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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Jonathan Betts on April 07, 2015, 02:53:16 PM
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Does anyone have a extra pair they would be willing to sell or know of anyone that may have them available? They are out of production at the moment.
Thanks
http://bt-12.com/about.php
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Best of luck in your search. I don't think I've ever seen one offered for sale, used, on ebay, the marketplace, or elsewhere...people tend to hang on to these rare and useful items. BTW - shouldn't this be in the Marketplace as a WTB, rather than LAB Lounge?
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I'd like a pair too. They are supposed to be available again in the fall. In the mean time, I'll get a pair of these:
http://www.parts-express.com/km-19674-heavy-duty-ring-lock-speaker-stand-tilt-adapter-up-to-15-tilt--242-7732
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I'd like a pair too. They are supposed to be available again in the fall. In the mean time, I'll get a pair of these:
http://www.parts-express.com/km-19674-heavy-duty-ring-lock-speaker-stand-tilt-adapter-up-to-15-tilt--242-7732
I have a pair of these. They are decent but just under the load rating of my SM 80.
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What makes the BT-12's better than the K&M's?
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What makes the BT-12's better than the K&M's?
They maintain the Center Of Gravity and so keep the load balanced throughout the full range of adjustment. There's more, but that's the gist.
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They maintain the Center Of Gravity and so keep the load balanced throughout the full range of adjustment. There's more, but that's the gist.
Thanks Dick - so would the K&M's be risky to use with something like my DSR's?
I do miss the tilting option on these speakers. I used to use it from time to time on the PRX's.
Does anyone here use tilters with the DSR's???
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Thanks Dick - so would the K&M's be risky to use with something like my DSR's?
I do miss the tilting option on these speakers. I used to use it from time to time on the PRX's.
Does anyone here use tilters with the DSR's???
DSR's should be fine, but they will put some torque on the pole going into the sub (if that's how you are using it).
BTW, do a search. Those K&M tilters have been on amazon for 15 bucks each for the longest time. I bought a pair years ago.
These tops are maybe 40-45 pounds. The tilt was about halfway (which would be 7.5 degrees iirc). I didn't want to go much farther because these subs just have a simple steel top hat for the pole. Not super strong. The pole and weight distribution were fine. I was just worried about pulling the pole socket out of the sub....
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b376/HiSPL/BC65EC2F-498A-499F-ACB6-9D20AE43A5A9-7266-000004F279FCB8BB.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/HiSPL/media/BC65EC2F-498A-499F-ACB6-9D20AE43A5A9-7266-000004F279FCB8BB.jpg.html)
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I have been searching online and I cant find anything less than $56 each for the basic tilter which seems a bit high. However, if I am getting something strong and reliable I don't mind too much.
I am sure I have seen them cheaper than this but I can't find any right now…
I'll be using the 20mm threaded pole in the sub and also tripod. I don't want to put lot of stress on the threaded sub insert. The stand would be OK - nice and strong with legs wide for stability. I'd also only tilt a small amount - maybe 10 deg max.
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There is a Yorkville tilter - very basic, 15 degree tilt only and no adjustment but only $5. I'd like to find something in between $5 and $56…. I might get a couple of the cheapies and see how they work.
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The K&Ms are still worth $56. If you are patient, maybe they will show up again cheap. The were something like $20 for over a year from Amazon direct. I also have some 15 degree fixed K&Ms that I used toilet shims to change the angle. The Toilet Shim idea was from Dick or Mac or someone else here. Worked OK, but I prefer the variable tilt of the 19670s.
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There is a Yorkville tilter - very basic, 15 degree tilt only and no adjustment but only $5. I'd like to find something in between $5 and $56…. I might get a couple of the cheapies and see how they work.
I got these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WB6N12/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
K&M w/o the cam lock.
Actually will be using them in the field for the first time this Saturday in an old highly reverberant church sanctuary. Going to use a laser pointer for some precise aiming. I'll try and remember to get some pics.
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Perhaps K&M monitors the availability of the BT-12's and prices accordingly?
