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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: David Shriver on April 02, 2012, 11:36:55 AM
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Hello everyone,
I am working on an AV install in our reception hall. I'm thinking of using the new Meyer Sound CAL units but I'm wondering if anyone has other recommendations. I've looked at the JBL CBT series, Tannoy QFlex, and the Innovox Line Arrays as well. I haven't used any of these products myself though so I'm hoping someone will have a recommendation for me. Thanks!
-d
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Hello everyone,
I am working on an AV install in our reception hall. I'm thinking of using the new Meyer Sound CAL units but I'm wondering if anyone has other recommendations. I've looked at the JBL CBT series, Tannoy QFlex, and the Innovox Line Arrays as well. I haven't used any of these products myself though so I'm hoping someone will have a recommendation for me. Thanks!
-d
It would first help to give a better description of exactly what you are trying to "accomplish" with the system-AND some specifics about the room.
With what was given-suggestions could be all over the map-and none of them apply to specifically what you want to do and the room you have to work with.
Next-when you say "copmpact" line array-I would assume you are talking about a small horizontal size. The vertical size requirement of the array does not change. If it needs to be 10' tall to have "line array behavor" to the distance you have (yours may be longer or shorter-we have no idea)-then you will need a lot more of the "compact" boxes to achieve it.
If you are going to try and use 3 "compact" boxes-then you no longer have a line array. You have 3 small boxes stacked on top of each other.
With the models listed-you have a really wide price range. It would also help quite a bit to know what sort of budget you have-FOR THE LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEM (amps and processing included in that price)-NOT the price for the whole install.
Much mroe infromation is needed.
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Hello everyone,
I am working on an AV install in our reception hall. I'm thinking of using the new Meyer Sound CAL units but I'm wondering if anyone has other recommendations. I've looked at the JBL CBT series, Tannoy QFlex, and the Innovox Line Arrays as well. I haven't used any of these products myself though so I'm hoping someone will have a recommendation for me. Thanks!
-d
How did you arrive at these options? Are you trying to put together a system design yourself to then be put out to bid or are the different solutions noted what mutliple Contractors or vendors recommended?
The primary reason I ask is that the Meyer CAL and the Tannoy QFlex are powered, beam steerable arrays while the JBL CBT are unpowered boxes with fixed, but selectable, coverage arrays and Innovox offers both powered and unpowered models, but apparently all with fixed patterns. So you've noted multiple different general product categories that also cover a very wide range of costs. This suggests some lack of clarity regarding what is really wanted or appropriate for the application.
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Sure Ivan,
Let me give you some more info.
The space is a the reception hall in our Performing Arts Center. It is a multi use room that gets used for everything from corporate meetings, wedding receptions, cabaret dinner performances, parties, dinners, etc, etc. The largest audience is about 250 for a standing cocktail reception. The most demanding audio situation is when we setup tables for about 100 people to do a cabaret style performance. In this setting we are amplifying a singer, piano, bass, and sometimes a guitar. The other real challenging scenerio is a wedding DJ. Currently we are covering both of these setups with 4 QSC K12s on stands and a QSC K-Sub.
The room is roughly cross shape. If you'll look at my (poor) diagram below the "x" are the planned locations for speakers. Audio budget for this is probably in the 20k-30k range.
_____
___|x x |____
| |
| |
|___ ___|
| x x |
| |
| |
| |
|_____|
It would first help to give a better description of exactly what you are trying to "accomplish" with the system-AND some specifics about the room.
With what was given-suggestions could be all over the map-and none of them apply to specifically what you want to do and the room you have to work with.
Next-when you say "copmpact" line array-I would assume you are talking about a small horizontal size. The vertical size requirement of the array does not change. If it needs to be 10' tall to have "line array behavor" to the distance you have (yours may be longer or shorter-we have no idea)-then you will need a lot more of the "compact" boxes to achieve it.
If you are going to try and use 3 "compact" boxes-then you no longer have a line array. You have 3 small boxes stacked on top of each other.
With the models listed-you have a really wide price range. It would also help quite a bit to know what sort of budget you have-FOR THE LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEM (amps and processing included in that price)-NOT the price for the whole install.
Much mroe infromation is needed.
