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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => The Basement => Topic started by: Nathan Riddle on May 02, 2018, 10:47:35 AM
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Time to resurrect this thread for some more questions :)
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1) What does it mean when a client is adamant about going with me/my services before ever seeing a quote and it is a cold call? ([client not sure what they are getting themselves into with production]. Okay... thanks for the details, we'll get you a quote within a week for your event. You should look into some other quotes and ideas though. Naw, I wanna go with you guys!)
2) What is the standard cross-rental supercharge to a client? (ItemA - Company A: 100$ to company B. Company B: $200 to client)
3) What is a/the standard markup for subcontracting a fellow company to a part of the gig (sound, lights, video, staging). (Eg. Ray providing sound for a festival for another company's gig)
4) Working with Government/Chapels. Any tips?
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Time to resurrect this thread for some more questions :)
Not answering Nathan's questions here, but something that another thread brought to mind is that contracts go two ways. Your client bears more responsibility than just cutting you a check. I'd typically expect a client to provide adequate power, correctly wired; space to unload; space to set up; etc. Whatever the client is supposed to provide to support what you provide should be mentioned in the contract. The client also needs to understand what will be placed where; we don't have invisible loudspeakers.
If those things aren't in the contract, then they can come back to bite you. If you get there and the power is incorrectly wired or outright dangerous, if your contract doesn't specify what power you need, you may have little recourse. If it's all in the contract, maybe you will be able to force your client to make repairs or walk away and still get paid. (Unless you're bringing in a generator, the venue or client is ALWAYS responsible for providing adequate power. It's advisable to have the contract specify power requirements either way.)
Same goes for weather: that should be part of the contract too. How you will be compensated if the show is shut down? Who is responsible for calling the show for what kind of weather event and when?
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Time to resurrect this thread for some more questions :)
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1) What does it mean when a client is adamant about going with me/my services before ever seeing a quote and it is a cold call?
2) What is the standard cross-rental supercharge to a client? (ItemA - Company A: 100$ to company B. Company B: $200 to client)
3) What is a/the standard markup for subcontracting a fellow company to a part of the gig (sound, lights, video, staging). (Eg. Ray providing sound for a festival for another company's gig)
4) Working with Government/Chapels. Any tips?
Nathan,
1) Either the client got a glowing referral from one of your clients (in which case either the new "client" or old client would probably have informed you) or is bogus.
2)Deals must be negotiated depending on supply and demand. If both companies have similar rate schedules and inventories, a blanket % deal may be cut after a working relationship has been established. Remember that "companies" can trash gear just as individuals do.
3) Again, "standards" need to be established, but generally would be more in the "commission" range of 10-20%.
4) Stipulate hourly fees, additional billing for "change order" meetings, and additional charges for payments made past a specific date.
Make sure the contract is signed by a person with authority for the expenditure.
Art
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1) What does it mean when a client is adamant about going with me/my services before ever seeing a quote and it is a cold call?
If they're offering to "over pay" you with a cashier's check and have you pay back the difference, RUN AWAY!
Do your research on the client. Maybe they're been turned down by all other local providers?
If they are truly "first timers", proceed with caution. I just came across that very situation and the perspective Client didn't know what he didn't know. I'm more than happy to provide Consulting Services in addition to Sound Reinforcement, but expect fair compensation for both. Instead, because of an unrealistic budget (compared to expectations) it's someone else's challenge now.
Dave
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Time to resurrect this thread for some more questions :)
ACK! WHY?!? It takes a lot of time... haha.
1) What does it mean when a client is adamant about going with me/my services before ever seeing a quote and it is a cold call? ([client not sure what they are getting themselves into with production]. Okay... thanks for the details, we'll get you a quote within a week for your event. You should look into some other quotes and ideas though. Naw, I wanna go with you guys!)
BEST PLACE TO BE, for the most part. They've heard good things about you, and more importantly, they know and understand the value of good production and they trust that you're going to treat them well. To be candid, I would never suggest that they look into other production providers unless you either a) don't want to do the show / get the client, b) it's just more than you can handle properly, and you're prefer that they are taken great care of, or c) you're afraid that for some reason they're going to screw you on the show. They've called you. They found your name and telephone number. They're eager to work with you- unless you get weird vibes about it, build the relationship!
It's all about the relationship.
2) What is the standard cross-rental supercharge to a client? (ItemA - Company A: 100$ to company B. Company B: $200 to client)
Totally depends on both parties. I know, not what you expected to hear... If the gear-providing company is small and/or otherwise is losing other business by doing the rental, their rates might be higher. If they're not otherwise busy and it's a few days before the show, they may take a bit less because "otherwise the gear is just sitting here this weekend not doing anything." If the company is larger and the gear going out is in low demand or fully depreciated (or both!) then they may cut you a deal regardless of the timing. Either way, set and agree on prices, and stick with them. Or, "Tell me what you can afford for the gear." It works either way- one might be more beneficial than the other- but be consistent. I have companies I work with that it's a set percentage (on either side), some it's "what's your budget?" and sometimes even "I need your console this weekend, but when you want my console later on, let's trade back."
Again, It's all about the relationships.
3) What is a/the standard markup for subcontracting a fellow company to a part of the gig (sound, lights, video, staging). (Eg. Ray providing sound for a festival for another company's gig)
It's common to mention that you should charge enough for the initial show that you can afford to cover it with a sub if, for some reason, you are unable to do it yourself. So, that factors into this price. If it's a "racks-and-stacks" rental, then that gear rental will be discounted, but charge actual rate for the delivery/setup/removal fees as required. If it's a matter of my renting in another company to handle a specific aspect (a stage, or a lighting package, or whatever), then I would expect to pay the gear rental-less-cross-rental-discount, plus the actual labor involved. If a company wants to keep the event under their banner, and wants me to handle the entire production, I will, and will still discount the gear rental. But, I would charge full rate for my labor. Finally, if the other company just "hands" me the show, and I do the billing, etc, direct to the client, then everything would be regular rates/tax. [Some talk about a kick-back to the referring company. To be candid, the "kick-back" I get is the knowledge that the other company trusts me enough to make sure their client is taken care of. We deliver the best service possible, naturally, and this other company knows that I will treat their customer like my own? AWESOME!]
4) Working with Government/Chapels. Any tips?
I got nothing beyond what's been said. haha.
-Ray
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Not answering Nathan's questions here, but something that another thread brought to mind is that contracts go two ways. Your client bears more responsibility than just cutting you a check. I'd typically expect a client to provide adequate power, correctly wired; space to unload; space to set up; etc. Whatever the client is supposed to provide to support what you provide should be mentioned in the contract. The client also needs to understand what will be placed where; we don't have invisible loudspeakers.
If those things aren't in the contract, then they can come back to bite you. If you get there and the power is incorrectly wired or outright dangerous, if your contract doesn't specify what power you need, you may have little recourse. If it's all in the contract, maybe you will be able to force your client to make repairs or walk away and still get paid. (Unless you're bringing in a generator, the venue or client is ALWAYS responsible for providing adequate power. It's advisable to have the contract specify power requirements either way.)
Same goes for weather: that should be part of the contract too. How you will be compensated if the show is shut down? Who is responsible for calling the show for what kind of weather event and when?
Great points Jonathan! I was just modifying my contracts recently to include more of the above verbiage! I too saw that thread on contracts and wanted to add what some others had stated. Very good points.
Nathan,
1) Either the client got a glowing referral from one of your clients (in which case either the new "client" or old client would probably have informed you) or is bogus.
2)Deals must be negotiated depending on supply and demand. If both companies have similar rate schedules and inventories, a blanket % deal may be cut after a working relationship has been established. Remember that "companies" can trash gear just as individuals do.
3) Again, "standards" need to be established, but generally would be more in the "commission" range of 10-20%.
4) Stipulate hourly fees, additional billing for "change order" meetings, and additional charges for payments made past a specific date.
Make sure the contract is signed by a person with authority for the expenditure.
Art
Thanks Art, this is exactly what I needed. Especially the government stuff, bidding on some contracts soon :)
If they're offering to "over pay" you with a cashier's check and have you pay back the difference, RUN AWAY!
