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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: brian maddox on February 21, 2019, 10:34:58 PM
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Okay, this is strictly a curiosity question. i'm not in the market for either of these personally and i don't need a quote. Just wondering what ballpark these desks are in pricewise.
Assume similar channel count/configuration [ish... i know "it depends"...]
Estimates plus or minus 10k US is fine. i just have no idea, and this is something not easily googled.
thanks in advance
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Ok, so granted it's been about 3 years, but the last MSRP price I got for a PM10 with 128 inputs and 32 outputs, the SILK input cards, the price was right at the $165,000 mark. The S6L was right in the same range, with equivalent I/O.
I haven't had an occasion to price out an SD7, but from what I heard, they are in the $220-250,000 range.
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Since S6L is a whole system it’s hard to tell, it starts very small with the 16c surface and will go very big.
Let’s say 50k - 150k ;)
I compared 24c with a small engine to a couple of other desks, and feature wise ( bus count, flexibility) S6 is pretty stable on top of the others ( SSL100/200 PM7 )
Probably the only console that will give you more bang for your bucks would be the dLive System, wich is very intriguing:)
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I would put PM7, SD12, and S6L 24D or possibly 24C in the same league as each other. Digico and S6L are very close in pricing, but it depends on which Digico stage rack, E6 engine, etc. PM7 is around 25% more expensive than SD12 or S6L. It's more in line with an S6L 32 surface, which makes sense. FWIW, a comparable Dlive C system is half an S6L or SD12 and a Dlive S system is at least 30% less.
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I would put PM7, SD12, and S6L 24D or possibly 24C in the same league as each other. Digico and S6L are very close in pricing, but it depends on which Digico stage rack, E6 engine, etc. PM7 is around 25% more expensive than SD12 or S6L. It's more in line with an S6L 32 surface, which makes sense. FWIW, a comparable Dlive C system is half an S6L or SD12 and a Dlive S system is at least 30% less.
SD12 isn’t on the same level, it doesn’t have the channel and bus capacity. SD8, 10, 5, and 7 are or are above them.
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SD12 isn’t on the same level, it doesn’t have the channel and bus capacity.
For now.
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For now.
When it bumps to 96 channels as was discussed at the recent NAMM it’ll still fall well below the other consoles being discussed here. At that point it’ll be a dual screen sd9.
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When it bumps to 96 channels as was discussed at the recent NAMM it’ll still fall well below the other consoles being discussed here. At that point it’ll be a dual screen sd9.
I disagree. The SD12, like each of the Digico offerings, occupies it's own unique space in the Digico world. When the channel count bump comes I expect it will become a challenge to the SD8 in terms of rider acceptability. It offers more physical control (knobs and buttons) than SD9 and hence is generally friendlier to use in pressure situations. It offers less knobs and buttons than SD8 but the dual screen is a plus. I expect we will see the SD12 become acceptable in rider situations that an SD9 will never rise to. Just my thoughts.
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SD12 isn’t on the same level, it doesn’t have the channel and bus capacity. SD8, 10, 5, and 7 are or are above them.
I didn't look at channel count to make my comparisons. 99% of shows are less than 72 inputs. What I look at is who is carrying them or spec'ing them on tours or events of a similar level.
Maybe it's more fair to say that S6L 24C with E112 engine is in line with an SD12. I think prices would be similar as well.
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For an SD7, $265k would be a proper comparison point with 56x56 i/o and HMA optics.
I haven't had an occasion to price out an SD7, but from what I heard, they are in the $220-250,000 range.
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I didn't look at channel count to make my comparisons. 99% of shows are less than 72 inputs. What I look at is who is carrying them or spec'ing them on tours or events of a similar level.
Maybe it's more fair to say that S6L 24C with E112 engine is in line with an SD12. I think prices would be similar as well.
