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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Richard Penrose on April 21, 2017, 06:05:05 PM
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I'm wondering if Yamaha/Nexo will update their DXR and DSR ranges now that EV, JBL, QSC, FBT and even Alto are updating and improving their ranges.
I own the DXR15's and I really like them. They are solid workhorses that sound excellent and have never let me down despite some pretty hard use!
I regularly get great comments about the sound of these. Also, I've had a few occasions where a couple of sound engineers made some mistakes and drove them well into limiting where the light was permanently on for about 30-40 seconds. Amazingly they have survived this on a few occasions and there was no damage at all! I wouldn't want to try this with a few brands!!
Anyway, I really hope Yamaha will update these ranges and raise the bar even higher within this price bracket. I'd love a lighter version of the DSR115's or mkII DXR's with higher audio quality. I just hope that they don't put those digital screens with push button menu controls on them. I love having the various switches on the back of the DXR's.
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But they are already SOOOOOOO good !
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How about someone figures out how to make a speaker with no switches I have to check every time that isn't named Meyer.
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Are the Yamaha legitimately better than stuff like the JBL SRX800? I'm curious now
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Are the Yamaha legitimately better than stuff like the JBL SRX800? I'm curious now.
Not quite but IMO the DXR and DSR lines are still the class leaders in 1" exit powered PA speakers so they don't really need an update yet.
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Are the Yamaha legitimately better than stuff like the JBL SRX800? I'm curious now
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Nope, the SRX800P are more "robust sounding" / can handle bigger jobs. JBL positioned the SRX800P as high end MI with bits of the Touring when they sprinkle in info of "V5 tunings that match VTX" whereas Yamaha is more in the middle. The DSR is a really good speaker and beats the regular contenders ala QSC K/KW, JBL PRX and EV but Yamaha didn't make a good "bass reflex" style sub to complement nor a 3-way cab. The DSR118W was underpowered and the DXS18 is a bandpass design like the QSC K-Sub.
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I've had a few occasions where a couple of sound engineers made some mistakes and drove them well into limiting where the light was permanently on for about 30-40 seconds. Amazingly they have survived this on a few occasions and there was no damage at all! I wouldn't want to try this with a few brands!!
Er, that's what the limiter's for. With any decent active speaker, you can drive them with the limiter light on all day with no ill effects, as the limiter's doing its job.
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Er, that's what the limiter's for. With any decent active speaker, you can drive them with the limiter light on all day with no ill effects, as the limiter's doing its job.
Alec has a point here...
I ran CS400s from 1978 to 1995. They kept me from "gettin' out of hand", and protected my drivers. I moved on to the PV2600, and ultimately a pair of CS3000s. Same thing. I didn't lose a driver in 30 years of gigging (due to abuse), because the "protection" worked. Believe me; I tested it! After one moderately expensive false start, I have committed to the "speaker-with-an-amp-built-in" world for my smaller system. What did I learn? If it doesn't sound good, go back to way it did; but, keep trying. Be patient. Audio just keeps getting better.
-Dennis
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Not quite but IMO the DXR and DSR lines are still the class leaders in 1" exit powered PA speakers so they don't really need an update yet.
If it ain't broke - don't fix it. It seems silly to me to spend all that money on development if you are already the best in your class/budget. Now if one of the contenders brings out something to beat the DXR or especially the DSR, then it might be time to do the work but till then, why?
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Nope, the SRX800P are more "robust sounding" / can handle bigger jobs....
I agree - but only just! :)
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I have heard many speakers at many different price ranges.
My favorite was the MEYER UPA 1P's..... but my second favorite is still the DSR112 (for tops over sub duty).
I have never had the opportunity to A/B these speakers, but my guess is that I wouldn't hear $3500 difference ;)
The new SRX812p is a really nice sounding speaker. I am not so sure that I would put it in a different class than the DSR112 though.
For the money, and for the bass output, the DXR15 is still unbeatable IMO. I am sure that the DSR's will outrun it by a noticeable amount, but the fact is that the DSR's are more than what most bar bands need. A single DSR can hang with a pair of subs per side. Most bar bands don't bring more than 2 subs to a bar gig (neither do I in most cases).
I think that we have reached the point of diminishing returns with powered speakers. They may well improve some over the next 10 years, but I doubt they will improve so much as to make speakers like the SRX 800's and DSR's sound "bad".
IMO, Yamaha (NEXO really) simply jumped ahead of the competition out the gate. The DSR had better drivers, and better DSP than any of the competition at its release.
The DXR line really found the sweet spot in price and performance.
It really is a shame they didn't make a sub worthy of competing with the JBL PRX XLF. Despite the bandpass design, I hear good things about the new DXS18. I really need to test drive a pair ;)
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I have to agree that Yamaha have done a fantastic job with their DXR & DSR ranges. I went with the DXR's because I wanted something full range that could handle bass and kick. The DXR does this brilliantly. I had an event in a large marquee last weekend where the music didn't need to be loud but the bass amp was a tiny practice amp and the drummer had a very small kit (18" kick) and played quietly. Putting the bass and kick drum through the DXR15's made a huge difference and sounded great. I love being able to do a gig like this with just two FOH speakers
The new update to the QSC K.2 range doesn't look that impressive. It would appear they've just changed the DSP and maybe a little more power from the amp!?