Do your research on the client. Maybe they're been turned down by all other local providers?
If they are truly "first timers", proceed with caution. I just came across that very situation and the perspective Client didn't know what he didn't know. I'm more than happy to provide Consulting Services in addition to Sound Reinforcement, but expect fair compensation for both. Instead, because of an unrealistic budget (compared to expectations) it's someone else's challenge now.
Dave
Agreed to your first point!
I didn't think about research, good idea.
Yeah, I've been annoyed with the 'first-timers-syndrome' for a promoter/client; it turns out to be a lot of hand holding. Which is relationship building, but I also don't get paid for all that overtime...
ACK! WHY?!? It takes a lot of time... haha.
Mac probably rolled his eyes when he saw this thread pop-up again :)
He must care a lot about your time... ;)
BEST PLACE TO BE, for the most part. They've heard good things about you, and more importantly, they know and understand the value of good production and they trust that you're going to treat them well. To be candid, I would never suggest that they look into other production providers unless you either a) don't want to do the show / get the client, b) it's just more than you can handle properly, and you're prefer that they are taken great care of, or c) you're afraid that for some reason they're going to screw you on the show. They've called you. They found your name and telephone number. They're eager to work with you- unless you get weird vibes about it, build the relationship!
So I agree with everything you said... if it was a simple cold call to myself. The problem is I always have some weird complicated thing.
My friend/employee has a website with his somewhat functioning business in another city two hours away. He gets all sorts of random calls/emails from people asking for stuff. That's where this client comes from, my friend is asking for me to come up with a quote. So hey it's business, I don't know where the client came from and I'm supposed to provide a quote. I can't be a sub because he doesn't have insurance so I get to be the prime based on virtue...? I don't really know how this all works out between us.Its murky, but it's been working so far thanks to Scott's pushing me to be okay with 'murky' :)
Butttt. A potential client did call me and said she got rave reviews from a client so that worked out exactly how you just described! Woot!
It's all about the relationship.
Totally depends on both parties. I know, not what you expected to hear... If the gear-providing company is small and/or otherwise is losing other business by doing the rental, their rates might be higher. If they're not otherwise busy and it's a few days before the show, they may take a bit less because "otherwise the gear is just sitting here this weekend not doing anything." If the company is larger and the gear going out is in low demand or fully depreciated (or both!) then they may cut you a deal regardless of the timing. Either way, set and agree on prices, and stick with them. Or, "Tell me what you can afford for the gear." It works either way- one might be more beneficial than the other- but be consistent. I have companies I work with that it's a set percentage (on either side), some it's "what's your budget?" and sometimes even "I need your console this weekend, but when you want my console later on, let's trade back."
Again, It's all about the relationships.
It's common to mention that you should charge enough for the initial show that you can afford to cover it with a sub if, for some reason, you are unable to do it yourself. So, that factors into this price. If it's a "racks-and-stacks" rental, then that gear rental will be discounted, but charge actual rate for the delivery/setup/removal fees as required. If it's a matter of my renting in another company to handle a specific aspect (a stage, or a lighting package, or whatever), then I would expect to pay the gear rental-less-cross-rental-discount, plus the actual labor involved. If a company wants to keep the event under their banner, and wants me to handle the entire production, I will, and will still discount the gear rental. But, I would charge full rate for my labor. Finally, if the other company just "hands" me the show, and I do the billing, etc, direct to the client, then everything would be regular rates/tax. [Some talk about a kick-back to the referring company. To be candid, the "kick-back" I get is the knowledge that the other company trusts me enough to make sure their client is taken care of. We deliver the best service possible, naturally, and this other company knows that I will treat their customer like my own? AWESOME!]
-Ray
Naw, that's about how I expected this to go over ;) haha. But yeah that all makes sense. How it's been working out is other shops give me their 'best rate' could be what they give to some clients could be different I don't know. And I charge some percentage on top of that, whatever feels right.
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You're always killing it Ray :)
One day I want to come visit!
I get the opportunity to visit Caleb Dueck up in Chicago in a month, so that's cool!
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Time to resurrect this thread for some more questions :)
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1) What does it mean when a client is adamant about going with me/my services before ever seeing a quote and it is a cold call? ([client not sure what they are getting themselves into with production]. Okay... thanks for the details, we'll get you a quote within a week for your event. You should look into some other quotes and ideas though. Naw, I wanna go with you guys!)
2) What is the standard cross-rental supercharge to a client? (ItemA - Company A: 100$ to company B. Company B: $200 to client)
3) What is a/the standard markup for subcontracting a fellow company to a part of the gig (sound, lights, video, staging). (Eg. Ray providing sound for a festival for another company's gig)
4) Working with Government/Chapels. Any tips?
1 - It means either word got around that you take care of your clients or it means the client is making a decision based on emotion of some kind, could be he likes your logo or your buddy in the other town. Some clients that are "you're gonna be my guy for all this stuff" tend to be "blue sky" clients... because the sky may be the limit but the sky is the only thing they've got...
2 - There is no standard mark up on cross-hired equipment or services. You should charge your normal rate for that item (or substantially similar item). How much should you pay for it? It depends (turning on Digital Crystal Ball, waiting for POST....), but if you're a good sub rental (B2B) client you'll get 50% off our rate card, if you only rent from us once a year you'll get 35% off the card. If the rate to your client is similar to our retail rate card you should be able to make money. Depending on other factors we might be inclined to toss in some extras (tech world pipe and drape, maybe, or some extra AC cabling) or give an additional discount if you come up with a good reason. 8)
3 - Art and Ray have answered this well. My contribution is kind of "ditto to #2". Ideally you bid the whole event in a way that if you had to sub out any substantial portion of it, you'd still make a profit. For events where you know in advance you'll need to partner with other providers you should be making general cost inquiries as part of your due diligence in preparing your bid. The concept of "you need to charge enough that you could replace yourself/company if you had to" is from Dick Rees (how's Duluth, Dick?).
4 - Government contracts are *very* compliance oriented. You'll fill out more forms, attest to more things and generally have more contract administration overhead than you'd imagine. As for chapels (on a US installation of some kind, I presume), talk to the Chaplain (the last person consulted, usually). Your primary contact person may or may not be present where the work is being done.
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As a government employee, who contracts in additional services, I can attest to our high paperwork overhead.
A couple good terms / things to know
A purchase order is a government promise to pay for goods or services. It is generally as good as cash. Most government entities can not pay for services or goods before they are received. Generally - No deposits. Instead a purchase order is issued. After the goods or services are provided AND you invoice us, we will issue you a check. Our default terms are 30 days from date of invoice.
Most often the order of operations will be:
You provide a quote
I provide a contract based on the quote, we negotiate the contract and you sign
You provide proof of general liability naming the town as additional insured.
You provide proof of commercial vehicle liability because your truck will backup to our dock or drive into our park (this one drives me crazy as I can’t see why we require it)
You receive a copy of the signed contract
I submit a requisition and We issue you a purchase order for the services and encumber money to pay you
You provide the services. (The event happens)
You invoice me (I always have to push people on this one - the quote wasn’t sufficient y’all I need an invoice)
I receive on the purchase order indicating the services were received and you get a check. If you setup direct deposit you get your money faster.
I recognize I will pay a premium for the high level of government BS I have to put our vendors through.
I will also say - most of the work that most of the people on this forum do is so far below our formal bid thresholds that I am shocked when I see other municipalities put our bids for this stuff. What an additional waste of time. We follow purchasing rules religiously but voluntarily increasing a workload is just silly. We have a variety of vendors we work with, depending on the event, I may bring in different contractors because they all have different gear and strengths.
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1) is a good problem to have. I wouldn't get too hopped up about it though. As mentioned, they either know who they want, or are pulling you for one. My bet is that if a company has a reasonable and realistic need and they want you that bad, they have already done the shopping and weeding through the muck. Your reputation, their observations and their expectations have been settled by YOU.