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Perhaps K&M monitors the availability of the BT-12's and prices accordingly?
Yes, since the BT-12s are much more expensive.
I once had tilters at 15 degrees. Way too much for any normal use. The 7.5 degree tilt of the K12s is pretty much right on.
I would like BT-12s for my ZXa5s.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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I have a pair of BT-12. I mostly use them with RCF TT-25A (15"+1.5", 33 kg). The BT swing movement doesn't seem to match the actual COG, so I don't tilt the boxes more than 6-8 degrees, especially when the box is on a pole over subwoofer. With smaller boxes like RCF 310A or Yamaha DSR112, I tilt them to 12 degrees if needed.
I use them almost always - tilting really helps when playing from choir lofts downwards, in a too live rooms or outdoors when the speakers are on a lift at 3 m.
They were quite pricey, but I am happy with them. The simpler version may work (I will most probably buy a pair for smaller speakers one day), but for bigger angles the speaker can trip over...
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I would like BT-12s for my ZXa5s.
I find the EV strongarm mount works well for the ZXA5. Invert it and attach a K&M pole adaptor with 10mm bolt.
(http://audiopyle.com/strongarm-front.jpg) (http://audiopyle.com/strongarm-side.jpg)
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I got these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WB6N12/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
K&M w/o the cam lock.
Actually will be using them in the field for the first time this Saturday in an old highly reverberant church sanctuary. Going to use a laser pointer for some precise aiming. I'll try and remember to get some pics.
These are the ones at $56 that I was referring to - the ones with the cam lock are almost $100 each.
If the nicer ones were $56 - I'd grab them…
Darn….
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That looks great Mike! I had been looking at the strong arm for my ZXA5's but never thought about inverting them. And here I was pricing out things to hang it from!
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I find the EV strongarm mount works well for the ZXA5. Invert it and attach a K&M pole adaptor with 10mm bolt.
(http://audiopyle.com/strongarm-front.jpg) (http://audiopyle.com/strongarm-side.jpg)
Hey mike, great idea. What is the part name/number from EV?
Send me a message with prices for both parts please.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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These are the ones at $56 that I was referring to - the ones with the cam lock are almost $100 each.
If the nicer ones were $56 - I'd grab them…
Darn….
Occasionally the ring-lock version (p/n 19674) will drop below $40 each. There are browser plugins and websites that will allow you to set a price alert - set one up and be prepared to jump quickly when they do, as it never lasts long.
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Occasionally the ring-lock version (p/n 19674) will drop below $40 each. There are browser plugins and websites that will allow you to set a price alert - set one up and be prepared to jump quickly when they do, as it never lasts long.
Thanks Brian- good idea. However, Mike Pyle already offered me a great deal on a pair and they are on their way. Looking forward to being able to tilt again!
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The 7.5 degree tilt of the K12s is pretty much right on.
A very clever and useful device on the K series.
Wish more speakers had them.
We experimented and found the 7deg tilt is pretty much all that is needed.
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A very clever and useful device on the K series.
Wish more speakers had them.
We experimented and found the 7deg tilt is pretty much all that is needed.
I agree- I own a couple of K10's and I love what QSC did to these speakers to enable tilt. Very nice feature. The JBL's have the 2 holes which works also but sometimes you can pop the speaker on the stand using the wrong hole.....I hope I didn't just open myself up to any naughty references there! ;)
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I got these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WB6N12/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
K&M w/o the cam lock.
Actually will be using them in the field for the first time this Saturday in an old highly reverberant church sanctuary. Going to use a laser pointer for some precise aiming. I'll try and remember to get some pics.
I'll add pics tomorrow but the laser pointer worked great for working out the correct angle ( I needed only 4 degrees); but one of the speakers kept spinning due to them not being symmetrical. The heavier side kept spinning towards the front. I should have paid the extra money for the ring lock.
Going to try and salvage them by beefing up the the pipe with a couple wraps of tape next time. The speakers I was using were not my normal mains which are symmetrical.
