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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Michael Abernethy on February 09, 2016, 03:55:51 AM
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Sorry to repost this but I can't reply to the other post for some reason
I'm looking to upgrade my board to a digital soundcraft SI soon, I can get the Impact or the Expression 2 for roughly the same price however Im struggling to decide between them. I don't see my self needing anymore than 32 channels so the difference in 40 vs 66 channels doesn't really matter, the VCA's and scribble strip could be nice. I typically do sound for 2-3 bands up to 1000 people per night. Has anyone here used both or have any preference between the two?
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Have you tried a forum search? There have been many threads over the past year comparing these two boards.
-Ray
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I have recently replaced my Expression3 with an Impact. No regrets. It has the features that I had wished were on the Expression.
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Michael,
I have the Expression 2 and the Performer 3, I got both mixers before the Impact came out. If had the choice then, I'd have the Impact and the Performer 3. I like the Expression, but besides the features that you've mentioned, the Impact also has two option slots like the Performer and it comes with the optional combo Madi/USB card. I had to buy that card.
My true preference would be to have; Expression1, Impact and Performer3. I really like the SI series. I transistioned via Presonus mixers & a Yamaha LS9-32.
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It sounds like the Impact would fit your needs best.
It has the footprint of the Expression 2, but 32 on board inputs.
It seems to me that it's only real limitations are the lesser internal channel count and the lack of dedicated input trim pots.
I think the addition of scribble strips, VCAs and 4 full PEQs more than makes up for that.
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The Impact is a very nice board with options that should have been put on the Expression from the beginning. I own an Expression, looked at the Impact, and bought a Performer, which IMO is the last step you take before entering the Vi series.
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I bought an Expression 2 right before the Impact came out and then hit the price drop. Gotta live with the decision. But I would have definitely gone for the Impact. The extra potential channels and individual channel encoders don't make up for the loss of scribble strips. Love the board otherwise though.
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The Soundcraft lovers just couldn't bring themselves to criticise properly the lack of scribble strips on both the Compact and the Expression. And the Performer, while having them, was always too much of a price hike for many to justify.
Of course, as soon as the Impact came out, it was the no-brainer for everyone wanting a low cost Soundcraft desk. Hard for those who had swallowed their pride and bought a Compact/Expression. Just a shame they were *sooo* late joining the "reasonably priced desk with scribble strips" party
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Even without the scribble strips, the Expression is still best in class in my book. Adding them for the same price while losing less important features is a bonus. Since I only have a 24ch snake I really haven't had occasion to jump layers. Most of what I've done has been bar gigs where I had plenty of faders. The municipal festivals don't really allow for sophisticated sub grouping as it's just about impossible to get stage plots or input lists from the folks who play the ones I do. You just stick a 57 on it and go until the next group comes up.
The main thing with the SC was the workflow. I do as much mixing from stage while playing as I do providing for others. I want to be able to look over and stab whatever needs it without messing around. The SC control surface was the easiest to find things on in the genre. After fighting with a Touchmix someone in a band I played with brought in I want as few steps or layers to things as I could find. Most of the SC is a two move at worst.
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Alec,
Much of that may be true, however, scribble strips were not the specific or only reason I moved from and Expression to a Performer. Fact of the matter is the price is more than justified as the board is an entirely different animal than either the Expression or Impact. I own both an Expression and a Performer, and as much as I like scribble strips I stand by my former statements. I could live without them if I didn't have them. Of course that may be a leftover from 50 years of working without scribble strips.
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I'm still hoping for a smaller version of the impact to come out, about the physical size of the expression 1. I don't need 24/32 inputs, but the expression feels a bit old now.
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I'm still hoping for a smaller version of the impact to come out, about the physical size of the expression 1. I don't need 24/32 inputs, but the expression feels a bit old now.
I'm with you on that. I'm ready to dump my Presonus 16.0.2 for a small Impact, if they ever come out with one.
