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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: g'bye, Dick Rees on June 30, 2014, 04:15:53 PM
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Looking for your experience with compatible external hard drives for use with Qu-drive multi-track recording. I'm using an old Seagate 500 GB model and it works fine...so far.
What works for you? Any massive FAILS to avoid?
TIA for sharing.
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Looking for your experience with compatible external hard drives for use with Qu-drive multi-track recording.
The Qu manual initially warned against using USB flash drives for multi-track recording but I have used these for 15+ recordings without fail:
http://www.sandisk.com/products/usb/drives/extreme/
Now, the QuDrive knowledgebase page from A&H lists those flash drives as acceptable.
http://allen-heath.helpserve.com/Knowledgebase/Article/View/774/273/understanding-qu-drive-and-usb
The write speeds meet or exceed most USB hard disks. When first testing a new USB HDD, I bumped it during multi-track playback and it hiccuped. This put me off of using spinning disks for this purpose and on to looking for a flash based solution.
The downside is that the flash drives aren't as large as most HDD's but I always reformat them before each recording anyway to help ensure the best performance. I'd do that with an HDD also.
--Edit--
PS: I also bought one of these cables to help keep from hitting the drive and breaking it or the USB port when in use:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002KNI796/
The USB connector is much shorter than the drive when inserted into the USB slot and it allows the drive to hang out of the way behind the mixer.
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I noticed the approval of the Sandisk sticks today. Funny how the "approved list changes every so often. That's why I started this thread...
Which size Sandisk are you using?
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Which size Sandisk are you using?
I'm using a 16GB and a 32GB Sandisk USB Extreme 3.0
I keep two in order to have a spare. I swap up which one I'm using so both end up getting used.
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I'm using a 16GB and a 32GB Sandisk USB Extreme 3.0
I keep two in order to have a spare. I swap up which one I'm using so both end up getting used.
I've just begun recording with the Qu, so looking for best practices. Yes, i've heard of the skips with spinning discs, but for the cost of one hi-speed stick I can get 5x as much capacity with the hard drives.
We'll see how things balance out. I'll be watching for sale prices...
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I've just begun recording with the Qu, so looking for best practices. Yes, i've heard of the skips with spinning discs, but for the cost of one hi-speed stick I can get 5x as much capacity with the hard drives.
We'll see how things balance out. I'll be watching for sale prices...
I wonder if any of the cheaper USB 3.0 drives are fast enough. I bought a 32gb drive on sale a couple of months ago for <$25. I know the recordings I make with my Mackie Onyx 1640 tend to be <10gb when I record 14-18 channels at 48k into Reaper for around an hour.
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Corey/Dick -
Couple questions you guys might be able to answer: how much recording are you doing on those sticks?
I currently use Reaper and an X32, but am looking to possibly get the QU24, and this is one option a lot of clients are beginning to ask me for, so I am curious as the size of the files comparative to time spent recording if that makes sense?
Have you brought any of the files into software, did it play nice? Does it names the files by what channel they were recorded from ? Sound quality once imported?
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Couple questions you guys might be able to answer: how much recording are you doing on those sticks?
I record once per week for about 75-90 minutes.
I currently use Reaper and an X32, but am looking to possibly get the QU24, and this is one option a lot of clients are beginning to ask me for, so I am curious as the size of the files comparative to time spent recording if that makes sense?
Uncompressed audio file size is easily calculable. It's the same for anything recording in PCM format (which is pretty much everything)
Try this: http://www.sounddevices.com/calculator/
It works out to about 500MB per track per hour for 24bit/48k
Have you brought any of the files into software, did it play nice? Does it names the files by what channel they were recorded from ? Sound quality once imported?
No problems importing files here. WAV files are pretty basic in the first place.
The files are numbered by channel in my version of the firmware--which might be 1 revision behind.
The sound quality should be exactly bit-for-bit as it is heard from the console with no processing. Nothing changes when it's written to disk. The sound quality of the preamps and converters in the console is just fine for live use and likely pretty good for project studios too.