2) I am not greedy. I hate playing the money game. I offer all ( competing or not ) vendors a 50% discount on my gear rentals. I expect the same in return and in return, I will only charge the same $ as they do for said gear to the client. I will add time into the labor if it is needed. My hope is that there is no need to up-charge for something that doesn't need to be. If you can't be happy making 1/2 the $ on something you didn't have to purchase for your inventory, then you are just greedy. If I am charged full pop for a rental, I simply charge that rate plus any amount of time as required to acquire that rental. If company B really feels it necessary to gouge the client, then let them dig their own grave. When my client ask why a unit cost X, I will have a clean conscience.
3) Again there should be no need to mark things up. I think a finders fee is appropriate and that 10-20% is exceptable. If I am going to hire out and I know I will, I will do it for the price I would expect to be paid for with zero discounts. A price I know that anyone in the area would be doing it for. When I hire out, I will of course try and get the cost to below or at least that dollar amount. I may even shop around first to see where my window is. I would expect to pay as much as receive a finders fee. I would expect to see between a 10-20% margin, with 20% being more typical. As mentioned on point number 2, I will offer a 50% discount on gear, but you will pay full pop on my labor. This should fit very well into a 20% margin for just about anyone. I know what I would charge, if I am low balled by another vendor to do a job on their behalf, I already know they a screwing the pooch.
4) Love or for money eh :) The government typically does not get any discounts for hired work. They are almost always prevailing wage. They demand so many other " discounts " that they can't win them all. Especially since we are paying taxes on that income anyway....... The Government has a buying period that usually peaks in September and the price that is allowed to them is rather cheap in comparison to what you and I pay. So charge them like you deserve it...... They demand the best and make things extremely difficult. You will be working very hard and you should charge as such. It's not that the government is evil, but you will never work harder to earn that money....... As for churches, I tend to go with charity with them. They can make enough money to do anything they want and the government doesn't take a lot of it, but they also do SOOOOO much for your community that you don't even realize. From food banks to even paying for utility bills, they do a lot. I am not religious, but you won't catch me dead trying to gilp ever last penny out of them. Treat them as a community services client. They have nothing, so try and not take anymore than your willing to give.
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They demand the best and make things extremely difficult. You will be working very hard and you should charge as such. It's not that the government is evil, but you will never work harder to earn that money....... As for churches, I tend to go with charity with them. They can make enough money to do anything they want and the government doesn't take a lot of it, but they also do SOOOOO much for your community that you don't even realize. From food banks to even paying for utility bills, they do a lot. I am not religious, but you won't catch me dead trying to gilp ever last penny out of them. Treat them as a community services client. They have nothing, so try and not take anymore than your willing to give.
I do try to charge all clients the same rate. Often a bureaucrat may attend one of those churches or service organizations and wonder at their day-job why your contract is so much higher than their charity one on the weekend.
So everyone generally gets the same base-rate but I itemize all the "red-tape" costs on top of that -anything that adds hours and aggravation gets listed so that when placed side-by-side with any other of my invoices anyone can clearly see why one is so much higher than another.
This may apply a bit more to my kind of rural "everybody knows everybody" area more than huge cities or federal gov't but it's a good practice as it still forces you to reconcile all those little details that eat away hours.
And always remember that your accepted government bid, contract and invoice gets filed-away and is now public knowledge forever.
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Hey Craig!!!! How ya doin?
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Hey Craig!!!! How ya doin?
For some reason I thought it would be helpful to provide some advice in this thread on a subject I've failed miserably at over the years (running a business)
Actually considering firing-up a sound-co again up here in the few non-snow months we get every summer but wondering if it's even possible with gear as old as mine!
(Been meaning to look you up every time I'm in LA, but rarely ever get past the Conejo grade anymore, let alone all the way to SB!)
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Please do. I have been traveling a ton lately. Only been home about 4-5 weeks since the first of the year! Been a really busy boy.
I should qualify that point #4 wasn't meant to read gouge the Gov't for every dollar you can, but more, that you should charge full pop, diligently and fairly. If you don't, you will wish you had. The payment structure is weird and there always seems to be another finance or accounts payable department you have to go through. Billing and payments is typically net 30, so you work today and wait a month after you send the bill to get monies. It is just not as fun is all.
As for churches and other supposed non profit type organizations, trying to account for every penny is not wrong, but just sorta grimey I guess. While charging the same price to all clients is probably the ideal method, at least with giving a break to churches and non profits you can write off the donation and or " Loss " on you r taxes to sort of re-acquire that money. I won't say I have a bleeding heart, but I hate to take from organizations that really only give.
Craig. If you sell what you got, you could probably re-acquire enough of a small rig to get the ball rolling. No one cares what subs you have it seems. An X-32 is widely excepted by even top tier clients and the market is on the upward swing. I am killing it this year and its only looking better!!!!
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A reminder about churches and charities from previous similar threads, charge them the same rate you charge everyone else, THEN make a donation back to them if you so choose. That way you have a paper trail to keep the accountant happy and your other customers don't have anything to complain about.
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Disclaimer: I AM NOT AN ACCOUNTANT NOR A TAX LAWYER.
Typically, according to what I am familiar with regarding IRS rules and regulations, you cannot write-off (edit: I said "donate" previously instead of "write-off") the "value of service" (i.e. your labor charge(s)) as a donation. You MAY be able to write-off (edit again: I said "donate" previously here instead of "write-off") the "value of gear rental;" I have heard mixed messages on that point.
The safest, fool-proof method, is to charge your full prices and, as John mention, write a donation check back to the organization. This way, you have a paper trail, "in writing with known value" donation being made. [The problem with "value of services" or "value of gear rental" donations is that the IRS could try to dispute the stated value of those donated services or gear rentals. With a check written, it's very clear as to what the donation was valued at. Bonus points is that the organization sees the TRUE cost of the services/gear provided.]
-Ray
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Disclaimer: I AM NOT AN ACCOUNTANT NOR A TAX LAWYER.
Typically, according to what I am familiar with regarding IRS rules and regulations, you cannot donate the "value of service" (i.e. your labor charge(s)) as a donation. You MAY be able to donate the "value of gear rental" as I have heard mixed messages on that point.
The safest, fool-proof method, is to charge your full prices and, as John mention, write a donation check back to the organization. This way, you have a paper trail, "in writing with known value" donation being made. [The problem with "value of services" or "value of gear rental" donations is that the IRS could try to dispute the stated value of those donated services or gear rentals. With a check written, it's very clear as to what the donation was valued at. Bonus points is that the organization sees the TRUE cost of the services/gear provided.]
-Ray
I think you have it backwards, Ray. One *might* be able to deduct the value of goods provided as one has a price list (in theory) that reflects the value. Labor? Probably not or half the volunteers in the USA would try to deduct the value of their efforts.
HOWEVER - our accountant is a former IRS auditor who told us in no uncertain terms if we want to survive an audit over charitable deductions those deductions better have a receipt and cancelled cheque and that in-kind donations would almost certainly be disallowed.
My point is that HoW clients don't get a discount or donation. Why should they? What makes them an exception to anyone not a member of that church? We do discount certain *events* held by churches that are community outreach rather than proselytizing, but those are few.
Ditto for charities... the boss favors things that make life better for children and youth but they pay typical rates for their events and the boss makes donations according to his desires (see first paragraph).
For those with soft spots for specific NFPs... ask yourself why you're being asked to do a gig for free or substantially discounted when the staff of the organization isn't volunteering. Not being a dick, but if this "cause" is sufficiently important and life-altering why isn't *everyone* donating their time, efforts and good will? The answer is "staff has to provide for their families, too." That works both ways... why should YOU give away a gig when your family needs food on the table, mortgage payments made, and baby needs new shoes, too?
Komen? ACS? They can pay full rate, as much as I hate cancer.
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Re-read my post. I think you might have reversed my comments via-a-vis "value of services" and "value of gear rental." :)
Regarding "In-Kind donations," based on the above points-of-view, any time I've given an "in-kind discount" for whatever reason.... it doesn't go on the books. In other words, I just charge less for that show. I DO track discounts for whatever reasons (cash discounts for community sponsorships, or new client discounts, or whatever) but for the most part, I'm just "charging less" for the show, instead of "making a donation."
