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Title: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 13, 2017, 03:42:24 PM
Working in an arena in Shin Yokahama Japan and it by far the best sounding arena I have ever been in!
The gig is playback for a skate show and the local crew hung a bunch of Meyer cabs.
Rig sounds nice but the room is the real star here. :)
Eveywhere I look, there is evidence of a real attention to correct , broad spectrum, acoustic control.
This should be required study for anyone building a large, multipurpose sports facility.

On the other hand,the practice rink?
Well let's just say I could go back today and listen to yesterday's music.
Hard flat surfaces as far as the eye can see. Oh yes, and "snowballs" for speakers. :(
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Dave Guilford on January 13, 2017, 03:53:22 PM
Pics or it didn't happen
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Don T. Williams on January 13, 2017, 05:07:24 PM
Just a quick comment.  Most arenas (at least in the US) make their big bucks from sporting events, and they want the crowd noise to be intense.  The louder the better!  This is true with high school, college, and professional sports.  The arenas are actually designed to be loud, reverberant  spaces!  It makes an audio engineers job very hard when they are marketed as multi-use facilities.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on January 13, 2017, 06:37:09 PM
Most arenas (at least in the US) make their big bucks from sporting events, and they want the crowd noise to be intense.  The louder the better!  This is true with high school, college, and professional sports.  The arenas are actually designed to be loud, reverberant  spaces!  It makes an audio engineers job very hard when they are marketed as multi-use facilities.

Preach it brother!
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 13, 2017, 07:30:07 PM
Just a quick comment.  Most arenas (at least in the US) make their big bucks from sporting events, and they want the crowd noise to be intense.  The louder the better!  This is true with high school, college, and professional sports.  The arenas are actually designed to be loud, reverberant  spaces!  It makes an audio engineers job very hard when they are marketed as multi-use facilities.
A number of years ago (as in 15 or more) there was an article about a basketball arena in which they actually did acoustic treatments to make it useable for concerts etc.

They ended up taking out the treatment because the "feel" was not there for sporting events. 

It all depends on what is most important and pays the bills.

Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Mike Caldwell on January 13, 2017, 07:34:54 PM
I’m always amazed how many people comment “how great the acoustics are” in a room dripping in reverb, slap back or flutter echo.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Andrew Broughton on January 13, 2017, 07:51:38 PM
I’m always amazed how many people comment “how great the acoustics are” in a room dripping in reverb, slap back or flutter echo.
When someone from the venue says "this place has great acoustics", it's the nail in the coffin that the place will be the worst. Never fails.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Bob Cap on January 13, 2017, 08:45:19 PM
reminds me of Williams arena at the U of M.....
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 13, 2017, 08:48:42 PM
When someone from the venue says "this place has great acoustics", it's the nail in the coffin that the place will be the worst. Never fails.
Great acoustics FOR WHAT???

What is "great" for one thing is HORRIBLE for another.

We fight this all the times in Churches.  The choir and organ want a live room, but the Pastor and praise team want a dry room.

The organ usually wins. :( :( :(
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 13, 2017, 09:16:46 PM
Great acoustics FOR WHAT???

What is "great" for one thing is HORRIBLE for another.

We fight this all the times in Churches.  The choir and organ want a live room, but the Pastor and praise team want a dry room.

The organ usually wins. :( :( :(

If they're spending money on a pipe organ, yeah the PA is gonna lose out.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 13, 2017, 09:21:00 PM
If they're spending money on a pipe organ, yeah the PA is gonna lose out.
It always amazed me how they could "justify" 1/2 to 1 million for a pipe organ, yet spending money on a system to hear the Pastor was really hard.

I guess they get more inspiration from the pipe organ.

I thought the reason for going to Church was-----I better be careful before the thread gets wacked for taking the wrong direction.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 13, 2017, 09:40:31 PM
It always amazed me how they could "justify" 1/2 to 1 million for a pipe organ, yet spending money on a system to hear the Pastor was really hard.

I guess they get more inspiration from the pipe organ.

I thought the reason for going to Church was-----I better be careful before the thread gets wacked for taking the wrong direction.

