Post by: Jason Lavoie on March 10, 2008, 05:55:28 PM
I'm looking for recommendations of what you might consider "equivalent" and when I say that I really mean, same sort of coverage and look/feel, but better bang for your buck in the SPL/quality department and overall better speakers..
mostly 402s and 802s
any good alternatives in the Community, TOA, or Atlas range of things?
Jason
Post by: Duncan McLennan on March 10, 2008, 06:10:40 PM
What's the application?
I have no idea of your budget, but look at any of the standard pro sound companies: EV, JBL, EAW, Turbosound, Yorkville (cheap here in Canada), Meyer, L'Acoustics, etc. Lots of other options too.
Post by: Jason Lavoie on March 10, 2008, 06:38:24 PM
I'm thinking more in terms of when I have a customer who has a quote from someone else that has bose in it, I want something to be able to suggest to them that's about the same price, or at least no more than 1.5x the price that would do a better job. but still fit the same overall system design/layout if someone has already done a good job of convincing the customer where the speakers should all go.
Jason
Post by: Craig Hauber on March 10, 2008, 06:53:17 PM
For 802's try the E-V SX-300, for the 402 try an EV ZX-1.
(I'm thinking plastic-cabinet install speakers)
There are many other options just from EV, but like a previous poster said, most any quality brand (JBL, Community etc..) will have good choices.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 10, 2008, 08:54:57 PM
First of all: What Bose and what application? Price would help also.
Bose makes a number of different products as do other manfacturers. You can't narrow it down like that.
Without knowing that, sure there are other loudspeakers available-now narrow it down.
It is like syaing are there any othe cars then Chevy? Sure, what do you want it for?
Post by: Rain Jaudon on March 10, 2008, 09:26:47 PM
http://www.nexo-sa.com/asp/catalogue/catalogue.asp?linkid=78
Post by: Jason Lavoie on March 11, 2008, 08:17:45 AM
| Ivan Beaver wrote on Mon, 10 March 2008 20:54 |
You have given us nothing to work with. First of all: What Bose and what application? Price would help also. Bose makes a number of different products as do other manfacturers. You can't narrow it down like that. Without knowing that, sure there are other loudspeakers available-now narrow it down. It is like syaing are there any othe cars then Chevy? Sure, what do you want it for? |
yeah. I guess I'm asking for a magic bullet when any old rock will take out my opponent.
I guess I'm just worried, not having heard a lot of 402s and 802s that weren't blown or otherwise misused, that maybe someday I'll recommend something that isn't much of an upgrade and the customer won't be happy (although it hasn't happened yet)
Jason
Post by: Rain Jaudon on March 11, 2008, 10:13:05 AM
Not sure if its still being made or is around.
Upward firing coax mid/hi speaker and a sub.
They had everything from a suitcase size to a trunk sized system. Passive. But 180 degree dispersion, no need for monitors, no hotspots of db in the room.
Post by: Tom Young on March 11, 2008, 02:53:59 PM
Conversely; if the 802 (or one of its Bose kin) happens to fit the needs for targeting the seats and space, then almost any other loudspeaker will require multiples of devices to achieve this same coverage.
To summarize: if a client was trying to strong-arm me into using a Bose 802 (again: for example) the chances are VERY good that my primary arguement against it would be its coverage pattern, which would be too wide and too high for almost all spaces and suspension points.
Post by: Jason Lavoie on March 14, 2008, 12:20:57 PM
| Quote: |
The main difference is in the speakers. I specifically chose Bose because of the controlled sound coverage they provide. This is achieved because they use arrays of small cone speaker drivers. The quote from Lawson mentions a 12" woofer and horn combination which is not comparable to an array of smaller drivers. The coverage of a 12" and horn combination is not even at the different frequencies and is especially troublesome in the region where the sound crosses over from the 12" woofer to the horn. This is just a fact of life for these types of speaker systems, no matter what the suppliers may tell you. I know the system will work with the Bose speakers. I'm not sure if the Community speakers could be made to work as well, as they are not really comparable to the Bose. If we can stick with the specified equipment, I think this is the best approach. Changing things at this stage will require some extra work and I'm not sure would provide any performance benefits. |
this is for a large 50M pool, with 6 speakers covering the audience (of about 6-700 and 6 covering the pool for aquafit classes (read: loud music with bass)
oh, and one more thing.. I think my quote may even be cheaper than the one with Bose in it.
Comments?