-Ray
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I'm working on some numbers for that big potential client.
Is it customary to add a discount for multiple gigs throughout a summer/fall season?
Large event (~$5k) with 10 summer gigs and 5 fall gigs.
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I'm working on some numbers for that big potential client.
Is it customary to add a discount for multiple gigs throughout a summer/fall season?
Large event (~$5k) with 10 summer gigs and 5 fall gigs.
Are they contracting and submitting down payment on them as a single transaction? Or are you thinking of giving a discount on one in hopes of getting them all? Big difference.
Do your costs go down if hired for the lot, IE it allows you to buy rather than sub-rent items?
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Are they contracting and submitting down payment on them as a single transaction? Or are you thinking of giving a discount on one in hopes of getting them all? Big difference.
Do your costs go down if hired for the lot, IE it allows you to buy rather than sub-rent items?
All or nothing. It doesn't make sense for them to have multiple providers, either I do it all summer or not.
Yes.
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Also, I'm being smart and doing my research on ticket pricing vs production pricing.
What is the typical production percentage of the ticket price?
Should have searched first...
https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,75187.msg684540.html#msg684540
So 25% (what I came up with) of the ticket price($15 for 1500 people) is going to be way too much.
I do like this thread. Keep the discount to the end.
https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,86082.msg787131.html#msg787131
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I'm working on some numbers for that big potential client.
Is it customary to add a discount for multiple gigs throughout a summer/fall season?
Large event (~$5k) with 10 summer gigs and 5 fall gigs.
Nathan, one thing to keep in mind and I don't know your exact situation. If you know which type or the level of the groups that you are doing and they are all 'like' in requirements, a discount is easy to figure out and I would give an additional 10% of my regular price. That also assumes that all 10 show will happen. However, here is what you get into when you book several shows at a single price and the artist level changes:
Black Oak Arkansas (no additional production cost whatever you have is good as long as it works - non sound person traveling with the group)
Jefferson Starship same as the above - (no I am not siting Starship)
Blue Oyster Cult (line-array, SC-48, there own engineer as well as other requirements)
Dennis DeYoung (line-array, Midas Pro 2 full, extensive light package)
So as you can see, who the artist and depending on what level the artist plays and can demand specific equipment can change the services and price dramatically.
Just things to keep in mind.
Bill
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Nathan, one thing to keep in mind and I don't know your exact situation. If you know which type or the level of the groups that you are doing and they are all 'like' in requirements, a discount is easy to figure out and I would give an additional 10% of my regular price. That also assumes that all 10 show will happen. However, here is what you get into when you book several shows at a single price and the artist level changes:
Black Oak Arkansas (no additional production cost whatever you have is good as long as it works - non sound person traveling with the group)
Jefferson Starship same as the above - (no I am not siting Starship)
Blue Oyster Cult (line-array, SC-48, there own engineer as well as other requirements)
Dennis DeYoung (line-array, Midas Pro 2 full, extensive light package)
So as you can see, who the artist and depending on what level the artist plays and can demand specific equipment can change the services and price dramatically.
Just things to keep in mind.
Bill
Thanks, Bill,
You make good points.
I think this would be standard setup with zero or very little deviation. Perhaps a higher-class band might ask for something special, but I don't think it is typical at this venue to provide those.
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Here are the details/numbers.
Non-Profit is putting the summer concert series on.
$15 ticket or $125 ($8.3 per concert) for a season.
~1500 people attend.
15 concerts.
Median: $17,500
I don't think I can justify charging the 5.9k I came up with from my quote sheet.
Although... it is 3% of my MSRP (plus labor) so that worked out semi-correctly (on the high-end).
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I think this would be standard setup with zero or very little deviation. Perhaps a higher-class band might ask for something special, but I don't think it is typical at this venue to provide those.
In that case, think "out loud". That is, include a clause stating your quote is based on a fixed package and that any additional equipment required by any particular act will result in additional charge (at cost, if you feel that's appropriate).
Dave
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In that case, think "out loud". That is, include a clause stating your quote is based on a fixed package and that any additional equipment required by any particular act will result in additional charge (at cost, if you feel that's appropriate).
Dave
When we bid on a series of concerts we always include the riders as presented to us as part of the bid package, reference them as exhibits, and include language that our fee is based on those documents and that change orders are additional line items on the invoice.
The reality seems to be that entertainers change their minds often, and by the time the show is 2 weeks out... "everything you know, is wrong." :o This often leads to the change orders I mentioned.
We don't want to eat the fee for 8 IEM mixes & 12 receivers when, a week before the show, the band decides to fly in... but other stuff we'll throw in, like extra mic stands for Wireless World, extra stage AC, etc. I don't nickel & dime clients.
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Well, I sent my number to the promoter. We shall see!
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Came across the below today, good stuff.
Quoted with permission; author: Iain Mackie; forum: FB - Danley Sound Labs User Group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1305077852863150/permalink/1915017138535882/?comment_id=1915135551857374&reply_comment_id=1915580931812836&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2311%22%7D)
2 things you need to work out to get to a price per season.
1- how much budget do they have? Not the easiest thing to find out but worth trying, as if you are miles out you aint getting the gig and JBL is cheap on the rental so you need to compete.
2- how much is the gear you are putting in worth to you? is it on finance or have you already paid it off, when my hire gear is still on finance I usually want a bit more of a premium than when it is paid off.
Is there a rate card for rentals in the USA for Danley products? In the UK we have decided that all hire shops do a flat rate which is about 1/75th per day of what you paid new inc your discount.
For long term hires I would normally throw the rate card out the window and work out your total spend on the rig and divide it by 1.5-2 years. so if you spent $80,000 on it for example divide that by 78 and 104 weeks which equates to $1025 over 1.5 years or $769 per week over 2 years per week rental. All Kinna depends but im sure the other companies will be pricing much the same or leaner. Another consideration is how much work you have for the gear when its not the season and after the contract ends. If the answer is not a lot you best get your money back over the course of the contract.
May I ask how many weeks is the season on which they will pay for rental?
Good luck
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The collusion between Danley providers in the UK is illegal here in the USA. Price fixing is taken seriously the USDOJ.
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The collusion between Danley providers in the UK is illegal here in the USA. Price fixing is taken seriously the USDOJ.
Hmm, yes. But generally, everyone has a number it's 1-3%, right?
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Hmm, yes. But generally, everyone has a number it's 1-3%, right?
More or less, depending on season, availability, market location, and client relationship...
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Well, I sent my number to the promoter. We shall see!
Best of luck to you Nathan.
Bill
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Hmm, yes. But generally, everyone has a number it's 1-3%, right?
If I could get 2% I'd be thrilled in ways that would require rubber gloves and a squeegee.
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If I could get 2% I'd be thrilled in ways that would require rubber gloves and a squeegee.
Well stated, but TMI :-X
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Well stated, but TMI :-X
LOL. Art, you have a vivid imagination. 8)
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The collusion between Danley providers in the UK is illegal here in the USA. Price fixing is taken seriously the USDOJ.
I was thinking the same thing vis-a-vis setting prices...
Hmm, yes. But generally, everyone has a number it's 1-3%, right?
Yeah, sorta. Hahaa---- "It Depends."
A Mackie SRM450, let's say it costs $800 MAP at Banjo Hut. But, a dealer buys it for $584 (27% margin). Which number do they calculate from? Either way, 2-3% of $800 is $16 to $24. 2-3% of $584 is $11.68 to $17.52. But, that SRM450 rents pretty much universally for $50. A bit more than 2-3%. [Note, as a Mackie dealer, I am not sharing the actual cost point for a brand new SRM450v3, but the principle still applies.]
Let's take my CL5. It retails for $27,499. 2-3% is $549.98 to $824.97 per day. But that's higher than the rack rates here in the PNW (averaging $495/day).
The "selling price" for any piece of production equipment *should* be what it'll take for it to be paid off in 24 months. But sometimes you set it where it "needs" to be instead of where it "should" be, because otherwise you're never going to rent your gear out.