As a guy who really likes pipe organ, I think contemporary services are just rock shows to window dress spirituality... but that's my personal *musical* opinion...

Pipe organs are labors of... labor.  Everything is hand made so these instruments are very labor intensive.  Some parts (mostly console related items) are purchased parts but otherwise most organ builders make everything - pipes, wind chests and wind reservoirs, pipe racks, all the connective wiring harnesses, and for some instruments there is direct mechanical connection between keys and pipes.  Then they assemble it in the factory and fix the things that don't work at all, then the things that can;t be fixed during installation and voicing.

That's where the money goes, Ivan.

As you point out, though, music is only part of why congregations build worship spaces.  The key is finding an architect and an acoustician that can reduce the "suck" for each side of the inevitable compromise.  The primary issue is that too often the geometry of the room creates flutter echos and room modes that hose your ALcons but don't do much for the organ or choir; likewise a more random and diffused reverb decay isn't as bad for speech intelligibility and much better for the acoustic music sources.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 13, 2017, 10:55:18 PM


Pipe organs are labors of... labor.  Everything is hand made so these instruments are very labor intensive.  Some parts (mostly console related items) are purchased parts but otherwise most organ builders make everything - pipes, wind chests and wind reservoirs, pipe racks, all the connective wiring harnesses, and for some instruments there is direct mechanical connection between keys and pipes.  Then they assemble it in the factory and fix the things that don't work at all, then the things that can;t be fixed during installation and voicing.

That's where the money goes, Ivan.


I am well aware of what it takes to do a real pipe organ.

It is an experience unlike any other to be able to stand in the middle of the pipes of a large pipe organ-with large wooden lows and have them "lay into it".

There is a lot of money to be made just keeping them going and tuned
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 13, 2017, 11:04:54 PM
I am well aware of what it takes to do a real pipe organ.

It is an experience unlike any other to be able to stand in the middle of the pipes of a large pipe organ-with large wooden lows and have them "lay into it".

There is a lot of money to be made spent just keeping them going and tuned

There, fixed it for you ;)

I think we've discussed before what it's like to be inside the pipe chambers when the instrument is being played.  It can be pretty intense :)
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 13, 2017, 11:20:47 PM
There, fixed it for you ;)

I think we've discussed before what it's like to be inside the pipe chambers when the instrument is being played.  It can be pretty intense :)
The ULTIMATE surround system-All 1000 "channels"-give or take a bunch.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Jeff Carter on January 13, 2017, 11:21:10 PM
So if I describe a system that...
-is used to create music (of a sort) in religious services
-is complex and expensive
-requires a high degree of skill to operate effectively
-is capable of overwhelming congregational singing with SPL
-requires a specific room design for maximum effectiveness
... am I describing a mega-church rock show PA or a pipe organ?

In some ways they are more similar than they are different.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 14, 2017, 09:35:56 AM
So if I describe a system that...
-is used to create music (of a sort) in religious services
-is complex and expensive
-requires a high degree of skill to operate effectively
-is capable of overwhelming congregational singing with SPL
-requires a specific room design for maximum effectiveness
... am I describing a mega-church rock show PA or a pipe organ?

In some ways they are more similar than they are different.
But the sound system is used the entire time-for many different events and covers the entire sound (including vocals) family.

What used to really irritate me was I would ask for some "quiet time" to tune/align the sound system.  Sometimes I would get it, other times I had to work around all the other construction noises.

But if "THE ORGAN GUY" shows up and wants quiet, everybody must bow down to him and leave.

I can't tell you how many times this happens.  The "organ guy" can do anything he wants, but me-who is trying to amplify the Pastors voice so people can hear-is right up there with the carpet guys.

I can think of one particular case in which I showed up and it was completely different.

It was a Catholic Church.  The guys had been installing the system all week and were told to not put anything on the alter.

I was not told this, so when I came in, I put down some cardboard on the Alter and proceeded to setup.

My guys were STUNNED when the Church people came up to me and didn't have a problem with me and my gear.

The Alter had not been blessed yet-so it was not Scared.