I think those two consoles are a reasonable comparison. When looking at what is showing up on riders one needs to consider how long a console has been on the market and has had a fair chance at gaining acceptability (or not). At our level, we find the SD8 to be the most requested in Digico world. We do see the SD12 making inroads. I think the channel bump is going to make the SD12 a very acceptable alternative to the SD8. We'll see. One thing I know for sure is that I have been wrong before. :-)
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I think those two consoles are a reasonable comparison. When looking at what is showing up on riders one needs to consider how long a console has been on the market and has had a fair chance at gaining acceptability (or not). At our level, we find the SD8 to be the most requested in Digico world. We do see the SD12 making inroads. I think the channel bump is going to make the SD12 a very acceptable alternative to the SD8. We'll see. One thing I know for sure is that I have been wrong before. :-)
Well, here's hoping that the SD12 pairs well with WPL. :)
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If I were in the market for a console, I’d first check with Clair Global. Those guys have some pretty nice stuff and it’s usually discounted pretty heavily (used, but well maintained)...
Here’s an SD7 they had:
https://clairusedgear.com/products/digico-sd7
When I toured their facilities last year, they had a ton of PLM20000 amps for around $3300. That’s just insane.
Tom A over at Clair Global is also one heckuva nice guy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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If I were in the market for a console, I’d first check with Clair Global. Those guys have some pretty nice stuff and it’s usually discounted pretty heavily (used, but well maintained)...
Here’s an SD7 they had:
https://clairusedgear.com/products/digico-sd7
When I toured their facilities last year, they had a ton of PLM20000 amps for around $3300. That’s just insane.
Tom A over at Clair Global is also one heckuva nice guy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Tom is a great guy to work with. :)
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Ok, so granted it's been about 3 years, but the last MSRP price I got for a PM10 with 128 inputs and 32 outputs, the SILK input cards, the price was right at the $165,000 mark. The S6L was right in the same range, with equivalent I/O.
I haven't had an occasion to price out an SD7, but from what I heard, they are in the $220-250,000 range.
Wow, no wonder show ticket costs are so high! (It would have to be for any reasonable ROI after buying rest of gear, labor and artist pay)
-guess I'm out of touch.
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Wow, no wonder show ticket costs are so high! (It would have to be for any reasonable ROI after buying rest of gear, labor and artist pay)
-guess I'm out of touch.
As much as I'd love for us to own a fleet of new AVIDs, Yamahas and DiGiCos, the lack of demand (and clients willing to pay extra) means we'll keep sending out X32s and the occasional SC48 when a rider comes in to play. Can't financially justify otherwise.
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Wow, no wonder show ticket costs are so high! (It would have to be for any reasonable ROI after buying rest of gear, labor and artist pay)
-guess I'm out of touch.
Big touring shows don't buy their consoles (with the rare exception). They rent them from production companies who buy them and supply for multiple tours over the life of the console.
Compared to the fees that the artists and all the other labor get, the cost of an audio console is negligible for a year long world tour.
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Big touring shows don't buy their consoles (with the rare exception). They rent them from production companies who buy them and supply for multiple tours over the life of the console.
Compared to the fees that the artists and all the other labor get, the cost of an audio console is negligible for a year long world tour.
I would guess that if the touring sound person had to buy their console of choice to tour with we would see a shift in what they really needed to get the job done.
Kind of glad I don't play in the world of five and six digit price figure consoles.
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Wow, no wonder show ticket costs are so high! (It would have to be for any reasonable ROI after buying rest of gear, labor and artist pay)
-guess I'm out of touch.
Actually a little mental math yields pretty similar numbers for a typical analog FOH rig in the 80's [when a lot of this stuff was custom built and wicked expensive] or the 90's/2K's [when channel counts rose along with oversized effects rack]. It's still admittedly a lot of money, but i don't think it's gone up appreciably.
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Actually a little mental math yields pretty similar numbers for a typical analog FOH rig in the 80's [when a lot of this stuff was custom built and wicked expensive] or the 90's/2K's [when channel counts rose along with oversized effects rack]. It's still admittedly a lot of money, but i don't think it's gone up appreciably.