Er, that's what the limiter's for. With any decent active speaker, you can drive them with the limiter light on all day with no ill effects, as the limiter's doing its job.
Yes true but that's not always the case! Ive known people to have drivers fail on some speakers when driven into the limit.
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I have heard many speakers at many different price ranges.
My favorite was the MEYER UPA 1P's..... but my second favorite is still the DSR112 (for tops over sub duty).
I have never had the opportunity to A/B these speakers, but my guess is that I wouldn't hear $3500 difference ;)
I have to chuckle at this a bit, and point out that while most manufacturers roll over product every couple of years (isn't that what this thread is about anyway?), how well-engineered the UPA is to stand the test of time. Effectively it's a 35 year old speaker design, or at least 20 years old if you are only counting the powered version.
I agree that the DSR112 is a great speaker, and in terms of how MI-grade powered speakers have developed in the last decade, Yamaha has done a fantastic job. On-board FIR filters? Unheard of 10, or even really 5 years ago. So comparing a 'dinosaur' like the UPA mostly favorably to a new speaker design with 21st century tech really says something.
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My favorite was the MEYER UPA 1P's..... but my second favorite is still the DSR112 (for tops over sub duty).
Scott, I have the same experience. I've had a pair of UPA-1P's for over 15 years, and they still sound better to me than any of the self-powered boxes I've heard at MI stores. I also like the DSR112 over the usual JBL, EV, QSC, etc contenders.
My local store will let me borrow a DSR112....I keep meaning to do that and compare to the UPA....maybe I haven't done it yet, cause I'm afraid of hearing far less than a $3500 difference, lol
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This starts to sound to me like "will my 2017 Chevy Cruze compete with a 1984 Nascar Malibu".
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In response to the initial question, I might expect an upgrade to the DSR line as it was introduced in 2012, prior to the DXR series, nearing the end of the 7 year warranty period of the first to market.
Best obvious guesses for a MKII upgrade would be, drivers (cast frame, 3" compression), increased wattage, cooling fan, ply construction, networkable (Audionate).
I do find it rather fascinating the amount of discussion and a general consensus about the DSR112 solely, and not of the other family 115 & 215, from my count of over thirty owner/users on this board alone, myself included.
An a/b comparison of the venerable UPA1P and DSR112 is intriguing.
Meanwhile, I still pine for a pair of Mackie HD1531`s at the right buy-in price for the man cave.
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This starts to sound to me like "will my 2017 Chevy Cruze compete with a 1984 Nascar Malibu".
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ha ha... I was thinking something similar myself Jay.
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This starts to sound to me like "will my 2017 Chevy Cruze compete with a 1984 Nascar Malibu".
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Funny ... !
maybe there's a parallel truth in the old vs new car comparison ;D ...I mean, some models, some years, were super, now collectors items...some models/years (perhaps most) were turds... every manufacturer has made both...
Tis a shame the market rather constantly wants to bet on a new unknown with a good probability of turd-iness, to a known old gem.... haha
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I have to chuckle at this a bit, and point out that while most manufacturers roll over product every couple of years (isn't that what this thread is about anyway?), how well-engineered the UPA is to stand the test of time. Effectively it's a 35 year old speaker design, or at least 20 years old if you are only counting the powered version.
I agree that the DSR112 is a great speaker, and in terms of how MI-grade powered speakers have developed in the last decade, Yamaha has done a fantastic job. On-board FIR filters? Unheard of 10, or even really 5 years ago. So comparing a 'dinosaur' like the UPA mostly favorably to a new speaker design with 21st century tech really says something.
Brian,
I first heard the UPA's about 6 years ago at a Train concert on the beach in Cancun at an exclusive resort with a crowd of <300 people. My wife's favorite part of the trip was having a conversation with Pat Monahan (btw, he is so tiny that a stiff breeze would blow him away, but man can he sing ;) ). My favorite part was the incredible sound of the Meyer system that was put up for the gig (2 UPA-2P's per side, center and sub). Just .... wow. Nicely done.
I ran back to our room and looked up the speakers (which I hadn't heard of until then) and was totally disheartened at the price such a system costs :( . Perhaps some day I will win the lottery!
Since then, I now recognize them when I see them and have always been impressed with the sound at any venue that I find them at.
Of course, there is a bit of slant to this when you think about it.
What kind of venue/event would have a Meyer rig to begin with? Really only those that were well funded and backed by a professional sound crew.
How much of that great sound is the talent of the sound crew vs the quality of the speaker system?
I don't really know the answer. I also have yet to hear a band with an SRX7XX, 8XXp, DSR112, etc that sounded "bad". Again, I think that the type of people that pick such systems may be more discerning.
I have A/B'd my DSR112/PRX618XLF rig to many of my friends rigs around the local area. It is impressive. I may slightly prefer the sound of a friends KW153 over KW118 rig, but I certainly don't envy his load out ;)
As an aside, I was stationed on a nuclear submarine for some time in my youth. I did a tourist run through an old WWII sub in San Francisco a few years ago and was amazed at how much of the submarine technology had stayed exactly the same. Some designs just work well and there is little need to change them I guess.