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I'm with you on that. I'm ready to dump my Presonus 16.0.2 for a small Impact, if they ever come out with one.
Save your pennies and by a Performer 1. The cost will be about $3200. 80 channels in a rack.
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Save your pennies and by a Performer 1. The cost will be about $3200. 80 channels in a rack.
Bob, here's my current lineup:
Presonus SL16.0.2
Presonus SL24.4.2
Expression 2
Performer 3
I'd like to have a Soundcraft SI in $1200-$1500 range, which unfortunately they don't make one yet. Hoping that a small version of the Impact may happen one day. I was going back and forth between an Expr1 & Perf1, I can get an Expr1 for under 2k, but have decided to wait for now.
I sold my LS9-32 & SL1642 a year or so ago.
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I have no experience with the Performer, but I can't help but notice that for equal amount of channels on board, you will pay over twice as much for a Performer over the Impact! I understand that if you need 80 channels then you have no choice but how many of us ever use more than forty channels? If you do, you are probably looking at a much more expensive board anyway. Do the features justify such a huge difference in cost between the Impact and Performer?
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I'm not sure I'm ready to deal with 80 inputs on 16 faders. Maybe for a fixed band or show where you can do layers of sub grouping and scenes and things don't change much.
But I do agree that a 24-32 channel 19" version of the Impact with their workflow, master channel strip with all the eqs, fader glow, and scribble strips in the $1200-1500 range would be a runaway with bands doing their own sound.
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The main thing I don't like about the Impact is the last 8 channels 25-32 are 1/4/xlr combos. You have to give up a couple of mic channels to plug in an I-pod or similar device.
Of course it's not a big of a deal, unless you need those mic channels
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The main thing I don't like about the Impact is the last 8 channels 25-32 are 1/4/xlr combos. You have to give up a couple of mic channels to plug in an I-pod or similar device.
Of course it's not a big of a deal, unless you need those mic channels
Well if you need 32 mics plus some line inputs, then a 32 input board is too small.
In my opinion, if I am doing shows that require more than 32 inputs, then I expect they are paying enough to have an appropriate sized mixer.
That said, I have one with 32 xlrs and nothing else and a couple with up to 40 inputs but at my level, I don't come close to using them all. I sure do exceed 16 often enough though.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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The main thing I don't like about the Impact is the last 8 channels 25-32 are 1/4/xlr combos. You have to give up a couple of mic channels to plug in an I-pod or similar device.
Of course it's not a big of a deal, unless you need those mic channels
That's better than my Expression 2 which has only 24 XLRs plus 2 pairs of 1/4s. I look at it as a 24 channel board with a couple of spare inputs for iPods. If I want more channels, I have to buy a stage box that costs as much as the mixer. At least I do have that option, which is part of what swayed me from the Qu.
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Save your pennies and by a Performer 1. The cost will be about $3200. 80 channels in a rack.
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But the Perf 1 only has 16 onboard xlr inputs.
You would be required to buy a stagebox to utilize the extra power.
That said, I love both my Perf 1 and 2, and pick the one that makes sense for the gig.
Although, the Impact comes with a Madi / USB card.
The USB gives you 32 more inputs without a stagebox.
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The USB gives you 32 more inputs without a stagebox.
How does that work? ADA8000 and no gain control from the board surface?
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How does that work? ADA8000 and no gain control from the board surface?
ADA8000 is ADAT, not USB.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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The USB gives you 32 more inputs without a stagebox.
The USB card won't give 32 more channels in the SI Impact - it will give you another way to use the 32 it already has.
The SI Impact has 40 DSP input channels (32 mono inputs and 4 stereo channels/returns).
The Expression (66) and Performer (80) both have more a higher number of usable inputs, if that's what is important to you. Inputs can be sourced from the on-board inputs and/or options cards like USB, MADI, Dante, etc.