Jason
Post by: Rob Timmerman on March 14, 2008, 01:59:06 PM
The R5 will also get significantly louder than the 402, if that's a factor. Low frequency output will be comparable from both boxes, although you'll get more output from the R5 as it's a more efficient box. Significant LF energy in a pool environment is asking for trouble, though, as it's a very reverberant environment.
Either box will probably work, but since the devil is in the details, which one will work better will depend on the specifics of the system design.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 14, 2008, 06:03:51 PM
So from that comparison, the designs do not offer the same coverage.
The R.594 might be a closer choice to the pattern of the Bose-IF THAT is what is actually needed for the particular job. We do not have enough details to determine that.
HOWEVER, if one thinks that you have a 60
Post by: Craig Hauber on March 15, 2008, 11:40:48 AM
Also some of the community WET series are "bose-ish" in appearence and even better in environmental resistance.
(I also couldn't imagine the bose multi-cone "toss sound everywhere" approach in a reverberant sports facility!)
Post by: Jason Lavoie on March 15, 2008, 11:57:15 AM
| Craig Hauber wrote on Sat, 15 March 2008 11:40 |
I'm thinking the community R.25 series are more of the better "equivalent" to the 402. R.5 would take-on the 802. And in a pool environment the community has far superior moisture and corrosion resistance. I've seen my fair share of warped, cracked sun-bleached bose with corroded internal wiring and dead cones in outdoor or damp environments. Also some of the community WET series are "bose-ish" in appearence and even better in environmental resistance. (I also couldn't imagine the bose multi-cone "toss sound everywhere" approach in a reverberant sports facility!) |
that was my take on it exactly..
I could have gone with the R.25's but the R.5's fit the budget and I figured it wouldn't hurt to have a little extra kick for the rare times that the place fills up with noisy fans.
FWIW there is a separate part of this job that is a 10 sheet curling rink with 16' ceiling where 4 bose 802s were specified (one in each corner) and I've again recommended to replace those with R.5's
Still not sure if I want to put them in the corners or cluster them in the center.
Jason
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 15, 2008, 12:31:04 PM
I would try and detail exactly where you need coverage (I honestly have no idea regarding a curling rink-regarding players and spectators and who really needs to HEAR-not everybody does usually) and try and get the loudspeakers close to the people and use large devices that offer pattern control so you do not drive the reverberant field.
Splattering it everywhere is the worst thing to do-I don't care what the ads say that state a single loudspeaker can cover a pool facility well.
Post by: Jason Lavoie on March 15, 2008, 02:47:25 PM
with that in mind, do you still feel that the middle is bad?
if you have a large square room (about 150'x150') with a 16'ceiling and you aren't able to put in a distributed system with many ceiling speakers, what would be your choice?
thanks.
Jason
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 15, 2008, 04:20:32 PM
Without knowing any more information, I would think zones would be a good idea for different events, turning off loudspeakers when not needed.
So are you saying that with a 150x150 room the consultant was going to place a loudspeaker in each corner and face it in and by some MIRACLE people near the middle would be able to hear well?
If so, then I would not trust ANYTHING that comes from that person.
Post by: Jason Lavoie on March 15, 2008, 04:28:04 PM
the spec for that room was a Bose 802 in each corner, and a recommendation for acoustic paneling on the walls (to tame the >90deg pattern of the 802s)
knowing full well that there was no budget for the paneling.
I think he was just covering for when he knew it would still sound crappy.
the reason I say distributed would be hard is that it has a suspended low-e ceiling and getting above that to suspend speakers, and then cutting through it to get them out would be prohibitively expensive.
Jason
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 15, 2008, 04:39:35 PM
WIth that low of a ceiling you are going to have a problem getting even coverage-without some sort of diestributed approach.
If the budget was for 4 802's, then I would suggest turning down the job, and telling them why. So when they try something and it does not work, you can come back to them and tell them you told them and they will simply need to spend more money in order to get the job done correctly.
You will be blamed if the job does not work.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 15, 2008, 05:28:49 PM
The basic concepts apply. You will be loud in the corners, quiet in the middle and lots of interferance in the overlap areas.
Post by: Jason Lavoie on March 15, 2008, 10:25:34 PM
how distributed does it need to be for relatively even coverage?
from the looks of your model 8 smaller speakers (R.25?) in the corners and center cluster at the same time would be better than either one alone with larger speakers.
thanks for the help.
Jason
Post by: Rob Timmerman on March 16, 2008, 12:46:31 AM
Post by: Jason Lavoie on March 16, 2008, 09:01:28 AM
if he suggested 4 speakers and if I suggest 20 it might not go over too well.
From what I hear though, he's only billed an hour for reviewing the work in both the pool and curling rink. so he can't be too thorough.