We have all been privileged to see a revolution in powered speaker technology as well as digital mixer technology. It wasn't that these things didn't exist, they were simply not so good at so low a price.
FWIW, I suspect the dinosaur would win the shoot out. I have never heard such a smooth horn as the UPA.
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In response to the initial question, I might expect an upgrade to the DSR line as it was introduced in 2012, prior to the DXR series, nearing the end of the 7 year warranty period of the first to market.
Best obvious guesses for a MKII upgrade would be, drivers (cast frame, 3" compression), increased wattage, cooling fan, ply construction, networkable (Audionate).
I do find it rather fascinating the amount of discussion and a general consensus about the DSR112 solely, and not of the other family 115 & 215, from my count of over thirty owner/users on this board alone, myself included.
Yes I have to say I'm pretty intrigued by the DSR series based on the sheer amount of positive reviews they get! Ideally I'd love a lighter version of the DSR115's! If the DSR112's had a little more depth of bass I would have gone for those a will back! If I had the budget I'd quite fancy adding another pair of QSC KW181's and get a pair of the DSR112's. That way I could have a single DSR112 over a pair of KW181's per side but this is more of a pipe dream!
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Yes I have to say I'm pretty intrigued by the DSR series based on the sheer amount of positive reviews they get! Ideally I'd love a lighter version of the DSR115's! If the DSR112's had a little more depth of bass I would have gone for those a will back! If I had the budget I'd quite fancy adding another pair of QSC KW181's and get a pair of the DSR112's. That way I could have a single DSR112 over a pair of KW181's per side but this is more of a pipe dream!
If it matters to anybody I almost pulled the trigger on a pair of DSR 112's to run over 181's.
Why I didn't is interesting. In 90% of the cases it would have delivered what the KW153's do and been much easier on the logistics. However we charge a premium for the 153's. The size of the cabinets clearly communicates that premium.
Other than our ridiculous KF850 clone system we use on lawn gigs (bought out of an inventory liquidation from the famous Loud and Clear sound company in Cinci) we run our whole business on KW's two sizes big and small.
Couple of times a year we rent DB Tech T4's and we still use the 181's with them !
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Again in response to the OP, I would suggest that the relatively recent addition of the DXS18 could be considered an upgrade to the D-Series.
I find this model to be more `musical ' in comparison to the KW181, with the KW seemingly having become a standard of reference for single 18" powered subs for some time now. Of course, YMMV.
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If it matters to anybody I almost pulled the trigger on a pair of DSR 112's to run over 181's.
Why I didn't is interesting. In 90% of the cases it would have delivered what the KW153's do and been much easier on the logistics.
That is interesting to read. Looks like the DSR112's over a pair of KW181's may be a good route to upgrade my system whilst keeping the weight down. I also like the idea of the system being modular where I could leave 1 pair of KW181's at home for smaller gigs!
One annoying niggle I have with the DSR112's is they put the handle on top of the cabinet!!? Maybe if these get updated one day they could put the handle on the side.
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Again in response to the OP, I would suggest that the relatively recent addition of the DXS18 could be considered an upgrade to the D-Series.
I find this model to be more `musical ' in comparison to the KW181, with the KW seemingly having become a standard of reference for single 18" powered subs for some time now. Of course, YMMV.
I've heard good things about this sub and from what I've been told, it goes louder than the DSS118W. Regarding the comparison to the KW181 I've heard mixed opinions on this. Also, the DXS18 is much heavier than the KW181's and not manageable for me by myself!
The QSC KW181's offer great balance between size, weight and price. Would be interesting to see if QSC release a mkII version though! I'd love a mkII version that sounds even better with deeper bass extension, higher output and even lower weight but this is maybe a little unrealistic with the price bracket.
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I've heard good things about this sub and from what I've been told, it goes louder than the DSS118W. Regarding the comparison to the KW181 I've heard mixed opinions on this. Also, the DXS18 is much heavier than the KW181's and not manageable for me by myself!
The QSC KW181's offer great balance between size, weight and price. Would be interesting to see if QSC release a mkII version though! I'd love a mkII version that sounds even better with deeper bass extension, higher output and even lower weight but this is maybe a little unrealistic with the price bracket.
It is the weight of the DXS18 that has kept me from simply selling my PRX XLF's and getting a matched pair which might even increase the total output of the system.
At the end of the day, very few of my indoor venues demand the full output of my XLF's. Any outdoor gig I would be either getting more speakers (more XLF's) or having the system supplied (small line array) depending on the venue. Carrying around that extra weight would outweigh any occasional benefit in my case.
JBL did a fantastic job of getting the weight down. The original PRX612m's were feather light at only 36lbs. The XLF's are only 81lbs and can be lifted by a single large man in good shape, or are an easy lift for 2 people (even my wife can help me with these).
The DSR112's are not horridly heavy at 47lbs, but you feel that extra 11 lbs when carrying them (especially 2 at a time).
