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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Tom Harrison on June 17, 2018, 08:26:06 PM
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Hi everybody
I'm a newly registered member but have been following the forum for a while. I need a pair of speakers and a pair of subs for small live and corporate event. Mainly for music playback and vocal with acoustics or soundtrack. Will be playing around 100dB or less so overall SPL doesn't matter. Weight and costs are also not a factor as we're not going to expand this system. The main criteria is sound quality and nothing else, must have liquid smooth and warm midrange for vocal and smooth high end. I'd like to hear your experience/opinion before I attempt to demo these. A lot of local distributors don't carry both brands. So here it is:
Nexo PS10R2 + LS600 + the brand new/refreshed amp NXAMP4X2MK2 (now 1200 watts 8 ohms instead of 1000 in the older model)
Vs
L'Acoustics X12 + SB18 + LA-4X amp
They're different sizes and it's not going to be a fair fight but I'm looking for that haunting realism, open, and smooth sound. Can Nexo come close to the coherent coaxial design? I can get either systems for about the same price zone so sound quality is the only thing being considered here. Thanks!
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Hi everybody
I'm a newly registered member but have been following the forum for a while. I need a pair of speakers and a pair of subs for small live and corporate event. Mainly for music playback and vocal with acoustics or soundtrack. Will be playing around 100dB or less so overall SPL doesn't matter. Weight and costs are also not a factor as we're not going to expand this system. The main criteria is sound quality and nothing else, must have liquid smooth and warm midrange for vocal and smooth high end. I'd like to hear your experience/opinion before I attempt to demo these. A lot of local distributors don't carry both brands. So here it is:
Nexo PS10R2 + LS600 + the brand new/refreshed amp NXAMP4X2MK2 (now 1200 watts 8 ohms instead of 1000 in the older model)
Vs
L'Acoustics X12 + SB18 + LA-4X amp
They're different sizes and it's not going to be a fair fight but I'm looking for that haunting realism, open, and smooth sound. Can Nexo come close to the coherent coaxial design? I can get either systems for about the same price zone so sound quality is the only thing being considered here. Thanks!
IMHO the L'Acoustics is in another league from the Nexo. I have to be honest with you, we have a provider in town with deep Nexo inventory. I have run the original PS10's and I thing the Yamaha DSR112's sound much better.
I have never heard the X12's or the SB18 but the SB28's never fail to impress. Especially with 3 or 4 Kara's stacked on top. I know the hatred for ground stacked LA elements but that is a damn fine system.
If you are looking for a wonderful pole mount speaker I would expand your selection set and look at the Danley SM80's. I also have run on the db Y10P's and they are very impressive.
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I am very much a nexo fan and have owned both generations of the PS10 cabinet and used about every box they have made. Theyre great. Theyre not even close to as good as the L'acoustics. I think the L'acoustics are the second best box made right behind the D&B V series.
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IMHO the L'Acoustics is in another league from the Nexo. I have to be honest with you, we have a provider in town with deep Nexo inventory. I have run the original PS10's and I thing the Yamaha DSR112's sound much better.
I have never heard the X12's or the SB18 but the SB28's never fail to impress. Especially with 3 or 4 Kara's stacked on top. I know the hatred for ground stacked LA elements but that is a damn fine system.
If you are looking for a wonderful pole mount speaker I would expand your selection set and look at the Danley SM80's. I also have run on the db Y10P's and they are very impressive.
Thanks for your input, Scott. What didnt you like about the Nexo? Do they sound "hard/crystalline" and or tinny/shouty or something else? I've heard some sound samples and it sounded a little rough around 2khz. Maybe some people call it presence but I like liquid smooth in this range much like the L'Acoustics. The Kara with SB28 and LA-12X amps are ridiculous good they should be banned LOL. The quotes I'm getting from dealers have the Y series significantly more expensive than the Nexo and L'Acoustics so I don't know if it makes any financial sense right now.
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Take a look at the SLS point source boxes at:
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/sls-pro-audio/point-source-speakers.html
They meet your description......."Will be playing around 100dB or less so overall SPL doesn't matter. Weight and costs are also not a factor as we're not going to expand this system. The main criteria is sound quality and nothing else, must have liquid smooth and warm midrange for vocal and smooth high end"
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Tom,
I've used the NEXO stuff quite a few times as a local hall has them installed. I've always been UNDERWHELMED. They just seem to lack "presence". It's a well done install with NEXO amps, but I think they are just lacking lacking something. For what ever that is worth.
When we do something there we always take in some SRX subs and some different front fills to make things come alive. I also think the the L-acoustics are MUCH better.
Scott
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Will be playing around 100dB or less so overall SPL doesn't matter.
