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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Yoel Klein on June 23, 2020, 12:09:59 PM
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Hi everyone,
I was waiting for someone to open a thread about it, So I’m doing it my self...
From what I’m reading on FB they say its an amazing product and I have on my road map to get a pair.
It would be interesting to discuss the facts about the Studio 2 since its using synergy technology on the DSP but actually looks like an ordinary 2 way monitor with a horn and woofer. Is it single points source? Isn’t it point source but still an amazing product?
Let’s discuss it. Because I’m curious what other here think about this design.
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I just looked at it.
THe picture is decieving. The top "tweeter" area is actually the same 6.5" coax driver from the studio 1. That is the "synergy" part of the box. The woofer is a 10". I'm sure that the crossover from the 10 to the 6.5 is low enough that they sum together well enough that the slightly offset location doesn't matter.
Danley needs a product photographer bad. You have no sense of scale on most of their cabinets.
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I just looked at it.
THe picture is decieving. The top "tweeter" area is actually the same 6.5" coax driver from the studio 1. That is the "synergy" part of the box. The woofer is a 10". I'm sure that the crossover from the 10 to the 6.5 is low enough that they sum together well enough that the slightly offset location doesn't matter.
Danley needs a product photographer bad. You have no sense of scale on most of their cabinets.
You are correct.
The idea was to not have a separate full range and sub speaker. A lot of studio guys don't like separate cabinets.
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My anecdotal evidence is as such:
If It sounds anything like the Studio 1. It is the best sounding speaker I have ever heard.
Though, I probably haven't heard very many 'high-end' speakers for my opinion to count.
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For the 'non-point source question'
The Studio 1 goes to 63hz -3dB and M-noise @ 109 SPL Cont
The Studio 2 goes to 28Hz -3dB and M-noise @ 108 SPL Cont
To me- that means the crossover between the 6.5" and the 10" is around 65Hz give or take.
Making the 1/4 wavelength for acoustical center summation 4.25ft.
Meaning, the reference monitor is a point source at all frequencies.
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On another note, I like the new look. The fabric and polish on the speaker make them look hi-fi whereas the initial versions looked cheap.
But I am disappointed they moved the port. For I asked Ivan about that at the Infocomm release last year in speaking with him they had intentionally designed it off-center to help internal cabinet standing waves.
I'm either wrong and they overcame that, or this is a pesky 'business' decision because just like their old impedance ratings of 3ohms or 6 ohms making people confused as to what amp to buy the off-center port location caused people to not prefer the 'look' and in order to sell more they made the wise choice of changing it.
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Lastly, the partnership over at Danley UK is doing well for the Danley team and it is good to see imperial measurements for the rest of the world on spec sheets.
Though, for the love of all things good can Danley send me the spec sheets before uploading to their website? The inconsistencies are confusing and annoying. I'll proof them for free.
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Studio 1 (new)
15.75 x 9 x 7.75
(https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Studio-OneRev2-ISO-Front-View-e1591020919446.png)
Studio 2
14.5 in. x 14 in. x 22.5 in. | 37 cm x 35.5 cm x 57 cm
(https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Studio2-ISO-View-e1588711442316.png)
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I'd like to see what the pricing is on the Studio 2. That way I can decide whether to think about buying a pair or just dream about buying a pair.
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I'd like to see what the pricing is on the Studio 2. That way I can decide whether to think about buying a pair or just dream about buying a pair.
Yeah, I'd love to know at least a ballpark on both of these speakers. I find myself in need of something like this, but I've no idea what price point we're dealing with on these things.
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Yeah, I'd love to know at least a ballpark on both of these speakers. I find myself in need of something like this, but I've no idea what price point we're dealing with on these things.
Saw an article that noted $4400 for the Studio 2 (it did not mention if that was per speaker or for a pair)
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I'd like to see what the pricing is on the Studio 2. That way I can decide whether to think about buying a pair or just dream about buying a pair.
Hint - it's lower than you'd think, I was pleasantly surprised. PM me for pricing.
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Saw an article that noted $4400 for the Studio 2 (it did not mention if that was per speaker or for a pair)
I'm still dreaming at half that number.
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For the 'non-point source question'
The Studio 1 goes to 63hz -3dB and M-noise @ 109 SPL Cont
The Studio 2 goes to 28Hz -3dB and M-noise @ 108 SPL Cont
To me- that means the crossover between the 6.5" and the 10" is around 65Hz give or take.
Making the 1/4 wavelength for acoustical center summation 4.25ft.
Meaning, the reference monitor is a point source at all frequencies.
