ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Donnie Evans on April 05, 2011, 10:28:16 AM
-
So I'm looking into getting some new subs. My choices aren't necessarily just limited to these three, but this is what I have found recently, all for nearly the same money... either:
4x - JBL SR4719X
-or-
4x - Yorkville TX9
-or-
2x - Danley TH215
I just want to get opinions on these, as I have no personal experience mixing on any of them. That said, here is what i know... the JBL's I have heard plenty of times, and I know if I power them right, I'll be plenty happy. The Yorkville's I've heard once or twice and they sounded pretty good to me, but I realy don't know how they stack up to the SR-X when A/B'd. And the Danley, I've never heard but I know their reputation. Also about the Danley, I would love to be able to have two boxes that will output as much as 4 of the other, but I guess I am being very skeptical on whether 2 boxes can hang with 4. So some of you that have much more experience with any of these boxes, what are your opinions?
-
So I'm looking into getting some new subs. My choices aren't necessarily just limited to these three, but this is what I have found recently, all for nearly the same money... either:
4x - JBL SR4719X
-or-
4x - Yorkville TX9
-or-
2x - Danley TH215
I just want to get opinions on these, as I have no personal experience mixing on any of them. That said, here is what i know... the JBL's I have heard plenty of times, and I know if I power them right, I'll be plenty happy. The Yorkville's I've heard once or twice and they sounded pretty good to me, but I realy don't know how they stack up to the SR-X when A/B'd. And the Danley, I've never heard but I know their reputation. Also about the Danley, I would love to be able to have two boxes that will output as much as 4 of the other, but I guess I am being very skeptical on whether 2 boxes can hang with 4. So some of you that have much more experience with any of these boxes, what are your opinions?
I run 2-4 of Bill Fitzmaurice's Titan 48's with an Eminence 15 in them. From what I've heard, they're not quite the equal of the Danley's not being a tapped horn, but in the 30" width I built, they'll each keep up with a SRX728. If the Danley are every bit I'm led to believe, yes, two will match four of the other and take less power to do it.
-
This is my experience. I've used both front loaded and horn loaded subs. Each seems to have their strengths and weaknesses. You must decide which is right for you based on your usage.
Horn loaded subs are very efficient but they tend to be very hot at their resonant frequency. Some call it "one note bass" because one frequency seems to dominate the room far more than the others. Although EQ tweaks can help to control this. Horn loaded subs seem better suited for long-throw, outdoor events.
Front loaded subs are not as efficient but they tend to sound more smooth and natural. Thus, it takes twice as many to keep up with the system. Front loaded subs may be better suited for short-throw, smaller indoor events.
-
This is my experience. I've used both front loaded and horn loaded subs. Each seems to have their strengths and weaknesses. You must decide which is right for you based on your usage.
Horn loaded subs are very efficient but they tend to be very hot at their resonant frequency. Some call it "one note bass" because one frequency seems to dominate the room far more than the others. Although EQ tweaks can help to control this. Horn loaded subs seem better suited for long-throw, outdoor events.
Front loaded subs are not as efficient but they tend to sound more smooth and natural. Thus, it takes twice as many to keep up with the system. Front loaded subs may be better suited for short-throw, smaller indoor events.
I would not throw all horn loaded subs into the same "pot". Yes there are the classic "one note bass" cabients that were designed to get loud around a certain freq, but then there are others that have a much smoother response.
Why do you think horn loaded subs are better for longer "throws" and front loaded is better for smaller rooms?
Agreed there are advantages and disadvantages to each type-but the points you have made are not regarding that.
-
I would not throw all horn loaded subs into the same "pot". Yes there are the classic "one note bass" cabients that were designed to get loud around a certain freq, but then there are others that have a much smoother response.
Why do you think horn loaded subs are better for longer "throws" and front loaded is better for smaller rooms?
Agreed there are advantages and disadvantages to each type-but the points you have made are not regarding that.
The subs I'll be replacing are 2 older Yorkville (SW900 i think is the model). They are single 18 horn loaded in pretty big cabinets... (older version of the LS1208, just with weaker drivers). They do ok for what we do, outdoors they do work well at distance, but I dont know if its them being a horn loaded cabinet, or just not a good enough speaker, but they really lack the punch I'm looking for. That's another reason I'm looking at the front loaded boxes also.
-
They do ok for what we do, outdoors they do work well at distance, but I dont know if its them being a horn loaded cabinet, or just not a good enough speaker, but they really lack the punch I'm looking for. That's another reason I'm looking at the front loaded boxes also.
Things work well at a distance because they are loud enough at 1 meter. It is just Physics.
Good horns have less distortion than some popular front loaded boxes and tend to "sound softer" up front. Our ears hear the distortion as loudness sometime. Also, for some music choices, we are accustomed to the sound of the distortion so when it isn't there it doesn't sound right.
My personal experience has been that with a single sub (JTR Growler horn loaded) per side, it is hard to get the "punch" but with either a pair or more clustered I have no problem.
-
Things work well at a distance because they are loud enough at 1 meter. It is just Physics.