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Have used WD My Passport 1TB and WD My Passport 500Gb with absolutely no issues at all.
Many folks on the A&H website were complaining that even some of the 'approved' drives were causing skipping yet some others not on the list were working well. It was also noted by quite a few people that vibration was a factor in the skipping issues and some found that if they laid the drive on foam, it completely eliminated the skipping. Others said it made no difference.
I have formatted on most occasions but yet on others I have not. Each time I have got great results.
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Great info so far. Next question:
A&H recommend not starting and stopping the process, but that doesn't make any sense to me as I use the stop/re-arm/go to make tracks. I could find no other way to make them or to set any markers in a continuous run as they imply.
Making a new track takes a second or two, maybe longer if the track is more than 5 minutes...so I do lose something in the process. Any thoughts/experience with setting tracks live?
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Have used WD My Passport 1TB and WD My Passport 500Gb with absolutely no issues at all.
Many folks on the A&H website were complaining that even some of the 'approved' drives were causing skipping yet some others not on the list were working well. It was also noted by quite a few people that vibration was a factor in the skipping issues and some found that if they laid the drive on foam, it completely eliminated the skipping. Others said it made no difference.
I have formatted on most occasions but yet on others I have not. Each time I have got great results.
I bought a WD 1TB shortly after buying my QU24 last month. Finally recorded a gig two weeks ago with it and got around to setting up the mixer and speakers on Sunday to have a listen. Sounds beautiful and no issues. I'm going to try and mix down to two track using Audacity on my laptop-figure at worst I can take the main L/R outputs and pump them through my USB preamp feeding the laptop and Audacity, USB to USB would be nice though.
We'll find out.
Best regards,
John
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Usually I keep running for each set and only stop recording for breaks. However, I used the stop start method one time and had no issues other than as you say Dick - processing delays.
BTW... How did your recording turn out last weekend?
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Usually I keep running for each set and only stop recording for breaks. However, I used the stop start method one time and had no issues other than as you say Dick - processing delays.
BTW... How did your recording turn out last weekend?
Fine, thanks. Am working on mastering now and once again finding out that "less is more".
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Fine, thanks. Am working on mastering now and once again finding out that "less is more".
The recording is the easy part by far - then the work begins right?
I have the 'don't know when to stop' syndrome and sometimes I just have to stay away from it for a day or 2 and revisit it. When I do, I hear things I never heard before and my aspect changes.
I spend most of my time on the drums and vocals- everything else needs very little work IF the source material was of good quality of course.
Most of my musical career was spent in the 80's so I have to make sure I stay economical with my vocal FX....otherwise I end up with that typical 'Big hair- big room' sound. As you say- less is more!
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The recording is the easy part by far - then the work begins right?
I have the 'don't know when to stop' syndrome and sometimes I just have to stay away from it for a day or 2 and revisit it. When I do, I hear things I never heard before and my aspect changes.
I spend most of my time on the drums and vocals- everything else needs very little work IF the source material was of good quality of course.
Most of my musical career was spent in the 80's so I have to make sure I stay economical with my vocal FX....otherwise I end up with that typical 'Big hair- big room' sound. As you say- less is more!
I ran all 18 tracks as a practice run, but I'm just using the spaced pair of KSM 44's and a smidgen of piano mics for the mix. Event was 160 voice Swedish choir concert. Pipe organ on one number, 5 piece folk ensemble on occasion, piano on most and 30 piece brass band on the closing number.
I could spend days working with the individual mics and never come close to the sound of the spaced pair...
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I ran all 18 tracks as a practice run, but I'm just using the spaced pair of KSM 44's and a smidgen of piano mics for the mix. Event was 160 voice Swedish choir concert. Pipe organ on one number, 5 piece folk ensemble on occasion, piano on most and 30 piece brass band on the closing number.
I could spend days working with the individual mics and never come close to the sound of the spaced pair...
That blows my mind!