The great thing about digital these days is you can now easily share consoles between acts and not be limited to 8 channels for the openers on a 48 channel desk.
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The great thing about digital these days is you can now easily share consoles between acts and not be limited to 8 channels for the openers on a 48 channel desk.
Hah! You'd like to think so, wouldn't you? Sadly a lot of headliners are still super stingy about sharing their high dollar digital consoles and make the support acts carry their own.
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Hah! You'd like to think so, wouldn't you? Sadly a lot of headliners are still super stingy about sharing their high dollar digital consoles and make the support acts carry their own.
True, which is mostly super stupid, but in smaller club/concert venue land it’s pretty magical. It’s amazing to think of how an X32 is more capable on almost every metric (almost) than the Midas legend consoles we had + all the outboard gear. I’d still rather mix monitors on the big analog desk though!
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The great thing about digital these days is you can now easily share consoles between acts and not be limited to 8 channels for the openers on a 48 channel desk.
Except that *never* happens unless the support act is paying a portion of the rental fee... and I've mixed support acts on the headliner's console - the support felt it more important to have the desk than have their own mixerperson.
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Wow, no wonder show ticket costs are so high! (It would have to be for any reasonable ROI after buying rest of gear, labor and artist pay)
-guess I'm out of touch.
Big consoles are a loss leader.
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Actually a little mental math yields pretty similar numbers for a typical analog FOH rig in the 80's [when a lot of this stuff was custom built and wicked expensive] or the 90's/2K's [when channel counts rose along with oversized effects rack]. It's still admittedly a lot of money, but i don't think it's gone up appreciably.
Yes you are absolutely right.
Earlier my "mental math" was figuring console prices since the "3K/4K era" were exceeding inflation rates but totally forgot the insert and effects rack -which didn't take much effort to exceed the cost of the console itself! (not to mention the snake cabling cost to connect everything)
So quite possibly when including inflation, modern digital FOH could actually be cheaper than the FOH package of the "good ole' days"
But still, multi-tour rentals, leases or loss-leaders aside, the money to pay for it has to come from somewhere, which means somebody's rate will increase incrementally to accommodate even if it's buried in other line items, Clair and other premium providers haven't been in successful business as long as they have by giving stuff away!
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Big consoles are a loss leader.
They shouldn't be, but like so many things audio, it depends...
Mostly in that as a system provider you're expected to include a suitable console, commensurate with the level of the system provided. If you can't make it a line item on the invoice it becomes an overhead expense.
Chip Self from Logic Systems had a PSW Study Hall article about ROI, and why large frame consoles seldom paid for themselves, but that article has been MIA for years.
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They shouldn't be, but like so many things audio, it depends...
Mostly in that as a system provider you're expected to include a suitable console, commensurate with the level of the system provided. If you can't make it a line item on the invoice it becomes an overhead expense.
Chip Self from Logic Systems had a PSW Study Hall article about ROI, and why large frame consoles seldom paid for themselves, but that article has been MIA for years.
You can use an SM58 on almost any gig in the past, present, or future. Even with rental customer abuse the typical cost is about $10-20/year. That's a money-maker. Even plastic powered speakers on sticks can be used for huge touring shows, for backstage fills and lobby systems.
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You can use an SM58 on almost any gig in the past, present, or future. Even with rental customer abuse the typical cost is about $10-20/year. That's a money-maker. Even plastic powered speakers on sticks can be used for huge touring shows, for backstage fills and lobby systems.
I absolutely agree, Scott. The small, durable items that go out all the time is where most of the profit is. In our shop, it's SRX712 used as SoS and our DBTech T4 rigs that consistently make money. Our VerTec rigs do, too, but the observation over the decades has been that smaller stuff makes more profit over the long term.
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Line Arrays and large format desks are cool. But, most of the profit in our business is generated by 57s, 58s, and 1402vlzs.
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1402vlzs.
