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Title: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 15, 2011, 11:24:39 AM
I would like some input on my power distro setup...

I built my own distro system.  The whole thing consists of:
A 100' 10/4 SOOW feeder that is split into two sections: 1 30' and 1 70' with L14-30 connectors.

I have a small panel with a 220v 30amp breaker that allows me to use many different ways to tap power: i.e. bare wires to wire into a panel, clamps to attach to lugs, etc...

I built a two rack space box that has 8 20amp carling switch/breakers wired to 6 outlets in the back and an L14-20 connecter in the front that feeds my stage stringer (a 75' 12/4 SJOOW cable with four duplex boxes with outlets wired on two legs for 120v lines).  All in all, it's pretty cool.  It doesn't look homemade, and it seems pretty safe.

I run my system in bars; often with no access to good power. So what I've done is made a cable with two edison plugs that feed my distro.  I use a meter to find two outlets that are on different legs, so I am always sure I have 220.  The only time this gives me trouble is when they have GFCI outlets.  Those can't share a common neutral.

Does anybody have a better solution than this, and if not, is there any way to get around the GFCI problem without removing them?

Thanks for your input!
Clint
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Tim Tyler on December 15, 2011, 11:39:33 AM
Prepare yourself...
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 15, 2011, 12:32:10 PM
I would like some input on my power distro setup...

I built my own distro system.  The whole thing consists of:
A 100' 10/4 SOOW feeder that is split into two sections: 1 30' and 1 70' with L14-30 connectors.

I have a small panel with a 220v 30amp breaker that allows me to use many different ways to tap power: i.e. bare wires to wire into a panel, clamps to attach to lugs, etc...

I built a two rack space box that has 8 20amp carling switch/breakers wired to 6 outlets in the back and an L14-20 connecter in the front that feeds my stage stringer (a 75' 12/4 SJOOW cable with four duplex boxes with outlets wired on two legs for 120v lines).  All in all, it's pretty cool.  It doesn't look homemade, and it seems pretty safe.

I run my system in bars; often with no access to good power. So what I've done is made a cable with two edison plugs that feed my distro.  I use a meter to find two outlets that are on different legs, so I am always sure I have 220.  The only time this gives me trouble is when they have GFCI outlets.  Those can't share a common neutral.

Does anybody have a better solution than this, and if not, is there any way to get around the GFCI problem without removing them?

Thanks for your input!
Clint
Wow.

Please stop doing what you're doing with trying to find outlets on different phases.  Attempting to defeat GFCI protection is one of a dozen bags of hurt you are opening.

If you're plugging into Edison plugs anyway, get regular extension cords, or build a "Poor Man's Distro" (Google it). 

This all falls into the "If you have to ask the question, you're not qualified to do it" bucket.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Charlie Zureki on December 15, 2011, 12:37:45 PM
I would like some input on my power distro setup...

I built my own distro system.  The whole thing consists of:
A 100' 10/4 SOOW feeder that is split into two sections: 1 30' and 1 70' with L14-30 connectors.

I have a small panel with a 220v 30amp breaker that allows me to use many different ways to tap power: i.e. bare wires to wire into a panel, clamps to attach to lugs, etc...

I built a two rack space box that has 8 20amp carling switch/breakers wired to 6 outlets in the back and an L14-20 connecter in the front that feeds my stage stringer (a 75' 12/4 SJOOW cable with four duplex boxes with outlets wired on two legs for 120v lines).  All in all, it's pretty cool.  It doesn't look homemade, and it seems pretty safe.

I run my system in bars; often with no access to good power. So what I've done is made a cable with two edison plugs that feed my distro.  I use a meter to find two outlets that are on different legs, so I am always sure I have 220.  The only time this gives me trouble is when they have GFCI outlets.  Those can't share a common neutral.

Does anybody have a better solution than this, and if not, is there any way to get around the GFCI problem without removing them?

Thanks for your input!
Clint

  Besides the fact that your rig is not code...if you cause any damage to the buildings that you are giggin' or the occupants of that building....you may be looking at a lengthy stay at the nearest house of Corrections and, Civil suits that will keep you broke for the rest of your life.

  Have Fun... gamble a little....but, with MONEY, not people's safety.

   Hammer
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 15, 2011, 01:17:37 PM
Sorry
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 15, 2011, 01:27:16 PM
OK...  I just googled "poor man's distro".  I am sure that what I'm doing is safer than any of those.  I realize that what I'm doing is not perfect, but I'm not running in a theater with 208v 3phase and cam lug taps.  I'm running in corner bars with wiring that has 75% of all the outlets on the same fuse with knob and tube wiring!!!  So when I find two outlets that sum 220 on the hot legs, I know that I have two separate circuits. I have never blown a breaker in the middle of a show with this setup.

I don't ever defeat GFCI circuits!  I thought maybe somebody might know a way to incorporate a system like mine while using them.  If I never did anything because I had to ask for help, I'd still wear diapers.  I take pride in my system, and want it to be as safe and efficient as possible.  I hope there are guys here who can help me with stuff I don't know.  A moron wouldn't ask.  You don't have to agree with me, but you don't have to be condescending either.

Clint....

What you're doing is illegal and unsafe.  You are taking responsibility for other people's lives and property without the proper know-how and gear.  You should stop right now.  When Charlie says you could end up in jail, forfeit everything you own and worse, he's not  kidding.

I don't think it's condescending  to come down hard on someone acting as foolish and irresponsible as you.  And now that this dialogue is part of the "eternal internet", a simple
Google search of your name by any lawyers engaged to prosecute your case shows that you've been informed of the consequences of your actions.

Do the smart thing.  Swallow your pride and keep everyone safe. 
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 15, 2011, 01:27:28 PM
Sorry
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 15, 2011, 01:29:20 PM
Thanks for the heads up.  If it get too ugly, I'll just delete the post.
\\Now that the post has been quoted it cannot be deleted.  You're stuck with having advertised yourself on a public forum.  Sorry.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Stuart Pendleton on December 15, 2011, 01:34:56 PM
People here are not being condescending when they are critical of these types of devices. They are being safe.  NO ONE on a public forum is going to give you advice on doing something that is either dangerous, illegal or both.  This is a forum for professionals and those that choose to learn from them.  If you don't want the answers you are getting stop asking the questions.  The answers won't change just because you need or want them to.  If doing something the right way is out of the question, then don't do it at all. Lives and fortunes are at stake when you build a distro.

If the system you have doesn't work in the venues you play, you have two choices. You can quit playing there or you can get a different system that does work there.  Trying to make a system that needs more juice than the gig can provide work in that situation is asking for trouble.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 15, 2011, 01:37:51 PM
I am not worried about being quoted, or found out...  I thought I was trying to do a better safer job.  I don't see the problem with my distro.  I realize that doesn't make it legal, but having a fully protected sytem with high quality components seems better than 18 gauge extension cords.

Oh well...
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 15, 2011, 01:39:34 PM
I am not worried about being quoted, or found out...  I thought I was trying to do a better safer job.  I don't see the problem with my distro.  I realize that doesn't make it legal, but having a fully protected sytem with high quality components seems beter than 18 gauge extension cords.

Oh well...

And now you've on record admitting that you know it's illegal.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 15, 2011, 01:40:26 PM
OK...  I just googled "poor man's distro".  I am sure that what I'm doing is safer than any of those.
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/10116/85383/503/#msg_85383


The point of the poor man's distro is to tie the grounds together of multiple circuits, but other than that, just pass the hot and neutral through.  The link above is done with off the shelf rack mount strips that are grounded together.  This is MUCH safer than what you're proposing, and is fully compliant with GFCIs.


I realize that what I'm doing is not perfect, but I'm not running in a theater with 208v 3phase and cam lug taps.  I'm running in corner bars with wiring that has 75% of all the outlets on the same fuse with knob and tube wiring!!!  So when I find two outlets that sum 220 on the hot legs, I know that I have two separate circuits. I have never blown a breaker in the middle of a show with this setup.
If you're acknowledging that what you're doing is "not perfect", which is another way to say "inadequate" or "wrong", then it doesn't matter what level you are operating at - you're contributing to a bad situation.

I don't ever defeat GFCI circuits!  I thought maybe somebody might know a way to incorporate a system like mine while using them. 
There is no way to do this without defeating the GFCI protection.

If I never did anything because I had to ask for help, I'd still wear diapers.  I take pride in my system, and want it to be as safe and efficient as possible.  I hope there are guys here who can help me with stuff I don't know.  A moron wouldn't ask.  You don't have to agree with me, but you don't have to be condescending either.
I'm not being condescending - I'm suggesting that what you propose to do is frought with problems - the depth of which can't be explained in an internet post.  You'll find that on this forum cutting corners on either power or rigging isn't tolerated.

Reason for edit:  Formatting.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 15, 2011, 01:55:32 PM
And now you've on record admitting that you know it's illegal.
No... I didn't.  If I knew that it was, I would gladly admit it, and stop!!!  I'm not trying to avoid doing something the right way; quite the contrary!

I feel like I just asked what everybody thought about bose speakers on an audiophile site!  LOL

If somebody can delete this thread, please do.  I had no idea I was opening pandora's box.  I was genuinely looking for a better way to do what I'm doing, and I apologize for coming off as an idiot.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Stuart Pendleton on December 15, 2011, 01:59:28 PM
Clint, no problem with asking something you don't understand and then learning from mistakes.  The problem is that power and rigging are both safety issues.  Cutting corners on these areas is a serious mistake.  Folks aren't trying to come down on you personally, but are trying to save lives.  You can get a lot of good advice from folks here if you ask a questions they can answer without risking safety.