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The USB card won't give 32 more channels in the SI Impact - it will give you another way to use the 32 it already has.
The SI Impact has 40 DSP input channels (32 mono inputs and 4 stereo channels/returns).
The Expression (66) and Performer (80) both have more a higher number of usable inputs, if that's what is important to you. Inputs can be sourced from the on-board inputs and/or options cards like USB, MADI, Dante, etc.
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It will get you to your 40 inputs (8 more).
It could let you input break music without using a mic pre.
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Well if you need 32 mics plus some line inputs, then a 32 input board is too small.
In my opinion, if I am doing shows that require more than 32 inputs, then I expect they are paying enough to have an appropriate sized mixer.
That said, I have one with 32 xlrs and nothing else and a couple with up to 40 inputs but at my level, I don't come close to using them all. I sure do exceed 16 often enough though.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
I have a Performer 2 and a stage box. I don't often need 32 channels but it's nice to know I can handle it if needed.
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I have no experience with the Performer, but I can't help but notice that for equal amount of channels on board, you will pay over twice as much for a Performer over the Impact! I understand that if you need 80 channels then you have no choice but how many of us ever use more than forty channels? If you do, you are probably looking at a much more expensive board anyway. Do the features justify such a huge difference in cost between the Impact and Performer?
The answer is yes, there is a justified price increase. Those of us using the Performer series will probably all attest to a higher level of quality over the rest of the Si series. You also start to merge with the Vi series in that many of the components are taken directly from that series, as well as components from Studer. My big deal as most are aware has always been the quality of the board and the quality of the sound. That's why I would still own an APB board if I hadn't made the digital choice a while back, and that's why I own a Soundcraft digital board.
I'm at the end of my long road and I see the Performer as the last board I'll need. All the options anyone could want, need, or use in a small package, but with incredible expansion capabilities. And personally, although I'll never need them, I could see working40+ channels or more on the board simply because of the channel strip design combined with the one touch system Soundcraft uses. Board functions are just too obvious and easy to use, even for a dummy like me.
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Hey guys, thanks for the great feedback. I'll go with the the impact now for sure! unless anyone knows anything about a replacement expression coming in the near future
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The USB card won't give 32 more channels in the SI Impact - it will give you another way to use the 32 it already has.
The SI Impact has 40 DSP input channels (32 mono inputs and 4 stereo channels/returns).
The Expression (66) and Performer (80) both have more a higher number of usable inputs, if that's what is important to you. Inputs can be sourced from the on-board inputs and/or options cards like USB, MADI, Dante, etc.
That is incorrect.
To clarify.
The MADI/USB option, which I own, allows for an additional stage box to be attached supporting the number of channels/inputs IN the stage box up to 64.
If the card is set up to use 32 channels of MADI and 32 channels for the USB option then you can support 32 additional channels via a stage box and use the USB channels for recording through a DAW. I use Cubase.
If you use the second option port for an additional MADI card you can support 32 + 32, 64 additional channels for a total of 80 channels, in a Performer 1.
Channels are added and show up in contiguous order across the board starting at the last board physical fader number. I.E. If the board is a 16 fader/channel Performer 1, then the additional channels will start at 17 and end at 48 using a 32 channels stage box.
You can support up to 64 channels using the MADI cards and the stage boxes at the link below;
http://www.soundcraft.com/products/compact-stagebox
http://www.soundcraft.com/products/Mini-Stagebox
You can also fit a pair of the adapter boards at the link below and configure to your hearts desire;
http://www.soundcraft.com/products/Si-Option-Cards
But you won't, will not, can't add to the channel count using the USB port on any of the cards.
MADI USB Combo *
The Soundcraft® MADI-USB Combo card offers digital audio connection between an Si series console and Apple® Mac® or PC with a USB port as well as any of the Soundcraft range of Stageboxes via Soundcraft’s proprietary Cat 5 MADI connection.