I think that the market could use a better digital equivalent to the 1202 and 1402. Like a QU12 and QU14 version of the QU16 - something with a digital snake, processing, etc, but in a smaller form factor.
Maybe iPad based mixers have taken this market and I'm the odd man out for liking physical knobs...
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I think that the market could use a better digital equivalent to the 1202 and 1402. Like a QU12 and QU14 version of the QU16 - something with a digital snake, processing, etc, but in a smaller form factor.
Maybe iPad based mixers have taken this market and I'm the odd man out for liking physical knobs...
Hey, I still have a 1202 and a 1402. I even have a pair of those old Shure half rack mixers with the knobs and meters. I use em to drive the press box or feed to video. The meter let’s me know it’s working.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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The great thing about digital these days is you can now easily share consoles between acts and not be limited to 8 channels for the openers on a 48 channel desk.
Nonetheless, most tours require the opener have their own console.
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Maybe iPad based mixers have taken this market and I'm the odd man out for liking physical knobs...
I think lots of us like knobs, it's just hard to justify the cost to the people cutting the cheques.
-Russ
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I think that the market could use a better digital equivalent to the 1202 and 1402. Like a QU12 and QU14 version of the QU16 - something with a digital snake, processing, etc, but in a smaller form factor.
The QSC Touchmix-8 (https://www.qsc.com/live-sound/products/touchmix-mixers/touchmix-8/) seems to fill this niche, although it doesn't have a digital snake accessory.
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I like the QSC Touch Mix feature set, but they are really slow to work on because they only have one control wheel. The touchscreen isn't very responsive.
Certainly the tablet controlled shoebox mixers (MR, XR, Ui) fit the bill. but they're tough to drop with an inexperienced client.
The QSC Touchmix-8 (https://www.qsc.com/live-sound/products/touchmix-mixers/touchmix-8/) seems to fill this niche, although it doesn't have a digital snake accessory.
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Man, how did we go from talking about $1/4 million dollar consoles to $1,000 consoles? :o
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Man, how did we go from talking about $1/4 million dollar consoles to $1,000 consoles? :o
When the topic swerved to ROI.
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Okay, this is strictly a curiosity question. i'm not in the market for either of these personally and i don't need a quote. Just wondering what ballpark these desks are in pricewise.
Assume similar channel count/configuration [ish... i know "it depends"...]
Estimates plus or minus 10k US is fine. i just have no idea, and this is something not easily googled.
thanks in advance
lets assume AROUND 100 inputs
MSRP Pricing:
SD7 Surface/Engine: $180,075.00
DiGiCo SD-Rack: $8,250.00
DiGiCo SD-Rack: $8,250.00
= $196,575
SD5 Surface/Engine: $105,724.00
DiGiCo SD-Rack: $8,250.00
DiGiCo SD-Rack: $8,250.00
= $122,224
Avid S6L-32D w/192 Engine and Stage Rack: $104,780.00
Stage 64: $17,695.00
= $122,475
Avid S6L-24C w/112 Engine and Stage Rack: $50,470
Stage 64: $17,695.00
= $68,165
and the Yamaha prices aren't public so I can't post those, but the same ish setup will run over $210k MSRP
Again all of these numbers are the publicly posted MSRP... Obviously street price varies, but is always quite a bit less than MSRP.
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lets assume AROUND 100 inputs
MSRP Pricing:
SD7 Surface/Engine: $180,075.00
DiGiCo SD-Rack: $8,250.00
DiGiCo SD-Rack: $8,250.00
= $196,575
SD5 Surface/Engine: $105,724.00
DiGiCo SD-Rack: $8,250.00
DiGiCo SD-Rack: $8,250.00
= $122,224
Avid S6L-32D w/192 Engine and Stage Rack: $104,780.00
Stage 64: $17,695.00
= $122,475
Avid S6L-24C w/112 Engine and Stage Rack: $50,470
Stage 64: $17,695.00
= $68,165
and the Yamaha prices aren't public so I can't post those, but the same ish setup will run over $210k MSRP
Again all of these numbers are the publicly posted MSRP... Obviously street price varies, but is always quite a bit less than MSRP.