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Hello Brad,
I've used Meyer for multiple installed systems before but I have no experience with the CAL. It was my first thought when this project was proposed. The Tannoy QFlex was specified by the original AV consultant during building construction. The AV system we are installing was planned to be done during construction but was edited out for financial reasons. The solutions from JBL and Innovox were suggested to me by outside contractors.
-d
How did you arrive at these options? Are you trying to put together a system design yourself to then be put out to bid or are the different solutions noted what mutliple Contractors or vendors recommended?
The primary reason I ask is that the Meyer CAL and the Tannoy QFlex are powered, beam steerable arrays while the JBL CBT are unpowered boxes with fixed, but selectable, coverage arrays and Innovox offers both powered and unpowered models, but apparently all with fixed patterns. So you've noted multiple different general product categories that also cover a very wide range of costs. This suggests some lack of clarity regarding what is really wanted or appropriate for the application.
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A bit more info for everyone...
My maximum size for this installation is 9" wide, and 10' high. Depth is very flexible. The plan is to feed the amps via AES from my London BLU DSPs. However, I'd consider doing it via AVB from my London BLU-805s that will be part of this install.
-d
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I've used Meyer for multiple installed systems before but I have no experience with the CAL. It was my first thought when this project was proposed. The Tannoy QFlex was specified by the original AV consultant during building construction. The AV system we are installing was planned to be done during construction but was edited out for financial reasons. The solutions from JBL and Innovox were suggested to me by outside contractors.
It sounds like there could be some potential considerations related to the original design intent and related infrastructure provisions including the intended use of powered speakers, the intended use of beam steering and the intended use of AES audio. If those aspects were part of the original design concept then any deviation may generate other related changes, so I would be wary of suggested deviations from the original design unless they address the full impact of the change. For example, any of the JBL CBT products would likely be less expensive but would their pattern and the limitation to physical aiming work with the speaker locations and mounting requirements defined? And how would the associated amplifiers and multiple speaker cable runs be addressed?
While you noted product series rather than specific products, any of the products in those series are likely going to have difficulty supporting higher output, full range applications such as some of those you noted. Supplemental low frequency devices may be appropriate for some of those applications.
In terms of beam steering type arrays, the Renkus-Heinz Iconyx products, most likely the iC-R series, are a common alternative to the QFlex and CAL products. The Duran Audio Axys Intellivox series is another similar option.
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Hello again Brad,
While I do have the original design documents none of it was implimented. There are no cable runs, conduit, or other infrastructure in place. So pulling AES cable (or cat5) and power or speaker cable doesn't really matter. Its largely a blank slate. I have room in my amp room to accommodate amps and DSP or that could be combined into the loud speaker.
I agree with you that there will be an issue with LFE. My current thought is that I'll likely have to supplement any install with portable subwoofers. There will be an AVP plate installed at the top of the cross so I'll be able to run lines to a sub. Suggestions on a sub to compliment the line arrays would be most welcome.
-d
It sounds like there could be some potential considerations related to the original design intent and related infrastructure provisions including the intended use of powered speakers, the intended use of beam steering and the intended use of AES audio. If those aspects were part of the original design concept then any deviation may generate other related changes, so I would be wary of suggested deviations from the original design unless they address the full impact of the change. For example, any of the JBL CBT products would likely be less expensive but would their pattern and the limitation to physical aiming work with the speaker locations and mounting requirements defined? And how would the associated amplifiers and multiple speaker cable runs be addressed?
While you noted product series rather than specific products, any of the products in those series are likely going to have difficulty supporting higher output, full range applications such as some of those you noted. Supplemental low frequency devices may be appropriate for some of those applications.
In terms of beam steering type arrays, the Renkus-Heinz Iconyx products, most likely the iC-R series, are a common alternative to the QFlex and CAL products. The Duran Audio Axys Intellivox series is another similar option.
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I think another point to make is that the electronically steerable column systems allow you more freedom in placement (height), as the beam they provide can be steered and shaped as needed.
But I would not rule out the CBT and specificaly the CBT70J/E system which has the distinct advantage of going much lower than just about any of the column systems. Response is 45Hz-20kHz. You would probably still need a subwoofer, but it does not need to go up as high. Brad mentioned, but I'll elaborate: this is a fairly inpexpensive passive system with a slightly downward tilt to the beam (so it can be mounted higher) and the choice of 2 vertical coverage patterns. This system sounds very good and gets quite loud. It fits the footprint you outlined.
