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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Scott Carneval on July 25, 2016, 12:42:25 pm

Title: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Scott Carneval on July 25, 2016, 12:42:25 pm
Stumbled upon this on Instagram. Fortunately I wasn't at the show to enjoy this in person.

This appears to be 3x QSC KLA12 ratchet strapped to possibly JBL PRX718 subs. I honestly don't think I've ever seen a worse deployment.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/940515c655cb0e7996e8f5a3155700aa.png)


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Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Cailen Waddell on July 25, 2016, 12:58:20 pm
It's Deep South.  From what I understand that's par for the course


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Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Scott Carneval on July 25, 2016, 01:02:27 pm
It's Deep South.  From what I understand that's par for the course


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I've never been to one of their shows. But I have to think even the guy at Guitar Center who sold them the speakers knows better than to 'array' them like this.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Cailen Waddell on July 25, 2016, 01:04:07 pm
I've never been to one of their shows. But I have to think even the guy at Guitar Center who sold them the speakers knows better than to 'array' them like this.

From what I've seen of their rates - they couldn't possibly afford qualified technicians. 

On another note, I can't begin to tell you the number of destination dix jokes I've heard in the last week.


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Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on July 25, 2016, 01:05:26 pm
Stumbled upon this on Instagram. Fortunately I wasn't at the show to enjoy this in person.

This appears to be 3x QSC KLA12 ratchet strapped to possibly JBL PRX718 subs. I honestly don't think I've ever seen a worse deployment.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/940515c655cb0e7996e8f5a3155700aa.png)


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Yes - Sadly not surprising for Raleigh NC.... I have seen more low end equipment and/or bad deployment used in this area than anywhere I have lived. And often for very good bands.... Folks seem to think they can stack a combination of any style, size, shape, quality or condition of PA speakers each side of the stage and the more variety there is - the better it will all sound.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: kel mcguire on July 25, 2016, 01:44:42 pm
Kind of hard to tell from a picture how it sounded..  :) I bet there'd be one of us that could somehow get something out of that config that sort of worked. I would have chosen black straps myself.  8)

those are like 90 x 18 deg HF, right? So you have a 90 x 18 slice on top then a 36(ish) x 90v bottom pair.

Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Tom Roche on July 25, 2016, 01:46:43 pm
Yes - Sadly not surprising for Raleigh NC.... I have seen more low end equipment and/or bad deployment used in this area than anywhere I have lived. And often for very good bands.... Folks seem to think they can stack a combination of any style, size, shape, quality or condition of PA speakers each side of the stage and the more variety there is - the better it will all sound.

It's true in my area, too, Debbie.  Good equipment is the exception, and proper deployment even more rare.  This goes for house systems and band PAs.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Keith Broughton on July 25, 2016, 01:51:24 pm
Other than the top box, what is really wrong with the cabs on their sides?
If there was a balcony (maybe not in this case) or rising seating at the back , it would work fine.
I have used them and they sound the same either way  ;)
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Douglas Stringfellow on July 25, 2016, 02:12:27 pm
I am with Keith Broughton on this one. Other then the box on top, there's nothing wrong with this if the room calls for this type of deployment.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: kel mcguire on July 25, 2016, 02:16:17 pm
Other than the top box, what is really wrong with the cabs on their sides?
If there was a balcony (maybe not in this case) or rising seating at the back , it would work fine.
I have used them and they sound the same either way  ;)

true, but why not bolt them together then and let the fixed arcuate take care of the upper ears?
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Samuel Rees on July 25, 2016, 02:18:43 pm
I am with Keith Broughton on this one. Other then the box on top, there's nothing wrong with this if the room calls for this type of deployment.

Isn't that saying like other than being wrong, it's right? meant all in good fun....
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 25, 2016, 02:31:30 pm
I honestly don't think I've ever seen a worse deployment.