Good horns have less distortion than some popular front loaded boxes and tend to "sound softer" up front. Our ears hear the distortion as loudness sometime. Also, for some music choices, we are accustomed to the sound of the distortion so when it isn't there it doesn't sound right.
My personal experience has been that with a single sub (JTR Growler horn loaded) per side, it is hard to get the "punch" but with either a pair or more clustered I have no problem.
I try to center mine whenever I can. Sometimes it's just not possible though and I know it would be better to put both on one side of stage but it's also the aesthetics of it, the band can't fathom the idea of it sounding right with both subs on one side... and they are also the perfect height to get my tops where I like them and I have nothing else to raise one top where I want it if I was to put both on a single side.
-
Why do you think horn loaded subs are better for longer "throws" and front loaded is better for smaller rooms?
Yeah, that's why all the arena tours are using only horn subs.
...Not.
-
This is my experience. I've used both front loaded and horn loaded subs. Each seems to have their strengths and weaknesses. You must decide which is right for you based on your usage.
Horn loaded subs are very efficient but they tend to be very hot at their resonant frequency. Some call it "one note bass" because one frequency seems to dominate the room far more than the others. Although EQ tweaks can help to control this. Horn loaded subs seem better suited for long-throw, outdoor events.
Front loaded subs are not as efficient but they tend to sound more smooth and natural. Thus, it takes twice as many to keep up with the system. Front loaded subs may be better suited for short-throw, smaller indoor events.
I would not throw all horn loaded subs into the same "pot". Yes there are the classic "one note bass" cabients that were designed to get loud around a certain freq, but then there are others that have a much smoother response.
Why do you think horn loaded subs are better for longer "throws" and front loaded is better for smaller rooms?
Agreed there are advantages and disadvantages to each type-but the points you have made are not regarding that.
NOTE TO SELF: Don't tell anymore newbies what my experience has been. Others don't like it if it not the same as theirs.
-
This is my experience. I've used both front loaded and horn loaded subs. Each seems to have their strengths and weaknesses. You must decide which is right for you based on your usage.
Horn loaded subs are very efficient but they tend to be very hot at their resonant frequency. Some call it "one note bass" because one frequency seems to dominate the room far more than the others. Although EQ tweaks can help to control this. Horn loaded subs seem better suited for long-throw, outdoor events.
Front loaded subs are not as efficient but they tend to sound more smooth and natural. Thus, it takes twice as many to keep up with the system. Front loaded subs may be better suited for short-throw, smaller indoor events.
I would not throw all horn loaded subs into the same "pot". Yes there are the classic "one note bass" cabients that were designed to get loud around a certain freq, but then there are others that have a much smoother response.
Why do you think horn loaded subs are better for longer "throws" and front loaded is better for smaller rooms?
Agreed there are advantages and disadvantages to each type-but the points you have made are not regarding that.
NOTE TO SELF: Don't tell anymore newbies what my experience has been. Others don't like it if it not the same as theirs.
Dear self:
If you're implying that Ivan is a noob you couldn't be wronger.
-
Yeah, that's why all the arena tours are using only horn subs.
...Not.
I don't think that's how he meant that Bennett... I think he was genuinely asking him that question to see his response, not because he actually believes that concept. Maybe I mis-interpreted it.
-
Don't assume all horn-loaded boxes are folded. They are uncommon, but a front-loaded horn is a different animal than the standard folded variety. Just too damn big for most mobile use..
-
This is my experience. I've used both front loaded and horn loaded subs. Each seems to have their strengths and weaknesses. You must decide which is right for you based on your usage.
Horn loaded subs are very efficient but they tend to be very hot at their resonant frequency. Some call it "one note bass" because one frequency seems to dominate the room far more than the others. Although EQ tweaks can help to control this. Horn loaded subs seem better suited for long-throw, outdoor events.
Front loaded subs are not as efficient but they tend to sound more smooth and natural. Thus, it takes twice as many to keep up with the system. Front loaded subs may be better suited for short-throw, smaller indoor events.
I would not throw all horn loaded subs into the same "pot". Yes there are the classic "one note bass" cabients that were designed to get loud around a certain freq, but then there are others that have a much smoother response.
Why do you think horn loaded subs are better for longer "throws" and front loaded is better for smaller rooms?
Agreed there are advantages and disadvantages to each type-but the points you have made are not regarding that.
NOTE TO SELF: Don't tell anymore newbies what my experience has been. Others don't like it if it not the same as theirs.
It is one thing to state your preferences-but it is also important to understand the difference between opinion and fact.
It is very possible your "experience" has been limited to the certain type of cabinets. But they don't all fall into that category.
If horn subs are for "long throw" applications-then explain how (properly designed ones) work in small rooms and why (as Bennett said) large tours are mostly using front loaded subs?
For example-"Diesel cars can't go real fast". Fine-tell that to the guys that won the petiti la mans here a few years back.
Just tyring to "keep it real".
-
NOTE TO SELF: Don't tell anymore newbies what my experience has been. Others don't like it if it not the same as theirs.
Ivan is hardly a newbie and I'm not sure what about his post garnered this.