I hear the newest ART RCF 745 speakers are both light (42 lbs) and great sounding, albeit a bit higher in price than the 12's we have been mostly discussing ($1500). The 735 is only a couple of pounds heavier, but runs only $1K. Haven't heard anyone say anything about these yet though.
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How about someone figures out how to make a speaker with no switches I have to check every time that isn't named Meyer.
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This has been a real problem for me too! It seems every new MI powered speaker product adds extra unnecessary sockets, switches, knobs, buttons and screens - cluttering up even further the rear of these boxes, providing more opportunities for wondering hands and accidental knocks to make inappropriate adjustments or break something.
If just one company could design a product with simple input and thru sockets, plus a port to provide control via a phone app or tablet etc - I think they'd find a market, as long as they don't charge Meyer prices of course.
That issue aside, I don't see any need for new or additional models of powered speakers. If I was in the business of investing in this kind of equipment, I'd want products that are proven in terms of their build quality and performance.
For some reason the MI sector seems to attract interest in new products that no one has seen or heard yet. Then there are attempts to parse minute performance differences, as justification for what represent effectively sideways moves.
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In response to the initial question, I might expect an upgrade to the DSR line as it was introduced in 2012, prior to the DXR series, nearing the end of the 7 year warranty period of the first to market.
Best obvious guesses for a MKII upgrade would be, drivers (cast frame, 3" compression), increased wattage, cooling fan, ply construction, networkable (Audionate).
I do find it rather fascinating the amount of discussion and a general consensus about the DSR112 solely, and not of the other family 115 & 215, from my count of over thirty owner/users on this board alone, myself included.
An a/b comparison of the venerable UPA1P and DSR112 is intriguing.
Meanwhile, I still pine for a pair of Mackie HD1531`s at the right buy-in price for the man cave.
I have some 1531's that I put in my control l room as alternate monitors for tracking bands live. Sound great but too heavy to carry around.
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The DXS 18 ain't that bad to move as I came from the 618xlf, if you have to lift it then yes, but from a trailer it actually seems easier, and it won't move at all like the 618xlf when bumped, I think it's the way it's balanced. Output one sub beats the two 618xlf I used to have and it sounds great if not better, Yamaha/nexo engineering is there for sure. For tops I use the prx615m which I love and have done everything I have asked from them. Before I was lacking bass in the middle and back of room, with the yamahas design it's there. For moving them I put the prx615 on top of the sub in monitor position with handle facing the dolly and tilt back and its easy to move on the dolly. Once I get the caster kit I'll just lay the 615s on the the top and strap them to just roll out a sub and a top and since the Yamaha have no grill they won't get damaged. Last night had a event upstairs in hotel and it took me four trips in elevator total by myself to get the whole system up there with two truss, led wash lights and 4 moving heads. It was two trips for the the sub/top audio and two road cases with everything else with truss on top. Thanks Derek
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The DXS 18 ain't that bad to move as I came from the 618xlf, if you have to lift it then yes, but from a trailer it actually seems easier, and it won't move at all like the 618xlf when bumped, I think it's the way it's balanced. Output one sub beats the two 618xlf I used to have and it sounds great if not better, Yamaha/nexo engineering is there for sure. For tops I use the prx615m which I love and have done everything I have asked from them. Before I was lacking bass in the middle and back of room, with the yamahas design it's there. For moving them I put the prx615 on top of the sub in monitor position with handle facing the dolly and tilt back and its easy to move on the dolly. Once I get the caster kit I'll just lay the 615s on the the top and strap them to just roll out a sub and a top and since the Yamaha have no grill they won't get damaged. Last night had a event upstairs in hotel and it took me four trips in elevator total by myself to get the whole system up there with two truss, led wash lights and 4 moving heads. It was two trips for the the sub/top audio and two road cases with everything else with truss on top. Thanks Derek
Wow. 2 to 1 is impressive (PRX XLF to DXR18).
Still, 30 lbs is a substantial difference. My drummer has a set of Cerwin Vega CVA118's that weigh 121 lbs. It is a HUGE difference in the carry from the XLFs.
If the DXR18 is truely a 2 to 1 with the XLF, then I suspect it would hang perfect with a single DSR112 which seems very at home over a pair of XLF's at max output.
The XLF's always just sound "clean" to me. The CVA118's do shake the room more, but seem to put more mud into the mix.
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Wow. 2 to 1 is impressive (PRX XLF to DXR18).
Still, 30 lbs is a substantial difference. My drummer has a set of Cerwin Vega CVA118's that weigh 121 lbs. It is a HUGE difference in the carry from the XLFs.
If the DXR18 is truely a 2 to 1 with the XLF, then I suspect it would hang perfect with a single DSR112 which seems very at home over a pair of XLF's at max output.
The XLF's always just sound "clean" to me. The CVA118's do shake the room more, but seem to put more mud into the mix.
I've used both sub's recently, and while the DXS has great low extension and gets very loud, it did not come close to matching the output of (2) stacked PXR618's.
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I've used both sub's recently, and while the DXS has great low extension and gets very loud, it did not come close to matching the output of (2) stacked PXR618's.
That really shouldn't come as any surprise, as you've rightly observed.