We've seen worse... From an old thread (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,146897.0.html)...
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Scott Carneval on July 25, 2016, 02:44:11 pm
Kind of hard to tell from a picture how it sounded..  :) I bet there'd be one of us that could somehow get something out of that config that sort of worked. I would have chosen black straps myself.  8)

those are like 90 x 18 deg HF, right? So you have a 90 x 18 slice on top then a 36(ish) x 90v bottom pair.

Right. But you have an 18 x 36 slice directly on axis where there is overlap and MASSIVE comb filtering.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Scott Carneval on July 25, 2016, 02:48:44 pm
Other than the top box, what is really wrong with the cabs on their sides?
If there was a balcony (maybe not in this case) or rising seating at the back , it would work fine.
I have used them and they sound the same either way  ;)

I know you can't really tell from the picture, but this was outside in a flat park. The only reason I can think of for this sort of 'arrangement' is they didn't have the means to fly the array, and didn't have the hardware to ground stack it. Ironically this park is directly across the street from their office.

Having the cabs on their sides in and of itself is not an issue. In fact if they put all three on their sides it probably would have worked fairly decent. But having two oriented one way and the other oriented the opposite is a major issue.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Scott Carneval on July 25, 2016, 02:50:07 pm
We've seen worse... From an old thread (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,146897.0.html)...

Wow! Ok, you win! Those are pretty terrible  :o
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Jamin Lynch on July 25, 2016, 03:06:21 pm
Stumbled upon this on Instagram. Fortunately I wasn't at the show to enjoy this in person.

This appears to be 3x QSC KLA12 ratchet strapped to possibly JBL PRX718 subs. I honestly don't think I've ever seen a worse deployment.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/940515c655cb0e7996e8f5a3155700aa.png)


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What speakers? I didn't see any   ;D
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Ken Braziel on July 25, 2016, 03:32:00 pm
Other than the top box, what is really wrong with the cabs on their sides?
If there was a balcony (maybe not in this case) or rising seating at the back , it would work fine.
I have used them and they sound the same either way  ;)

The strap across the front of the inside speaker is going to have a very odd effect on the dispersion of the highs,  that's what stands out to me. Otherwise you're mostly right, the tight "horizontal" dispersion of those speakers might make that setup "mostly OK" horizontally (the sideways pairs), except for the interference between the 90-degree "width" for that bottom one and the 18-degree height for the top.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Justin Perrachon on July 25, 2016, 04:08:52 pm

I know you can't really tell from the picture, but this was outside in a flat park. The only reason I can think of for this sort of 'arrangement' is they didn't have the means to fly the array, and didn't have the hardware to ground stack it. Ironically this park is directly across the street from their office.


Hey Scott,

Deep South Entertainment has lifts and they generally fly their kla12s. In their defense, this picture is from an event at City Limits Saloon, a location that doesn't have space to setup lifts (and does have balcony seating). That being said, if that was my rig, I would probably deploy two kla12s on sticks and a set of front fills as opposed to trying to groundstack.

I'm familiar with their setup because DSE occasionally subcontracts me. Usually it's to setup and run my Fulcrum rig at events, but I have worked on their (flown) kla12 rig a time or two.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Scott Carneval on July 25, 2016, 04:21:20 pm

Hey Scott,

Deep South Entertainment has lifts and they generally fly their kla12s. In their defense, this picture is from an event at City Limits Saloon, a location that doesn't have space to setup lifts (and does have balcony seating). That being said, if that was my rig, I would probably deploy two kla12s on sticks and a set of front fills as opposed to trying to groundstack.

I'm familiar with their setup because DSE occasionally subcontracts me. Usually it's to setup and run my Fulcrum rig at events, but I have worked on their (flown) kla12 rig a time or two.

Hey Justin,

Thanks for the clarification. I ASSumed that this was at the Destination Dix festival at Dorthea Dix Park. But looking at it again, I took this screenshot at 4:44pm and they were advertising a 5pm show, which leads me to ASSume this picture was from a previous show, which makes sense that it was taken at City Limits.