If you go the digitlly steered route, I advise that the Iconyx from Renkus Heinz has been "out there" for a few years and they have the design and software fairly well developed. This system also goes down to normal subwoofer crossover frequencies and is designed to do music (as well as spoken word) fairly well.
The Meyer system is fairly new and doesn't go very low at all. Plus it is designed for (limited to) spoken word. Not music.
The Intellivox system is also voice only.
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Audio budget for this is probably in the 20k-30k range.
Does that include install labor? Is that price dealer or retail? I assume that does not include any mixers-mics-wall plates-cables- racks or other audio gear?
You also mentioned a 10' height limit. Is that the ceiling height? or the limit of the columns that might be mounted 6-7' off the floor for a total height of 17'?
DETAILS are very important-or you will end up with a lot more questions.
Your speaker layout looks to be a bit odd-especially for the type of loudspeakers you have selected. What is the design thought behind it?
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Hello Brad,
The loud speaker/amp side of this project is budgeted at 20-30k. Anything else (install, mixers, mics, plates, cables, racks, etc) does not get included in that number.
My ceiling height is 12'. The wall curves to the walls which give me a 10' column height where the speakers need to be located.
There are two areas to this room. Please excuse the poor ASCII drawing. The top wide area we refer to as the Sun Room while the other area is the Reception Hall. The main performing area is at the top of the Sun Room but if I only do a speaker install there it has to be painfully loud to provide coverage to the other end of the reception hall. That is why the plan is for a 2nd set of speakers at the opening to the reception hall. I'll convert my CAD RCP into something I can upload here so you can see a more accurate plan of the space.
-d
Does that include install labor? Is that price dealer or retail? I assume that does not include any mixers-mics-wall plates-cables- racks or other audio gear?
You also mentioned a 10' height limit. Is that the ceiling height? or the limit of the columns that might be mounted 6-7' off the floor for a total height of 17'?
DETAILS are very important-or you will end up with a lot more questions.
Your speaker layout looks to be a bit odd-especially for the type of loudspeakers you have selected. What is the design thought behind it?
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The main performing area is at the top of the Sun Room but if I only do a speaker install there it has to be painfully loud to provide coverage to the other end of the reception hall. That is why the plan is for a 2nd set of speakers at the opening to the reception hall.
If you used something like the Intellivox-you could provide the same level from front to back. I have done it quite a few times in rooms up to 100' deep or more. +/-2-3dB. So it doesn't have to be "painfully loud" in area vs another-but proper design has to be done. The bass is a little bit louder up front-but not a huge amount so as to be noticed.
The problem with the Intellivox is that you don't have enough ceiling height. Proper mounting height IS ESSENTIAL! for this type of loudspeaker.
I just wanted to clear up the misconception that the front of the room has to be louder than the rear-which many people think HAS to happen.
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Oh you are absolutely right Ivan. With the right room dimensions a LA can have nice even coverage over the distance I need (about 80'). I just lack the height to fly a system that will accomplish that. Delays seem like best solution with the space constraints I have.
-d
If you used something like the Intellivox-you could provide the same level from front to back. I have done it quite a few times in rooms up to 100' deep or more. +/-2-3dB. So it doesn't have to be "painfully loud" in area vs another-but proper design has to be done. The bass is a little bit louder up front-but not a huge amount so as to be noticed.
The problem with the Intellivox is that you don't have enough ceiling height. Proper mounting height IS ESSENTIAL! for this type of loudspeaker.
I just wanted to clear up the misconception that the front of the room has to be louder than the rear-which many people think HAS to happen.
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Sure Ivan,
Let me give you some more info.
The space is a the reception hall in our Performing Arts Center. It is a multi use room that gets used for everything from corporate meetings, wedding receptions, cabaret dinner performances, parties, dinners, etc, etc. The largest audience is about 250 for a standing cocktail reception. The most demanding audio situation is when we setup tables for about 100 people to do a cabaret style performance. In this setting we are amplifying a singer, piano, bass, and sometimes a guitar. The other real challenging scenerio is a wedding DJ. Currently we are covering both of these setups with 4 QSC K12s on stands and a QSC K-Sub.
The room is roughly cross shape. If you'll look at my (poor) diagram below the "x" are the planned locations for speakers. Audio budget for this is probably in the 20k-30k range.