In this case I was treated like the "Organ guy". :)

BUT TO KEEP ON TOPIC OF ACOUSTICS, this was an unusual room-acoustically.

The rear wall was treated, along with other treatments, so the reverb time was pretty low.

But right down the middle it got really loud with a little bit of echo.

When the acoustician showed up, I was complementing him on the design-but mentioned the echo in the middle.

He said he DESIGNED it that way.

The purpose was when the bride in a wedding was walking towards the Alter, people would hear the click of her heels on the marble floor and draw attention to her walking.

ALL RIGHTY THEN, I have never run into a situation in which the shoes of the bride dictated the acoustics.

You see new stuff every day----------



Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Matthew Knischewsky on January 14, 2017, 02:41:58 PM
When someone from the venue says "this place has great acoustics", it's the nail in the coffin that the place will be the worst. Never fails.

Every
Single
Time
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: John Rutirasiri on January 14, 2017, 11:30:36 PM
Working in an arena in Shin Yokahama Japan and it by far the best sounding arena I have ever been in!

Depends on the perspective...from the inside or the outside.

I lived smacked in between Yokohama Stadium (Kannai station, not Shin Yokohama) and the Chinese high school in Chukagai.  At times best sounding was when there was NO SOUND.

John R.

Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Adam Ellsworth on January 15, 2017, 05:56:44 PM
We fight this all the times in Churches.  The choir and organ want a live room, but the Pastor and praise team want a dry room.

The organ usually wins.

I won once! I used to attend an old church with an excellent pipe organ and high cathedral-style ceilings. They had declining attendance and budget, but had to do some ceiling work and were convinced they should spend an extra $40k or something at the same time to "make the acoustics fit the pipe organ even better." It was almost a done deal. They also had trouble with speech intelligibility after upgrading the speaker system (can't say the brand I SPOSE).

I read the proposal, went to a church council meeting where I felt like the youngest person by half, and pointed out this would make the PA problem even worse. I got the impression nobody had even suggested to them it was a risk. They cancelled the project and I left that church.

... side note, the previous PA was an Altec (I think?) system with a single center cluster that looked like a big stadium horn system maybe installed in the 1970s or earlier. It was impeccably tuned for speech, but was fairly useless for music which was becoming a greater part of worship. The original installer clearly had a gift and decades of experience. I always thought they took a big step backwards when they replaced that with a half-dozen awkwardly aligned SPOSE. The room clearly wanted a center cluster. Probably Danley.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Jack Arnott on January 25, 2017, 04:22:24 AM
Working in an arena in Shin Yokahama Japan and it by far the best sounding arena I have ever been in!
The gig is playback for a skate show and the local crew hung a bunch of Meyer cabs.
Rig sounds nice but the room is the real star here. :)
Eveywhere I look, there is evidence of a real attention to correct , broad spectrum, acoustic control.
This should be required study for anyone building a large, multipurpose sports facility.

On the other hand,the practice rink?
Well let's just say I could go back today and listen to yesterday's music.
Hard flat surfaces as far as the eye can see. Oh yes, and "snowballs" for speakers. :(

I went to see Adele in St Paul at their Hockey arena, and the sound was great. It seems they put some effort into the building being used for concerts. Hockey is a different feel than basketball, in the promotional aspect, so I can see the difference being a better production with hockey. Ivan could be describing the arena I used to work at for NBA basketball. Gah, it was the worst, and they loved it that way. I was in meetings where they would talk about it. Bottom line was, were people showing up for concerts. They were, so they saw no need in making it a better experience.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Stephen Kirby on January 25, 2017, 06:27:31 PM
They need some sort of variable acoustics for different events.  Maybe a fairly damped building with some reflective panels that can be brought out of hiding.  Similar to the things hanging over the orchestra at Davies Symphony Hall.  If done cleverly, together with the hard floor or ice, they can reflect crowd noise at the audience during sporting events ratcheting up the excitement but keeping the level reasonable for the players.