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Sorry to dig up an old thread. I have been pulling my hair out trying to find some compatible USB thumb drives for stereo recordings. I have the Sandisk Extreme 3.0 32g (among several others) mentioned earlier. Does not work. I tried formatting it on the QU, it just stays at 0%, I tried formatting on a PC first. They try formatting on QU- no dice. I have tried at least a dozen different drives and the only one that works is an old Kingston that is no longer made. I have a customer who is chomping at the bit for me to get this resolved. Am I doing something wrong when I format? I'm stumped.
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Sorry to dig up an old thread. I have been pulling my hair out trying to find some compatible USB thumb drives for stereo recordings. I have the Sandisk Extreme 3.0 32g (among several others) mentioned earlier. Does not work. I tried formatting it on the QU, it just stays at 0%, I tried formatting on a PC first. They try formatting on QU- no dice. I have tried at least a dozen different drives and the only one that works is an old Kingston that is no longer made. I have a customer who is chomping at the bit for me to get this resolved. Am I doing something wrong when I format? I'm stumped.
mmm - it can be a bit of a toss up but I have had zero issues with (flash drives) 1) Sandisk extreme of any gb size, 2) PNY, 3) Toshiba and in hard drives - HD - most types.
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You might be formatting with an improper file structure on the computer.
You will want a formatter that can format discs larger than 32gB to the Fat32 filesystem(hint, windows can't natively do this and I'm not sure mac can either).
https://fat32-format.en.softonic.com
http://www.ridgecrop.demon.co.uk/index.htm?guiformat.htm
https://www.wikihow.com/Format-FAT32#Windows_.28Drives_Larger_than_32_GB.29_sub
Once it is formatted in windows, insert into the QU/SQ and format AGAIN there, this will set up the file structure and such.
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You might be formatting with an improper file structure on the computer.
You will want a formatter that can format discs larger than 32gB to the Fat32 filesystem(hint, windows can't do this).
https://fat32-format.en.softonic.com
http://www.ridgecrop.demon.co.uk/index.htm?guiformat.htm
https://www.wikihow.com/Format-FAT32#Windows_.28Drives_Larger_than_32_GB.29_sub
Once it is formatted in windows, insert into the QU/SQ and format AGAIN there, this will set up the file structure and such.
Thanks for the replies.
Nathan, great links. I never thought of using the mac to try formatting. I’ll try a few using it today and see how it goes. I did get one of the sticks to work ladt night by using the “long” format on the PC, so at least it gets me out of my immediate bind.
Thanks again.
BJ
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Thanks for the replies.
Nathan, great links. I never thought of using the mac to try formatting. I’ll try a few using it today and see how it goes. I did get one of the sticks to work ladt night by using the “long” format on the PC, so at least it gets me out of my immediate bind.
Thanks again.
BJ
I meant to say natively, I'm not sure if Mac's can either. I just know to use my 64gig USB 3.0 SanDisk flashdrive I had to format it with an external utility. After that A&H recognized & formatted it easily (up to 2 TB).
Happy to help :)
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SanDisk Extreme Portable SSD 250GB, model number SDSSDE60-250G.
Using my Qu-16 I did a multitrack test recording with this drive. 18 tracks recorded for 45 minutes. Recorded and played back flawlessly.
And the Qu formatted this drive without having to reformat on a computer.
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I used to record a bunch of classical ensemble stuff and I'd always run a pair of B&K's or C414's through a Manley pre to a DAT as a safety copy.
No matter what I used when I tried to multitrack and mix the same shows, I never did get it to sound as good as the stereo pair in the nice room we were using.
I've always used Kingston flash drives when possible and have never had an issue. I've used Kingston RAM exclusively for decades, as well. I think it's the best stuff out there.
I ran all 18 tracks as a practice run, but I'm just using the spaced pair of KSM 44's and a smidgen of piano mics for the mix. Event was 160 voice Swedish choir concert. Pipe organ on one number, 5 piece folk ensemble on occasion, piano on most and 30 piece brass band on the closing number.
I could spend days working with the individual mics and never come close to the sound of the spaced pair...