Part Numbers:
5049248
MADI
The MADI I/O card can establish a 64-channel MADI input and output to a remote device such as stage rack, another console or Broadcast feed to an OB. Optical inputs and outputs are provided on SC connectors and are available in single and multi-mode versions. The auxiliary interface can be used as a redundant link. A Cat5 version of the card is also available.
Part Numbers:
Single Mode Optical - 5019983.v
Multimode Optical - A520.001000SP
Dual Cat5 - A520.005000SP
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One possible bit of confusion;
The number of possible inputs can WAY exceed the number of mix channels.
With two MADI cards, you have access to 96 input channels (64+32) and how ever many are native to the console; 16+, 24+, 32+.
With one Madi card and a stagebox, add the native inputs to the stagebox inputs (16 or 32).
You are limited to the number of mix channels of each board; 40, 66, 80.
But you can pick and chose and route from any of the available inputs.
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Those of us using the Performer series will probably all attest to a higher level of quality over the rest of the Si series. You also start to merge with the Vi series in that many of the components are taken directly from that series, as well as components from Studer.
Are you sure about that? Objectively? In blind testing?
Soundcraft say that both the Expression and Performer use Vi pre-amps, and I've never seen anything to suggest that the Performer has an audio performance premium over the Expression. Though, yes, it does have greater mix capability, scribble strips - not to mention DMX ;)
Which made me look harder at the Impact - can't find any boasts about the mic pres in the Impact - wonder if they've cut corners there, or have given up on the "how good the pres are" line?
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After using and owning both, I can not detect any difference in the quality between the Impact and Expression. I have no experience with the Performer.
I would not be surprised if the Expression is soon to become an endangered species, just like the Compact!
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Are you sure about that? Objectively? In blind testing?
Soundcraft say that both the Expression and Performer use Vi pre-amps, and I've never seen anything to suggest that the Performer has an audio performance premium over the Expression. Though, yes, it does have greater mix capability, scribble strips - not to mention DMX ;)
Which made me look harder at the Impact - can't find any boasts about the mic pres in the Impact - wonder if they've cut corners there, or have given up on the "how good the pres are" line?
Alec,
I didn't say there was an audio quality difference. I said;
" Those of us using the Performer series will probably all attest to a higher level of quality over the rest of the Si series."
I believe the component and build quality to be a bit higher on the Performer models within the Si series. I don't believe anyone is going to hear a sonic difference if the boards are set up and used correctly.
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Are you sure about that? Objectively? In blind testing?
Soundcraft say that both the Expression and Performer use Vi pre-amps, and I've never seen anything to suggest that the Performer has an audio performance premium over the Expression. Though, yes, it does have greater mix capability, scribble strips - not to mention DMX ;)
Which made me look harder at the Impact - can't find any boasts about the mic pres in the Impact - wonder if they've cut corners there, or have given up on the "how good the pres are" line?
>> Soundcraft say that both the Expression and Performer use Vi pre-amps, <<
Really? Please show me where Soundcraft states this.
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I agree Steve. I have read this about the Performer but not the Expression.
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>> Soundcraft say that both the Expression and Performer use Vi pre-amps, <<
Really? Please show me where Soundcraft states this.
I had a good scan round to check this out over the weekend, and found info on Soundcraft's website that said that. Nothing conclusive about the Impact, mind. Of course, can I find it again now....?
I believe the component and build quality to be a bit higher on the Performer models within the Si series. I don't believe anyone is going to hear a sonic difference if the boards are set up and used correctly.
Thought so (on the lack of sound difference). What makes you believe the component/build quality is higher on the Performer? Soundcraft never made anything of this angle. If fact, it was *all* about the DMX functionality when it was launched, with a little mention of the scribble strips, and barely anything of the mix capacity.
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I had a good scan round to check this out over the weekend, and found info on Soundcraft's website that said that. Nothing conclusive about the Impact, mind. Of course, can I find it again now....?