This would be similar to the test theater I've previously described from my days at Dolby where there were roll up packing blankets along the walls (behind cosmetic cloth screens).  You rolled them down for cinema or up in various degrees for speeches or recording.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Dave Pluke on January 27, 2017, 09:37:04 AM
I went to see Adele in St Paul at their Hockey arena, and the sound was great. It seems they put some effort into the building being used for concerts.

Although the firm I was with did not work on that arena, I was in town at the time and can confirm that acoustics were actually considered in design (what a concept!).

Ivan could be describing the arena I used to work at for NBA basketball. Gah, it was the worst, and they loved it that way.

Are you referring to the arena kitty-corner from First Ave?  That one, I did work on (from a Structural Engineering perspective).  I wasn't in any high-level meetings, but recall more emphasis placed upon Multi-use capabilities (and number of seats for each type of event) than on acoustics.  We were instructed to design for hanging loads over one end of the arena only.  The short-sightedness of that became apparent very early on, with several shows "in the round" requiring reevaluation of capacities.

I understand that venue has undergone a couple of facelifts since.  The last time I was there was 7/7/7 - and, the acoustics hadn't yet been improved.

Dave
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: lindsay Dean on January 27, 2017, 02:46:41 PM
  The ultimate multi purpose arena /  room would have panels built like the old school bill boards that have multiple vertical vanes turned for each  style event ie
surface 1 reflective = sports
surface 2 diffusion =orchestra/choir
surface 3 absorption = sound reinforcement
mix and match your needs. (patent pending)
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Christian Tepfer on January 30, 2017, 08:46:10 AM
  The ultimate multi purpose arena /  room would have panels built like the old school bill boards that have multiple vertical vanes turned for each  style event ie
surface 1 reflective = sports
surface 2 diffusion =orchestra/choir
surface 3 absorption = sound reinforcement
mix and match your needs. (patent pending)
No sports in there, but a church in nothern Germany comes into my mind.
They treated the walls with adjustable surface 2 <-> surface 3 panels. You can adjust the dryness. Nice.

I don't think you can bring all 3 together. Especially when a sports venue should be "loud", as most of the modern stadiums are (and Camp Nou is especially not, making it a potential concert venue, but a shitty stadium to watch football (some would call it soccer, the game where the ball is played by foot most of the time))
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 30, 2017, 09:33:17 AM
A sporting event can still be fun and exciting, provide a competitive environment and generate revenue even if the venue isn't "loud".
So if the venue is really "multipurpose" then I would bias the design to music and other events.
I suspect the lack of proper acoustic design, in all kinds of rooms, including restaurants and retail, is a result of "we don't want to spend the money" ::)
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Mike Caldwell on January 30, 2017, 03:57:49 PM
I'm not so sure that sports arenas or school gyms are designed to be loud but just are due to lack of any acoustical design and that they are just a large big box full or hard reflective surfaces.
On the other hand I work in a schools auditeria with a stage where they tried to implement an acoustic design by suspending several 4 X 8 sheets of hard reflective fiberglass panels in a semi parabolic reflector shape that wonderfully reflects the room sound back on to the stage!!!

I'm sure that was not a cheap extra when that school was built a few years.

Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Hyam Sosnow on January 30, 2017, 08:24:12 PM
I went to see Adele in St Paul at their Hockey arena, and the sound was great. It seems they put some effort into the building being used for concerts. Hockey is a different feel than basketball, in the promotional aspect, so I can see the difference being a better production with hockey. Ivan could be describing the arena I used to work at for NBA basketball. Gah, it was the worst, and they loved it that way. I was in meetings where they would talk about it. Bottom line was, were people showing up for concerts. They were, so they saw no need in making it a better experience.

Would that by any chance be the St. Paul Civic Center Arena? Back in 1977 I saw Emerson, Lake & Palmer there, with full symphony orchestra and chorus, and it was without a doubt the best sound I'd ever heard at a rock show in a large arena. (The system was a bunch of Clair S4s).
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Erik Jerde on February 01, 2017, 11:40:14 PM

ALL RIGHTY THEN, I have never run into a situation in which the shoes of the bride dictated the acoustics.