Why don't you ask "I have a rig that needs more power than I can easily find in some clubs.  What do I do about that?"  or something along those lines.  The responses will be a little cooler, and you might get the help you want.

We welcome newbies, but are quick to point out serious issues.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 15, 2011, 02:00:34 PM
No... I didn't.  If I knew that it was, I would gladly admit it, and stop!!!  I'm not trying to avoid doing something the right way; quite the contrary!

I feel like I just asked what everybody thought about bose speakers on an audiophile site!  LOL

If somebody can delete this thread, please do.  I had no idea I was opening pandora's box.  I was genuinely looking for a better way to do what I'm doing, and I apologize for coming off as an idiot.

I doubt that anybody thinks you're an idiot.  Doing what you're doing may well be idiotic, but you can stop.  The criticism of your "distro" is deservedly harsh as there is great danger inherent in doing what you're doing. 

"Friends don't let friends operate unsafe gear......"
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 15, 2011, 03:53:51 PM
"Friends don't let friends operate unsafe gear......"

+1 I wouldn't take this stuff personally, its compassion towards fellow techs if anything. For every engineer or electrician or tech out there who has killed themselves because they were using unsafe practices, there is another one saying to themselves "I wish I had told him to stop cutting corners on safety".
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 15, 2011, 05:06:30 PM
No... I didn't.  If I knew that it was, I would gladly admit it, and stop!!!  I'm not trying to avoid doing something the right way; quite the contrary!

I feel like I just asked what everybody thought about bose speakers on an audiophile site!  LOL

If somebody can delete this thread, please do.  I had no idea I was opening pandora's box.  I was genuinely looking for a better way to do what I'm doing, and I apologize for coming off as an idiot.

Clint,

Now that you're heard the collective knowledge of this site... what are your plans? Having a poor man's distro (sharing the common ground, and keeping the hots and neutrals separate) would be a good first step, and so is that the route you want to go? Or go for a full 50A distro with range plug? There's lots of options to work with, but it is important to make sure that the course you go is not only legal, but safe for all involved.

I can assure you, though, that you will feel a lot better knowing you're doing things the right way!

-Ray Aberle
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 15, 2011, 06:10:56 PM
Clint,
I saw the title and knew this would be an interesting read. Try not to be insulted by a group of people whose interests are to protect and educate a community, which now includes you.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Charlie Zureki on December 15, 2011, 06:53:17 PM
Clint,
I saw the title and knew this would be an interesting read. Try not to be insulted by a group of people whose interests are to protect and educate a community, which now includes you.

  +1 to Mr. Leonard's response.

   Clint,
   I want to say that I could have worded my response a bit more carefully. I'm not really such a grouchy ole' bastard...  I'm just pissed off, and have been for many years that Bars/clubs/pubs tend to direct little Sound Co.s /Bands/ Guys that provide Entertainment Lighting into areas that they can't afford based on their paycheck size from these bars.... and, that is: kludgeing up some home-built Electrical Distro.

   If these Bars/Clubs/Pubs were anywhere near being interested in taking pride and care of the entertainment that they host...they'd provide a stage with safe and ample Electrical Service.

   But, I NEVER met a Bar owner that wasn't an a-hole.

   So...Clint,  post your location, and maybe, someone on this fine site that is in a close proximity to you can help you get your distro to code.  Then, I'd suggest you make friends with a local Electrician that can teach you how to do your tie-ins safely...or do them for you at a really low rate.

  Cheers,
  Hammer

   
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 15, 2011, 10:39:58 PM
So to be clear, the problems with my distro are:

Shared neutral and my unconventional tapping technique by summing two Edison plugs to achieve 220 volts.

I never need more than 30amps 220 volts, so my main breaker and 10/4 SOOW feeder is sufficient and there's no need to upgrade it.

I'm not sure why the shared neutral is a problem... My home and the shop where I work both have shared neutrals. It's a rather common practice. If it is illegal, I'll find another way. Incidentally I have two 15 amp breakers in the breakout box, so its redundant protection. The only issue I've encountered is with GFCI circuits. I've researched it but it can't make it work; save removing them temporarily, during which time, they're not available to anyone else. This was the original motivation for my question.

I thought it was a safe solution to a real problem that causes a lot of trouble, i.e. blown breakers that interrupt shows, overdrawing circuits, etc...

Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Steve Cook on December 15, 2011, 11:31:22 PM
Clint,
I saw the title and knew this would be an interesting read. Try not to be insulted by a group of people whose interests are to protect and educate a community, which now includes you.

This forum has been such an asset to myself and my band, the main one being the vigilance that I have towards safety at our gigs.  And it's come from threads like these.  I may have upset some people in my band over a frantic 'NO!' and have gotten into heated arguments over things at gigs in previous bands, but I will continue to make certain we practice a top level of safety at all of our events. 

I really like the fact that in my current band, we're all on the same page and focused on doing things the right way.  And it's all due to the helpful warnings from this forum.

Thanks guys.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Chuck Simon on December 16, 2011, 12:07:35 AM
[quote author=Charlie Zureki link=topic=135184.msg1265763#msg1265763 date=1323993197

   If these Bars/Clubs/Pubs were anywhere near being interested in taking pride and care of the entertainment that they host...they'd provide a stage with safe and ample Electrical Service.

   But, I NEVER met a Bar owner that wasn't an a-hole.
[/quote]

After 30 years in this business, I'm sorry to say that I could not agree more with that opinion!  Sad but true.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Michael Ardai, N1IST on December 16, 2011, 08:50:01 AM
The other hazard with the dual-edison setup is that as soon as you plug one in, the other male plug ends up with exposed energized pins if you have any load connected to the distro.
/mike
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 16, 2011, 10:03:19 AM
So to be clear, the problems with my distro are:

Shared neutral and my unconventional tapping technique by summing two Edison plugs to achieve 220 volts.

I never need more than 30amps 220 volts, so my main breaker and 10/4 SOOW feeder is sufficient and there's no need to upgrade it.

I'm not sure why the shared neutral is a problem... My home and the shop where I work both have shared neutrals. It's a rather common practice. If it is illegal, I'll find another way. Incidentally I have two 15 amp breakers in the breakout box, so its redundant protection. The only issue I've encountered is with GFCI circuits. I've researched it but it can't make it work; save removing them temporarily, during which time, they're not available to anyone else. This was the original motivation for my question.

I thought it was a safe solution to a real problem that causes a lot of trouble, i.e. blown breakers that interrupt shows, overdrawing circuits, etc...
Here are some pointers.  This is a non-exhaustive list and is not necessarily specific direction to a complete, legal, safe system.  If you're in the USA, the general governing body is the NEC, and everything you do is subject to the official having jurisdiction at your venue -  a city inspector, state inspector, etc.

- Direct tie-in:
Unless you're a licensed electrician with legal permission to do work on the electrical service at your venue - you can't do it.  Period.  It's incredibly dangerous to work on a live panel - especially the main lugs side where there's a ton of current available.  200A 120/208/240 volts will melt any screwdriver or wrench that gets shorted, and can ionize the air around the main lugs, causing an arc flash.  Do a YouTube search for arc flash if you need any more discouragement for this. 

Apart from the very real physical dangers, there are a ton of liability issues as well.  There's a saying:  "Whoever touched it last, owns it."  Any future electrical problem the venue may have, up to and including a building fire, will likely be blamed on anyone who the lawyers can find.  If an unqualified person did work in the building, they're shark bait.

This leaves basically 2 options:  Use the venue's available service, whether one or more Edison outlets, or a high current plug designed for that purpose, such as a NEMA 14-50, or hire an electrician to do the hard-wire service connection and disconnection.

-Edison circuits:
For Edison circuits, you can get many of the benefits of a distro with the "Poor Man's Distro" principle - which is really nothing more than shorting all the grounds together from your supply circuits.  This solves most of the ground loop issues you will have, and does not open you up to legal liability, as you are using building equipment "as-is".  Any other attempted combination of Edison circuits into either higher current (paralleling same phase circuits) or higher voltage (cross phase) is dangerous, and really doesn't accomplish anything anyway, unless you have 208/240 volt only devices.  You're still limited to the power available from the sum of the Edison circuits, so you might as well just plug in directly.

- Higher-current outlets:
The NEMA 14-50R is a popular receptacle for stage power purposes as it gives basically 6 20A 120V circuits on a 4-wire plug with 4/4 SOOW cord supplying your distro.  Anything smaller than this borders on a waste of time as a 14-20 is only 2 circuits, and a 14-30 is only 4 15A circuts.  The cost difference to the venue between a 14-50 and something smaller is very little, so if you decide to ask your regular venues to install heavier power for you, this is what you want.

- Partial energization:
All supply wires must be energized or de-energized simultaneously via a multi-pole breaker or disconnect.  Bonding Edison circuits together breaks this rule and is dangerous.  Someone could turn off what they thought was the supply, and work on your system, only to find that it's still energized through another source.

- Shared neutrals:
Shared neutrals are acceptable in some circumstances when the supply wires sharing the neutral are simultaneously switched.  There are some caveats here, depending on load type and neutral wire sizing.