_____
___|x x |____
| |
| |
|___ ___|
| x x |
| |
| |
| |
|_____|
Another possibility would be the Omniline cabinet system. Single amp channel per array, exceptional good sound quality.
http://www.omniline-ma.com/
It may be possible for your use that subs would not be required but that you could instead utilize perceptual encoding in the tuning processor that would allow you to pass the harmonics only of the bass content. This can create the feeling that the lower fundamentals are present when you are actually hearing the harmonics only. This can really help to clean up a muddy reverberant space. It will not replace a chest thumping bass output.
Lee
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While I do have the original design documents none of it was implimented. There are no cable runs, conduit, or other infrastructure in place. So pulling AES cable (or cat5) and power or speaker cable doesn't really matter. Its largely a blank slate. I have room in my amp room to accommodate amps and DSP or that could be combined into the loud speaker.
The loud speaker/amp side of this project is budgeted at 20-30k. Anything else (install, mixers, mics, plates, cables, racks, etc) does not get included in that number.
While not being constrained by existing infrastructure may allow greater flexibility, because you are dealing with existing, nicely finished, highly public spaces then adding the associated boxes, conduit and power to support the system can be a rather expensive and complex task. Conduit itself may be relatively inexpensive but ripping open and patching walls and ceiling to run it greatly increases the direct cost and also requires time, which in a space like this may represent an indirect cost. So whether the related infrastructure has to be included in the $20k to $30k budget or not, the associated infrastructure may be a factor to consider.
Also related to the infrastructure and the speaker system cost, you might want to think about whether you really need stereo and whether you really need to have the house system support a DJ. Four beam steering arrays and getting the required power to their locations could use all of your budget or even more. If you need to also cover the related installation, testing and tuning of the system with that budget then that may not be feasible. And if you have to add in the cost associated with subwoofers and the related processing for DJ applications and that leaves even less for the arrays. So if you can't cut back to two arrays and possibly delete the DJ application, then beam steering arrays such as the Tannoy QFlex, Meyer Sound CAL, Renkus-Heinx iC-R and Duran Audio Axys Intellivox may not be an option. And that may be exactly why the Contractors you had in suggested less expensive options.
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You might look into the RCF VSA-2050. I haven't used this install model myself but do use their TTL11A portable system among other RCF products.
http://www.rcf.it/en_US/installed-sound-systems/vsa/vsa-2050
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You haven't mentioned them but the Emma and Elijah systems from A-Line Acoustics fit into your requirements and budget quite nicely.
Jim
http://www.a-lineacoustics.com
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You haven't mentioned them but the Emma and Elijah systems from A-Line Acoustics fit into your requirements and budget quite nicely.
Jim
http://www.a-lineacoustics.com (http://www.a-lineacoustics.com)
I say this in the hopes it changes, but the product data offered on the A-Line Acoustics web site seems to prohibit knowing if their products fit the requirements or not. Information such as accurate frequency response information, polars, input levels, EASE or clf files, etc. are absent and it is pretty clear that the specifications offered are not based on any standard procedures or test conditions. For example, the maximum SPL measurements seem to be made using pink noise rather than any of the standard shaped and clipped pink noise sources while they also don't identify if the frequency response, sensitivity and output are whole space or half space. And most noticeable is that at least some of the measurements were apparently preformed in a 24'x36'x14' room of unknown acoustics, which makes specifications such as the maximum output and frequency response sort of pointless since they represent the combination of speaker and room.
However, perhaps most applicable here, the information presented for Emma, Eli and Elijah all address being line arrays and having vertical pattern control don't seem to address the actual patterns. No EASE or clf data, no software, no polars or dispersion chart, not even a nominal vertical pattern value. When the main advantage of the array is the vertical pattern control, not providing any related information is a rather obvious, and baffling, absence.
The A-Line products may be great but the specifications and information offered are of rather limited value for system design or comparison purposes. And that is difficult to understand since there are companies who provide standardized testing services for many speaker manufacturers and thus they could readily obtain such information.
You also may not have been aware, but a bit over a month ago A-Line Acoustics was acquired by Atlas Sound and supposedly beginning in July the A-Line products will be sold through Atlas dealers. Hopefully some of these issues will be resolved as part of that transition.