You see new stuff every day----------

I'm working on a project now where I (along with others on the team) managed to convince the building committee to ditch the center aisle and a center staircase to the platform.  It was there ONLY for weddings.  There's another smaller room (500 vs 1100) with a center aisle that's much more suitable for weddings in the church.  People walking up and down an aisle really does a number on virtual pastor video shots.

Speaking of video, I had another church who wouldn't let me put the projector they got in the proper place in the room.  It would have gotten in the way of wedding pictures.  Now it's hung off the front of a balcony with a wall mount and much more susceptible to vibrations.

Can't win 'em all.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 21, 2018, 11:19:40 AM
I think using a acoustic blankets (https://www.soundblanketcurtain.com/product/acoustic-blankets/) will be my choice.Great design and perfection which suits our choice
Milind,

As noted in the other thread (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,152250.20.html), your Display Name *DOES* need to be your Real, Full Name. Please return to your Profile and update your Display Name to reflect your Real, Full Name to continue participating in these forums.

Also, you've linked twice now to the same website (different URL, same site). I hope that if you are in any way affiliated with that company, you will disclose such affiliation in compliance with the rules on manufacturer participation (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,141858.0.html). Alternatively, a quick explanation of how you're aware of that company (i.e. "My venue's used them several times and the product has been great!") will alleviate any concerns regarding a potential conflict of interest.

Thanks!

Ray
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 21, 2018, 11:51:22 AM
Milind,

As noted in the other thread (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,152250.20.html), your Display Name *DOES* need to be your Real, Full Name. Please return to your Profile and update your Display Name to reflect your Real, Full Name to continue participating in these forums.

Also, you've linked twice now to the same website (different URL, same site). I hope that if you are in any way affiliated with that company, you will disclose such affiliation in compliance with the rules on manufacturer participation (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,141858.0.html). Alternatively, a quick explanation of how you're aware of that company (i.e. "My venue's used them several times and the product has been great!") will alleviate any concerns regarding a potential conflict of interest.

Thanks!

Ray

It's SPAM, Ray.  And it's deleted.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 21, 2018, 12:58:18 PM
It's SPAM, Ray.  And it's deleted.
Yeaaahhhhhh and you know me, always hoping for the best intentions from people. :-)

-Ray
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: John Fruits on May 21, 2018, 01:29:09 PM
It's SPAM, Ray.  And it's deleted.
HEY!!! What's wrong with SPAM (this is also a reference to the unwarranted PEAVEY bashing that goes on), If it's good enough for all those people in Hawaii and Monty Python, it's good enough for me.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 21, 2018, 02:02:35 PM
HEY!!! What's wrong with SPAM (this is also a reference to the unwarranted PEAVEY bashing that goes on), If it's good enough for all those people in Hawaii and Monty Python, it's good enough for me.

Eggs bacon and Spam, Spam Spam and Spam.

Hormel is happy now. ;)
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Dave Garoutte on May 21, 2018, 03:50:19 PM
Eggs bacon and Spam, Spam Spam and Spam.

Hormel is happy now. ;)
You should state if you're an authorized Hormel dealer or you will be punished.
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Keith Broughton on May 22, 2018, 06:19:59 AM
Eggs bacon and Spam, Spam Spam and Spam.

Hormel is happy now. ;)
But I don't like Spam! ;D
Title: Re: best arena sound...ever!
Post by: Luke Geis on May 22, 2018, 12:25:40 PM
I live near UCSB and their basketball arena is called The Thunderdome. Apparently in the late 80's after a resurgence in the Gaucho's basketball team, it was so loud that one commentator said it was louder than thunder in there. It became more popularly known as the Thunderdome right around then.  The floor of the arena is ranked as being the third best design for a basketball floor. Perhaps why it sounds sort of like thunder when everyone is stomping feet and yelling?

I did sound there once many years ago with a Meyer Mica array. It was ok, but the room just allows sound to roll around for ever it seems. The venue is really nice though and the seating is neat. It is a multipurpose facility and the bleachers roll out onto the floor from all directions. With up to 5,000 people screaming and stomping feet, it must get loud, because it is not that big of a facility for that many people.