My experience with various MI speakers, including subs, is that they generally perform in line with their obvious limitations - like any loudspeaker product does, at every pricepoint.
I've not had that much experience using the DXS subs, but when I use them - they are perfectly competent performers, that get the job done nicely. It would be rather peculiar if they could equal the performance of two similarly-priced alternatives.
By contrast whenever they are referenced on Gearslagz or whatever, folks appear to feel obliged to add a qualifying comment that bandpass subs are inevitably "one-note wonders".
Having used a lot of Italian powered subs, many of which are 4th order bandpass designs - I do not recognise this characterisation. When used within the scope anticipated by their designers, they are perfectly capable of sounding good.
The no free lunch in audio refrain should be boldly printed across every MI speaker. Once that is understood, the mythical unicorn product that potentially performs as well as another costing twice the price, will wither away from the speculation and general BS that seems to surround the MI powered speaker market!
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The DSR112's are not horridly heavy at 47lbs, but you feel that extra 11 lbs when carrying them (especially 2 at a time).
The DSR112's are 1kg lighter than the DXR15's I own which is a good thing. However, I don't like the fact that the handle is on top when mounting on stands.
I hear the newest ART RCF 745 speakers are both light (42 lbs) and great sounding, albeit a bit higher in price than the 12's we have been mostly discussing ($1500). The 735 is only a couple of pounds heavier, but runs only $1K. Haven't heard anyone say anything about these yet though.
I heard the 735a's very briefly and they did sound good but it was in a small demo room and just pre-recorded music! Ideally I'd like to move away from plastic speaker boxes and get some wood cabinets. Also, I'm really not that keen on the appearance of those RCF boxes. I prefer a simple full grill for corporate work. Anyway, I'm hoping to take my DXR15's over at some point and a/b them outside but this won't be for a while.
This has been a real problem for me too! It seems every new MI powered speaker product adds extra unnecessary sockets, switches, knobs, buttons and screens - cluttering up even further the rear of these boxes, providing more opportunities for wondering hands and accidental knocks to make inappropriate adjustments or break something.
If just one company could design a product with simple input and thru sockets, plus a port to provide control via a phone app or tablet etc - I think they'd find a market, as long as they don't charge Meyer prices of course.
That issue aside, I don't see any need for new or additional models of powered speakers. If I was in the business of investing in this kind of equipment, I'd want products that are proven in terms of their build quality and performance.
For some reason the MI sector seems to attract interest in new products that no one has seen or heard yet. Then there are attempts to parse minute performance differences, as justification for what represent effectively sideways moves.
I don't mind having a couple of sockets on the back as I sometimes use a speaker for rehearsals/workshops and I like being able to plug a keyboard and vocal mic into it.i like the fact that it is multi purpose. I also like having switches for HPF and DSP settings. I don't like digital screens with menus etc though!
Whilst the difference between these MI speakers aren't huge like going from Alto to KV2, L'Acoustics, DB Technologies there can be quite a noticeable difference between some products!
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I heard the 735a's very briefly and they did sound good but it was in a small demo room and just pre-recorded music! Ideally I'd like to move away from plastic speaker boxes and get some wood cabinets. Also, I'm really not that keen on the appearance of those RCF boxes. I prefer a simple full grill for corporate work.
It looks like RCF may be utilizing the ART 7 series components in new NX models that are coming out soon. Wood cabinets, full grills.
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It looks like RCF may be utilizing the ART 7 series components in new NX models that are coming out soon. Wood cabinets, full grills.
That sounds very interesting! Is there any more info on these anywhere?
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It looks like RCF may be utilizing the ART 7 series components in new NX models that are coming out soon. Wood cabinets, full grills.
Although the current models have some ergonomic oddities for FOH use, i.e., power and signal connectors come out of the top face of the cab when the speakers are pole mounted.
Pricier, too, unsurprisingly.
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.... a speaker with no switches I have to check every time...
This feature-set creep on MI self-powered speakers is a recurring problem for larger inventories. A DSP with configuration lock would be helpful.
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Although the current models have some ergonomic oddities for FOH use, i.e., power and signal connectors come out of the top face of the cab when the speakers are pole mounted.
Pricier, too, unsurprisingly.
You are referring to the current coaxial floor wedges. They have new conventional two way traps coming.
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That sounds very interesting! Is there any more info on these anywhere?
Not that I see googling, but here is a brochure page.
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The DSR112's are 1kg lighter than the DXR15's I own which is a good thing. However, I don't like the fact that the handle is on top when mounting on stands.
I have mentioned this before too - one of the very few pet peeves I have with my DSR112's. I suppose Yamaha figured that anything under 50lbs is light enough to lift onto a stand without aside handle - maybe that is so at the beginning of the night but not at the end.. it always feels 20lbs heavier at 1.00am in the morning!!
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Not that I see googling, but here is a brochure page.
Wow looks like the 745a and 732a in wooden cabinets! The NX 45-A is only 1kg heavier than my DXR15's so I'll be very interested in hearing those at some point! I'd also be interested in hearing the NX 32-A also because I've found in the past the specs RCF publish seem to out perform other MI speakers I've tried regarding max SPL and frequency response!