Back to the actual bid: You should absolutely bid a "standard package" based on the lowest common denominator of any riders you have at the moment, or what the promoter tells you. "This basic package includes 24bx V25, two matching consoles with appropriate split snake, 12 min. 12"/1.5" monitor wedges, and all required amplification and cabling. If an artist requires additional support, we will provide a quote for their requested needs in advance of show for your approval."
-Ray
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Best of luck to you Nathan.
Thanks, Bill, either I spread my wings and fly or I try again :)
LOL. Art, you have a vivid imagination. 8)
Well stated, but TMI :-X
I don't know what you two are talking about. But somewhere Dexter is smiling :P
Yeah, sorta. Hahaa---- "It Depends."
A Mackie SRM450, let's say it costs $800 MAP at Banjo Hut. But, a dealer buys it for $584 (27% margin). Which number do they calculate from? Either way, 2-3% of $800 is $16 to $24. 2-3% of $584 is $11.68 to $17.52. But, that SRM450 rents pretty much universally for $50. A bit more than 2-3%. [Note, as a Mackie dealer, I am not sharing the actual cost point for a brand new SRM450v3, but the principle still applies.]
Let's take my CL5. It retails for $27,499. 2-3% is $549.98 to $824.97 per day. But that's higher than the rack rates here in the PNW (averaging $495/day).
I think the 1-3% figure is in reference to package deals, not dry rentals.
Maybe its some sort of log function??
But I could be mistaken/not understanding everything.
Obviously, there's a lot of wiggle room depending on...well everything.
The "selling price" for any piece of production equipment *should* be what it'll take for it to be paid off in 24 months. But sometimes you set it where it "needs" to be instead of where it "should" be, because otherwise you're never going to rent your gear out.
Back to the actual bid: You should absolutely bid a "standard package" based on the lowest common denominator of any riders you have at the moment, or what the promoter tells you. "This basic package includes 24bx V25, two matching consoles with appropriate split snake, 12 min. 12"/1.5" monitor wedges, and all required amplification and cabling. If an artist requires additional support, we will provide a quote for their requested needs in advance of show for your approval."
-Ray
Thanks, Ray!
Right now it is just 'ballpark' numbers. If the board member likes what I send him then we can talk details and I will definitely make it clear thanks to the invaluable info I have gotten from you/others on this forum :)
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Thanks, Bill, either I spread my wings and fly or I try again :)
Or you fall out of the nest. Relevant because:
I don't know what you two are talking about. But somewhere Dexter is smiling :P
Actually it involves our back dock and the layer of bird droppings that has accumulated this year. I'd spend less time at gigs and doing more "hands on" administration.
I think the 1-3% figure is in reference to package deals, not dry rentals.
Maybe its some sort of log function??
But I could be mistaken/not understanding everything.
Obviously, there's a lot of wiggle room depending on...well everything.
Everything depends. Some items make tons of money, slowly, over time - Ray's Mackie 450 or other speakers on sticks, chain hoists, little powered 'lunchbox' mixers, truss, barricade, pipe & drape - while others never fully recoup let alone deliver a return on investment. Chip Self had a nice post about ROI and these kinds of assets, posted to PSW and now long gone, sadly... Anyway, the point is that if you add up *all* the of the stuff you're taking to gig (not just the big, glamorous bits) it's usually a bigger number than you anticipated. _ insert commercial for Cost Accounting education _ I'd love to get 2%, plus labor and transportation on every gig we do.
Thanks, Ray!
Right now it is just 'ballpark' numbers. If the board member likes what I send him then we can talk details and I will definitely make it clear thanks to the invaluable info I have gotten from you/others on this forum :)
We took in and raised up that Evan K guy in MD and he turned out okay ;) . (google "Harford Sound")
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Or you fall out of the nest. Relevant because:
Actually it involves our back dock and the layer of bird droppings that has accumulated this year. I'd spend less time at gigs and doing more "hands on" administration.
Well it was a guess, I don't actually watch Dexter.
But that makes much more sense.
Everything depends. Some items make tons of money, slowly, over time - Ray's Mackie 450 or other speakers on sticks, chain hoists, little powered 'lunchbox' mixers, truss, barricade, pipe & drape - while others never fully recoup let alone deliver a return on investment. Chip Self had a nice post about ROI and these kinds of assets, posted to PSW and now long gone, sadly... Anyway, the point is that if you add up *all* the of the stuff you're taking to gig (not just the big, glamorous bits) it's usually a bigger number than you anticipated. _ insert commercial for Cost Accounting education _ I'd love to get 2%, plus labor and transportation on every gig we do.
Thanks, Ray!
We took in and raised up that Evan K guy in MD and he turned out okay ;) . (google "Harford Sound")
My Behringer 1ch mixer that I got at a estate sale for 5$ has made me the most money.
That's cool! I'll try to turn out okay too ;)
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Stuff like ATA cases and mounting accessories and such gets written back into the cost basis of the gear, I assume?
Anyway, the point is that if you add up *all* the of the stuff you're taking to gig (not just the big, glamorous bits) it's usually a bigger number than you anticipated. _ insert commercial for Cost Accounting education _ I'd love to get 2%, plus labor and transportation on every gig we do.
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Stuff like ATA cases and mounting accessories and such gets written back into the cost basis of the gear, I assume?
Item-specific accessories like mounts for rear rack rails or fitted cases are treated as part of the item's cost basis since they tend to stay with the item. Utility cases, amp racks, that kind of stuff are all capital assets and I allocate a % of their cost across all equipment for the purpose of estimating shows.
For folks who haven't gotten into cost accounting I can only say it's been a mind-opener for me... and so far I've only read the book (holding off on the U-Tu vids)! "Cost Accounting & Management Essentials You've Always Wanted to Know" 2nd.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0054RGA3A/
Once you know what it actually costs to deliver your services, where those expenses come from... you're in a better position to recover those costs. Also I think it worthy to run monthly financial statements (you DO have an accounting system, even if it's Quicken basic, right?) but that's a future discussion.
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Definitely keeping an eye on your income statement and balance sheet will help you maintain a healthy business structure and show you where you need to focus any remedial efforts.
I think you're the guy who told me a while back to manage my sound business like a business, instead of playing around with audio. It fixed a lot of problems I was having getting started up and running around like an idiot. Really silly that I had to be told that, since I have a degree in finance and knew how to do what I should have been doing already.
I've still got struggles bringing in new business, but I've smoothed out a lot of other stuff and it's allowed me to take advantage of other opportunities to make money.
Item-specific accessories like mounts for rear rack rails or fitted cases are treated as part of the item's cost basis since they tend to stay with the item. Utility cases, amp racks, that kind of stuff are all capital assets and I allocate a % of their cost across all equipment for the purpose of estimating shows.
For folks who haven't gotten into cost accounting I can only say it's been a mind-opener for me... and so far I've only read the book (holding off on the U-Tu vids)! "Cost Accounting & Management Essentials You've Always Wanted to Know" 2nd.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0054RGA3A/
Once you know what it actually costs to deliver your services, where those expenses come from... you're in a better position to recover those costs. Also I think it worthy to run monthly financial statements (you DO have an accounting system, even if it's Quicken basic, right?) but that's a future discussion.
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I think you're the guy who told me a while back to manage my sound business like a business, instead of playing around with audio.
When inventory started creeping into the six digit range I got serious about the transition too. It's more like real work now, though I love the people I work with and the environment. We do a lot of unfun stuff. Way less work with bands, 70% straight out AV work. I make sure we still do fun shows, especially during summer lawn show season. They provide a break from the routing and let us work with the guys we got in the business for. The local bands we work with appreciate us and what we bring to the table and our competence has increased so gigs are stress free.
Having the profitable business gets us the fun gear I love to work on while still delivering a nice return on my investment.
Business skills are universal. Subsidizing non-profitable business taints your mood no matter how much you enjoy doing it.