BEGIN EDIT*- I was using a pair of ELX112Ps for this event and they have the monitor angle cut on one side only and the amp sits in diagonally. I'm sure for something symetrical ike the DSR they would work fine.
BTW I aimed them with the laser pointer by taking the speaker up to height then climbed a small ladder and laid the pointer on the top of the speaker. I was aiming for the last pew. This seemed like a logical aiming point to me since my main goal was to reduce reflections from htting the rear wall head on. Started off at 7 degrees, but it that put me only about 2/3 of the way back so I dropped it to 4 degrees and that was spot on. Comments on that technique or the logic used to pick the point are more than welcome.
I found making the correction with the speaker on top nearly impossible, because as you change the angle, you also change the direction of the angle and these particular speakers wanted to swing, which made it hard to tell whether I was increasing or decreasing the angle or which direction the tilter was actually pointing. Couple that with, low lighting and the fact that I couldn't read the angle setting with the speaker on top and I had a very confusing situation. I ended up just pulling the speaker, adjusting the angle and turning the tilter straight and put the speaker back on.
You can see the right speaker turned so much it was almost pointing sideways
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A few anecdotes:
I have the ring lock version. After a year of usage the ring locks are hard (approaching impossible) to loosen with a 53 pound speaker on top. Loosening and tightening is required during the aiming process to keep the speaker from tilting sideways as well as down. Ideally you can set the angle correctly before hoisting the speaker, but I seem to always require some adjustment. When I take them down I disconnect the tilter from the stand and leave it connected to the speaker, until the speaker is on the floor. Then it is easy to loosen the ring lock.
I previously used one wrap of high quality black cloth gaffers tape to snug up a pole going into subwoofers. Then I did an outdoor concert in 110 degree heat and the pole essentially fused into the subwoofer. Took 3 men 10 minutes to break it free. I don't use the tape anymore.
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Great. More stuff I didn't know I needed, but probably do. I don't want to spend $180 on a pair of these things though.
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I have a pair that I paid $22 each for on Amazon which I thought was exceedingly reasonable for a K&M product. I wish I bought two pair!
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I have a pair that I paid $22 each for on Amazon which I thought was exceedingly reasonable for a K&M product. I wish I bought two pair!
I would buy them right now for that price.
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Hi guys,
As mentioned, the next batch of BT-12's should be ready and available around November.
The BT-12 design was upgraded by including a locking mechanism inside the top stem to positively secure the cab seated on the tilter.
This lock will eliminate any wobbling of the cab in cases such as oversized, worn or conical top-hat bore, and will also prevent any horizontal movement or rotation of the cab.
The locking mechanism parts are all metal and it is activated by an easily accessed wing bolt. the design has a built in force doubler so does not need hard tightening to achieve sufficient lock. The operation of the lock is seizure free and will always loosen the grip from the top hat once the tightening knob is released.
The new version will be designated BT-12CL (Cab Lock...)
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag200/nimrod15/63a6d130-c31c-4f6b-b13d-a1d12dec4561_zpswrhxafxq.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/nimrod15/media/63a6d130-c31c-4f6b-b13d-a1d12dec4561_zpswrhxafxq.jpg.html)
Thanks,
N. Webber :)
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Hi Nimrod,
Still enjoying the use of the BT-12 from the original production run. Still nothing like it.
I know the question will come up, so we may as well deal with it now:
Can the cab lock be retrofit to the original BT12? I'm guessing the lock is not a separate apparatus, but "designed in".
frank
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Really looking forward to getting a pair of these when the next batch is ready!
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Hi Nimrod,
Still enjoying the use of the BT-12 from the original production run. Still nothing like it.
I know the question will come up, so we may as well deal with it now:
Can the cab lock be retrofit to the original BT12? I'm guessing the lock is not a separate apparatus, but "designed in".
frank
Hi Frank,
I'm glad to hear that your BT-12's are serving you well.