I have mentioned this before too - one of the very few pet peeves I have with my DSR112's. I suppose Yamaha figured that anything under 50lbs is light enough to lift onto a stand without aside handle - maybe that is so at the beginning of the night but not at the end.. it always feels 20lbs heavier at 1.00am in the morning!!
Yes this has put me off because I've got a dodgy shoulder and having side handles makes all the difference for me! I've found it harder to put lighter speakers with only one handle on the top onto a stand than a heavier one with a side handle!
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Hmm, I'll agree that the single top handle seems odd, but it's not been a problem for me. I'm tall enough that I can carry them around from the handles, and two at a time seems easier with them upright. When I'm putting them on stands I usually hold them with two hands from the bottom so the lack of handles isn't an issue. Often I'm standing on one sub and putting them on a pole stuck in the other sub. Although I'm thinking of investing in crank stands to get them up higher and start from an easier place.
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Hmm, I'll agree that the single top handle seems odd, but it's not been a problem for me. I'm tall enough that I can carry them around from the handles, and two at a time seems easier with them upright. When I'm putting them on stands I usually hold them with two hands from the bottom so the lack of handles isn't an issue. Often I'm standing on one sub and putting them on a pole stuck in the other sub. Although I'm thinking of investing in crank stands to get them up higher and start from an easier place.
There is definitely a 'knack' to it - using the bottom of the speaker to push it up onto the stand. I do use crank and gas assist which helps but the start height can still seem to high sometimes.
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Yes this has put me off because I've got a dodgy shoulder and having side handles makes all the difference for me! I've found it harder to put lighter speakers with only one handle on the top onto a stand than a heavier one with a side handle!
If it helps at all Richard, I can lift them onto stands myself - only 5' 2" and not a 'big girl' at all and I had shoulder surgery about 15 years ago. I just prefer not to and let hubby handle them.....
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I have mentioned this before too - one of the very few pet peeves I have with my DSR112's. I suppose Yamaha figured that anything under 50lbs is light enough to lift onto a stand without aside handle - maybe that is so at the beginning of the night but not at the end.. it always feels 20lbs heavier at 1.00am in the morning!!
LOL. I say this at every gig Debbie ;)
We usually play until ~1:30am so it is generally around 2:00am when we start carrying speakers out. After a full load in from the basement, followed by ~30-60min setup, followed by ~4 hours of performing, that 47lbs feels like a ton at break down! :)
Thank God for Tiger Balm and a wife that knows how to kneed it into the muscles :)
I do agree though. 50lbs is about all I would want to lift up onto stands with 1 person. I can carry my 81lb XLF's if there is absolutely no other possible way out of it, but that is more than most people would be able to deal with.
Is plastic really that big a deal for FOH speaker sound?
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Is plastic really that big a deal for FOH speaker sound?
Maybe not?
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I suppose Yamaha figured that anything under 50lbs is light enough to lift onto a stand without aside handle - maybe that is so at the beginning of the night but not at the end.. it always feels 20lbs heavier at 1.00am in the morning!!
Just because you *can* doesn't mean you enjoy doing it. It's why I love the top & both sides handles on the ART 7 series - and they're really comfortable handles too...
You are referring to the current coaxial floor wedges. They have new conventional two way traps coming.
Aha, so more than just a minor revamp, then. Looks much more practical to use for FOH.
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Wow looks like the 745a and 732a in wooden cabinets!
That's what I got too.
Market segmentation means they cant allow them to be too good or they'll lose TT sales, but doesn't meant they can't better their competitors.
The TTs really are a step up from this category of box, and in my opinion is where someone looking for a step up from the Yammies should look. The Yammies are class beyond their price (and weight!), and one really has to try quite hard (ie spend a pile of bucks) to get significantly better in that sort of format. On the other hand, it's sometimes possible to use a "size down" of TT compared to other manufacturers boxen.
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Hmm, I'll agree that the single top handle seems odd, but it's not been a problem for me. I'm tall enough that I can carry them around from the handles, and two at a time seems easier with them upright. When I'm putting them on stands I usually hold them with two hands from the bottom so the lack of handles isn't an issue. Often I'm standing on one sub and putting them on a pole stuck in the other sub. Although I'm thinking of investing in crank stands to get them up higher and start from an easier place.
I don't carry anything. If you are carrying speakers something is wrong with your logistics. Everything either rides or has wheels. Gigs with stairs require a helper or I pass on the booking.
Time is money. One flight of stairs can be done by one guy. Two stories, I need three to load in within a reasonable time period. I can't run a business on extraordinary performance and asking one guy to schlepp 2000lbs of gear up a flight of stairs and back down (or the other way around) is not something I can bank on. They certainly aren't going to be able to setup and the mix the show with any level of proficiency at the edge of exhaustion.
It's also a recipe for accidents. Studies have shown that the degradation of performance is quite steep with exhaustion. It's not a gentle slope. Given overload humans revert to a form of sensory lock where the simplest of tasks become too difficult.