Nah, the crossover will be higher than that. For starters, the Studio 1's 6.5" driver is ported, while the Studio 2 puts it in a sealed box.
You don't really want the midrange cone flapping around much, so shifting the crossover upwards as high as possible makes more sense. My bet is in the 2-300Hz range.
I must say that the ports on the Studio 2 look rather under-sized, but I suppose the studio engineers won't be squeezing every last dB out of these boxes. Might not be an issue in real use cases - I've just been designing lots of PA speakers recently, where I want them to hold up with kilowatts dropped in.
Chris
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I heard the first generation at Danley's shop and I was blown away at how good they sounded! I mean really, really great!
The current iteration can only be better, I'm sure.
I did offer to take a pair back to Canada to demonstrate to others but they, politely, declined ;D
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At $4400 a pair, while not cheap, but comparable to other hi-end studio monitors (Kii, Barefoot Sound). Proof will be from reviews from neutral places like Sound on Sound or Production Expert.
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At $4400 a pair, while not cheap, but comparable to other hi-end studio monitors (Kii, Barefoot Sound). Proof will be from reviews from neutral places like Sound on Sound or Production Expert.
If I were working for another 15 years I would consider such a price as an investment in my craft. Since I'm likely to retire in less than 5 years, it's a prohibitive cost. At the rate the USA is *effectively* dealing with SARS-CoV2, I will likely retire before arena events come back to full strength and profitability, and may have to retire sooner - Walmart no longer hires greeters...
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Danley needs a product photographer bad. You have no sense of scale on most of their cabinets.
Here is a photo from a studio that was one of the first to purchase the Studio 2s
https://tweedrecording.com/facilities/
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Here is a photo from a studio that was one of the first to purchase the Studio 2s
https://tweedrecording.com/facilities/
The cassette tape coffee table is waayyyy cool!
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The cassette tape coffee table is waayyyy cool!
I was just thinking the same thing. But do they have the appropriately sized pencil to go with? :D
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Do they have an 8 Track and a tape reel table as well!
...and I bet those monitors sound really good.
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Since there are numbers being (mis)represented in this thread, I'll mention that the MSRP for the Studio Two in the newest price list is $4990 each. As always, individual dealers determine actual pricing for their own clients.
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Since there are numbers being (mis)represented in this thread, I'll mention that the MSRP for the Studio Two in the newest price list is $4990 each. As always, individual dealers determine actual pricing for their own clients.
I assume that's targeted at my original post. Obviously if you are a dealer, you would know better than I...but here is what I found online.
https://musicplayers.com/2020/01/danley-breaks-the-mold-once-again-introducing-the-new-studio-1-and-studio-2-nearfield-monitors-and-studio-subwoofer/
MSRP:
Studio1-B: $1,600
Studio2-B: $4,400
StudioSub-B: $2,280
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That is a very competitive market in the studio speaker world. You get the Genelec 8351b's (which are stunning), and other super solid monitors from PMC and other top studio brands. I'm sure these sound great - but most things do at this price. I wish them well - the world always needs innovation and fresh ideas.
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Since there are numbers being (mis)represented in this thread, I'll mention that the MSRP for the Studio Two in the newest price list is $4990 each. As always, individual dealers determine actual pricing for their own clients.
In addition to no one paying full MSRP - even if that was sell price, it wouldn't be out of line. That's lower than the Fulcrum active studio monitors were, and a good bit lower than the Eve Audio 3012's. I haven't checked Adam, Genelec, et al. As long as no one expects Alesis level pricing - I'm happy with how they are priced. If I had the cash, I'd get a 5.1 setup into my home!
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In addition to no one paying full MSRP - even if that was sell price, it wouldn't be out of line. That's lower than the Fulcrum active studio monitors were, and a good bit lower than the Eve Audio 3012's. I haven't checked Adam, Genelec, et al. As long as no one expects Alesis level pricing - I'm happy with how they are priced. If I had the cash, I'd get a 5.1 setup into my home!
I would hope that the cost of a monitor doesn't make an owner believe that its the best because they would hate to think they wasted their money!
There are cheap monitors that sound amazing to me and I am very productive using them. There are also 80,000 dollar ones that are good, but not 79,000 better than the cheap ones!
And frankly the 80k monitors I used once weren't as good to my ears as what I heard coming out of the Danley Studio 1 I heard in a demo!
There is a refreshing difference in what I heard from the Danleys (and I'm thinking that it's because just about everything else uses a separate dome tweeter of some kind)
There is a part of me that wants Danley to price them low just to show-up all those high-end models.