At what distance do you want 100dB? Is that A or C, fast or slow?
Don't forget to add about 15dB for headroom when looking at specs.
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I have used the L'Acoustics X12 and they are a warm sweet sounding box. I have only ever heard one PS10 and it did not have any of its amplification and processing and I was thoroughly disappointed. It sounded really bad in fact and required a fair amount of work to make it sound acceptable. If it requires anywhere near as much work as it took me to get it somewhere, then it couldn't possibly be that great of a speaker.
The L' Acoustics stuff I have used has always been really nice and never disappointed. I have heard a couple different Nexo units ( not many in my area ) and was never super happy. I had a Nexo Alpha rig in one venue I came to manage, and when I replaced it with the JBL SRX stuff, it was an immediate improvement in quality of sound. However, I do feel that the Nexo rig was poorly deployed and was really not the correct solution for the venue, not so much that it was a bad sounding system. It is very difficult to beat L'Acoustics and D&B Audiotechnik. They are the upper echelon after all. While Nexo, RCF, QSC and a few others are in that market, they just aren't the same caliber.
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The Nexo PS series is getting a bit long in the tooth and for the l'Acoustic to sound subjectively better is not a surprise.
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Hi everybody
I'm a newly registered member but have been following the forum for a while. I need a pair of speakers and a pair of subs for small live and corporate event. Mainly for music playback and vocal with acoustics or soundtrack. Will be playing around 100dB or less so overall SPL doesn't matter. Weight and costs are also not a factor as we're not going to expand this system. The main criteria is sound quality and nothing else, must have liquid smooth and warm midrange for vocal and smooth high end. I'd like to hear your experience/opinion before I attempt to demo these. A lot of local distributors don't carry both brands. So here it is:
Nexo PS10R2 + LS600 + the brand new/refreshed amp NXAMP4X2MK2 (now 1200 watts 8 ohms instead of 1000 in the older model)
Vs
L'Acoustics X12 + SB18 + LA-4X amp
They're different sizes and it's not going to be a fair fight but I'm looking for that haunting realism, open, and smooth sound. Can Nexo come close to the coherent coaxial design? I can get either systems for about the same price zone so sound quality is the only thing being considered here. Thanks!
I am not sure how you narrowed your search down to those 2 systems, but, if sound quality is your only criteria and powered boxes are an option, I suggest you listen to Fulcrum Acoustics FA22AC and TS215AC. This is the sweetest small point source system I have ever heard.
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I also have run on the db Y10P's and they are very impressive.
While not from the two options originally presented, I'll will second this suggestion. We send out Y10P/V-Sub/D20 systems regularly and are continually impressed with the performance. Definitely worth a look.
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I have used the L'Acoustics X12 and they are a warm sweet sounding box. I have only ever heard one PS10 and it did not have any of its amplification and processing and I was thoroughly disappointed. It sounded really bad in fact and required a fair amount of work to make it sound acceptable. If it requires anywhere near as much work as it took me to get it somewhere, then it couldn't possibly be that great of a speaker.
The L' Acoustics stuff I have used has always been really nice and never disappointed. I have heard a couple different Nexo units ( not many in my area ) and was never super happy. I had a Nexo Alpha rig in one venue I came to manage, and when I replaced it with the JBL SRX stuff, it was an immediate improvement in quality of sound. However, I do feel that the Nexo rig was poorly deployed and was really not the correct solution for the venue, not so much that it was a bad sounding system. It is very difficult to beat L'Acoustics and D&B Audiotechnik. They are the upper echelon after all. While Nexo, RCF, QSC and a few others are in that market, they just aren't the same caliber.
Luke,
Did you listen to them in a monitor set up or FOH? Any issues with throw or off axis performance? I'm using this set up for short throw applications but some people reported that coaxial speakers sound great standing right before them but not so much if moving back some 20-30ft.
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I am not sure how you narrowed your search down to those 2 systems, but, if sound quality is your only criteria and powered boxes are an option, I suggest you listen to Fulcrum Acoustics FA22AC and TS215AC. This is the sweetest small point source system I have ever heard.
I've heard great things about the Fulcrum guys but not sure if I can demo them in Phoenix. Too bad none of these prestige brands are available in the store for shootouts. Do you think they can have an edge over the L'acoustics coaxial or about the same and it's coming down to preference and workflow?
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The X12 was both in front fill and in monitor applications. The PS10 was for a fill application. I own a pair of RCF NX12SMA's also for comparison ( which I think sound really good ). The X12 was fine at all standard listening positions. The PS10 just sounded meh no matter where I was. The NX12SMA sounds sweet and full at all typical listening positions as well.