Regardless, it's a terrible deployment. Are they still using the stage that the mechanical bull used to sit on? It seems like if they wanted to hit the balcony they could just stack all 3 KLA's on top of the subs and let the top arch back. 
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Jeff Bankston on July 25, 2016, 04:42:42 pm
We've seen worse... From an old thread (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,146897.0.html)...
And the pilot told me I was dreaming ! 
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Don T. Williams on July 25, 2016, 04:49:58 pm
If you look closely, you can see what appears to be another KLA12 on the inside of the subwoofer sitting on the stage for a front fill (with a very narrow dispersion).   You would think that with the way the KLA 12's lock together there would be some way to "array them" horizontally or vertically so that would not have so much interference and comb filtering.

It could be worse, but it would take some effort!

Don
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Justin Perrachon on July 25, 2016, 04:56:11 pm
Hey Justin,

Thanks for the clarification. I ASSumed that this was at the Destination Dix festival at Dorthea Dix Park. But looking at it again, I took this screenshot at 4:44pm and they were advertising a 5pm show, which leads me to ASSume this picture was from a previous show, which makes sense that it was taken at City Limits.

Regardless, it's a terrible deployment. Are they still using the stage that the mechanical bull used to sit on? It seems like if they wanted to hit the balcony they could just stack all 3 KLA's on top of the subs and let the top arch back.
The mechanical bull is still there! Obviously they strike it for show dates.

I agree that a vertical stack of three would be a better deployment plan. Maybe something like this would be beneficial as well: https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Eprosoundweb%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D140748%2E0&share_tid=140748&share_fid=32177&share_type=t
Custom QSC KLA Angle Bump........the days of building custom are back.

Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Keith Broughton on July 25, 2016, 06:04:08 pm
The mechanical bull is still there! Obviously they strike it for show dates.

I agree that a vertical stack of three would be a better deployment plan. Maybe something like this would be beneficial as well: https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Eprosoundweb%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D140748%2E0&share_tid=140748&share_fid=32177&share_type=t
Custom QSC KLA Angle Bump........the days of building custom are back.
Just to be the Devils Advocate...
A vertical stck of 3 would not put as much horn across the audience as the horizontal array.
I have to say, other than the top box, I'm not seeing a real problem with the horizontal deployment.
After all, they are basically point source boxes that can be bolted together and not a "real" line array.
Title: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Michael Gorecki on July 25, 2016, 06:43:22 pm
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/9f60b0cfe455cdaf08a9ae729faa0458.png) saw this on the interwebs the other day.


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Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on July 25, 2016, 06:47:48 pm
Just got my new car stereo installed -putting some old PA speakers to good use.

Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on July 25, 2016, 07:24:30 pm
Just to be the Devils Advocate...
<snip>
.....After all, they are basically point source boxes that can be bolted together and not a "real" line array.

To join the devil's advocacy, and take it a step further for freedom of whatever lol....
.....IMO, ALL line array boxes, even including "adaptive" stuff like Anya, MLA, etc...
....are just point source boxes arrayed together....

...and just because various pass-band drivers get close enough, and hangs long enough, they get to be called line arrays....
...and with processing they also get to be called adaptive  :) :)

Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Scott Carneval on July 25, 2016, 08:01:20 pm
Just to be the Devils Advocate...
A vertical stck of 3 would not put as much horn across the audience as the horizontal array.
I have to say, other than the top box, I'm not seeing a real problem with the horizontal deployment.
After all, they are basically point source boxes that can be bolted together and not a "real" line array.

I think we're all in agreement that, other than being a bit odd, a sideways array of 3 or even 4 boxes would work about as fine as can be expected out of a KLA array. It's the rogue box on top that makes this a nightmare.

Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Scott Carneval on July 25, 2016, 08:02:15 pm
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/9f60b0cfe455cdaf08a9ae729faa0458.png) saw this on the interwebs the other day.