But there's also a part of me that realizes monitors in the studio business are overwhelmingly judged by the size of their price-tag.
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That is a very competitive market in the studio speaker world. You get the Genelec 8351b's (which are stunning), and other super solid monitors from PMC and other top studio brands. I'm sure these sound great - but most things do at this price. I wish them well - the world always needs innovation and fresh ideas.
.. agree with this. For home use who would buy high end passive "Hi Fi" speakers when these mid-field powered monitors are so good.
Interesting how close the Studio 2 price / spec is to the Neumann KH310 (ref Sweetwater)
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If I were working for another 15 years I would consider such a price as an investment in my craft. Since I'm likely to retire in less than 5 years, it's a prohibitive cost. At the rate the USA is *effectively* dealing with SARS-CoV2, I will likely retire before arena events come back to full strength and profitability, and may have to retire sooner - Walmart no longer hires greeters...
I have , pretty much, the same outlook. I'm considering a delivery driver job. :-\
At just about $12,000 CDN for a pair, I will have to look at pics and remember my visit to Danley ;D
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I have , pretty much, the same outlook. I'm considering a delivery driver job. :-\
At just about $12,000 CDN for a pair, I will have to look at pics and remember my visit to Danley ;D
Or maybe take a "short little ride" again in the fall------------- HA HA
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I have , pretty much, the same outlook. I'm considering a delivery driver job. :-\
What we need is an arena somewhere with a few systems installed (d&b, L'Acoustics, Martin, Danley), a few consoles, and 128ch multi-track of various bands. Gear donated from production companies that used to do things called tours :( Monthly get-together of us old dinosaurs where we can pick a console, pick a speaker system, and mix away - and have the others present walk the room and critique our mixes 8) Reminisce about the 'good old days' of pre-2020, share a (few) bottles of Jack, and go on our way until the next month.
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What we need is an arena somewhere with a few systems installed (d&b, L'Acoustics, Martin, Danley), a few consoles, and 128ch multi-track of various bands. Gear donated from production companies that used to do things called tours :( Monthly get-together of us old dinosaurs where we can pick a console, pick a speaker system, and mix away - and have the others present walk the room and critique our mixes 8) Reminisce about the 'good old days' of pre-2020, share a (few) bottles of Jack, and go on our way until the next month.
It's a brief nirvana. I hear the cruise ship crew members that still await repatriated from their ships have long ago lost the thrill of the dance floor and the appeal of karaoke. Probably no booze, either. Between the merchant marine and cruise industry there are over 150,000 crew members 'stuck at sea'.
It would be fun to hear and use gear we might not otherwise get hands-on with, do measurements to verify software predictions, maybe a couple rounds of "The 45 Minute Mix - Live Version". How long is the nostalgia ticket good for?
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How long is the nostalgia ticket good for?
until there's a PROVEN vaccine...
Anyone want to take swing at my backup-backup-put way away MC-2404?
Got a MC-1608 monitor board lying around somewhere too...
Don't have the heart to toss em. They made me a lot of good money back before digital.
Chris.
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until there's a PROVEN vaccine...
Anyone want to take swing at my backup-backup-put way away MC-2404?
Got a MC-1608 monitor board lying around somewhere too...
Don't have the heart to toss em. They made me a lot of good money back before digital.
Chris.
I think we still have the case for a Yammy MC3210. I don't remember if we sold the mixer or paid to have it hauled off. Unless we have a Mackie 1604 hiding somewhere the only analog mixers in our shop are my collection of Shure SCM262/268 4 channel utility mixers and a couple of Peavey lunchbox mixer/amps.
We sold our PM3000 to a fellow who did a nice job of refurbishing it. I think he had it listed in the Marketplace a few years ago.
I don't miss the size/weight of the old big frame consoles like I thought I would. I don't especially miss "analogue". I miss the immediacy of muscle memory, reaching out to the exact control I need to use RFN.
Oh, and the doghouse of those large frame desks could support a pair of Danley Studio 1 or 2... ;)
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Or maybe take a "short little ride" again in the fall------------- HA HA
Meat and twos on me Ivan :)
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Mike's son came by with a pair of twos...pardon my old school respect of keeping it in the fam...and we took them to Bad Boys studio for playback. not sure if they were final versions.