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A Mackie SRM450, let's say it costs $800 MAP at Banjo Hut. But, a dealer buys it for $584 (27% margin). Which number do they calculate from? Either way, 2-3% of $800 is $16 to $24. 2-3% of $584 is $11.68 to $17.52. But, that SRM450 rents pretty much universally for $50. A bit more than 2-3%. [Note, as a Mackie dealer, I am not sharing the actual cost point for a brand new SRM450v3, but the principle still applies.]
...
Let's take my CL5. It retails for $27,499. 2-3% is $549.98 to $824.97 per day. But that's higher than the rack rates here in the PNW (averaging $495/day).
What I read into this is that, while inexpensive items can rent for 10% or more, expensive items might rent for 1% or less. That makes it tough to "pay off" the expensive items in a reasonable time frame. So, to balance it out, you need a lot of "little item" rentals that have high ROI to subsidize the big-ticket items.
You can probably "pay off" a $10 microphone cable in 5 shows, but it's good for hundreds. That goes toward paying down the $27,000 console that you might never pay off if you only consider the direct rate.
Like spitting in the ocean, "every little bit helps."
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What I read into this is that, while inexpensive items can rent for 10% or more, expensive items might rent for 1% or less. That makes it tough to "pay off" the expensive items in a reasonable time frame. So, to balance it out, you need a lot of "little item" rentals that have high ROI to subsidize the big-ticket items.
You can probably "pay off" a $10 microphone cable in 5 shows, but it's good for hundreds. That goes toward paying down the $27,000 console that you might never pay off if you only consider the direct rate.
Like spitting in the ocean, "every little bit helps."
We have had this discussion before. Basic items have a great ROI. Speakers on a stick, staging, pipe and drape, uplights, distro, gennie etc. You have to have consoles, great wireless, amps, processing too. As long as it is going out together and as Tim said you clearly understand your costs (including depreciation) it's all good. The $20 oil change place uses the same model.
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What I read into this is that, while inexpensive items can rent for 10% or more, expensive items might rent for 1% or less. That makes it tough to "pay off" the expensive items in a reasonable time frame. So, to balance it out, you need a lot of "little item" rentals that have high ROI to subsidize the big-ticket items.
You can probably "pay off" a $10 microphone cable in 5 shows, but it's good for hundreds. That goes toward paying down the $27,000 console that you might never pay off if you only consider the direct rate.
Kindof. The big ticket items are also an "anchor" that can get you a larger show that you might not otherwise get. That's the concept that allowed me to purchase the CL5/Rios, and paying for them. Yeah, I'm in dutch $35k, but it's led to quite a few other events that I wouldn't have otherwise gotten. At the same time, it's also allowed us to increase the quality of production even if it's not being charged "extra" for. In other words, I might send it to a show where a particular A1 is working even if the client didn't pay for it, because this A1 will produce a dramatically better result with it, and the end result is more impressive to the client.
I make the last payment next week (started 2years ago) for the CL5 and Rio3224-D. I am confident that the increased income from owning it has paid for the purchase over the past two years.
-Ray
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Kindof. The big ticket items are also an "anchor" that can get you a larger show that you might not otherwise get. That's the concept that allowed me to purchase the CL5/Rios, and paying for them. Yeah, I'm in dutch $35k, but it's led to quite a few other events that I wouldn't have otherwise gotten. At the same time, it's also allowed us to increase the quality of production even if it's not being charged "extra" for. In other words, I might send it to a show where a particular A1 is working even if the client didn't pay for it, because this A1 will produce a dramatically better result with it, and the end result is more impressive to the client.
I make the last payment next week (started 2years ago) for the CL5 and Rio3224-D. I am confident that the increased income from owning it has paid for the purchase over the past two years.
-Ray
That last bit is Gold
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That last bit is Gold
It's a very fine line to walk. You don't want a client to get the expectation that you're going to send them cooler stuff than they've paid for *every time* --- so some of my clients (when I have a more personal relationship with them) I give them the invoice with "here's the bare minimum you'll get and pay for," but then as an aside, "unless this gets booked for a paying show, you'll probably see it instead of this first thing."
In other words, don't lead your customers to think they're gonna get ULX-D wireless everytime while just paying for ULXP or whatever. :)
-Ray
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It's a very fine line to walk. You don't want a client to get the expectation that you're going to send them cooler stuff than they've paid for *every time* --- so some of my clients (when I have a more personal relationship with them) I give them the invoice with "here's the bare minimum you'll get and pay for," but then as an aside, "unless this gets booked for a paying show, you'll probably see it instead of this first thing."
In other words, don't lead your customers to think they're gonna get ULX-D wireless everytime while just paying for ULXP or whatever. :)
-Ray
If I'm mixing, I'll take an Avid SC48 console even if the budget is M32. I've mixed on Venue series desks for so long and I have Waves 9 for Venue on them. The invoice will still say M32, though.
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Plenty of wedding in my area are getting done with Lectrosonics wireless just because it's easier to use than other things I own.
It's nice to be able to uncharge for nice gear, but it's also nice to use your nice gear to make your life easier.
If I'm mixing, I'll take an Avid SC48 console even if the budget is M32. I've mixed on Venue series desks for so long and I have Waves 9 for Venue on them. The invoice will still say M32, though.
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Plenty of wedding in my area are getting done with Lectrosonics wireless just because it's easier to use than other things I own.
It's nice to be able to uncharge for nice gear, but it's also nice to use your nice gear to make your life easier.
I hope you meant "upcharge," not "uncharge." hahaaa.
But yeah, that's part of it-- using the better gear to simplify life or make it sound freakin' awesome. In Tim's case, if the client is just "we need PA," and he's the mixperson, then he can provide whatever he wants since they're not checking a line item manifest to ensure everything that was ordered is there. [I also recall his state changes the sales tax burden based on if it's a line-item rental or "we're providing a production service, and everything we need is included in this amount, both gear and staffing."]
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Yes to uncharge, no on uncharge.
I've recently moved over to breaking out labor and transportation separately for several reasons.
1) Don't discount labor when giving a price break on rental gear
2) Charge for OT for long events
3) I cover a pretty large swath of land out here and I need to recoup mileage fairly. Especially if I do a drop off and have to drive it twice.
4) Give client a break on sales tax by not rolling labor and freight into a package.
I hope you meant "upcharge," not "uncharge." hahaaa.
But yeah, that's part of it-- using the better gear to simplify life or make it sound freakin' awesome. In Tim's case, if the client is just "we need PA," and he's the mixperson, then he can provide whatever he wants since they're not checking a line item manifest to ensure everything that was ordered is there. [I also recall his state changes the sales tax burden based on if it's a line-item rental or "we're providing a production service, and everything we need is included in this amount, both gear and staffing."]
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Yes to uncharge, no on uncharge.
I've recently moved over to breaking out labor and transportation separately for several reasons.
1) Don't discount labor when giving a price break on rental gear
2) Charge for OT for long events
3) I cover a pretty large swath of land out here and I need to recoup mileage fairly. Especially if I do a drop off and have to drive it twice.
4) Give client a break on sales tax by not rolling labor and freight into a package.
This is essentially what Ray and Tim (among others) helped me come up with in my other "business minded questions" thread.
It has been advantageous for my growth & income :)
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Yes to uncharge, no on uncharge.
I've recently moved over to breaking out labor and transportation separately for several reasons.
1) Don't discount labor when giving a price break on rental gear
This should always absolutely be a rule. A client of mine holds their event at a union house, so we have to use union labor hands. We learned this year that as a 501(c)(3) the client can get a $2/hour discount on the labor rates. It's a published policy that applies to everyone (not "do we like this client's cause or not?") so I'm cool with it. Beyond that... labor is a fixed cost regardless of the event.
2) Charge for OT for long events
Absolutely. I had this discussion just the other day vis-a-vis OT, not getting extra stage hands, etc. Boils down to "if I work a super long day to avoid bringing extra labor on the show, I'm putting money in my client's pocket at the expense of my physical condition."
3) I cover a pretty large swath of land out here and I need to recoup mileage fairly. Especially if I do a drop off and have to drive it twice.
Absolutely. I try to stick with IRS rates, but if it's a larger truck (wherein I have the truck rental expense PLUS mileage charged by the truck company PLUS fuel) then I go higher, up to a buck a mile.