Unfortunately the cab lock can not be (easily...) retrofitted to the previous version of the BT-12. The lock design involves some holes and a weld that are done to the top stem at the pre-assembly stage. I guess this could be managed by a skilled metal worker or DIY'er but it isn't a simple task for the everyday user...
When I first started thinking and designing the lock, I did try to make it also retrofitable to the previous version of the BT-12. but it was too complicated, compromising and time consuming so I let go of the idea and aimed the design for new units only.
:)
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The Cab Lock tightening knob:
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag200/nimrod15/BT-12CL%20Lock%20Knob%20sm_zpsxpof5lgw.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/nimrod15/media/BT-12CL%20Lock%20Knob%20sm_zpsxpof5lgw.jpg.html)
A glimpse at the Cab Lock insides (ultimately will be covered):
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag200/nimrod15/BT-12CL%20Insides%20sm_zpsbcal7ie0.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/nimrod15/media/BT-12CL%20Insides%20sm_zpsbcal7ie0.jpg.html)
:)
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What a great product and one I hope to purchase when available.
How long do you think it will take for Behringer to "borrow" the design and start making it in China?
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How long do you think it will take for Behringer to "borrow" the design and start making it in China?
The basic design is out there for about 5 years now. If they only wanted they would have done it a long time ago.
But if they did...
It would probably be named EuroTilt 4000 Pro...
It would somehow develop electronic or software issues...
It would probably break after a year or if loaded 10gr over the rated weight limit ;)
This is the Cab Lock plunger (in collapsed position):
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c360/boniton/BT12/BT-12CL%20Lock%20Plunger.jpg) (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/boniton/media/BT12/BT-12CL%20Lock%20Plunger.jpg.html)
:)
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Nice - I want a pair. When will you be accepting orders?
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Nice - I want a pair. When will you be accepting orders?
Please follow the directions on the BT-12's ordering page: http://bt-12.com/prices.php (http://bt-12.com/prices.php)
:)
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Hi Nimrod, the ordering page on your site just shows that they are back ordered and that the cost hasn't been set.
Do you want to set up a pre-order list?
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Yeah, not meaning to nit pick, but I would like to know the cost prior to ordering.
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Yeah, not meaning to nit pick, but I would like to know the cost prior to ordering.
Prices are up (actually down a little...) http://bt-12.com/prices.php
:)
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Finally...
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag200/nimrod15/BT-12CL%20Painted%20Closup_zpsilt5yqkm.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/nimrod15/media/BT-12CL%20Painted%20Closup_zpsilt5yqkm.jpg.html)
I updated all who were on my wait list. If I missed anyone please email me.
Thanks,
Nimrod Webber
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I'm currently working on a simpler speaker tilter. It won't be quite as handy as the one discussed here, more of a pre-set method.
When I get the final prototype done, I'll post it.
It probably won't be for a month or two.
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Yes! Shipping soon I hope?
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Mine arrived this morning.
Thank you
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Mine arrived on Thursday. Won't get to try them until mid-January.
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Just did my first show with SM 80 pole mounted to a TH 118. Very easy to adjust and like the laser pointer option. Great product!
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Mine arrived on Saturday. I'll try them tomorrow with my Fulcrum Acoustic FA22AC.
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Got my new ones and used them with SRX 712's. What a great product!
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Mine arrived on Saturday. I'll try them tomorrow with my Fulcrum Acoustic FA22AC.
I'm waiting on mine and will be using them with the same speakers. Let us know how it goes.
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Mine arrived today. Here it is with my SLS 920.
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It looks like the GC on the Community is a bit higher than the typical 2 way. How much pressure forward does it put on the pole?
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It looks like the GC on the Community is a bit higher than the typical 2 way. How much pressure forward does it put on the pole?
That's a big ass speaker to put on a tripod at 70 lbs. I thought the FA22ac was big at 60 lbs.
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It looks like the GC on the Community is a bit higher than the typical 2 way. How much pressure forward does it put on the pole?