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+1 on Scott's comment. I just passed on an event because it's on the third floor and there's no elevator. Increased labor costs would exceed the clients budget, not to mention that production days are long enough without having to mule gear up and down three flights of stairs. I have 10 QSC HPR122s packed two to a case. I use them as monitors on larger shows and over HPR 181 subs as main PA on smaller events. I always thought they sounded better than K series and KW series. Was a little disappointed when they were discontinued. In terms of ROI, they've been the best money I ever spent. They've been used heavily for years and held up incredibly well. Other then the fact that they're in need of a fresh coat of paint, I've only had to replace one HF driver and one 18" woofer. Both blown up on rentals.
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+1 on Scott's comment. I just passed on an event because it's on the third floor and there's no elevator. Increased labor costs would exceed the clients budget, not to mention that production days are long enough without having to mule gear up and down three flights of stairs. I have 10 QSC HPR122s packed two to a case. I use them as monitors on larger shows and over HPR 181 subs as main PA on smaller events. I always thought they sounded better than K series and KW series. Was a little disappointed when they were discontinued. In terms of ROI, they've been the best money I ever spent. They've been used heavily for years and held up incredibly well. Other then the fact that they're in need of a fresh coat of paint, I've only had to replace one HF driver and one 18" woofer. Both blown up on rentals.
+1 on Gary's comment. We also pushed our HPR's to monitor duty and they have become our premium monitor. They have gone out with a cross rented line array on an outdoor stage for a national act with rave reviews. Since then we have positioned them for that duty. We still have 6 working HPR122's and Two HPR 152's and an HPR115 sub for drum monitor. I wish I had not sold my HPR153's. They would have been perfect over KW122's for side fill duty. When I sold them I never thought I had never done a stage large enough for side fills.
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I have a dolly where two DSRs sit angled face to face with the backs in opposite corners. Fairly compact. But there are times when I'm using them in a bar gig, throwing them in the back of my Mazda 3 or just moving them around. It seems like more handles would be nice, but it's never been a problem for me.
Agreed about the load in logistics. Grassy fields, stairs, dumbwaiters, narrow hallways. All add to the pain of a gig. At least out here we rarely have to deal with snow and icy parking lots. A couple times in the mountains was enough for me. Pile the gear onto a snowcat? Okay, but I won't be back next year. ;)
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I have a dolly where two DSRs sit angled face to face with the backs in opposite corners. Fairly compact. But there are times when I'm using them in a bar gig, throwing them in the back of my Mazda 3 or just moving them around. It seems like more handles would be nice, but it's never been a problem for me.
Agreed about the load in logistics. Grassy fields, stairs, dumbwaiters, narrow hallways. All add to the pain of a gig. At least out here we rarely have to deal with snow and icy parking lots. A couple times in the mountains was enough for me. Pile the gear onto a snowcat? Okay, but I won't be back next year. ;)
Surprisingly this winter we dodged and really bad days. Back inn the day when we were pushing around a 2300lbs of Apogee speakers and amp rack we utilized a trailer. Pulled by an old Dodge conversion van. Was a real hoot.
I digressed as usual, the ramp to the van froze over as we were loading in. Pushing these cases up an ice covered ramp was a mess. We had our boots and Carharts so it warmth was not an issue. It was comical. I am glad we moved on from those days.
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... Back inn the day when we were pushing around a 2300lbs of Apogee speakers and amp rack we utilized a trailer.....
Scott I still have my AE5s, and they still sound amazing with the P5 analog processor. In the large and spacious PA Plus warehouse here in Toronto, they always won blind shootout comparisons to Meyers UPAs.
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Not that I see googling, but here is a brochure page.
Exactly what I've been looking for ... Hoping they have a Monitor angle , and ability to rotate the horns
.. specs look awesome , and weight !
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Exactly what I've been looking for ... Hoping they have a Monitor angle , and ability to rotate the horns
.. specs look awesome , and weight !
I have a pair of NXM10A from when they first started the NX series. They do have a monitor angle and rotatable horns.
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I've been using DSR112s for a few years now - primarily for monitor duty, though they go out as a SOS DJ rig quite frequently. My company owns several, and I just purchased several more for a restaurant / venue I manage to complete their monitor package and facilitate a secondary portable PA for their summer deck soloist and duo shows. (Shoutout again to the one and only Mike Pyle for supplying them!)
If Yamaha asked ME how they could improve the DSR112, I'd recommend:
- Plywood construction instead of MDF (yeah, $$$, I know)
- Reinforce the bottom rear corner of the trapezoid, which takes the brunt of any careless handling by tired techs. Aforementioned MDF cannot take this abuse.
- Place rubber feet on the 'Floor' side of the trapezoid when in monitor position.
- Handles on the sides
- Dual-angle pole cup
- A fully enclosed cover. We have some covers from Cloud 9 that have a bottom flap and hard board reinforcement and are sooo much nicer than the stock Yamaha slip-over ones. The slip covers do not protect that bottom rear corner, while the fully enclosed ones do.
- An elegant method of enabling symmetrical monitor placement; which is to say, having either side 'down' in monitor position. The amp and connector panel prohibits this in the current design. An alternate input panel for power and signal on the top or bottom of the enclosure, which would be the sides in monitor position, would do it. Cooling the heatsink, now down against the floor in this alternate monitor position, would be an issue to solve.