I don't really believe that coaxial's are only good at near field applications. I think its because most are conical narrow coverage designs, that lend them more to near field / fill and monitor type use. Off axis of any speaker yields poor performance and I don't think that coaxial designs are any more susceptible to it. If you point the speaker where it is intended to work and the listener is in that coverage area, all should be fine.
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I am not sure how you narrowed your search down to those 2 systems, but, if sound quality is your only criteria and powered boxes are an option, I suggest you listen to Fulcrum Acoustics FA22AC and TS215AC. This is the sweetest small point source system I have ever heard.
I agree Steve. There are plenty of options out there that would rival those two options. Out of both of these I would take the L'Acoustics, but I agree that the Fulcrum Acoustics FA22C is a great box and I would add to this KV2 Audio EX10, Adamson S10P or even the Adamson Point series full stop. Plenty to choose from.
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ks audio session
And my all time favourite 10" top: Kling&Freitag CA 1001.
Regarding your options: l'acoustics. No contest. Just don't get them in the running pooh color.
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While not from the two options originally presented, I'll will second this suggestion. We send out Y10P/V-Sub/D20 systems regularly and are continually impressed with the performance. Definitely worth a look.
I've not heard the Y series. How do you think it compares directly to the X12? Or would the V series be a step up?
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I echo the above comments on Nexo, a bit long in the tooth these days and there are better options at this price. The kv2 ex12’s are a great option at reasonable prices, however, they may not be easily obtainable where you are. DB audiotechnik Y series are great as are the V, but V is a lot more money. Fulcrum boxes have a great reputation and though I’ve never heard them personally a lot of people I respect rate them and I’ve never heard anything but good comments suggesting that they are among the best small point source boxes out there. I’ve heard many good L’acoutic systems, but they are not my personal favourites, I always find that they sound very good, but I don’t get excited about them, make of that what you will.
Good luck!
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I've not heard the Y series. How do you think it compares directly to the X12? Or would the V series be a step up?
Can't speak to the X12 as I have not used it, however for the size and weight, the Y boxes have fantastic output and sound quality. We use them as mains for corporate events, DJs, etc and as front fill/out fill/side fill boxes with our V-rig for bigger shows. V is a step up in output, but also cost, weight and size. Both Y and V are passive boxes which greatly helps shrink your amp rack down. Like all d&b boxes, they are voiced similarly with the primary difference being LF extension.
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The other thing for the X12 is the amp control with LA Network Manager, (soon to be) 4 FIR filters (fixed), 8 EQ filters, and the array morphing and gain/delay ...
Slightly overkill for just a speaker/sub on a 'stick' combo, but as long as your happy with how far the throw is in the environments you use it in, it's a killer small PA.
Brad
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I'm a dealer, so grain of salt, but if I were doing this now I would get a Fulcrum CCX1295 with a yoke over CSP118 powered by a Linea Research 44M10. Amazing DSP, sound quality, and better pattern control than anything else mentioned due to the passive cardioid technology. Also going to cost a LOT less than D&B or L'acoustics. Probably closer to the Nexo in terms of cost.
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I am very much a nexo fan and have owned both generations of the PS10 cabinet and used about every box they have made. Theyre great. Theyre not even close to as good as the L'acoustics. I think the L'acoustics are the second best box made right behind the D&B V series.
How's the Y series compared to the V series? Same sonic footprint but less SPL? How do you best describe the d&b sound compared to L'acoustics?
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I echo the above comments on Nexo, a bit long in the tooth these days and there are better options at this price. The kv2 ex12’s are a great option at reasonable prices, however, they may not be easily obtainable where you are. DB audiotechnik Y series are great as are the V, but V is a lot more money. Fulcrum boxes have a great reputation and though I’ve never heard them personally a lot of people I respect rate them and I’ve never heard anything but good comments suggesting that they are among the best small point source boxes out there. I’ve heard many good L’acoutic systems, but they are not my personal favourites, I always find that they sound very good, but I don’t get excited about them, make of that what you will.
Good luck!
Now that the Y series came into the picture. pair of Y10p/Ysubs/D20 would be about 25K, thats 10K more than the similar LAcoustics point source set up. How would you justify the big gap in price? Do they sound that much better or this is depends on the market and cross rentals, etc?
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Now that the Y series came into the picture. pair of Y10p/Ysubs/D20 would be about 25K, thats 10K more than the similar LAcoustics point source set up. How would you justify the big gap in price? Do they sound that much better or this is depends on the market and cross rentals, etc?
Well budget wasn’t mentioned and I think you could get into the y series for a bit less than you mentioned above, for example going with B6 subs. My personal choice is d&b over l’acoustic generally, but others will have other choices. KV2 offer some excellent systems the ex12’s which are great for the money.