As a side note, the headphone output of a laptop is an inadequate source
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.. agree with this. For home use who would buy high end passive "Hi Fi" speakers when these mid-field powered monitors are so good
unfortunately i have recently come across two folks more interrested in justifying their purchase of McIntosh power amps than sonics.
example..ATC SCM150 active 3 way $20,000 pair...passives @$39000...but you do get to choose stunning finishes
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It would be cool if Danley would send the Studio 2 over to Amirm at audiosciencereview.com to perform his Klippel NFS measurements. It's an impressive system that costs about $100,000 and allows you to take high resolution anechoic measurements without the need for an anechoic chamber or the time and effort involved with trying to take measurements outside. If fact, the NFS system is potentially more accurate than anechoic chambers at low frequencies. It would be interesting to see how it compares to a similar studio monitor in its price range such as the Genelec 8341A which are around $5900 for a pair. The CEA2034 "spinorama" measurements for this speaker are impeccable though. The biggest weakness he found was their limited power if you ever needed to impress your clients with how loud they get, but for normal studio operations it wouldn't likely be a problem
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/genelec-8341a-sam%E2%84%A2-studio-monitor-review.11652/
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Mark...Genelec has 2 models above the 8341...the 51 & 61...still using dual woofers behind a waveguide with a central coax mid high
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Other thing to point out - at this price point and performance level, if you're not mixing with them in a treated room, you're not really hearing what you could. Studio construction and sound treatment costs can make these speaker prices seem trivial, but it's worth it. In my untreated home studio, the Danleys would be casting pearls before swine - and in most home theater setups as well.
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So I’m coming back to my question, Is the studio 2 a single point source?
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So I’m coming back to my question, Is the studio 2 a single point source?
It can be considered that, yes.
I am taking a guess at the tech in these, but it's an educated guess and Ivan did agree to my earlier observation.
The mid/hi section is exactly the same as the studio 1. A 6.5" mid with a coaxial HF. Whatever synergy magic they do, is definitely happening here also. Just like you would pair the Studio 1 with an external sub and it still considered "point source" the Studio 2 just integrates the sub into the same cabinet.
Now that the Low frequency driver is very, very close to the midrange you can raise the crossover pooint between the two. This lessens the demand on the midrange which means you'll have even less intermodulation distortion out of the mid driver and the mid can handle a bit more input power now since it doesn't have to reproduce any low freqrency at all.
You get:
Point source
Extended freq response
Single cabinet
No single sub/room interaction issues
The downsides are:
Larger physical cabinet
Can't turn the sub on/off to A/B mixes that way.
So the ultimate monitoring situation would be to have a pair of each kind. Lol
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It can be considered that, yes.
I am taking a guess at the tech in these, but it's an educated guess and Ivan did agree to my earlier observation.
The mid/hi section is exactly the same as the studio 1. A 6.5" mid with a coaxial HF. Whatever synergy magic they do, is definitely happening here also. Just like you would pair the Studio 1 with an external sub and it still considered "point source" the Studio 2 just integrates the sub into the same cabinet.
Now that the Low frequency driver is very, very close to the midrange you can raise the crossover pooint between the two. This lessens the demand on the midrange which means you'll have even less intermodulation distortion out of the mid driver and the mid can handle a bit more input power now since it doesn't have to reproduce any low freqrency at all.
You get:
Point source
Extended freq response
Single cabinet
No single sub/room interaction issues
The downsides are:
Larger physical cabinet
Can't turn the sub on/off to A/B mixes that way.
So the ultimate monitoring situation would be to have a pair of each kind. Lol
You are correct in how the layout/operation is. Because the drivers are close together in relation to the xover freq, they will act as a single source of sound.
Regarding the sub on/off issue, it is interesting to listen to different recordings and the amount of bass they have. This gives an idea of the sub level in the studio.
If the recording has alack of bass, then the studio it was recorded in had TO MUCH bass, so the engineer lowered the bass instruments to account for that. But it makes the recording sound thin on a proper system.
This is one reason we made these to be used without a sub. It takes away the user adjustment of sub levels.
If you want more sub, then put it in the mix, NOT by increasing the level of the playback sub.
The whole goal of a studio monitor is to reproduce exactly (or as close as we can) the sound going into it, NOT to have a "color" of its own, which will mess up the mix being done on them. you want a white canvas to paint on, not an "off white", that you have to adjust to.
The same thing goes for PA speakers, in my opinion anyway, but that is a different topic.
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Ivan is correct as usual, but I think it's also important to keep in mind that often times where studio monitors are typically located are often not optimal positions for sub frequencies due to console bounce, front wall bounce, floor bounce, room modes, etc. That's why well respected acousticians such as Carl Tatz often prefer to integrate subs in optimal positions because when optimized correctly they can mitigate some of those issues, but as Ivan often says, "It depends." :)
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You are correct in how the layout/operation is. Because the drivers are close together in relation to the xover freq, they will act as a single source of sound.