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A&H go out of their way to tell you not to use thumbdrives. You'll struggle to find anything that works.
Just about any rotating-media disk will work. I have had luck with SSD too.
But forget about thumbdrives.
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A&H go out of their way to tell you not to use thumbdrives. You'll struggle to find anything that works.
Just about any rotating-media disk will work. I have had luck with SSD too.
But forget about thumbdrives.
I disagree. They have plenty of usb thumdrives that are rated and work for the QU/SQ multitrack recording. I have personally used my PNY 3.0 64gig drive to record multitrack just fine on QU/SQ.
Would I use it for a mission-critical event? No, I'd use a 500GB/s WRITE SSD HDD instead (tested to USB 2.0 standards).
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I use my same 2 Sandisk USB3 64gb thumb drives ALL THE TIME and I have never had a failure yet. I used to find that the rotating hard drives were quite sensitive to vibration so I would always make sure to place them on foam to avoid that. This isn't an issue with thumb drives.
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Every time I use a thumb drive I get error readings. I use a Western Digital Passport USB hard drive with no issues..
Edit.. The full name is WD My Passport Ultra
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I use my same 2 Sandisk USB3 64gb thumb drives ALL THE TIME and I have never had a failure yet. I used to find that the rotating hard drives were quite sensitive to vibration so I would always make sure to place them on foam to avoid that. This isn't an issue with thumb drives.
Yeah, A&H say the SanDisk Ultra USB 3.0 64G is tested and compatible. Yes and no. I have two visually identical flash drives: one works, IDs, formats, and records just fine, the other locks up on format. Re-format on MAC, Windows, and third-party fat-32 formatter, still no dice in the QU-PAC or QU-SB. Spent hours a week or two ago trying to get something to work enough to just copy a scene - not even recording!
Although apparently identical (bought same time, same BB retailer) they are not the same. SanDisk is famous for changing circuit components/designs and the only visible difference is the actual part number (in unreadably small type). This has been the case since the early MB versions of Compact Flash cards. SanDisk is not alone in these practices.
Now I will say, that when they work, they do work well. In the years I've owned QU, this was the first problem I've run across with flash drives. We record on the flash drives very often with usually one error within the first minute or two of the recording.
Final thought: FAT-32 has a maximum of 4GB individual file size. I don't know what that turns out to be in terms of recording length, but can be calculated with a little research.
YMMV,
frank
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Appx 3hrs per channel per Gb of storage at 44.1 WAV.
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SanDisk SDCZ880-256G-G46 Extreme... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N7QDO7M?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
This 256gB flash drive works flawlessly on my QU16.
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Am I doing something wrong when I format? I'm stumped.
You're not doing anything wrong. A&H's USB drivers are terrible. The old Sandisk Extreme 3.0 was reliable. They don't make it any more, and the 3.1 replacement doesn't work at all.
I've given up on USB multitracking from my A&H boards altogether. Recording to a laptop is just better in so many ways. Reliability, named files, choose which tracks are being recorded, files are already in your DAW with no importing, etc etc.
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You're not doing anything wrong. A&H's USB drivers are terrible. The old Sandisk Extreme 3.0 was reliable. They don't make it any more, and the 3.1 replacement doesn't work at all.
I've given up on USB multitracking from my A&H boards altogether. Recording to a laptop is just better in so many ways. Reliability, named files, choose which tracks are being recorded, files are already in your DAW with no importing, etc etc.
You shouldn't give up on multitrack recording with your QU. The flash drive model I suggested a few posts up works flawlessly
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This thread and the wildly divergent results sited is bizarre.
Maybe it's time to ask why at the the source..
https://community.allen-heath.com/forums/topic/qu-drive-compatible-usb-device-database
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The problem is well understood. The Qu has little (no?) ability to buffer data being written. If the receiving media says "stop, wait a moment" then the Qu has no place to hold the data.
The behaviour of the Qu is entirely predictable. The behaviour of the USB thumbdrives varies wildly.