It sits nice on the BT-12 to about 8-9 degrees. Any further and the CG is forward of the pivot and will slide to 12 degrees on its own. It is still much less pressure than with other tilters. I'm very happy with it. I think it will work well until I can get my SM80s
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Better than with the K&M's I bet!
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It sits nice on the BT-12 to about 8-9 degrees. Any further and the CG is forward of the pivot and will slide to 12 degrees on its own. It is still much less pressure than with other tilters. I'm very happy with it. I think it will work well until I can get my SM80s
The thread array in the SLS920 that takes that external top hat seem to be located inline with the cab's COG which is perfect for normal/vertical use.
When the cab is tilted, the added height results in a substantial shift of the COG which loads different parts of the tilter and stand assembly, including the base (top hat or thread attachment on the sub). This loading may be beyond what they were designed for.
Although the cab's weight is nicely within the load limit of the BT-12, that rough behavior of the tilter in the higher angles is definitely a sign that the COG height in this setup is way higher then the range that the tilter is designed for (between 200 and 370mm (8" – 14.5") from the bottom of the cab, when resting on the rubber foot).
:)
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I wonder how it will work on the SRX 835P?
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I have repeatedly put hpr152's on mine on top of ts99s at the minimum height. Yes the center of gravity moves forward but not excessively. I just make sure the CG is directly over one leg of the tripod ( the ts99 have a wider base) and everything is as stable as any usual tripod setup.
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I wonder how it will work on the SRX 835P?
Should be ok. I see no mention in the specs of the COG height, but with the amp located at the bottom of the cab, the woofer being double ferrite and both mid and high drivers are neodymium, I estimate the COG is around 2/5 of the total height which comes to 390mm. That is just over the top range of the recommended COG height. Tilt ahead...
:)
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To find the actual center of gravity is quite easy.
Lay the speaker face up or down on a 2x2 board.
Move it until it balances and you have the CG in one plane (it is on the vertical line from the balance point).
We can assume that the speaker manufacturers put the pole mount under the CG in the other relevant plane.
The intersection of these two lines is the CG point.
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To find the actual center of gravity is quite easy.
Lay the speaker face up or down on a 2x2 board.
Move it until it balances and you have the CG in one plane (it is on the vertical line from the balance point).
We can assume that the speaker manufacturers put the pole mount under the CG in the other relevant plane.
The intersection of these two lines is the CG point.
+1
But for the sake of the subject on hand, only the height of the COG (point) is relevant.
Here is a sketch I made once of how to find a cab's COG height:
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag200/nimrod15/balancing_zpssvqes8jy.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/nimrod15/media/balancing_zpssvqes8jy.jpg.html)
:)
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Both axes do matter to the extent that you want a neutral vertical or compressive load on the support stand with no moments in any other directions. Ideally any tilting would be done about the CG of the box.
The first time I flew my DSRs I was really disappointed that the top flypoints were so off the vertical CG. It took a lot of pull back force to tilt them down. I had rated spansets and shackles on the front points to hold them up and planned to just use trick line to aim them. I ended up doubling the trick line just to feel sure that nothing would come loose and cause them to swing upwards. Next time it's steel cable.
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Both axes do matter to the extent that you want a neutral vertical or compressive load on the support stand with no moments in any other directions. Ideally any tilting would be done about the CG of the box.
That is correct. But usually the top hat location is a given (unless it is DIY-added to a cab) and is assumed to be inline (or as practically close as possible) with the COG.
So when considering tilting using the top hat, the only parameter that is 'left' to be checked is the COG height, as it determines the arc that the top hat will draw (about the COG) and thus the amount of the COG shift that will develop. That distance should be compensated by the tilter in order to keep the cab properly balanced on the pole.
This is exactly what the BT-12 does, but because it is true only for a specific range of COG heights (by design), the COG height of a cab should be checked to insure that it is within that range and so will be correctly balanced when tilted by the BT-12.
:)
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(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/19/22b5ff79af50a2dfe7ca666ff09ecd27.jpg)
Here are the tilters under my SPL
Runts.
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