- Overcurrent protection:
Circuit breakers are there to protect the supply wiring.  Any time you're stepping down the ampacity of the cabling (going from a 200A company switch to #4 tails to your 50A distro for example), you need to have appropriate overcurrent protection for the wire size.  This almost always means you need a master breaker rated to protect your feeder cable, and downstream breakers to protect the Edison circuits and L14 or L21 breakout circuits.

- GFCI circuits:
If they're there, they need to stay there.  If you're having trouble with these, your gear is damaged - failing MOVs in surge supressors, etc.  Get your gear fixed.  There's no reason you can't use GFCI circuits.  If you're using a distro with a generator or outside, GFCI protection may be required.  Be prepared for that.


- Inspection/listing:
It is completely possible to build an up to code home made distro, with the right knowledge.  The problem is, even if you do, how does the world know you did it right?  Who inspected and certified it?  Is it really worth it in the end compared to using a pre-fabbed product such as the Peavey distro, or MotionLabs stuff?  Even if you're never "inspected", how do you go from "I think it's right." to "I know it's right."? The devil is in the details, and while it's not generally hard to get it "working", it's quite another matter to get it "safe and correct".

-Inadequate/wrong/unsafe building wiring:
If something looks bad, don't use it.  It's far better to downsize your gig to fit on a safe supply than to risk personal injury or property damage.  There can be a "The show must go on" attitude, which sounds admirable, but if that means putting your band and your audience in a proverbial (or God forbid, acutal) burning building, it's not admirable.  If it's the situation really can't meet your needs, either get better venues, or if you really must play there, get venue permission, then hire an electrician yourself to install the NEMA 14-50R plug mentioned above.

- Testing:
Always test everything for appropriate voltage and wiring.  Even fairly new construction in "nice" buildings can have problems.  If it's wrong, notify the venue and don't use it.  Don't try to fix it yourself, or you may "own it".

- The Ego principle:
It's really fun to bring a huge pile of gear to your gig.  It's fun to turn it up to 11 and have 40,000 watts of light blasting the stage and/or dance area.  The economic reality is that if you can't get adequate power to run your 12/side line array over 12/side double 18" PA in the 75-cap bar, you've brought too much stuff.  Trying to bend the rules perpetuates unsafe expectiations, and eventually someone will lose.  Don't let that be you.

Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 16, 2011, 10:04:20 AM
The other hazard with the dual-edison setup is that as soon as you plug one in, the other male plug ends up with exposed energized pins if you have any load connected to the distro.
/mike
I don't think so...  There would have to be faulty wiring for that to happen.  I always make sure the polarity AND ground is working before using them.

Not all bar owners are goobers.  I've even gotten one to install an L14-30 recepticle outside so I don't have to remove the GFCI outlets.

I'm in Northeast Ohio, by the way.  I work from Cleveland to Columbus to Ashtabula.

When I can afford it, I'm going to get a 10K generator, so this will be a moot issue!

For all of the excessive electrical regulations, you would think that this would be something that was standardized by now.  I'm amazed there is not some code that dictates the wiring of audio systems like the wiring of a stove...

My system in very efficient and draws little power compared to the old days.  All of my lights are LED, my amps are digital... Back in the day, my par cans alone tripped every breaker/fuse that I could find!  When I run my whole system for festivals (sound & lights), I can do so with a 5000 watt generator and not blow anything.

I stand by my system.  I still think it is a much safer system than a bunch of extension cords that could end up on the same circuit anyway!  That's not to say there isn't room for improvement.  But until someone can show me WHY my method is dangerous, I'm leaving it alone.

I will post a schematic later to demonstrate what I'm doing.  I should also make it clear that none of my equipment is running 220 volts.  My crown aps could be run 220, but I haven't done that.  Essentially, all I'm doing is creating my own sub-panel off the main panel to allow me to protect everyone AND my equipment.  If there is some potential fo back feed from one of the 110v lines, that would be a definate concern...

I like having spirited debates.  I like learning from guys who have been doing this a lot longer than me.  I have a lot of respect for experience.  But there can be new things too.  I have one tech who works for me and swears that digital is a fad, which will pass.  THAT is what I have no patience for... 
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 16, 2011, 10:16:23 AM
I don't think so...  There would have to be faulty wiring for that to happen.  I always make sure the polarity AND ground is working before using them.
You don't know that there isn't faulty wiring in the building, and it's not always possible to test for it - loose neutrals, neutral/ground reverse, etc.
Not all bar owners are goobers.  I've even gotten one to install an L14-30 recepticle outside so I don't have to remove the GFCI outlets.
I'm assuming you haven't read my other reply yet, so I won't beat you up too badly, but DON'T DO THIS!!! DO NOT MODIFY BUILDING POWER!!!
When I can afford it, I'm going to get a 10K generator, so this will be a moot issue!
The generator you want if you want 10KW is $15,000.  Construction generators are garbage and not suitable for event power.

For all of the excessive electrical regulations, you would think that this would be something that was standardized by now.  I'm amazed there is not some code that dictates the wiring of audio systems like the wiring of a stove...
It is.  What's not standard that you're referring to?  In addition to the general NEC, there are specific sections that relate to entertainment power.  There are venues that are not up to code/don't have your particular needs in mind, but that doesn't mean there aren't standard methods and regulations.

My system in very efficient and draws little power compared to the old days.  All of my lights are LED, my amps are digital... Back in the day, my par cans alone tripped every breaker/fuse that I could find!  When I run my whole system for festivals (sound & lights), I can do so with a 5000 watt generator and not blow anything.

I stand by my system.  I still think it is a much safer system than a bunch of extension cords that could end up on the same circuit anyway!  That's not to say there isn't room for improvement.  But until someone can show me WHY my method is dangerous, I'm leaving it alone.
It's illegal - that's clear.  If you still don't care, that's telling.

I will post a schematic later to demonstrate what I'm doing.  I should also make it clear that none of my equipment is running 220 volts. 
Which means you have absolutely no reason to try to bond Edison circuits together - it gains you nothing, and is dangerous and illegal.

My crown aps could be run 220, but I haven't done that.  Essentially, all I'm doing is creating my own sub-panel off the main panel to allow me to protect everyone AND my equipment. 
Essentially what you're doing is shortcutting for wiring convenice (specifically the bonding Edison thing) without regards to safety ramifications.  The fact that you don't understand/don't believe that this is not OK doesn't change the reality.

I like having spirited debates.  I like learning from guys who have been doing this a lot longer than me.  I have a lot of respect for experience.  But there can be new things too.  I have one tech who works for me and swears that digital is a fad, which will pass.  THAT is what I have no patience for...
I like having people not die.  Is that a fad?
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Charlie Zureki on December 16, 2011, 10:36:27 AM
OK... Per your last post..... Even after all of the good advice that you've been given, per your request, you are apparently going to ignore it....

  It is Illegal to circumvent, or alter any safety device such as a GFCI outlet.

  Your homebuilt distro does not conform to the NEC codes..for many reasons, including energized circuit indicators.

  Do it you way, you are apparently willing to accept the liability. As other's have pointed out that now, you've made your case public via the web. 

  By the way...whatever Amps you were referring to...they are not Digital, they're analogue, just like ALL of the other Amplifiers by ALL of the other Manufacturers in the World. Don't let Marketing Hype teach you!

  This site is a great place to learn about Sound Systems, its components and the Arts and Science of Audio. General inquirys about related subjects are always welcome.

   Good Luck, Good Bye...I'm done
  Hammer
   

   
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 16, 2011, 11:44:53 AM
So, alright... I’ll acquiesce.

You have pointed out a serious problem I overlooked when tying the edison plugs together, and then someone working on the subsequent circuit...

My honest question is this: Why is it OK to run common neutrals that are on seperate circuits in a panel?  I have several of them in my house, where they ran 14/3 romex...  The Red is on 15 amp circuit and the Black is another.  Those breakers are not tied together. One can be turned off while the other is still live.  If the neutral was removed, that would be a burner.  In my system, that wouldn't be a problem, because there's another neutral and ground, which are all bonded in the panel.  just sayin'...  I WELCOME the flaws to be exposed. 

Please understand, I'm not trying to defend my system.  I'm trying to make it as safe as I can. Legal would be good too.  That's why I asked. 

I'm going back to the drawing board and when I reinvent the wheel, I'll see what you guys think.  My wounds should be healed by then!   ;D

OK... my amps are not digital...  but they're marketed as such.  They're MUCH more efficient than my old Peavey CS amps, which allows me to have a bigger system with less power.

Hammer, how old are you???  I have this vision that you're 88 years old and really grumpy.  I bet I'm wrong...  Don't hate me because I'm a young whipper-snapper! (Which I'm not)
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 16, 2011, 11:54:59 AM
So, alright... I’ll acquiesce.

You have pointed out a serious problem I overlooked when tying the edison plugs together, and then someone working on the subsequent circuit...

My honest question is this: Why is it OK to run common neutrals that are on seperate circuits in a panel?  I have several of them in my house, where they ran 14/3 romex...  The Red is on 15 amp circuit and the Black is another.  Those breakers are not tied together. One can be turned off while the other is still live.  If the neutral was removed, that would be a burner.  In my system, that wouldn't be a problem, because there's another neutral and ground, which are all bonded in the panel.  just sayin'...  I WELCOME the flaws to be exposed. 
The short answer is that it's not OK anymore. NEC article 210.4B "Disconnecting Means. Each multiwire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates."