The best desk is the cheapest! I do also like the pm10, are they really that expensive? I was led to believe they were about £150,000, I would expect that might also be negotiable, though I don’t have any firm knowledge of that.
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Yamaha RIVAGE PM10 128x32 System retails for $164,999 USD
The best desk is the cheapest! I do also like the pm10, are they really that expensive? I was led to believe they were about £150,000, I would expect that might also be negotiable, though I don’t have any firm knowledge of that.
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Yamaha RIVAGE PM10 128x32 System retails for $164,999 USD
I did hear they updating pricing after the initial launch, so it's very possible that the price books I have for them are outdated.
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I do believe your SD7 price is $30k short...have you not included optics ?
Last time I priced one it was $250k or so..dual engine and dual Waves..not including servers
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can't speak for other regions - U.S. pricing hasn't changed since its debut.
I did hear they updating pricing after the initial launch, so it's very possible that the price books I have for them are outdated.
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Current MSRP for a dual engine SD7 "Quantum" is $279k with single HMA optics and 56x56 SD rack. Well over $320k with second HMA optics module, SD Rack and I/O cards.
Apparently, it's the business if you find yourself maxing out your SD7.
I do believe your SD7 price is $30k short...have you not included optics ?
Last time I priced one it was $250k or so..dual engine and dual Waves..not including servers
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FYI - because someone asked privately - a RIVAGE PM7 96x32 TWINLANe System retails for $127,399
Yamaha RIVAGE PM10 128x32 System retails for $164,999 USD
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I work in a classical concert house, we also have a lot of jazz/world music shows. The Vi's have done their job well past the last ten years, but are not reliable these days. The options for two new console systems are: SD7 Quantum / PM10 / S6L. S6L is not the first choice, because in Europe it is not on many riders. My question is: have there been any changes on the SD7 surface since it's release in 2007? What is the better option for FOH-babysitting in your opinion?
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I work in a classical concert house, we also have a lot of jazz/world music shows. The Vi's have done their job well past the last ten years, but are not reliable these days. The options for two new console systems are: SD7 Quantum / PM10 / S6L. S6L is not the first choice, because in Europe it is not on many riders. My question is: have there been any changes on the SD7 surface since it's release in 2007? What is the better option for FOH-babysitting in your opinion?
Please go to your profile and change your name to your real name
Mac
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As time goes by, I suspect that you will see the Avid S6l gain traction like they did with the profile. The Yamaha pm10 is great, easy to get to grips with, a true successor to the pm 5. Digico, well is Digico. You love them or hate them. Not really for me I have to say, but other love them.
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I work in a classical concert house, we also have a lot of jazz/world music shows. The Vi's have done their job well past the last ten years, but are not reliable these days. The options for two new console systems are: SD7 Quantum / PM10 / S6L. S6L is not the first choice, because in Europe it is not on many riders. My question is: have there been any changes on the SD7 surface since it's release in 2007? What is the better option for FOH-babysitting in your opinion?
To me the PM10 it is your most walk up friendly desk. People may not have it as their first choice but lots of high profile installs use them because they sound great, are reliable, and you can have someone up and going fast.
Digico is a nightmare if the engineer isn't familiar with them.
JF
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To me the PM10 it is your most walk up friendly desk. People may not have it as their first choice but lots of high profile installs use them because they sound great, are reliable, and you can have someone up and going fast.
Digico is a nightmare if the engineer isn't *INTIMATELY* familiar with them.
JF
Added a word, John, hope you don't mind. One needs to know a DigiCo better than one knows an ex's bad habits...
At a show a year or so ago I had a BE complain extensively about Avid consoles in toto, but based on my perception of the results, his having a non-Avid console wouldn't have helped what came out of the PA system.