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Here's a handy reference:
https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/calculating-hard-disk-space-required-for-digital-audio-recording/
Appx 3hrs per channel per Gb of storage at 44.1 WAV.
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The problem is well understood. The Qu has little (no?) ability to buffer data being written. If the receiving media says "stop, wait a moment" then the Qu has no place to hold the data.
The behaviour of the Qu is entirely predictable. The behaviour of the USB thumbdrives varies wildly.
Exactly. The only drives I have found to work had tested write speeds above 100 MB/s. My JoeCo recorder could reliably record 24 channels of 24 bit 44k to a USB drive with a write speed of 5 MB/s. Hence my contention that A&H's drivers are terrible.
The JoeCo also had a visible buffer display that could show you if you were getting into trouble. In the event of a power drop, it would recover lost files on bootup. That was a well written recorder.
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This thread and the wildly divergent results sited is bizarre.
Maybe it's time to ask why at the the source..
https://community.allen-heath.com/forums/topic/qu-drive-compatible-usb-device-database
That database lists contradictory results, includes many drives with names that are too incomplete to identify the specific drive, and is largely unverified.
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The problem is well understood. The Qu has little (no?) ability to buffer data being written. If the receiving media says "stop, wait a moment" then the Qu has no place to hold the data.
The behaviour of the Qu is entirely predictable. The behaviour of the USB thumbdrives varies wildly.
Haven't searched yet but I'd be interested if this is improved in the SQ series?
Thanks
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I'm sure that it got fixed in the SQ!
I think A&H probably implemented the Qu USB recording interface within the real-time portions of the mixer's circuitry, relying on the buffering present in rotating-media drives necessary to cope with HDD head movements. A design choice that probably seemed pragmatic, effective and efficient at the time, but it hasn't worked out due to user behaviour.
Users expect that they can plug in any dang USB thumbdrive. The fact that the manual says dont do this is ignored by users. The result is dissatisfaction with the amount of time trying to get something working that was never meant to work in the first place.
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I'm sure that it got fixed in the SQ!
Absolutely not.
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I'm sure that it got fixed in the SQ!
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Users expect that they can plug in any dang USB thumbdrive. The fact that the manual says dont do this is ignored by users. The result is dissatisfaction with the amount of time trying to get something working that was never meant to work in the first place.
A user should be able to plug any decent quality thumbdrive to simply save scenes or even record stereo. I don’t expect to multitrack without a HDD, but trying to find a suitable thumbdrive for simple scene save is frustrating. The drives that work today may not be availble for sale tomorrow, and the whole process starts again.
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A user should be able to plug any decent quality thumbdrive to simply save scenes or even record stereo. I don’t expect to multitrack without a HDD, but trying to find a suitable thumbdrive for simple scene save is frustrating. The drives that work today may not be availble for sale tomorrow, and the whole process starts again.
What drives are you having issue saving scenes or doing stereo recording?
I installed an SQ6 recently and grabbed a random old off-brand 1G flash drive and it did everything just fine including multitrack recordings.
Anecdotal evidence and all that, but are people really having issues saving scenes?
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What drives are you having issue saving scenes or doing stereo recording?
I installed an SQ6 recently and grabbed a random old off-brand 1G flash drive and it did everything just fine including multitrack recordings.
Anecdotal evidence and all that, but are people really having issues saving scenes?
Why is this difficult for you to believe? I've had a number of different consoles not "like" a variety of USB flash drives. The most forgiving desks are Avid Venue, followed by Yamaha. Everything else I've touched has been picky to some degree or another.
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A user should be able to plug any decent quality thumbdrive to simply save scenes or even record stereo. I don’t expect to multitrack without a HDD, but trying to find a suitable thumbdrive for simple scene save is frustrating. The drives that work today may not be availble for sale tomorrow, and the whole process starts again.
I absolutely agree that that is the user expectation. Maybe A&H should have written "HDD only" under the USB A socket on the Qu.
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Maybe A&H should have written "HDD only" under the USB A socket on the Qu.