Regarding the sub on/off issue, it is interesting to listen to different recordings and the amount of bass they have. This gives an idea of the sub level in the studio.
If the recording has alack of bass, then the studio it was recorded in had TO MUCH bass, so the engineer lowered the bass instruments to account for that. But it makes the recording sound thin on a proper system.
This is one reason we made these to be used without a sub. It takes away the user adjustment of sub levels.
If you want more sub, then put it in the mix, NOT by increasing the level of the playback sub.
The whole goal of a studio monitor is to reproduce exactly (or as close as we can) the sound going into it, NOT to have a "color" of its own, which will mess up the mix being done on them. you want a white canvas to paint on, not an "off white", that you have to adjust to.
The same thing goes for PA speakers, in my opinion anyway, but that is a different topic.
Ivan - I'd agree with you that for stereo listening, 2 speakers are the way to go, and monitors are there to reveal mix deficiencies.
Subs are helpful when someone is using speakers in a non-treated room, and usually at an MI grade level. At the level of studios these would be going into, I will assume that isn't an issue.
While I don't have a sub to go with my ancient Event Audio TR6's, I do use frequency analyzer plugins to show me how much low end I can't hear.
So perhaps a way to explain to studios is that once you reach a certain level, you don't need a sub - unless you're mixing post for 5.1/7.1...
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You are correct in how the layout/operation is. Because the drivers are close together in relation to the xover freq, they will act as a single source of sound.
Regarding the sub on/off issue, it is interesting to listen to different recordings and the amount of bass they have. This gives an idea of the sub level in the studio.
If the recording has alack of bass, then the studio it was recorded in had TO MUCH bass, so the engineer lowered the bass instruments to account for that. But it makes the recording sound thin on a proper system.
This is one reason we made these to be used without a sub. It takes away the user adjustment of sub levels.
If you want more sub, then put it in the mix, NOT by increasing the level of the playback sub.
The whole goal of a studio monitor is to reproduce exactly (or as close as we can) the sound going into it, NOT to have a "color" of its own, which will mess up the mix being done on them. you want a white canvas to paint on, not an "off white", that you have to adjust to.
The same thing goes for PA speakers, in my opinion anyway, but that is a different topic.
Thank you Ivan.
So the reason my current JBL LSR4328P's are NOT considered point source, is because the xover is at 2.6kHz?
I like the idea of not having the ability to adjust an external sub because it screws up the mix. Never thought of that, and I never had a sub in my recording studio because it was to hard and bulky too treat the room with proper bass traps.
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If you haven't properly treated the room, I don't think it matters if the LF content is coming from a sub or the Danley's - you're not going to be able to hear it well. The design of the Danleys means you don't need a sub, but you still need to treat your room to hear how low they can go accurately.
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If you haven't properly treated the room, I don't think it matters if the LF content is coming from a sub or the Danley's - you're not going to be able to hear it well. The design of the Danleys means you don't need a sub, but you still need to treat your room to hear how low they can go accurately.
Correct.
My room is not treated on the floor where a sub would go. it is treated in the middle position.
4" thick rock-board-40 and a 2" gap away from the walls. It's not the most fancy decoration but it surly does the job.
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Yoel - those look great and hung with the spacer even better.
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Correct.
My room is not treated on the floor where a sub would go. it is treated in the middle position.
4" thick rock-board-40 and a 2" gap away from the walls. It's not the most fancy decoration but it surly does the job.
A little bit of spacing (like you have) away from the wall is a good thing.
It extends the effectiveness of the panels down lower.
I tell people when doing treatments (absorption) in a room, try to at least use some furring strips (3/4"), but more is better, to a certain point.
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So the reason my current JBL LSR4328P's are NOT considered point source, is because the xover is at 2.6kHz?
To behave as a (virtual) point source requires the driver's center to center distance to be to be within 1/4 wavelength at the crossover frequency.
The JBL LSR4328P tweeter to woofer center to center distance is around 8 inches, the wave length of around 1500Hz. At that spacing, if the crossover were lowered to around 375 Hz, the two drivers would behave like a virtual point source, but the tweeter couldn't keep up to the woofer.
For near field monitoring, having a virtual point source/co-axial is a good feature to avoid response deviations in the crossover region as you sit or stand, or slump over on the desk after trying to get the perfect sound for 12 hours :'( .