The tour console was Profile. Presumably he had the clout to insist on the Midas or DigiCo or whatever it was he really wanted but for whatever reason did not get the desk he preferred.
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Added a word, John, hope you don't mind. One needs to know a DigiCo better than one knows an ex's bad habits...
At a show a year or so ago I had a BE complain extensively about Avid consoles in toto, but based on my perception of the results, his having a non-Avid console wouldn't have helped what came out of the PA system.
The tour console was Profile. Presumably he had the clout to insist on the Midas or DigiCo or whatever it was he really wanted but for whatever reason did not get the desk he preferred.
Industry is full of those, at whatever level. 😁
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Digico is a nightmare if the engineer isn't familiar with them.
JF
I took the Digico master class last year and we spent ten hours learning how to set up all the different routing and control options available on the regular SD series consoles.
We never even mixed anything.
The mind boggles.
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I took the Digico master class last year and we spent ten hours learning how to set up all the different routing and control options available on the regular SD series consoles.
We never even mixed anything.
The mind boggles.
I think the assumption is the mixing engineer knows how to mix. ; )
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Perhaps. I’ve mixed on Digico s from time to time. Fortunately I’ve always had someone to babysit that knew the routing so could put everything where I needed it. Is it just me or does the software resemble the SAW studio stuff? I know it’s not the same, but more than once I’ve run into the dreaded screen recalibration needed scenario. The compressors are ok, the eq is decent, (like dynamic eq, in my view more useful than multiband, but it’s not necessary on every channel,) just think the fx are really poor. I think the Yamaha pm 10 is really a much better solution, but I’m biased. The fx onboard are where we should be and some of the mediocre stuff out their just isn’t good enough bearing in mind we’ve had good digital fx for 30 years.
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Digico is a nightmare if the engineer isn't familiar with them.
DiGiCo's SD series makes a lot of choices that push the console fairly far down the ease-of-use to flexibility continuum, but the same could be said for line arrays as well (also a nightmare to deploy if the engineer isn't familiar with them, etc.). They are absolutely a tool you need to learn, but isn't that true of most of the really powerful tools we all use on a day-to-day basis, like EQ and dynamics?
I like them because they allow me to easily setup my show the way I want it to be setup, as opposed to how some console designer thinks it should be setup, with fewer of the gotchas of some other consoles (anyone ever accidentally setup a pre-fader group on a Vi console? It makes you looks like an idiot).
Except the FX. The DiGiCo reverb is...perfunctory.
-Russ
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I work in a classical concert house, we also have a lot of jazz/world music shows. The Vi's have done their job well past the last ten years, but are not reliable these days. The options for two new console systems are: SD7 Quantum / PM10 / S6L. S6L is not the first choice, because in Europe it is not on many riders. My question is: have there been any changes on the SD7 surface since it's release in 2007? What is the better option for FOH-babysitting in your opinion?
Classical: PM10
Pop/Rock: S6L
That’s the Short answer for me. Avid is on many riders, although mostly Profile, but if you tell them you got the S6L I don’t think many will complain.
Probably the 24c surface will be enough, leaves money for the waves Server you’ll need for riders and takes up less space in the audience for when the desk is pulled out of the booth.
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I took the Digico master class last year and we spent ten hours learning how to set up all the different routing and control options available on the regular SD series consoles.
We never even mixed anything.
The mind boggles.
I felt the same way. The Digico class needs to be about 3 days long. And it doesn't help any that all the Digico instructors approaches the class as if everyone already knows how the Digico consoles are set up and run.
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Classical: PM10/CL5
Pop/Rock: S6L
Broadway: Digico
That’s the Short answer for me. Avid is on many riders, although mostly Profile, but if you tell them you got the S6L I don’t think many will complain.
Probably the 24c surface will be enough, leaves money for the waves Server you’ll need for riders and takes up less space in the audience for when the desk is pulled out of the booth.
Added some extra options there for you. ;)