I think with the continued recommendations for the fulcrums I would try and get a listen to them.
All the above depends a lot on what you need the system for, whether you are planning to rent to customers that are specifying riders, size of events vs spl required, I feel these are only questions you can answer for yourself.
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Another one to look into if you can would be JTR. I have a pair of the Noesis 3TX & Orbit Shifters and the sound quality is superb. Paired with Captivator 212Pro or Orbit Shifter subs would be a high sound quality solution with the ability to cover most rooms. I also second the Fulcrum Acoustic and Danley SM80 choices recommended above.
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i think, the matter and purpose is only one - to hear everything like it front of you in few meters. Everything else is only a taste. So i think nexo, d&b, l acoustics, meyer doing this job pretty the same.
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I am not sure how you narrowed your search down to those 2 systems, but, if sound quality is your only criteria and powered boxes are an option, I suggest you listen to Fulcrum Acoustics FA22AC and TS215AC. This is the sweetest small point source system I have ever heard.
I'm still search for a system. The water is quite muddy at this top tier. I'm looking at L'acoustics X12, Meyer UPJ-1P,Fulcrum FA22AC. I have eliminated Adamson and Nexo out of contention. d&b is also eliminated due to excessive cost. To my surprise, Fulcrum is the most expensive of them 3! Now we're talking about $5-6K per cabinet. L'acoustics are not expensive at all with aggressive discounts from dealers. I don't know if Fulcrum sounds better than the other 2 to justify the cost (over $1000 difference). I don't know. I'm stilling searching and debating myself. Another option, maybe a superior one, is Fulcrum DX1295 with Linea Research 44M10 amp. I heard that's even better than the FA22AC with the Powersoft module in the back. I'm not looking to save a few bucks, I'm just saying. I'm looking for the best sound I can afford and of course this is tough to do. Anybody that have heard X12 vs Fulcrum and can offer some perspectives let me know. Maybe it will come down to them 2, Meyer just doesn't have enough juice until you go UPQ-1P.
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I'd look harder at Fulcrum DX12xx and DSP amp instead of self powered - that amp module is very pricey without any real value other than - you get to run twice as many cables per speaker. Also look at TW Audio T24N if you need more output, although it is more expensive than DX12xx.
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I’ve heard many of the boxes and there’s a lot of great choices here. Would still take SH50/SM60F/SM96 over all the mentioned so far. If you want to carry less boxes give the SM80F a look. Good luck.
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Hi Tom,
What kind of coverage are you looking for?
Pretty much all the boxes noted here sound very good to excellent on-axis.
For some of them, off-axis just isn't the same.
Are you working venues with good acoustics?
If you work any that have mediocre acoustics, the bigger, horn-loaded boxes are
going to be better for putting sound where you want, and not on the walls/ceiling.
Danley would be my first choice, and the bigger KV2 boxes second.
Thanks and good health, Weogo
I’ve heard many of the boxes and there’s a lot of great choices here. Would still take SH50/SM60F/SM96 over all the mentioned so far. If you want to carry less boxes give the SM80F a look. Good luck.
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Did you not look at the Newer Nexo ID10? Specs seem to be right where you want them. They sounded nice at NAMM and Infocom.
I'm still search for a system. The water is quite muddy at this top tier. I'm looking at L'acoustics X12, Meyer UPJ-1P,Fulcrum FA22AC. I have eliminated Adamson and Nexo out of contention. d&b is also eliminated due to excessive cost.. . .
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I'm still search for a system. The water is quite muddy at this top tier. I'm looking at L'acoustics X12, Meyer UPJ-1P,Fulcrum FA22AC. I have eliminated Adamson and Nexo out of contention. d&b is also eliminated due to excessive cost. To my surprise, Fulcrum is the most expensive of them 3! Now we're talking about $5-6K per cabinet. L'acoustics are not expensive at all with aggressive discounts from dealers. I don't know if Fulcrum sounds better than the other 2 to justify the cost (over $1000 difference). I don't know. I'm stilling searching and debating myself. Another option, maybe a superior one, is Fulcrum DX1295 with Linea Research 44M10 amp. I heard that's even better than the FA22AC with the Powersoft module in the back. I'm not looking to save a few bucks, I'm just saying. I'm looking for the best sound I can afford and of course this is tough to do. Anybody that have heard X12 vs Fulcrum and can offer some perspectives let me know. Maybe it will come down to them 2, Meyer just doesn't have enough juice until you go UPQ-1P.
If you are looking for a lower cost box that's still in the top tier, the EV Xi-1122A with the FIR tuning sounds excellent.
It's an older workhorse but seems like it might be a good fit for you. The new JBL F12 may be similar but there are likely far less on the used market as it's only been around a couple years.