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See I actually like what they did here. They built a cage under the array to keep the punters out when it collapses  ;D
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Scott Carneval on July 25, 2016, 08:03:57 pm
Just got my new car stereo installed -putting some old PA speakers to good use.

So THIS is what you did with your old generator now that you upgraded to the inverters, huh?

If you just tow a landscape trailer behind it you'll have a portable 'stage' to go with your rolling PA
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on July 25, 2016, 09:48:44 pm
So THIS is what you did with your old generator now that you upgraded to the inverters, huh?

If you just tow a landscape trailer behind it you'll have a portable 'stage' to go with your rolling PA

How did you know that was exactly what I had in mind Scott?..
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Jeff Bankston on July 25, 2016, 09:58:18 pm
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/9f60b0cfe455cdaf08a9ae729faa0458.png) saw this on the interwebs the other day.


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what kind of stupid scaffolding is that ?!!!! These horizontal pipes are probably cussing what some big cuss words. Yeah that would be a bad scene when they finally give way. there ought to be mandentory inspections of shtuff like that.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Robert Lunceford on July 25, 2016, 10:07:06 pm
Stumbled upon this on Instagram. Fortunately I wasn't at the show to enjoy this in person.

This appears to be 3x QSC KLA12 ratchet strapped to possibly JBL PRX718 subs. I honestly don't think I've ever seen a worse deployment.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/940515c655cb0e7996e8f5a3155700aa.png)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's possible that the two KLA cabinets on the bottom were not being used, except to get the top speaker up higher. Whatever the deployment actually was, it would appear the person who set them up has no concept of the speaker's dispersion.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Eddie Ybarra on July 25, 2016, 10:17:54 pm
this doesn't seem like a bad idea,anyone know what kind RCF cabinets these are?
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 26, 2016, 01:20:59 am
this doesn't seem like a bad idea,anyone know what kind RCF cabinets these are?

With a good set of lifts right next to them.  Amazing.

BTW it's not a bad idea if you don't want them to work right.

I became a believer when I finally was able to get an average set of speakers up 14'.   Covered the area very evenly and sounded significantly better (vocal clarity, flat response etc.) than a much better set of speakers stacked.

Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 26, 2016, 03:33:20 am
this doesn't seem like a bad idea,anyone know what kind RCF cabinets these are?

I wonder what happened to break out the handles on the top 3 boxes...

They don't look like any current RCF models, at least taking a quick look at RCF's site.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Keith Broughton on July 26, 2016, 07:43:52 am
With a good set of lifts right next to them.  Amazing.

BTW it's not a bad idea if you don't want them to work right.

I became a believer when I finally was able to get an average set of speakers up 14'.   Covered the area very evenly and sounded significantly better (vocal clarity, flat response etc.) than a much better set of speakers stacked.
In the end, the punters will have a good time and not even care about the poor deployment of these speakers. :(
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: David Morison on July 26, 2016, 08:21:52 am
How not to deploy any thing:

(http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=142310.0;attach=6999;image)
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Josh Millward on July 26, 2016, 09:24:20 am
I became a believer when I finally was able to get an average set of speakers up 14'.   Covered the area very evenly and sounded significantly better (vocal clarity, flat response etc.) than a much better set of speakers stacked.

Yes, it is amazing how much a bit of height can help!
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Nathan Riddle on July 26, 2016, 09:50:43 am
I think we're all in agreement that, other than being a bit odd, a sideways array of 3 or even 4 boxes would work about as fine as can be expected out of a KLA array. It's the rogue box on top that makes this a nightmare.

To add to the devils advocate and agreeing with Keith Broughton, if there was a balcony that needed to get hit by the top kla why wouldn't crossing over at a higher frequency (like 1/2kHz?) so it's more like 18x18* spread. I know the waveguide on the hf should be more like 18x90* even at higher freq, but I seriously doubt the kla don't start beam at higher frequencies.