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf/rop/70-a2010-ropdraft.pdf

Please understand, I'm not trying to defend my system.  I'm trying to make it as safe as I can. Legal would be good too.  That's why I asked. 

I'm going back to the drawing board and when I reinvent the wheel, I'll see what you guys think.  My wounds should be healed by then!   ;D
I understand the desire to exercise knowledge and build something, but I would suggest not reinventing the wheel - the existing legal wheels out there aren't really that much money, and will be less likely to be problematic.

Once again - combining multiple Edison circuits into a "distro" offers no benefit and lots of downside over using them separately.  Whatever your future power plans may be, please don't do this.

Edit:  Shpelign
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 16, 2011, 01:05:09 PM
Tom,
I'm afraid your years of wisdom and desire to be more than helpful have been overlooked and are unappreciated by the OP.

I have worked many venues of all sizes and types over the past 45 years. I may have seen the worst, and I may have seen the best, but one thing that stands out in my mind is that smaller venues, those up to 5-600 people, seldom if ever need a distro for stage power.

I have not seen, played in, or worked sound in any small venue where 2-3 20A circuits were not enough to power the equipment required to do the job. And by equipment I mean sound, backline, and lighting. I have worked many outdoor "concerts on the common" in this area where all that has been available are 20A outlets centrally located 50 to 100 feet from the stage. In every one of those cases I have been forced to revert to using extension cords.

But here's where I'm headed.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using quality #12 extesion cords if the need calls for them. And by quality I mean cords that are used in construction and cost $180 for a 50 foot cord. You can usually find these at any good hardware store and they are easily found because they are almost always yellow. The cords I use in these instances are #12 with power indicators built into the receptical end and range in length from 25' to 100'.

Let's not overlook the "distribution" either. You don't need a fancy box to spread power and in the cases I mention above the norm is to use plug strips attached to the ends of the quality extension cables. In my case I have a number of 20A computer grade 1U strips mounted in a small rack mount case. This get's the job done, and it's safe.

For larger venues then I will utilize the site electricians, stage hands and other people who are properly equipped and trained to tap the house circuits.

And even though I have worked with and around high voltages since age 12 (building amplifiers), and even though I can wire a home for 200A, I am still not qualified to distribute AC directly from the venues panel.

Boston and this state adhere to the strictest code and laws in the country. The were written and implimented for a reason.

We as a group are powerless to prevent the OP from following his path to self destruction. We, and especially you have done all that we can within this thread. I can only suggest that if the OP feels that having a distro makes him more valualable in some manner, gives him a certain amount of penashe, then I suggest he re-evaluate his needs. A poor mans distro and yellow extension cords does not indicate a lack of skill. 
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 16, 2011, 01:40:06 PM
I don't think so...  There would have to be faulty wiring for that to happen.  I always make sure the polarity AND ground is working before using them.

You're not groking the concept.  The way you're going about this means at any voltage riding on the neutral of the first Edison "feeder" will present voltage on the neutral pin of the second Edison, whether or not it's plugged in.  IOW, a person handling the second "feeder" could be receive  a shock from that connector's neutral pin.  This is illegal and unsafe.

Quote
Not all bar owners are goobers.  I've even gotten one to install an L14-30 recepticle outside so I don't have to remove the GFCI outlets.

You've found the only non-goober, non-asshole bar owner in the USA.  Have him bronzed and put on a pedestal in a public place.

Quote
I'm in Northeast Ohio, by the way.  I work from Cleveland to Columbus to Ashtabula.

When I can afford it, I'm going to get a 10K generator, so this will be a moot issue!

For all of the excessive electrical regulations, you would think that this would be something that was standardized by now.  I'm amazed there is not some code that dictates the wiring of audio systems like the wiring of a stove...

Sorry about the Cowlumbus thing, but it's not your fault (nudge, wink, insert humorous smiley here)

The electrical code is not "excessive."  It exists because doing things in ways not permitted by Code have killed thousands of people and destroyed $millions of property.  The National Fire Protection Association has standing committees that revise their Codes on a continuous basis.  This isn't something wacky guys with propeller beanies and slide rulers do to inconvenience us, it's done to keep people alive.  It really is that simple.  If you have a personal political agenda regarding "excessive regulation" I strongly urge you to "get over it" in regard to electricity.

Quote
My system in very efficient and draws little power compared to the old days.  All of my lights are LED, my amps are digital... Back in the day, my par cans alone tripped every breaker/fuse that I could find!  When I run my whole system for festivals (sound & lights), I can do so with a 5000 watt generator and not blow anything.

Does this breaker tripping with LED pars happen in only 1 venue or *every* venue?  I don't know how many cans you're running but it is certainly possible to overload a 15 amp circuit with them; I've done it.  In most bars the outlets the band uses are on the same breakers as the frozen drink machine or the dozen neon beer signs or even the parking lot lights.  I would not use tripping breakers as an indication that there is something defective about the bar power, only that the circuits you are using have existing loads on them that you can't change.

Quote
I stand by my system.  I still think it is a much safer system than a bunch of extension cords that could end up on the same circuit anyway!  That's not to say there isn't room for improvement.  But until someone can show me WHY my method is dangerous, I'm leaving it alone.

Fine, do what you want.  You're exposed, legally, for the work you do, the "product" you designed and manufactured, and that you promote and use practices in violation of industry best practices and the NFPA 70 (National Electrical Code).  I strongly urge you to spend some quality time at you local library with the Code.  Particularly Chapters 1-4, and then Articles 520, 525 and 640.  Your use of a generator is also covered by the Code but the Article number escapes me at the moment.

Quote
I will post a schematic later to demonstrate what I'm doing.  I should also make it clear that none of my equipment is running 220 volts.  My crown aps could be run 220, but I haven't done that.  Essentially, all I'm doing is creating my own sub-panel off the main panel to allow me to protect everyone AND my equipment.  If there is some potential fo back feed from one of the 110v lines, that would be a definate concern...

I like having spirited debates.  I like learning from guys who have been doing this a lot longer than me.  I have a lot of respect for experience.  But there can be new things too.  I have one tech who works for me and swears that digital is a fad, which will pass.  THAT is what I have no patience for...

Don't post the schematic.  Unless your description of the design is vastly different than the reality (you're stubborn, not stupid), you've told us enough that we can deem the design and implementation to be non-compliant and potentially dangerous.  Really, stop now.  This isn't a debate, spirited or otherwise.  It's an attempt to keep you from contributing to the TV News Machine and premature use of professional services... of firemen and morticians.  Seriously.

Tim Mc

ps.  yesterday I had lunch with a member of the NFPA committee on pyro.  If the members of the electrical committee are as dedicated and knowledgeable as him, I have no question about their sincerity or commitment to keeping fools like us alive and well.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Chuck Simon on December 16, 2011, 01:42:50 PM
Quote
A poor mans distro and yellow extension cords does not indicate a lack of skill. 


But why the yellow extension cords?  Why not get some SJO cable and some good hubble connectors. Or this:
http://www.filmtools.com/10st12sjoeco.html

It would definitely be less than your quoted price of $180.00 per 50 foot and be more professional.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 16, 2011, 01:47:29 PM
No more summed edisons...  I'm not worried about impressing anybody at shows with my distro...  I want a nice neat stage with safe wiring.  It's why I asked.

I don't know what an OP is, but I'm guessing it's not complimentary...

Thanks...
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 16, 2011, 01:51:12 PM
...So... I'm guessing nobody wants to see my homemade flash pots???   Just kidding!!!
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Mac Kerr on December 16, 2011, 02:05:39 PM
I don't know what an OP is, but I'm guessing it's not complimentary...

Thanks...

OP stands for Original Poster, that would be you. As to whether or not this is complementary, I'll leave that to you to decide.

Mac
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on December 16, 2011, 02:06:43 PM
Methinks Clint got roasted by his own power distro... and it wasn't even plugged in at the time.  ;D

Really, the only safe ways are to get a commercially-made power distro OR use a homemade distro that complies with all codes and is inspected. Yes, it is possible to get a custom-made temporary distro inspected, though you might face an uphill battle locating a qualified inspector. (And "qualified" doesn't mean just that he has the skills, but that he is authorized by some agency to do so.) Chances are, a custom distro that meets all codes and is inspected will end up costing the same or more as a commercial distro. If none of the commercial distros meet your unique needs, hire a panel shop to build you one. They for sure can get it inspected.

As for plugging it in... well, that's what electricians are for. If you find your venue lacks the proper connectivity, you will need to hire an electrician to tie it in for you. Don't expect the venue to pay for that unless it's in your contract, or you've priced your services with that in mind.

P.S. -- "OP" just stands for Original Poster. As in the one who posted the first post in the thread. Or it could stand for Obstinate Peon... nah, we won't put that label on you. :)
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 16, 2011, 02:13:28 PM
Methinks Clint got roasted by his own power distro... and it wasn't even plugged in at the time.  ;D

'Tis better to get roasted than burned...

P.S. -- "OP" just stands for Original Poster. As in the one who posted the first post in the thread. Or it could stand for Obstinate Peon... nah, we won't put that label on you. :)
Either is fine or perhaps, even true...
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Chuck Simon on December 16, 2011, 03:36:16 PM
...So... I'm guessing nobody wants to see my homemade flash pots???   Just kidding!!!

