineering report.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Travis Dean TenKley on August 07, 2017, 07:45:55 PM
Scott you are correct, except it is in the 10's of thousands.  I've seen heavy speakers suspended over people using rope through plastic handles.  I just lost a church system sale because I refused to sell them a loudspeaker system (with factory flying parts) that they want to suspend on a wood laminated beam.  I ask for an engineer to signoff on the safety aspect.  They said that wasn't needed because they new it would support thousands of pounds.  I refused the sale without an engineering report.

I agree with all of your guys' comments.  I came here with not to get lectured, (i'm married i don't need more), but to get insight which i received.  I understand the liability, rules, laws, policies, etc... 
I'm just giving a friend some options for his business he spent 300,000 dollars on and as an afterthought, needs a better sounding sysytem for around $4000 on.  I know he should wait and hire a sound design company but he dosent have that time or money right now.

Thanks again.
Travis
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 07, 2017, 08:00:33 PM
I agree with all of your guys' comments.  I came here with not to get lectured, (i'm married i don't need more), but to get insight which i received.  I understand the liability, rules, laws, policies, etc... 
I'm just giving a friend some options for his business he spent 300,000 dollars on and as an afterthought, needs a better sounding sysytem for around $4000 on.  I know he should wait and hire a sound design company but he dosent have that time or money right now.

Thanks again.
Travis

Then your friend should just send the 3000 bucks to a charity and buy 4 $200 speakers.  Same result.  Smart people don't waste money like that or not properly budget for something that may turn out to be a life safety issue.

So what did you come here for?  Emotional validation of a bad idea?  An answer to your original question if audio signals are delayed on a wire?  That was answered too. 

300k to rehab is $5 a square foot, you can barely get the floors cleaned for that rate let alone install a proper fire suppression, lighting and other items needed to accommodate the public. 

Friends tell their friends the truth not let the waste their money.

Guess you got your lecture, sorry.  When you go to the barbershop you get a haircut don't you?

 
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Travis Dean TenKley on August 07, 2017, 08:12:59 PM
Then your friend should just send the 3000 bucks to a charity and buy 4 $200 speakers.  Same result.  Smart people don't waste money like that or not properly budget for something that may turn out to be a life safety issue.

So what did you come here for?  Emotional validation of a bad idea?  An answer to your original question if audio signals are delayed on a wire?  That was answered too. 

300k to rehab is $5 a square foot, you can barely get the floors cleaned for that rate let alone install a proper fire suppression, lighting and other items needed to accommodate the public. 

Friends tell their friends the truth not let the waste their money.

Guess you got your lecture, sorry.  When you go to the barbershop you get a haircut don't you?
I did get my questions answered which already said. 
As usual, the comments keep coming which is fine, but just get old after the 4th lecture.  The owner knows his risks as do i, he dosent want to wait.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 07, 2017, 08:25:28 PM
I did get my questions answered which already said. 
As usual, the comments keep coming which is fine, but just get old after the 4th lecture.  The owner knows his risks as do i, he dosent want to wait.


Let's reconsider for the short term:

Given that playback of recorded music requires a paid license and the proposed setup will not support that type of program, your friend might consider some form of ambient soundscape instead.  Something like arcade game "bee-boops", whizzes, bells and gongs controlling some light pulses.
Lighting is cheap, has no RT60 concerns and could be sound controlled.  You could even mic up some choice games.

Let that cover until the system can be properly expanded.

Edit:

I take PayPal...
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Travis Dean TenKley on August 07, 2017, 08:53:55 PM

Let's reconsider for the short term:

Given that playback of recorded music requires a paid license and the proposed setup will not support that type of program, your friend might consider some form of ambient soundscape instead.  Something like arcade game "bee-boops", whizzes, bells and gongs controlling some light pulses.
Lighting is cheap, has no RT60 concerns and could be sound controlled.  You could even mic up some choice games.

Let that cover until the system can be properly expanded.

Edit:

I take PayPal...

That is a good idea too, but he wants the speakers for their annoucements and dj's to plug into on fri and sat nights.  Oh yeah, did i mention the building is the size of a football field plus some.
I would love your opinion Dick on if 6 speakers of a budget of $4000 could surfice and mounted in corners, sides, straight down or cluster would wven matter?  No subs at this point.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 07, 2017, 09:00:23 PM
but he wants the speakers for their annoucements and dj's to plug into on fri and sat nights.
OK, things just changed.