4) Give client a break on sales tax by not rolling labor and freight into a package.
... For those following along at home, always make sure if you make a decision like this, you're still doing things correctly under the auspices of your state's Sales Tax regulations. Pretty much any state you can call their department of revenue/taxation and they'll help you figure out if you're doing things correctly.
-Ray
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Yeah I was talking to the Franchise Tax folks a bunch earlier this year. When I picked up Lectrosonics I started getting some location sound clients who get a big film and broadcast tax credit. The clients knew they got a credit but didn't know what it was, and I called two other location sound speciality shops who knew about the tax break but not what it was exactly. Even the LA film commission couldn't tell me what it was.
A call to the tax board and they got me all sorted with the correct forms for clients takin the credit and the appropriate rate structure. Really made life easy. Had to call back later to figure out how to handle filing my state return, as well.
Also had a nice chat about what they're doing about out of state vendors who keep selling into our state without paying sales tax like they're supposed to.
... For those following along at home, always make sure if you make a decision like this, you're still doing things correctly under the auspices of your state's Sales Tax regulations. Pretty much any state you can call their department of revenue/taxation and they'll help you figure out if you're doing things correctly.
-Ray
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Well, I sent my number to the promoter. We shall see!
Well. I'm too expensive.
I figured as much, but I couldn't figure out how to charge the 'correct' price for the time/work/equipment and come in small enough for them to make money at their fundraiser. The other company is doing it for less than half of my quote (which is 5k). I don't see how they can even pay for labor at that price, but what do I know.
But the relationship is established and we can work together in other areas and they sent me other potential promoters so I'll keep marching on.
Still, it would have been fun to show up with a SH46 rig and blow the K12 wall out of the water ;D
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It's easy to pay for labor if you just pay your guys $10/hour and don't carry any workers comp or liability insurance. Also, showing up with half the equipment needed for the show helps keep costs down.
I just got undercut on a $5k gig next May, where I was nearly giving away the rental and charging full pop for labor. I'm sure a combination of the things above allowed some mobile DJ to beat me out on price.
Doesn't matter because by the time the event owner figures it out the deed will be done.
I think you have to ask yourself whether or not you want clients who are only motivated by price and not quality of service or any other factors. . .
it's been my experience that the clients who demand the lowest price are usually the most easily displeased.
Well. I'm too expensive.
I figured as much, but I couldn't figure out how to charge the 'correct' price for the time/work/equipment and come in small enough for them to make money at their fundraiser. The other company is doing it for less than half of my quote (which is 5k). I don't see how they can even pay for labor at that price, but what do I know.
But the relationship is established and we can work together in other areas and they sent me other potential promoters so I'll keep marching on.
Still, it would have been fun to show up with a SH46 rig and blow the K12 wall out of the water ;D
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it's been my experience that the clients who demand the lowest price are usually ALWAYS the most easily displeased with the results.
Here's the truth....
Chris.
"I want a Super Trooper, but I'll pay for a 5-cell Maglite"
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Thanks for correcting that.
I was out with a busy contractor buddy of mine and we stopped to look at a job on the way to lunch. The customer starts complaining about how the last contractor charged too much and did a lousy job and so he wasn't going to pay the bill.
My buddy started walking to the truck and tells me to come on, let's get lunch.
The customer asks why contractor is leaving and my friend says "Oh, I definitely charge too much and do horrible work, you probably won't like me at all, but this way you won't have to stiff me on the bill."
Here's the truth....
Chris.
"I want a Super Trooper, but I'll pay for a 5-cell Maglite"
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Well. I'm too expensive.
I figured as much, but I couldn't figure out how to charge the 'correct' price for the time/work/equipment and come in small enough for them to make money at their fundraiser. The other company is doing it for less than half of my quote (which is 5k). I don't see how they can even pay for labor at that price, but what do I know.
Nathan,
Just curious how many crew members and work days you're including for these shows? Given local day rates here I could hire 10 guys for $2500 for a single day's work. I'm thinking a sole proprietor not paying for workman's comp could hire 3 freelance crew members and still pocket $1750 before expenses. Not saying that's the right way to do it, just understanding how someone could do it for $2500.
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Nathan,
Just curious how many crew members and work days you're including for these shows? Given local day rates here I could hire 10 guys for $2500 for a single day's work. I'm thinking a sole proprietor not paying for workman's comp could hire 3 freelance crew members and still pocket $1750 before expenses. Not saying that's the right way to do it, just understanding how someone could do it for $2500.
9a-5p 8 Supervisor (Day Rate, 10 HRS) $38.00 $380.00
9a-5p 8 Crew Chief (Day Rate, 10 HRS) $34.00 $340.00
9a-5p 8 Stagehand - General @ 28/hr (Minimum, 4 HRS) $28.00 $280.00
9a-5p 8 Stagehand - General @ 28/hr (Minimum, 4 HRS) $28.00 $280.00
5p-9p 4 A1 Lead Audio Technician $40.00 $160.00
5p-9p 4 L1 Lead Lighting Technician $40.00 $160.00
9p-1a 4 Load out Labor @ 28/hr (Minimum, 4 HRS) $28.00 $112.00
9p-1a 4 Load out Labor @ 28/hr (Minimum, 4 HRS) $28.00 $112.00
9p-1a 4 Load out Labor @ 28/hr (Minimum, 4 HRS) $28.00 $112.00
9p-1a 4 Load out Labor @ 28/hr (Minimum, 4 HRS) $28.00 $112.00
Total: $2,440
That's pricing to the client.
I'd pay the normal $250/10hr day rate. But this event isn't 10hrs it's about 16hrs.
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Another business question to make sure the thread remains "unending":
How to convince a potential client that you're worth more than their usual guy?
Context: I was approached recently by an organisation that has a 2-day festival with music that I'm very experienced with. Their previous guy did the gig for less than a third of what I've quoted. From the pictures, he brought a pair of EV 100S, a couple of mis-matched wedges, some mics that looked like battered '58s, and some mics that looked cheaper.
I'm sure you get the idea.
The equipment I'd be providing would be a clear step up, but how do I convince the client that it's worth the extra cash?
TIA,
Chris
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I wish I had an answer for you on this. When I first got on this forum and started posting, it was to try to figure out this very problem. How do I convince unexperienced clients who've done show with fly by night provider that a pro company is worth the money.
I still haven't figured that out. The clients still want someone on the cheap.
I ended up trying to do two shows on the cheap and was under crewed on the first one trying to hit budget. The show went badly, including me having a heat casualty because I overexerted myself in 108º heat and was having a heat casualty during line check and sound check. The band refused to play their instruments for a line check and I couldn't even read the screen on my X32 because my eyes wouldn't focus due to heat exhaustion. My brain wasn't thinking clearly and I couldn't nail down some problems with the monitors. It was awful.
The next week I bit the bullet, paid for more crew out of my pocket and had a great show. . .to the point where people came up to me and said they wished I was there the previous week because the sound had been so bad.
I don't think I will even work for that client again. I run into their people at other events I do (it was for a municipality, so they are at all the local chamber event and such). I ended up out of pocket several hundred dollars making things right for the second gig, and I had to call in a couple favors because I didn't get the client to pay me what I needed.
Lesson Learned.
Now, I submit my best quote, and if someone tells me they can get it for less, I just let the gig go.
THere's a drummer guy in the next town town that was going around doing shows with a JBL PRX rig on the cheap. His bandmates would haul his gear for free. People tried to use him to get me to lower my rates and I told them no. That's about all you can do.
Another business question to make sure the thread remains "unending":
How to convince a potential client that you're worth more than their usual guy?
Context: I was approached recently by an organisation that has a 2-day festival with music that I'm very experienced with. Their previous guy did the gig for less than a third of what I've quoted. From the pictures, he brought a pair of EV 100S, a couple of mis-matched wedges, some mics that looked like battered '58s, and some mics that looked cheaper.
I'm sure you get the idea.
The equipment I'd be providing would be a clear step up, but how do I convince the client that it's worth the extra cash?