There certainly may be some generalizations regarding speaker designs that are often valid, but not necessarily always valid. Subwoofer design, and speaker design in general, involves many decisions and compromises and the decisions made for one product may be quite different from the decisions made for another product even if they share some basic physical similarities. You often have to look at the 'bigger picture' and not just one particular factor.
-
Yeah, that's why all the arena tours are using only horn subs.
...Not.
I don't think that's how he meant that Bennett... I think he was genuinely asking him that question to see his response, not because he actually believes that concept. Maybe I mis-interpreted it.
Sorry, I see how that could have been read. I was supporting Ivan in his questioning of Gordon's pigeonholing.
-
I would not throw all horn loaded subs into the same "pot". Yes there are the classic "one note bass" cabients that were designed to get loud around a certain freq, but then there are others that have a much smoother response.
Why do you think horn loaded subs are better for longer "throws" and front loaded is better for smaller rooms?
Agreed there are advantages and disadvantages to each type-but the points you have made are not regarding that.
The horn loaded sub that was mentioned by the OP does indeed have that inherent 100Hz hump which promotes "one note bass." (Based on the published response chart, 100Hz is roughly twice as loud as 50Hz.) I was only trying to make him aware of this phenomena.
As far as "long throw" duty, it is my understanding that horn subs have an easier time of getting the sound energy to go further due to the directionality that the horn provides. It tends to funnel more of the lowest frequency energy in one direction and thus would do better in longer venues. If I am wrong then I'll shut-up about it.
PS. Ivan was not the one that I was calling a noob.
-
I would not throw all horn loaded subs into the same "pot". Yes there are the classic "one note bass" cabients that were designed to get loud around a certain freq, but then there are others that have a much smoother response.
Why do you think horn loaded subs are better for longer "throws" and front loaded is better for smaller rooms?
Agreed there are advantages and disadvantages to each type-but the points you have made are not regarding that.
The horn loaded sub that was mentioned by the OP does indeed have that inherent 100Hz hump which promotes "one note bass." (Based on the published response chart, 100Hz is roughly twice as loud as 50Hz.) I was only trying to make him aware of this phenomena.
As far as "long throw" duty, it is my understanding that horn subs have an easier time of getting the sound energy to go further due to the directionality that the horn provides. It tends to funnel more of the lowest frequency energy in one direction and thus would do better in longer venues. If I am wrong then I'll shut-up about it.
PS. Ivan was not the one that I was calling a noob.
Given that the lower frequency wavelengths are measured in 10s of feet, it takes a pretty big horn to have any directional control. And, the "Inverse Square Law" is still in effect! You can predict the volume at any distance knowing the SPL at one meter and it isn't affected for the most part by the cabinet design.
Now, multiples of various cabinets may change this behavior.
-
The horn loaded sub that was mentioned by the OP does indeed have that inherent 100Hz hump which promotes "one note bass." (Based on the published response chart, 100Hz is roughly twice as loud as 50Hz.) I was only trying to make him aware of this phenomena.
As far as "long throw" duty, it is my understanding that horn subs have an easier time of getting the sound energy to go further due to the directionality that the horn provides. It tends to funnel more of the lowest frequency energy in one direction and thus would do better in longer venues. If I am wrong then I'll shut-up about it.
PS. Ivan was not the one that I was calling a noob.
The short vs long throw is probably due to the harmonic distortion already mentioned. Folded horns will filter out more of the low-mid harmonic distortion inherent to woofers. A reflex box has more broadband output contributing to an impression of punch up close that gets absorbed by bodies and air.
The punch/thump of a system ranges from 60-120+Hz. Having punchy top boxes with plenty of power in the 120Hz range is just as important, though you can roll off the subs higher as well to help augment that if you have to. That's getting into a wavelength that becomes spatially locatable though and is not what I'd rely on to carry that 100Hz+ range.
-
I suggest you mute your mains and see how much punch/thump the subs actually provide, even up to 120Hz. I suspect you will be surprised that it all sounds like mush without significantly higher frequency components.
-
I suggest you mute your mains and see how much punch/thump the subs actually provide, even up to 120Hz. I suspect you will be surprised that it all sounds like mush without significantly higher frequency components.
Or try rolling the tops at 140Hz and turning off the subs. There is a definite lack of impact, which is what I was addressing. Yes, subs are mush without tops, especially with a gentler slope like 24db/octave and all the low-mid content they still produce.
My point was more about how the combination is as important. Tops that come down to 150Hz and subs that come up to 100Hz do not produce as much impact/punch/thump however you want to describe it. A combination that is strong through the crossover region will yield a result that is significantly better than one that's weak on either side. Of course, given your posts, I know you already know that.
-
This is why I come here. Sometimes I learn something new and sometimes I get set straight on things I thought I knew.
Thanks everyone. Some good points in this thread.
-
I suggest you mute your mains and see how much punch/thump the subs actually provide, even up to 120Hz. I suspect you will be surprised that it all sounds like mush without significantly higher frequency components.
And align the subs to the tops at crossover, I have no issue getting punch from QRxs over Growlers.
-
Get the Yorkies. They have wheels and a handle where 1 guy can roll them into a gig.
Chuck