Jason
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 16, 2008, 12:30:09 PM
You would have MASSIVE combfiltering all over the place!The basic idea in ANY sound system is to have the sound start in a single source and then expand from that.
Since you have pillars all over the place, you could place smaller loudspeakers (first you have to determine the REAL needs of the customer) and delay them out from a starting point-whatever that might be.
Of course the labor would be higher and loudspeaker cost are unknown (due to the unknown-to me-usage), but at least it would work
.If it is not going to work properly I would walk away, rather be associated with a bad system.
Post by: Jason Lavoie on March 16, 2008, 07:03:05 PM
if you could place 4 large, or 8 smaller speakers anywhere on the perimiter or on those pillars, what would be your best bet?
I agree with walking away, but at the end of the day this will still (regardless of speaker type or placement) be 100x better than what they have now, so I know the customer will still be happy. and the majority of the job is the pool, which I'm confident will be properly covered.
Jason
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 16, 2008, 08:05:22 PM
Post by: Jason Lavoie on March 16, 2008, 09:54:46 PM
how would a tall vertical coverage help with such a low ceiling? it seems a bit counter-intuitive.
Jason
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 16, 2008, 10:01:39 PM
The tall vertical coverage would be needed for the people who are seated under or near the loudspeaker.
Another idea if budget was not an issue would be to use a couple (maybe 3) of Intellivox 2C stearable line sources. You could control the coverage to just skim the tops of peoples heads.
There are usually a couple of ways to "skin the cat", each with its own pros and cons.
Post by: Rob Timmerman on March 16, 2008, 11:12:11 PM
http://pro.bose.com/ProController?url=/pro/products/panaray/ panarayma12.jsp
Post by: Stephen Askins on March 25, 2008, 05:50:44 AM
how dare you suggest that a Bose solution may actually work after the original poster told us basically how much Bose sucks. Please keep your informed opinions to yourself and try and recommend the flavour of the month; perhaps a line array?
Post by: Rob Timmerman on March 25, 2008, 01:23:23 PM
Post by: Stephen Askins on March 26, 2008, 05:14:29 AM
your right ! Just goes to show I shouldnt post whilst relaxing after a hard day with a very nice glass of Australian red wine ! I was getting the speaker you mentioned confused with another speaker I'm putting into a very large hotel soon (that isnt a line array). I was just impressed that someone on the LAB would say that a Bose product may actually suit a particular requirement and wasnt bound by the usual prejudice. As you would realise, the original post kinda let the cat out of the bag that this was a person who really should not be involved in the installation side of things as there was no mention of the requirement. Kinda explains my tongue in cheek response as I couldnt really take the post seriously!
Regards
Post by: Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC on March 26, 2008, 07:13:28 PM
I have never heard of a "low-e" ceiling. (I have heard of low-e glass.) Is it a grid and tile reflective ceiling with lots of insulation on top or is it sheetrock? Please enlighten us.
At any rate distributed is the only way that makes sense here. If the ceiling is either of these designs speakers can be installed from the outside into holes cut for them. It is usually a simple matter to fish wiring through the space from speaker to speaker also.
-Hal
Post by: Jason Lavoie on March 26, 2008, 07:56:40 PM
| Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 19:13 |
the reason I say distributed would be hard is that it has a suspended low-e ceiling and getting above that to suspend speakers, and then cutting through it to get them out would be prohibitively expensive. I have never heard of a "low-e" ceiling. (I have heard of low-e glass.) Is it a grid and tile reflective ceiling with lots of insulation on top or is it sheetrock? Please enlighten us. At any rate distributed is the only way that makes sense here. If the ceiling is either of these designs speakers can be installed from the outside into holes cut for them. It is usually a simple matter to fish wiring through the space from speaker to speaker also. -Hal |
I found a picture..
the Low-e ceilings are a heavy foil suspended on tensioned wires. to create an air gap that helps in the cooling bills.
holes could be cut to expose speakers, but to get up to the main roof to properly suspend anything is impossible. and the material is not strong enough to support any weight.
if this was a new build it would be a piece of cake but I don't think I can do a distributed system here. (no more than small speakers along all the walls and pillars)
Jason
Post by: Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC on March 26, 2008, 11:21:04 PM
Hate to recommend them but something like Soundsphere comes to mind. You should be able to gain access to the space above by opening the seams as necessary. That may not be easy or cheap and that's why they are recommending speakers in the corners instead of doing it right.
This is copied from one manufacturer's website:
"Among the distinct advantages of the installation of the
Energy Miser