TIA,
Chris
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Thanks for the insight, Tim.
Well, here's what I did:
Negotiated up to their maximum budget, and booked, with the understanding that I'll get a booking next year (got that in writing) for my full rate. That gives them a year to find the extra money for next time around. I'm not making as much as I'd like this year, so it's a bit of a gamble.
I'm not sure if it was a mistake or not, but if it works as I'd like it to, I've just got myself another annual festival to provide for, and in a quieter time of the year, too.
If it doesn't work out, lesson learnt for next time.
Chris
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Thanks for the insight, Tim.
Well, here's what I did:
Negotiated up to their maximum budget, and booked, with the understanding that I'll get a booking next year (got that in writing) for my full rate. That gives them a year to find the extra money for next time around. I'm not making as much as I'd like this year, so it's a bit of a gamble.
I'm not sure if it was a mistake or not, but if it works as I'd like it to, I've just got myself another annual festival to provide for, and in a quieter time of the year, too.
If it doesn't work out, lesson learnt for next time.
Chris
If i were taking the over/under i'd give you no more than 50/50 shot of getting the full rate booking next year [even in writing]. That doesn't mean it wasn't worth the gamble though. Often losing bets are STILL worth the cost...
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So, why are you worth the additional money?
Not a rhetorical question...
Why are they asking you for a quote?
What do they want to improve from last year?
If they were happy with last year you need to explain why you will make it better. If you can’t, then let it go.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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That seems reasonable, and hopefully you are dealing with a client who wants something nice but doesn't know what it costs or how to acquire it. It would certainly seem that way.
As long as you've charged enough to cover labor and transportation, you can probably afford to gamble the rental income on a future annual booking. I don't think you're losing anything huge, especially if it's an otherwise slow season.
I'd take the gamble.
Thanks for the insight, Tim.
Well, here's what I did:
Negotiated up to their maximum budget, and booked, with the understanding that I'll get a booking next year (got that in writing) for my full rate. That gives them a year to find the extra money for next time around. I'm not making as much as I'd like this year, so it's a bit of a gamble.
I'm not sure if it was a mistake or not, but if it works as I'd like it to, I've just got myself another annual festival to provide for, and in a quieter time of the year, too.
If it doesn't work out, lesson learnt for next time.
Chris
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That seems reasonable, and hopefully you are dealing with a client who wants something nice but doesn't know what it costs or how to acquire it. It would certainly seem that way.
As long as you've charged enough to cover labor and transportation, you can probably afford to gamble the rental income on a future annual booking. I don't think you're losing anything huge, especially if it's an otherwise slow season.
I'd take the gamble.
If I have learned anything in the 5 years I have been building my little production business is clients rarely rise up.
The bands that hire trunk slammers for $300 are unlikely to change what they are doing to realize the value of a production team and realize the additional income to fund it.
Years ago when I left Motorola to work for myself I already had clients and experience and knew how to invoice. Other firms worked for a 1/3 of what we charged, others charged twice as much. I knew my market and who could afford us.
I didn't have the luxury of a reputation in the production business. I was just another schmuck who had a smattering of experience in community theater, HOW and the odd band. Certainly no real touring experience.
If I do a $300 job and end up losing money I don't do a different job. It's an investment in myself and the business.
Slowly we have picked up better clients and leveraged my IT connections for corporate gigs.
I have new higher paying clients and have been shedding the low end business. What I don't have is $300 clients booking $1000 gigs.
Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk
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So, why are you worth the additional money?
Not a rhetorical question...
Why are they asking you for a quote?
What do they want to improve from last year?
If they were happy with last year you need to explain why you will make it better. If you can’t, then let it go.
Reasonable question.
They asked for a quote because their usual guy couldn't do it.
From what I saw of last year's pictures, their usual guy brought a 200w EV PA system from 1993 (link: https://www.electrovoice.com/binary/100M%20EDS.pdf - speakers were mounted sideways), and a hodge-podge of mics and monitors.
I'd be bringing a digital desk, Powersoft amps, and Sennheiser 9-series mics.
If nothing else, I'd expect a serious increase in sound quality and headroom.
Now, I wasn't there at the last event, so it might be the case that this guy could get a truly amazing mix out of that equipment. His desk was behind the speakers, though, so it'd certainly need a lot of walking back and forth to check the mix.
I'll be mixing from an iPad, positioned somewhere sensible.
So, I'm treating this year's event as a paid demo, and we'll see how it goes.
Thanks, all, for chiming in with your thoughts.
Chris
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How to convince a potential client that you're worth more than their usual guy?
So, I'm treating this year's event as a paid demo, and we'll see how it goes.
In my experience (which isn't much) As long as you're making enough money to cover expenses and make you happy (and there isn't a different higher paying event), then do the gig.
I am slowly discovering that the market/clients in my area only want to spend $1000-1500.
I have done plenty of gigs for my bottom dollar (negotiated up for them, down for me) [~$1500 full band & light rig] never once have I gained anything from doing that. No new clients, no return clients, no advertisement, nothing, nada. Had I done it for less, I would not have been happy. One might argue "I'm not using the gear, you should do it for cheap, etc" But I'd rather have the gear sit at home than be underpaid. I have the luxury of a day job so if you have bills to pay... DO ALL THE GIGS.
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I agree 100% that if you take the money for a gig you should deliver the best possible service you can to your clients. There is no other way to do this job.
If I do a $300 job and end up losing money I don't do a different job. It's an investment in myself and the business.
Slowly we have picked up better clients and leveraged my IT connections for corporate gigs.
I have new higher paying clients and have been shedding the low end business. What I don't have is $300 clients booking $1000 gigs.
Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk
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I agree 100% that if you take the money for a gig you should deliver the best possible service you can to your clients. There is no other way to do this job.
I believe in doing the best job possible for the budget the client has set. To over-deliver sets a bad precedent that will be difficult to correct later with that client and if your over-delivery is noticed by other clients there may be some other issues to deal with down the road. See optional story below.
Mini-rant: if I call other production providers to inquire about their prices I might get charged with price fixing or racketeering; if clients call each other they potentially get info useful to their negotiations. /mini-rant
That said, part of my job is to help clients understand where we provide *value* commensurate with the fee we charge. Clients that are constantly requesting lower prices tend to drop away as there will always be a new start up firm that needs to establish itself or when we raise rates.
{Optional Story} About 10 years ago we did a series of shows for a philanthropic show promoter - a trust subsidized concerts so a non-profit organization "presenter" stood a better chance of fundraising instead of fund-losing. One of the NPO groups insisted on paying for production and promoter said "eh, cut us check for $400." Our fee with him was significantly more, but that wasn't the NPO's business. NPO was delighted with our service - the people, the gear, the attention to details - and asked us to quote when they were the sole promoter of another show. They were shocked and we had to explain that we were not involved in the fee they'd paid before; that the trust fund representative took care of our fee. It took some time for the NPO's head person to understand they'd not been taken advantage of and that we were completely out of the loop in their business arrangement. A decade down and we still don't do shows for them. {/Optional Story}
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In my experience (which isn't much) As long as you're making enough money to cover expenses and make you happy (and there isn't a different higher paying event), then do the gig.
I am slowly discovering that the market/clients in my area only want to spend $1000-1500.
I have done plenty of gigs for my bottom dollar (negotiated up for them, down for me) [~$1500 full band & light rig] never once have I gained anything from doing that. No new clients, no return clients, no advertisement, nothing, nada. Had I done it for less, I would not have been happy. One might argue "I'm not using the gear, you should do it for cheap, etc" But I'd rather have the gear sit at home than be underpaid. I have the luxury of a day job so if you have bills to pay... DO ALL THE GIGS.
Yepper. My rule of thumb is consider doing the gig if the profit, after labor and overhead, exceeds that months depreciation of the gear. And by "after labor" I mean paying yourself as the technician as well as the overhead expense of your compensation as manager. Another plug for Cost Accounting... 8)
Bottom feeder clients (bottom of whatever level one happens to be at), at their best, bring only other bottom feeder clients. In another 6 months I may have one of my 'stories' about that... ;)