It's good to Mr Miller has a sense of humor, and I think he is smart enough to have learned something from this thread.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 16, 2011, 05:23:52 PM
It's good to Mr Miller has a sense of humor, and I think he is smart enough to have learned something from this thread.

Agreed. I do look forward to hearing how he decides to proceed, but I think it's quite possible the correct answer is also the easiest-- running dedicated cable runs to the multiple circuits as needed, and setting the "distro" aside for now as not being needed for his events.

(Although, with the original problem being feeding a heavier cable with several edisons... I saw one of the larger companies in town a couple years ago feeding L21-30 amp rack inputs with a 'break-in' from 3-20A circuits... At the time, I thought "how clever" -- now I have learned better!)

Clint, when you get to that point, I cannot recommend enough the Motion Labs line of RackPacks. They're well-built, fit right into your amp rack, and allow you to have the breakers right there in case of trippage. Also, as you look into your other electrical needs in general, make sure that the electrician that helps you knows about entertainment power, which can be quite different from residential or commercial power.

As for power cables in general, the linked options are certainly a good way to go (Home Depot or whatever, heavy black cabling) -- just make sure you heed the advice and ensure that you get cabling that is rated for entertainment usage. I've been buying the bulk cable at a local supplier and building my sets myself, but make sure you're ready for that in skills before jumping in to it, and test every cable before use. Having a multi-meter with you onsite is vital.

Oh, and you mentioned a generator-- make sure you know your local ordinances regarding inspections and grounding. I know that here in Seattle, portable diesel generators have to be grounded and inspected by the city before use. I've never arranged that myself, so I don't know if there's a cost involved, what the lead time is, and so on, but make sure you have those details so you can build any extra costs into your price. I know there's some people on here who make as much (or even more!) money at events providing power distribution/generation as they do providing sound!

-Ray Aberle
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on December 16, 2011, 05:27:48 PM
Is an inexpensive "poor man's distro" that would combine 2 or 3 separate 15A circuits into 2 or 3 15A circuits with a common ground commercially available?
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 16, 2011, 07:02:38 PM


George, yes - See below;

Chuck,
Use whatever color cable floats your boat as long as it's the right cable and the right connectors for the job. I'll spend my money on manufactured cables because a) I don't have a lot of time. b) I'm old and getting lazy. c) I have plenty of it. Do me a favor though, let's not associate the color of the cable with the ability or professionalism of the person using it. I would take exception to that.

OP,

Yes that's you Clint. If you're hell bent on impressing people with the use of a distro then I suggest you at least buy an entry level box from any one of companies in the USA who makes them. The price is not as steep as you and others may think, and there are a number of solutions that work well at your level. As a matter of fact construction job site units make for a very nice entry level distro, can be used in all weather conditions, and often only cost around $300.

http://www.acpowerdistribution.com/ (http://www.acpowerdistribution.com/)
 
https://www.ccixpress.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10101&storeId=10051&langId=-1&top=Y&bu=&categoryId=10645&channel=%24&customer (https://www.ccixpress.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10101&storeId=10051&langId=-1&top=Y&bu=&categoryId=10645&channel=%24&customer)=

http://www.amazon.com/CEP-Portable-Distribution-Center-8706GU/dp/B000F5D7D2 (http://www.amazon.com/CEP-Portable-Distribution-Center-8706GU/dp/B000F5D7D2)
http://www.arizonatools.com/portable-power-distribution-center/ (http://www.arizonatools.com/portable-power-distribution-center/)

Here is a good site for industrial grade cords up to 10ga, and they even have colors other than that nasty yellow.
http://www.voltec-industries.com/ (http://www.voltec-industries.com/)
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_generators+generator-accessories+power-distribution (http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_generators+generator-accessories+power-distribution)

Even carpet cleaners have more sense than to use a "home made" box.
 http://www.jondon.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=16915 (http://www.jondon.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=16915)
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 16, 2011, 07:54:55 PM
Mr. Leonard,

I prefer black cables for stages. I will use yellow or orange cords that are running around the public. like making my own cables. I don't think carpet cleaners are stupid. I am not enamored with my distro, but I am proud of it. You have no idea what my distro looks like or the quality of it, so why would you want to imply anything, good or bad; about me, my abilities, or my work?

OP  8)
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Matt Errend on December 16, 2011, 08:18:14 PM
Mr. Leonard,

I prefer black cables for stages. I will use yellow or orange cords that are running around the public. like making my own cables. I don't think carpet cleaners are stupid. I am not enamored with my distro, but I am proud of it. You have no idea what my distro looks like or the quality of it, so why would you want to imply anything, good or bad; about me, my abilities, or my work?

OP  8)

Based on what you've described, it's not the quality of your distro that is in question here, it is the concept.

There is no advantaged gained by taking two N5-15p circuits and bonding them together if you don't even require 220v to run your gear! Just run two separate extension cords and be done with it. It's safer and it saves you from taking responsibility if something goes wrong.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 16, 2011, 08:19:00 PM
Mr. Leonard,

I prefer black cables for stages. I will use yellow or orange cords that are running around the public. like making my own cables. I don't think carpet cleaners are stupid. I am not enamored with my distro, but I am proud of it. You have no idea what my distro looks like or the quality of it, so why would you want to imply anything, good or bad; about me, my abilities, or my work?

OP  8)

OK.  One last post on this before consigning you to the Iggy List:

This rude reply to someone who has just posted some valuable links for your edification is pretty much a last straw.  The above highlighted portion of your reply is just ridiculous.  You have described your home-made rig in fairly great detail.  What it looks like is unimportant.  What matters is that it's dangerous and illegal.

I just hope that the consequences of using something so ill-advised fall solely on you and no-one else.

Sayonara
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 16, 2011, 09:04:24 PM
I would like some input on my power distro setup...

I built my own distro system.  The whole thing consists of:
A 100' 10/4 SOOW feeder that is split into two sections: 1 30' and 1 70' with L14-30 connectors.

I have a small panel with a 220v 30amp breaker that allows me to use many different ways to tap power: i.e. bare wires to wire into a panel, clamps to attach to lugs, etc...

I built a two rack space box that has 8 20amp carling switch/breakers wired to 6 outlets in the back and an L14-20 connecter in the front that feeds my stage stringer (a 75' 12/4 SJOOW cable with four duplex boxes with outlets wired on two legs for 120v lines).  All in all, it's pretty cool.  It doesn't look homemade, and it seems pretty safe.

I run my system in bars; often with no access to good power. So what I've done is made a cable with two edison plugs that feed my distro.  I use a meter to find two outlets that are on different legs, so I am always sure I have 220.  The only time this gives me trouble is when they have GFCI outlets.  Those can't share a common neutral.

You've gotten a lot of good input, Clint- be sure you don't alienate those who can help keep you safe! It seems like the distro itself is most likely fine, just your use of wall outlets into an L14-30 female connector is quite dangerous. Again, I would leave the distro at home, unless you are going to a venue that has a 220v outlet for your use. You can also get (like others have) 14-50P connectors-- I have one of those (male) that goes to a 50A generator connector, and then use 6/4 for my main feeder. I then use a breaker box to step down from the 50A/220v to two 30A/220v (L14-30s as well), which feed my rackpacks. That way when you are at a venue that might have that range plug, you can safely use it for your power needs.

Again, remember that the members of this forum have a vast amount of knowledge, but as mentioned before, there are two areas that fall under the category of "If you have to ask, get help!" -- power and rigging. Back in June, I was trying to get information for what I needed to rig a hang of VRX932LAPs to a StageLine SL100 mobile stage. I wasn't going to do the rigging myself, as I am not trained to do so. But, it was difficult to get information as to what I needed to provide so that the rigger(s) could do their job right. The people responding weren't being rude or condescending, they just wanted to make sure that this sort of information doesn't get mis-used, which could kill someone. I learned a bit about rigging during this process, and understand how serious of a job we're in.

Get your distro checked out by a professional, though, would be my final advice. JUST to be safe! (Plus any other heavy power boxes you build). And remember, you don't always need it for these bar gigs when there are already a couple of wall circuits close by.

Ray Aberle
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 16, 2011, 09:37:12 PM
C'mon!!! I was definitely being a smart-alec in response to Bob, as he certainly was being what, super nice - to me???

I have learned that my method is wrong and I have every intention of changing it, because of why I've learned.

I'm not thin-skinned, so I'm not going to lose my cool. If anybody was offended by my remarks, I apologize. Most of these old school guys seem like they're pretty tough.

The reason I hooked up my distro that way was so I was always certain to have two separate circuits, and I had a neat clean system. After thinking this through, I realize I can still find two circuits by checking the hot leads to find 220. I just won't sum them anymore, because I have learned. I will continue to create new ways to make my system streamlined, efficient, and easier to setup and tear down.

Geez, if the guy who came up with the speakon connectors hadn't have thought of something new... I was already thinking about making a breakout box that had relays that would kick the opposite leg if the other got disconnected to make my system safe. I may or may not try it. I'm not stupid if I do, though!

If some guys want to call me stupid, or just imply it as Bob did, that's fine. But don't get mad if I fire back. The Stanley Steemer guy on the commercials does seem a little off... But its not nice to insult all carpet cleaner guys!  Just sayin'...
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Justin Bartlett on December 16, 2011, 10:26:42 PM
I was already thinking about making a breakout box that had relays that would kick the opposite leg if the other got disconnected to make my system safe. I may or may not try it.
Here we go again...
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Rob Spence on December 16, 2011, 10:49:59 PM
Is an inexpensive "poor man's distro" that would combine 2 or 3 separate 15A circuits into 2 or 3 15A circuits with a common ground commercially available?