Thought so (on the lack of sound difference). What makes you believe the component/build quality is higher on the Performer? Soundcraft never made anything of this angle. If fact, it was *all* about the DMX functionality when it was launched, with a little mention of the scribble strips, and barely anything of the mix capacity.
Once you have worked on a Performer, you will see very quickly that the build quality is better. The knobs and faders have a much more solid feel.
I own all 3. Compact, Expression and Performer. I can tell you from my experience that the way I run the settings on each (for the same band) is different.
I notice a difference with the mic pre's and the comp's primarily between the Expression and the other 2 models. The Compact and the Performer I usually run virtually the same.
Forgot.
I've worked on the Impact a couple of times. To me it feels just like the Expression.
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>> Soundcraft say that both the Expression and Performer use Vi pre-amps, <<
Really? Please show me where Soundcraft states this.
First post, so brace yourself...
The early Si series brochure:
https://www.ccisolutions.com/StoreFront/jsp/pdf/SND-SIEXPRESS_SPECS.pdf
"All the mixing power in the world
is useless without great sound.That’s why we gave
Si Expression ultra-transparent, high-headroom,
recallable mic preamps with digital control straight
from our Vi1 console, and DSP performance from
the advanced audio labs of Soundcraft Studer."
I think they wanted to say the Si series has digital controled preamps just like Vi1, but not really Vi1 preamps ;)
And then, there is an another brochure:
http://soundcraft.com.s3.amazonaws.com/downloads/brochures/Si-Expression-Brochure-MR.pdf
"Soundcraft Co-Founder Graham Blythe’s acclaimed microphone
preamps and ‘British’ equaliser still adorn the Si Expression
with signature Soundcraft sound today."
"16/24/32 recallable GB mic inputs with locking
connectors and phantom power indicators"
...
Bought the Expression 3 for touring purposes recently.
Have been working as a FOH/mon sound tech for nearly 12 years now, bands, rental, venues, you name it - have been through most of the stuff, from Si's to Vi6, Midas Pro series, Yamaha's, analogue MH series, Heritage...
Had only experiences with Expression and Compact before buying the Expression (used, but still under warranty).
I needed something that I can fit into the van with full backline, but with at least 24 channels of inputs, of course on a budget.
The new Digico S21 was way out of my budget (actually i think it's a great bang for the buck, but i don't have 5000 euros).
Have tried all the small stuff:
LS9 - seriously - it's 10 years outdated, sounds "okay" - for most of the stuff, undestructible just like any other Yamaha product, but I didn't feel like buying such an old console.
QU series from Allen & Heath - seem cheap under hand, faders and knobs, you cannot route channels, can't remember, but i think you can't even duplicate the input (i use it sometimes for vocals so i can send them to monitors with different eq and compression), and soundwise it's nothing special, nothing to write home about.
X32 - i've been working on this console a lot, it's full of features that mostly work, but generally just mimick the real purpose. The gate is excellent, key filter works fantastic. The on channel compressor is not really that good, and FX are... well nothing to write home about. Overall, a lot of features but mixes are really poor. I rate the old Allen & Heat analog GL2400 sounds better without any outboards connected, straight mixes sound a bit garbled with X32, the M32 does sound a bit better, and mixes don't sound bad even with the same scene loaded (same band).
In the end I chose Soundcraft.
No scribble scripts? I use it for one band only - so I don't care, but personally I think it's a bit outdated without it.
No 4 band eq? Well... most of the mid range analogue consoles did not have full parametric eq on 4 bands, and you could still do a proper EQ, so why not here?
Small screen? Actually the only time I need to look at it is when I change effect parameters (delay feedback for instance), or loading a show. The led's on the eq section do give enough information.
Rotary knobs above each channel - I think it's the only console in this price range with this feature, finally I can do fast pans of guitars during the song.
The Expression sounds very good!