What sort of "performance" do you expect for the "DJs".

Just something to make some noise?  Or an actual DJ performance?

BIG BIG difference.

Knowing what you are actually expecting goes a LONG way towards getting a decent result.

Reality is not what people often want to hear.  But they WILL experience at some point.

I would prepare your customer for the reality of spending a lot more money on a speaker system.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Travis Dean TenKley on August 07, 2017, 09:10:32 PM
OK, things just changed.

What sort of "performance" do you expect for the "DJs".

Just something to make some noise?  Or an actual DJ performance?

BIG BIG difference.

Knowing what you are actually expecting goes a LONG way towards getting a decent result.

Reality is not what people often want to hear.  But they WILL experience at some point.

I would prepare your customer for the reality of spending a lot more money on a speaker system.
Yeah.  All the information was posted in the first couple of posts from myself.  They just need louder than the arcade games which arent that loud.  I played there with my x 2 qsc k12 and they were plenty loud, thats why i picked 6 of those but was open to suggestions on other speakers and placement.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 07, 2017, 09:50:38 PM
That is a good idea too, but he wants the speakers for their annoucements and dj's to plug into on fri and sat nights.  Oh yeah, did i mention the building is the size of a football field plus some.
I would love your opinion Dick on if 6 speakers of a budget of $4000 could surfice and mounted in corners, sides, straight down or cluster would wven matter?  No subs at this point.

No, nothing so far makes any sense.  What's required is to sit down and define what's needed NOW, what's NEXT and the "ultimate setup".  You're probably looking at two systems mnimum: 

1.  Voice/anouncements over the entire area.  Likely a 70v distributed system.

2.  A DJ/music system covering a designated area clearly and providing some reverberative ambience in the rest of the space.  This is liable to include some acoustic design work to be built into the space.

Getting it done for $4000.00 ain't gonna happen.  Getting it done for $40,000 is a start.  Done right and finished out you're looking at over $100K at a minimum. 

Anything else is dreaming.
Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 07, 2017, 10:19:09 PM
Yeah.  All the information was posted in the first couple of posts from myself.  They just need louder than the arcade games which arent that loud.  I played there with my x 2 qsc k12 and they were plenty loud, thats why i picked 6 of those but was open to suggestions on other speakers and placement.

That makes no sense.  I know a bit about K, we have a warehouse full of it.  You might have had a hot spot to enjoy the music but no possible way you got on top of the games at even 100ft.  At 100ft KW's can barely do 100db SPL sending them compresse program.

Having multiple speakers overlap is the worst thing you can do for intelligibility.  With your plan you will have all the sources converging in what is probably the busiest area of the building.

Dave and Buster's doesn't do Dj's and I know exactly what they put in, and announcements are intelligible.   With a  building a 1/4 the size you have they spent 32 times what you are budgeting 12 years ago. 



Title: Large install, small budget
Post by: Brian_Henry on August 08, 2017, 12:15:47 AM
Yeah.  All the information was posted in the first couple of posts from myself.  They just need louder than the arcade games which arent that loud.  I played there with my x 2 qsc k12 and they were plenty loud, thats why i picked 6 of those but was open to suggestions on other speakers and placement.

I just got back from a similar type of place with my kids just today. I measured the sound level. It was a hair under 95 C/slow depending on where you stand. I can't imagine hearing music with any intelligibility from 4-6 K12s at 50'. Or from 1 of them which is the ideal situation.

The place really should have a hearing protection program per OSHA. (Edit: I'm not saying they don't, but I doubt it)


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Title: Re: Large install, small budget
Post by: Travis Dean TenKley on August 08, 2017, 05:50:13 AM
I just got back from a similar type of place with my kids just today. I measured the sound level. It was a hair under 95 C/slow depending on where you stand. I can't imagine hearing music with any intelligibility from 4-6 K12s at 50'. Or from 1 of them which is the ideal situation.

The place really should have a hearing protection program per OSHA. (Edit: I'm not saying they don't, but I doubt it)


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Ok, thanks for the information.