Or put some buffers into their write code, instead of relying on raw drive speed.
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I absolutely agree that that is the user expectation. Maybe A&H should have written "HDD only" under the USB A socket on the Qu.
Are you familiar with the QU’s ? If not, you should be aware that there is a USB A on the surface, specifically for scene save and stereo 2 track recording. On the rear patch panel resides a USB B that is specifally for a HDD for mutitrack or a computer connection.
I think I’m missing something with the inference that users are misguided by thinking they can use the USB A for exactly what the manual states it is for.
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Are you familiar with the QU’s ? If not, you should be aware that there is a USB A on the surface, specifically for scene save and stereo 2 track recording. On the rear patch panel resides a USB B that is specifally for a HDD for mutitrack or a computer connection.
I think I’m missing something with the inference that users are misguided by thinking they can use the USB A for exactly what the manual states it is for.
Yes, you're missing the "HDD only" part of the quote. That USB A is pretty reliable with hard drives, presumably because they have their own buffers. Much more picky about USB sticks.
Also note that you can multitrack 18 channels on the USB A. I wouldn't count on it for anything mission critical, though.
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Why is this difficult for you to believe? I've had a number of different consoles not "like" a variety of USB flash drives. The most forgiving desks are Avid Venue, followed by Yamaha. Everything else I've touched has been picky to some degree or another.
I find it hard to believe that once the usb drive is recognized by the console that saving/restoring configs would have any issues with any usb drive.
If I follow the manufacturer's suggested steps for working with USB I generally don't have issues with USB drives on any console.
Typically it is due to a file system structure (fat, fat32, exFat, ntfs, etc) mismatch and the console can't format to the preferred structure.
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Are you familiar with the QU’s ? If not, you should be aware that there is a USB A on the surface, specifically for scene save and stereo 2 track recording. On the rear patch panel resides a USB B that is specifally for a HDD for mutitrack or a computer connection.
I think I’m missing something with the inference that users are misguided by thinking they can use the USB A for exactly what the manual states it is for.
Unless I'm missing something I'm not finding anything indicating recording via USB port B can be done direct to a drive.
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The manual is very clear that stereo and multitrack is supported to a USB hard drive via the USB A connector on the top surface.
It is also clear that hard drives are supported but USB keys (aka thumbdrives) are not.
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The manual is very clear that stereo and multitrack is supported to a USB hard drive via the USB A connector on the top surface.
It is also clear that hard drives are supported but USB keys (aka thumbdrives) are not.
Not quite:
"Scene, Library and Show memories - All Qu mixer memories are
compatible. Files created on one model can be transferred via USB key and
loaded on another..."
And then:
"USB Audio - A USB hard drive formatted on one model can be used on the
other. Stereo and multitrack Qu-Drive recordings are compatible. USB B
audio streaming is compatible...."
When I see "USB key" I immediately think thumbdrive....not USB hard drive.
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You are probably right about the "usb key" reference on config files. Key=thumbdrive, and many sold today don't work.
Streaming via USB B is to a computer. At one stage they said Mac only (no PCs) but I don't know if that is still the case.
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Streaming via USB B is to a computer. At one stage they said Mac only (no PCs) but I don't know if that is still the case.
It hasn't been the case for years. I hook up a Windows laptop to my Qu. There is an issue with laptops, both Mac and PC, when they have Intel chipsets. (Apparently Intel changed some chip protocol that caused this problem and won't be changing that, even after A&H contacted them about the issue). Streaming can become dicey, with occasional noise introduced into the stream (either sending or receiving) that sounds like sample rate incompatibility. A&H has tried to alleviate the issue with firmware updates on both the Qu and SQ with some success.
But the way to completely rid oneself of the USB B streaming problem is to get a laptop with an AMD chipset. I just purchased a relatively inexpensive laptop with an AMD chipset and processor and had absolutely no issues streaming to my Qu 16 via the USB B port in either my testing or on a gig.
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Good jnfo. Thanks.