There is a commercial version of the PMD (Poor Mans Distro) from triptags.com.
It just takes several inputs and for each input supplies several outputs but ties all the grounds together to help with ground loop problems.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on December 16, 2011, 10:54:43 PM
C'mon!!! I was definitely being a smart-alec in response to Bob, as he certainly was being what, super nice - to me???

I have learned that my method is wrong and I have every intention of changing it, because of why I've learned.

I'm not thin-skinned, so I'm not going to lose my cool. If anybody was offended by my remarks, I apologize. Most of these old school guys seem like they're pretty tough.

The reason I hooked up my distro that way was so I was always certain to have two separate circuits, and I had a neat clean system. After thinking this through, I realize I can still find two circuits by checking the hot leads to find 220. I just won't sum them anymore, because I have learned. I will continue to create new ways to make my system streamlined, efficient, and easier to setup and tear down.

Geez, if the guy who came up with the speakon connectors hadn't have thought of something new... I was already thinking about making a breakout box that had relays that would kick the opposite leg if the other got disconnected to make my system safe. I may or may not try it. I'm not stupid if I do, though!

If some guys want to call me stupid, or just imply it as Bob did, that's fine. But don't get mad if I fire back. The Stanley Steemer guy on the commercials does seem a little off... But its not nice to insult all carpet cleaner guys!  Just sayin'...

Just stop, you're not helping your case. What in the world do you need that much power for anyways?
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: David Elsbury on December 16, 2011, 11:14:01 PM
There is a commercial version of the PMD (Poor Mans Distro) from triptags.com.
It just takes several inputs and for each input supplies several outputs but ties all the grounds together to help with ground loop problems.
Can you doublecheck your link is correct? It just goes to a placeholder for me.
David
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Bob Charest on December 16, 2011, 11:24:08 PM
C'mon!!! I was definitely being a smart-alec in response to Bob, as he certainly was being what, super nice - to me???...

If some guys want to call me stupid, or just imply it as Bob did, that's fine. But don't get mad if I fire back. The Stanley Steemer guy on the commercials does seem a little off... But its not nice to insult all carpet cleaner guys!  Just sayin'...

Clint,

I don't want to dump on you, but I will say that there's a lot to be learned here, and how one conducts themselves in conversations can either help or not. I'm sure you've found some of that out to as it pertains to PSW forums.

When I read Bob's post I thought he was being really helpful to post all those links to resources that might truly be of value, so in answer to your rhetorical question, yes he was being super-nice to you. He looked up those links and made them available to you, correct? My impression was that rather than pile on, he was providing actual helpful info. I didn't think that he was being nasty to you , I really didn't. With regard to carpet cleaners I also thought that he was making the point that another group of people who don't deal with as much technical details as most sound companies do have tools that they use to be safe given the wet environments that they work around. That distro in the link looked like it would travel easily and well.

I've found the community here to be a valuable resource to me and I'm sure others feel the same. Honestly, if someone were to point out that something is unsafe, I would hope the reaction would be to thank them for maybe saving your backside or somebody elses.

Know of a good outlet for flamesuits?  :)

Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on December 17, 2011, 12:04:20 AM
There is a commercial version of the PMD (Poor Mans Distro) from triptags.com.
It just takes several inputs and for each input supplies several outputs but ties all the grounds together to help with ground loop problems.
Thanks Rob. That sounds like what I was thinking of. 1 rack unit, like a simple power strip but with 2 extension cords to plug into 2 separate 15A outlets (different circuits), and several 15A receptacles coming off each of the circuits, with the grounds for all the receptacles shorted together. I was not thinking of anything fancy or higher amperage than 2x15A, this is for relatively small gigs where the total current draw of all the amps and components of the whole audio system can go above 15A but never above 30A. Two 15A breakers would be a nice touch, but no need for anything else. This would be like using 2 extension cords from 2 different 15A circuit outlets, but without the ground loop problems that could cause.

I also was unable to find anything at triptags.com or by googling triptags.

Bob, I couldn't find anything small and simple enough on the websites you suggested. The smallest seemed to be 20A.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 17, 2011, 12:09:51 AM
Oh well. I'm done. Have fun and please be sure to wear rubber gloves.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Patrick Tracy on December 17, 2011, 01:04:15 AM
as he certainly was being what, super nice - to me???

Yeah, pretty much.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 17, 2011, 01:10:00 AM
Thanks Rob. That sounds like what I was thinking of. 1 rack unit, like a simple power strip but with 2 extension cords to plug into 2 separate 15A outlets (different circuits), and several 15A receptacles coming off each of the circuits, with the grounds for all the receptacles shorted together. I was not thinking of anything fancy or higher amperage than 2x15A, this is for relatively small gigs where the total current draw of all the amps and components of the whole audio system can go above 15A but never above 30A. Two 15A breakers would be a nice touch, but no need for anything else. This would be like using 2 extension cords from 2 different 15A circuit outlets, but without the ground loop problems that could cause.

I also was unable to find anything at triptags.com or by googling triptags.

Bob, I couldn't find anything small and simple enough on the websites you suggested. The smallest seemed to be 20A.

I almost built something like that once, 2-gang box with two 15A inputs, two 15A outputs, and the grounds connected... but didn't ever do it. Heh. But, it's a pretty easy piece to develop.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on December 17, 2011, 02:12:03 AM
My question is, where can you buy one already made, safe, legal and cheap?
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 17, 2011, 02:21:20 AM
My question is, where can you buy one already made, safe, legal and cheap?

You mean the Poor Man's Distro/Other Grounding-common devices?

Ray
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on December 17, 2011, 03:10:07 AM
Yes, what I described, basically a 1 RU power strip with 2 15A inputs and 2 or more 15A outputs with the grounds all connected to a single common ground to prevent ground loops.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Rob Spence on December 17, 2011, 09:02:37 AM
Can you doublecheck your link is correct? It just goes to a placeholder for me.
David
Oops. My bad. I should not post late at night :-)

Try this
http://www.triktags.com/html/pmd_buss4_-_new_.html

They modeled it after one that I built and sent me one as a gift.

They are also a good source for connectors and parts and, of course, labels.

Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Chuck Simon on December 17, 2011, 12:25:14 PM
Quote
Do me a favor though, let's not associate the color of the cable with the ability or professionalism of the person using it. I would take exception to that.

I certainly don't, but there are people who do, including electrical inspectors in certain areas that insist on SOO cable to satisfy code. 
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 17, 2011, 01:15:42 PM
I certainly don't, but there are people who do, including electrical inspectors in certain areas that insist on SOO cable to satisfy code.
Are commercially available extension cords illegal for certain applications?

I prefer to make my own from SOOW cable.  My stage stringer is SJOOW. The main reason I like to make my own is they're easily field serviceable.

I watch ebay like a hawk, and ocasionally, someone will sell hunks of what I need cheap!
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Chuck Simon on December 17, 2011, 01:37:11 PM
Are commercially available extension cords illegal for certain applications?

I prefer to make my own from SOOW cable.  My stage stringer is SJOOW. The main reason I like to make my own is they're easily field serviceable.

I watch ebay like a hawk, and ocasionally, someone will sell hunks of what I need cheap!

There are codes for cable used for portable and theatrical applications.  It has been discussed here and you might have luck searching for it if interested.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 17, 2011, 01:45:57 PM
There are codes for cable used in theatrical applications.  It has been discussed here and you might have luck searching for it if interested.

I'll preface this question with a qualifying statement: Ignorance does not indicate stupidity. I am ignorant of theatrical applications, and when such rules and regulations are applicable. That doesn't make me stupid.  (OTHER things I do ARE stupid, but I avoid those types of things.. usually. but I digress...)

When do theatrical applications apply?  Where could I find what rules and regulations apply to me?  I am asking this in sincerity.  Are there different regulations for "bar band applications" as opposed to union sanctioned theaters?

Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Chuck Simon on December 17, 2011, 01:50:56 PM
I'm no expert on the subject, but I'm sure there are some here who could answer your questions.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Jamin Lynch on December 17, 2011, 02:28:54 PM
I'll preface this question with a qualifying statement: Ignorance does not indicate stupidity. I am ignorant of theatrical applications, and when such rules and regulations are applicable. That doesn't make me stupid.  (OTHER things I do ARE stupid, but I avoid those types of things.. usually. but I digress...)

When do theatrical applications apply?  Where could I find what rules and regulations apply to me?  I am asking this in sincerity.  Are there different regulations for "bar band applications" as opposed to union santioned theaters?

You would have to look up the codes that apply for your location. Codes can differ from city to city. There should be code info available on-line from the city you life in.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 17, 2011, 06:33:06 PM
I'll preface this question with a qualifying statement: Ignorance does not indicate stupidity. I am ignorant of theatrical applications, and when such rules and regulations are applicable. That doesn't make me stupid.  (OTHER things I do ARE stupid, but I avoid those types of things.. usually. but I digress...)

When do theatrical applications apply?  Where could I find what rules and regulations apply to me?  I am asking this in sincerity.  Are there different regulations for "bar band applications" as opposed to union santioned theaters?