- There's a relatively large space between the Horn and Woofer on the DSR, which, if reduced, could theoretically improve the the vertical polar pattern. I have not measured this nor found it to be objectionable however, just a thought.
- I'd be content to do away with the 'D-contour' and integrated high-pass functions and the switchable white LED, but I understand why those features are a selling point for other applications than mine.
An acoustic upgrade to the DSR118W sub would be most welcome. They do alright in the 60 Hz kick drum region, but don't really go that low. I once measured them beside a QSC KW181, and the 181 went waaay lower. The integrated casters on the KW181 are a nice feature too that Yamaha could to well to emulate. A DSR118 over a DSR118W makes a killer drum fill, but the sub is underwhelming for FOH Duty.
FWIW, to reach back a few pages into this thread, I once did a hasty A/B comparison of a DSR112 and UPA-1P, just using pre-recorded tracks. The DSR112 is actually a bigger box, while the UPA is both smaller and (substantially) heavier. As such, the DSR is tuned lower; the UPA is obviously intended to be used with subs, while the DSR can get away without them for basic playback. However, the HF section of the UPA blows the DSR away in uniformity of coverage subjective 'smoothness,' and overall the UPA wins in sheer clean output... Unsurprisingly ;-)
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I have a pair of NXM10A from when they first started the NX series. They do have a monitor angle and rotatable horns.
that is actually a really cool form factor... i wonder why they discontinued them?
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that is actually a really cool form factor... i wonder why they discontinued them?
I think it was just the rising cost of neodymium, and not enough of a market at the time for the added expense of the cabinetry.
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I am very keen to hear how the new RCF NX45a will compare to the Yamaha DXR15's. I am also very interested to know how the NX32a will compare to the Yamaha DSR112 and FBT Ventis 112a and FBT Mitus 112a!
Is there a rough date when the new RCF NX45a and NX32a will be shipping?
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I've been using DSR112s for a few years now - primarily for monitor duty, though they go out as a SOS DJ rig quite frequently. My company owns several, and I just purchased several more for a restaurant / venue I manage to complete their monitor package and facilitate a secondary portable PA for their summer deck soloist and duo shows. (Shoutout again to the one and only Mike Pyle for supplying them!)
If Yamaha asked ME how they could improve the DSR112, I'd recommend:
- Plywood construction instead of MDF (yeah, $$$, I know)
- Reinforce the bottom rear corner of the trapezoid, which takes the brunt of any careless handling by tired techs. Aforementioned MDF cannot take this abuse.
- Place rubber feet on the 'Floor' side of the trapezoid when in monitor position.
- Handles on the sides
- Dual-angle pole cup
- A fully enclosed cover. We have some covers from Cloud 9 that have a bottom flap and hard board reinforcement and are sooo much nicer than the stock Yamaha slip-over ones. The slip covers do not protect that bottom rear corner, while the fully enclosed ones do.
- An elegant method of enabling symmetrical monitor placement; which is to say, having either side 'down' in monitor position. The amp and connector panel prohibits this in the current design. An alternate input panel for power and signal on the top or bottom of the enclosure, which would be the sides in monitor position, would do it. Cooling the heatsink, now down against the floor in this alternate monitor position, would be an issue to solve.
- There's a relatively large space between the Horn and Woofer on the DSR, which, if reduced, could theoretically improve the the vertical polar pattern. I have not measured this nor found it to be objectionable however, just a thought.
- I'd be content to do away with the 'D-contour' and integrated high-pass functions and the switchable white LED, but I understand why those features are a selling point for other applications than mine.
An acoustic upgrade to the DSR118W sub would be most welcome. They do alright in the 60 Hz kick drum region, but don't really go that low. I once measured them beside a QSC KW181, and the 181 went waaay lower. The integrated casters on the KW181 are a nice feature too that Yamaha could to well to emulate. A DSR118 over a DSR118W makes a killer drum fill, but the sub is underwhelming for FOH Duty.
FWIW, to reach back a few pages into this thread, I once did a hasty A/B comparison of a DSR112 and UPA-1P, just using pre-recorded tracks. The DSR112 is actually a bigger box, while the UPA is both smaller and (substantially) heavier. As such, the DSR is tuned lower; the UPA is obviously intended to be used with subs, while the DSR can get away without them for basic playback. However, the HF section of the UPA blows the DSR away in uniformity of coverage subjective 'smoothness,' and overall the UPA wins in sheer clean output... Unsurprisingly ;-)
The UPA is an extremely nice sounding speaker. I am pretty happy with my DSR's though. As you point out, even if money was no issue (until I win the lottery, money still remains an issue ;) ), there is still the weight (77 lbs each). Can't see myself putting that thing up on a stand by myself!
Thanks for the information. I always wondered how it would sound side by side. As you pointed out, the horn on the UPA is a thing of beauty!
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Is there a rough date when the new RCF NX45a and NX32a will be shipping?
Not anytime soon from what the rep tells me.
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Not anytime soon from what the rep tells me.
Ah! Ok.