To me - it sounds better than the QU and X32, and I would dare to say it sounds pretty good compared to M32 also.
You can get a proper mix with distorted guitars, and not having problems with differentiating instruments, the X32 sort of masks everything, I cannot explain it, but I think it's the amount of information that's actually been taken after the preamp is way to low to have decent resolution in a mix.
I cannot say the console sounds transparent, it does have it's own voicing - a sound, however you want to call it - and I like it.
The compressor on the Si does really remind of analogue compressors, in the way they operate - or should I say - I expect it to behave in some manner, and it does. A lot of digital boards have compressors that have been programmed by people who never used DBX160 or some other older stuff. I don't expect transparency and precision, I expect it to sound good, and the compressor on the Si does the job done. X32's compressor is not that good.
The EQ is also very good. Dare to say - it's musical - it is, unlike harsh X32 eq, Soundcraft's is usable when boosting highs for instance, and generally, the console sounds a bit "fatter", compared to X32.
FX - Lexicon's engine. I admit - am a fanboy of Vi series Lexicon's and these work pretty much the same, a clear winner.
I needed a console that I could bring to a club venue, or to an open air concert without having doubts that it will sound cheap.
I really like the old MH2 console and DBX160A's for vocals and bass, and classic Drawmer/BSS compressors/gates, and the Si is the closest I get to remind of that sound/the way they operate - in a small package. Having said that - I cannot honestly say that any high grade digital console (Vi6 for instance) compressors remind of the analogue outboards... They work great, but not the same.
First gig was in a sports hall, 3000 people attendance, and I was really satisfied how the console performed.
(http://s25.postimg.org/6lcaagkvf/12901119_10153669535981676_6714915717303653295_o.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6lcaagkvf/) (http://s25.postimg.org/bmjobtsbv/20160413024141_IMG_20160401_224840.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/bmjobtsbv/) (http://s25.postimg.org/k3j6mqx0r/20160413024144_IMG_20160401_221523.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/k3j6mqx0r/) (http://s25.postimg.org/v5o9l6r3f/20160413024150_IMG_20160401_215113.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/v5o9l6r3f/) (http://s25.postimg.org/nqyxst57v/351845_rasreda_54.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/nqyxst57v/)
Next week I had two club shows, 1000 people attendance each day, and the room acoustics where much better, so I could get an even better mix.
Some time - in the future I would like to buy an USB/MADI card to have an option of recording multitrack, and also - since a local rental company has a Compact stagebox, I could rent it for really big concerts since I think the Compact stagebox has Vi1 series preamps, and should sound a bit richer than the Si Expression, maybe better A/D D/A also? More information to process in the mix haha.
I know, the band's popularity and the amount of gigs they play - in some other EU country it would mean much higher level of production, and for a similar type of band (popularity wise) - for instance in the UK or Germany - people would have guitar techs, roadies, foh and monitor guy, and probably more expensive console at FOH, but given the place and region I work at, we don't have guitar techs, roadies or a monitoring guy, so even the console had to be modest.
Once you have worked on a Performer, you will see very quickly that the build quality is better. The knobs and faders have a much more solid feel.
I own all 3. Compact, Expression and Performer. I can tell you from my experience that the way I run the settings on each (for the same band) is different.
I notice a difference with the mic pre's and the comp's primarily between the Expression and the other 2 models. The Compact and the Performer I usually run virtually the same.
Forgot.
I've worked on the Impact a couple of times. To me it feels just like the Expression.
Performer has better quality faders? Right?
Shouldn't the preamps and converters be the same across the whole Si range?
And btw you are not the first person I know that thinks the Compact sounds better than the Expression...
Cheers!
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Shouldn't the preamps and converters be the same across the whole Si range?
Yup. If you're using a stage box, it's literally the same I/O and preamps. What's going to sound better? Do they use cheap math in the Impact? Maybe an external clock would make the difference. [emoticon of hilarious laughing]