The National Electrical Code.  It's the basis for all local Codes; counties and cities are free to adopt any or all of the Code or customize it to their particular needs.  Go back and re-read my earlier post.

As for outer jacket color, OSHA has much more to say about that than the NEC.  I prefer black, but there are times when yellow or orange might be appropriate from a personnel safety standpoint or when in public areas.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 17, 2011, 07:07:50 PM
The National Electrical Code.  It's the basis for all local Codes; counties and cities are free to adopt any or all of the Code or customize it to their particular needs.  Go back and re-read my earlier post.

As for outer jacket color, OSHA has much more to say about that than the NEC.  I prefer black, but there are times when yellow or orange might be appropriate from a personnel safety standpoint or when in public areas.
I use yellow/orange extension cords for use where there is public access, and black cables on the stage, where I need them to be inconspicuous.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Daniel Lozada on December 17, 2011, 07:49:52 PM
Wow - the price on the 3 bus unit from Triktags is great...I was looking at spending that much on the parts to build one myself. 

Rob Spence - care to comment on the quality of the unit they sent you?  Any problems or reasons not to buy one from them?
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 17, 2011, 08:20:07 PM
I certainly don't, but there are people who do, including electrical inspectors in certain areas that insist on SOO cable to satisfy code.

I totally agree with that statement. I could have been more descriptive than "yellow", but thought the price would indicate the level of quality. The cables I bought, and I haven't had to buy any in quite some time, are as good as they can get. My color choice was based on a) I don't run them across the stage, b) We were, and still are, doing a large amount of jobs outside on small town commons. They show well in the grass. c) They're perfect for my work around the house.  :D 
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on December 17, 2011, 11:57:39 PM
My question is, where can you buy one already made, safe, legal and cheap?

I don't know about cheap, but there is this little gadget (http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/wiring/section-v-datasheet.asp?FAM=Marine&PN=YQ230):

(http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/wiring/images/yq230_diagram.jpg)

Notice the two male ends. I believe this is intended for marine operations, but it *may* be usable in other situations, if your local AHJ* approves. (I trust that Hubbell would not make something that is unsafe or violates codes.) This may be all Mr. Miller needs to feed a properly constructed 240V power distro where only 120V circuits are available.

*AHJ - Authority Having Jurisdiction
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 18, 2011, 12:48:03 AM
I found this...

http://www.quick220.com/220_volt.htm (http://www.quick220.com/220_volt.htm)

It doesn't fit my needs exactly, but it shows that what I'm doing isn't as stupid as I started to believe...

I am looking to build my own. I looked into relays today. I can build a breakout box with relays that won't allow either leg to energize without both energizing. If one plug is disconnected, both legs are de-energized, making it impossible to have a live exposed neutral.

I need to find the right relays.. I can't use coil relays, as I'm worried they'll make noise.

Any ideas?

Rest assured, I'm not using my distro until I build a bullet proof system that can't hurt anyone!

I know some think my distro is foolish, but I like building these things. I put a lot of thought into them and when I'm not sure, I find more info.  The benefits of this system are worth it to me to pursue if I can make it safe.

If this starts another fire storm, I'll drop it and not post anymore.

Wanna see my homemade flash pots? ...just kidding...
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 18, 2011, 04:04:07 AM
I found this...

http://www.quick220.com/220_volt.htm (http://www.quick220.com/220_volt.htm)

It doesn't fit my needs exactly, but it shows that what I'm doing isn't as stupid as I started to believe...

I am looking to build my own. I looked into relays today. I can build a breakout box with relays that won't allow either leg to energize without both energizing. If one plug is disconnected, both legs are de-energized, making it impossible to have a live exposed neutral.

I need to find the right relays.. I can't use coil relays, as I'm worried they'll make noise.

Any ideas?

Rest assured, I'm not using my distro until I build a bullet proof system that can't hurt anyone!

I know some think my distro is foolish, but I like building these things. I put a lot of thought into them and when I'm not sure, I find more info.  The benefits of this system are worth it to me to pursue if I can make it safe.

If this starts another fire storm, I'll drop it and not post anymore.

Wanna see my homemade flash pots? ...just kidding...

I wouldn't get that linked device, if for no other reason then it has a 3 hour max duty cycle... and a few other weirdities in the product specs.

Call me silly, but I don't see the purpose of building a box for which you realistically do not need. Since you have wall power available, and you're just plugging in to them anyways (and not trying to get right from a power pane or 220v outlet) why waste money and time building something you don't need?? I know you said you enjoy building things like this... but if you're running this as a business, there's no logic in spending money on something until you actually need it!

Ray Aberle
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Brian Larson on December 18, 2011, 11:33:35 AM
Just because you can buy it does not make it safe.

For example, my boss has amp racks with L21-30 inputs built by LEX. This is fine for venues where three-phase power is available; he uses his LEX distro. Unfortunately three-phase power is not always available. LEX's solution; a cable with 3 male edisons connected to an L21-30 connector. It was built by LEX and has a molded joint with LEX's logo stamped right into it.

Although it was bought from a fairly well thought of company, it does not make it any safer.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: eric lenasbunt on December 18, 2011, 12:16:19 PM
I wouldn't get that linked device, if for no other reason then it has a 3 hour max duty cycle... and a few other weirdities in the product specs.

Call me silly, but I don't see the purpose of building a box for which you realistically do not need. Since you have wall power available, and you're just plugging in to them anyways (and not trying to get right from a power pane or 220v outlet) why waste money and time building something you don't need?? I know you said you enjoy building things like this... but if you're running this as a business, there's no logic in spending money on something until you actually need it!

Ray Aberle

Amen. Seems like u could accomplish your clean look with 2 single rack unit power conditioners in the rack and feed with the 2 extension cords (which you are running anyway) and distribute from there. That's how we do our amp racks most of the time, since we just need 2 120v circuits per rack and wall plugs are usually all that's available. Those Furman units usually even have a plug on the front for a 'clean' Backline stringer run.
My 2 cents.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 19, 2011, 09:16:00 AM
Amen. Seems like u could accomplish your clean look with 2 single rack unit power conditioners in the rack and feed with the 2 extension cords (which you are running anyway) and distribute from there. That's how we do our amp racks most of the time, since we just need 2 120v circuits per rack and wall plugs are usually all that's available. Those Furman units usually even have a plug on the front for a 'clean' Backline stringer run.
My 2 cents.
Agreed...  The main reason for saving my current setup is that it's done.  I would have to scrap all of my wire, i.e. stage stringer, feeder, all of the hubble connectors, etc...
Whayt I do is very consice and easy.  If I build the box I proposed, any hired stagehand could hook it up, because it wouldn't power until it was installed correctly.  Like the spekon connectors, they can't be plugged in wrong.
I'm not so sold on my sytem that I'm willing to risk anyone's safety, now that I see the system flaws have been exposed.  But if I can save it, it's a great time saver for setup and tear-down, which is a good reasin in of itself!
My distro is a two rackspace piece mounted in my amp rack.  All the amps are plugged into it.  I run the feeder, stage stringer, and extension cord for the FOH board with the snake and presto, I'm done!
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Jack keaton on December 19, 2011, 11:12:18 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16zwTCaz99c&feature=related this was the first video they showed me in my electricians courses. if you are willing to accept the responsibility of this happening to someone using your "homemade distro" more power to you.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Charlie Zureki on December 19, 2011, 11:40:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16zwTCaz99c&feature=related this was the first video they showed me in my electricians courses. if you are willing to accept the responsibility of this happening to someone using your "homemade distro" more power to you.

  Hello Jack,

   While tragic and telling, I'm certain that the OP's distro would not affect such a dramatic display.  Using/handling the OP's distro during a failure, sure, they'd feel some pain, and possibly lose their life, but, they more than likely wouldn't be cooked from the inside out before their body hit the ground. 

   As many other wise posters have suggested, the OP should either use separate extension Edison cords or, purchase a new or used Manufactured Distro and have the appropriately skilled person do the connections to a source.

   Simple, Easy, and less "Dino" involved.

   Cheers,
   Hammer

   
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Brian Wilkinson on December 19, 2011, 12:35:27 PM
Wow - the price on the 3 bus unit from Triktags is great...I was looking at spending that much on the parts to build one myself. 

Rob Spence - care to comment on the quality of the unit they sent you?  Any problems or reasons not to buy one from them?

I have used one of these for about a year now and love it.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on December 19, 2011, 01:09:30 PM
Seems like u could accomplish your clean look with 2 single rack unit power conditioners in the rack and feed with the 2 extension cords (which you are running anyway) and distribute from there. That's how we do our amp racks most of the time, since we just need 2 120v circuits per rack and wall plugs are usually all that's available. Those Furman units usually even have a plug on the front for a 'clean' Backline stringer run.
My 2 cents.
Are you proposing drawing power from 2 different circuits without connecting their grounds together?

If you are tying the grounds together for these two power conditioners, is there any potential danger in tying together the grounds (third wires) from several separate 15A or 20A circuits in a bar or other venue with largely unknown electrical wiring configuration?
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 19, 2011, 02:13:21 PM
Agreed...  The main reason for saving my current setup is that it's done.  I would have to scrap all of my wire, i.e. stage stringer, feeder, all of the hubble connectors, etc...
Whayt I do is very consice and easy.  If I build the box I proposed, any hired stagehand could hook it up, because it wouldn't power until it was installed correctly.  Like the spekon connectors, they can't be plugged in wrong.
I'm not so sold on my sytem that I'm willing to risk anyone's safety, now that I see the system flaws have been exposed.  But if I can save it, it's a great time saver for setup and tear-down, which is a good reasin in of itself!
My distro is a two rackspace piece mounted in my amp rack.  All the amps are plugged into it.  I run the feeder, stage stringer, and extension cord for the FOH board with the snake and presto, I'm done!

You are "naked" from an insurance standpoint.  You have designed and built a "product" even if it's never offered for general sale.  Your business and personal liability insurance will not cover any loss that results from the use of this product.  Also realize that without "UL Listing" (or equivalent) it would not make it past a local inspector.

While I admire your desire, you don't seem to grok that this Quixotic task is not to your benefit beyond the intellectual exercise of the design.

Have you read the NEC yet?  Do your homework before you build this thing.  Code interpretation is available at www.mikeholt.com
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Felix Werner on December 20, 2011, 04:03:03 AM
ANY "soundman that does "tie-ins" is no better than the homemade distro guy.

I know we all do it, But we are not qualified to do so.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Charlie Zureki on December 20, 2011, 09:45:15 AM
ANY "soundman that does "tie-ins" is no better than the homemade distro guy.

I know we all do it, But we are not qualified to do so.

  Hmmm   That's not necessarily true, I know a lot of  Sound Techs that are more than capable of doing tie-ins. They have the knowledge and experience, and have been doing tie-ins for years.

   Hammer
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on December 20, 2011, 10:14:50 AM
ANY "soundman that does "tie-ins" is no better than the homemade distro guy.

I know we all do it, But we are not qualified to do so.

Do not confuse 'qualified' and 'certified'. One does not necessarily imply the other.

There are many qualified people who don't have that journeyman electrician's card, and there are many journeyman electricians whose certification leaves you scratching your head wondering how they got it.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Trevor Ludwig on December 20, 2011, 10:23:22 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16zwTCaz99c&feature=related this was the first video they showed me in my electricians courses. if you are willing to accept the responsibility of this happening to someone using your "homemade distro" more power to you.

...good god...
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: eric lenasbunt on December 21, 2011, 10:39:10 AM
Are you proposing drawing power from 2 different circuits without connecting their grounds together?


No, just plugging them in, no point in connecting anything other than Edison to Edison. In other words running extension cords to conditioners.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on December 21, 2011, 11:52:18 AM
I have not tried this in a live setting, but in my studio, when I plug different components of the sound system into 2 different circuits, I get very significant hum due to ground loops. My fix has always been to use one and only one 15A circuit as the source for all audio components that are interconnected by the balanced ground connections. This is not a problem in my low-power studio, but in live gigs, a 15A limit can be very constraining.

Have you been able to get away with using separate circuits as you propose, without getting ground loop noise?
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 21, 2011, 12:05:42 PM
I have not tried this in a live setting, but in my studio, when I plug different components of the sound system into 2 different circuits, I get very significant hum due to ground loops. My fix has always been to use one and only one 15A circuit as the source for all audio components that are interconnected by the balanced ground connections. This is not a problem in my low-power studio, but in live gigs, a 15A limit can be very constraining.

Have you been able to get away with using separate circuits as you propose, without getting ground loop noise?
This is the whole point of the Poor Man's Distro concept - tie the grounds together from multiple circuits.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on December 21, 2011, 12:45:09 PM
So would there be any problem if I just ran a large (eg 12 ga) insulated wire from the common third prong ground in one 15A power strip to the common third prong ground in a second 15A power strip, and then plugged each into a separate circuit in a bar or other venue?
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 21, 2011, 12:55:29 PM
So would there be any problem if I just ran a large (eg 12 ga) insulated wire from the common third prong ground in one 15A power strip to the common third prong ground in a second 15A power strip, and then plugged each into a separate circuit in a bar or other venue?
Functionally that's the right idea, however you can probably improve the implementation.  If you already have an amp rack, you can add another rack mount power strip for other deivces and pass your power through there.  The metal power strips will be grounded through the metal rack rails (may want to scrape a little paint off to improve the connection), and you have a functional solution without modifying anything or using dodgy external grounding wires.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 21, 2011, 02:17:54 PM
I have not tried this in a live setting, but in my studio, when I plug different components of the sound system into 2 different circuits, I get very significant hum due to ground loops. My fix has always been to use one and only one 15A circuit as the source for all audio components that are interconnected by the balanced ground connections. This is not a problem in my low-power studio, but in live gigs, a 15A limit can be very constraining.

Have you been able to get away with using separate circuits as you propose, without getting ground loop noise?

With my system, I have NEVER gotten any ground loop noise, because all the grounds are tied together.  The problem with it is, as many have correctly pointed out, the there is danger having an open neutral that would become "live", or "hot".

One problem I often encountered in bars was that the circuits that I was using were not exclusively used for entertainment.  On top of that I found that many of the outlets available were all on the same circuit.  So the 15 or 20 amps were not available and I would inadvertently pop breakers, trying to run my whole system on it.

By finding two breakers that would sum 220 volts across the hot legs insured that I had indeed found two lines that were on separate circuits.

So now, even if I don't continue to use my current setup, I will continue to find my power that way, so I am sure I'm spreading my draw across two circuits.  I will definitely tie the grounds together in order to defeat any ground loop.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on December 21, 2011, 02:41:36 PM
Tom, are the ground prongs of the 3 prong socket connected to the chassis grounds of power strips? I thought they were connected to each other and to the third prong of the plug, but not necessarily to the chassis ground that would contact the rack rails.

Cliff, it is interesting that you have never had ground loop problems in a live setting. I would have thought there would be even more electrical noise in live environments than in a home studio where I at least have several separate dedicated circuits.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 21, 2011, 02:57:50 PM
Tom, are the ground prongs of the 3 prong socket connected to the chassis grounds of power strips? I thought they were connected to each other and to the third prong of the plug, but not necessarily to the chassis ground that would contact the rack rails.

Yes - metal enclosures are grounded to the earth ground in most cases. 
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Clint Miller on December 21, 2011, 03:17:31 PM
Cliff, it is interesting that you have never had ground loop problems in a live setting. I would have thought there would be even more electrical noise in live environments than in a home studio where I at least have several separate dedicated circuits.

No... The only noise I encounter now is caused by single coil pickups and neon signs.  there is a bar called Cliffside in Akron that an old cooler on the other side of the stage wall causes a crazy amount of noise in any distorted guitar sound.  I can't find any way to defeat that!  I put the bass player there last time and as soon as he hit his fuzz pedal, the noise went crazy!
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on December 21, 2011, 05:49:02 PM
So if multiple rackmounted 15A power strips are all tied to a common ground by the rack rails, there should be no need for a distro at all, as long as no single audio component draws over 15A. Assuming we can find separate 15A circuits in the venue (which we would need to find anyway with a distro), we can just plug each power strip into a different circuit and not worry about ground loops through the building wiring. Is that correct?
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Charlie Zureki on December 21, 2011, 08:34:42 PM
So if multiple rackmounted 15A power strips are all tied to a common ground by the rack rails, there should be no need for a distro at all, as long as no single audio component draws over 15A. Assuming we can find separate 15A circuits in the venue (which we would need to find anyway with a distro), we can just plug each power strip into a different circuit and not worry about ground loops through the building wiring. Is that correct?

  Hello,

   Not necessarily.  These ground-loop hums are fickle.  You should not have a ground-loop hum if  both grounds are at the same voltage potential, but, you may need some very accurate measuring gear to measure/verify any potential difference.

   Hammer

   
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 21, 2011, 09:56:09 PM
So if multiple rackmounted 15A power strips are all tied to a common ground by the rack rails, there should be no need for a distro at all, as long as no single audio component draws over 15A.
Yes - this is exactly the point.  You don't really have a "distro", you have consolidated grounds on all the independent 120v circuits you are using.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on December 22, 2011, 12:01:52 AM
The problem with it is, as many have correctly pointed out, the there is danger having an open neutral that would become "live", or "hot".
Is this a potential risk in a venue with unknown wiring issues, when using multiple separate circuits with grounds all connected? Or does physically connecting the grounds prevent this problem?
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 22, 2011, 08:11:32 AM
Is this a potential risk in a venue with unknown wiring issues, when using multiple separate circuits with grounds all connected? Or does physically connecting the grounds prevent this problem?
That really depends on the rest of your system-the gear in it-how the wiring/grounding scheme (on the signal side of things) is handled.

If you have gear with a pin 1 problem or are running unbalanced lines etc, you can have all sorts of hum buzz problems.

Saftey will not usually be a problem (assuming all the grounds go back to central point).

Of course if you have gear with pin 1 problems and other signal grounding issues, then having a "proper" distro/grounding system is not going to fix those.

As a general rule, the electrical ground should be used as a saftey and not relyed on for "noise control".
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 22, 2011, 08:20:36 AM
Could one of the moderators put this thread out of it's misery please.
Title: Re: My unconventional homemade distro
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on December 22, 2011, 07:20:57 PM
Could one of the moderators put this thread out of it's misery please.

I agree with Bob, this thread has taken a few steps past ridiculous.

I can easily run a 3-way rig, 2 monitor mixes, backline power and 8 led cans off of a 15A circuit. It covers 150-250 people no sweat and I can't remember ever blowing a breaker. Why people need to be playing "electrician" for these little club shows is beyond me.