Even still, I think I would have just done the sideways array and hope [test, measure, listen...] that the 90* splay hits the balcony. Or do what Justin Perrachon suggested with the 2x on sticks with 2x as front fills...
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Keith Broughton on July 26, 2016, 09:53:41 am
How not to deploy any thing:

(http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=142310.0;attach=6999;image)
You win!  ;D
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Brian Bolly on July 26, 2016, 10:27:51 am
It's Deep South.  From what I understand that's par for the course


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Interesting.  Seems they made it all the way up to my neck of the woods for a festival earlier this month.  That explains the pile of QSC KW181 subs for a national artist.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 26, 2016, 12:21:06 pm
Interesting.  Seems they made it all the way up to my neck of the woods for a festival earlier this month.  That explains the pile of QSC KW181 subs for a national artist.

And if they're making it to Maryland it says just how low their price is.  I wonder what shortcuts on staffing, equipment and safety it takes to work that cheap.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: kel mcguire on July 26, 2016, 12:49:14 pm
How not to deploy any thing:

(http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=142310.0;attach=6999;image)

so, you like my rig, huh! How about my stage, made it myself with particle board
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Andrew Henderson on July 26, 2016, 01:09:54 pm
I don't know the band or the sound company from this scenario, but it wouldn't be that bad if they were subbing vocal inputs to the top box and band inputs to the bottom vertical boxes, or some other dual PA scenario. It's probably too much to assume that though. The "backbend" VRX setup from the older thread is hilarious! Maybe the audience is in a hot air balloon...
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Eddie Ybarra on July 26, 2016, 01:39:39 pm
I wonder what happened to break out the handles on the top 3 boxes...

They don't look like any current RCF models, at least taking a quick look at RCF's site.
On the back it says "LA12" or something like that and made in China
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 26, 2016, 01:55:21 pm
On the back it says "LA12" or something like that and made in China

I suspect they're phonies, then.  I don't think RCF makes anything (let alone complete speaker systems) in China.

A search for RCF and LA12 gets no hits for a speaker system.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Rob Spence on July 26, 2016, 02:22:16 pm
I wonder what happened to break out the handles on the top 3 boxes...

They don't look like any current RCF models, at least taking a quick look at RCF's site.

Maybe they were hanging them by the handles cause they didn't buy the rigging?

Gee, adding a 4' section of truss to each end would have let them fly them right.


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Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 26, 2016, 09:06:26 pm
I wonder what happened to break out the handles on the top 3 boxes...

They don't look like any current RCF models, at least taking a quick look at RCF's site.

Probably broke when being hung by the handles.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Stephen Kirby on July 26, 2016, 09:13:49 pm
Maybe they were hanging them by the handles cause they didn't buy the rigging?

Gee, adding a 4' section of truss to each end would have let them fly them right.


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How is that truss attached to the lifts?  I see a long spanset draped over the top but not secured to the lift forks in any apparent way.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 26, 2016, 09:28:06 pm
Probably broke when being hung by the handles.

You mean instead of a $900 fly bracket I could have gotten a ratchet strap at Harbor Freight.

Damn Mike Pyle upsells.

Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Stephen Kirby on July 26, 2016, 09:43:32 pm
How not to deploy any thing:

(http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=142310.0;attach=6999;image)
It says right there on the advert, M10 fly points!   ::)
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Nathan Riddle on July 27, 2016, 09:55:46 am
It looks like they are using lighting safety cables to array the bottom two cabinets. Not exactly designed to be rigging worthy.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Samuel Rees on July 27, 2016, 11:28:17 am
It looks like they are using lighting safety cables to array the bottom two cabinets. Not exactly designed to be rigging worthy.

I saw an 'array' like that set up on a portable stage on the national mall with twice as many boxes earlier this year. I nearly stopped my car in the street.
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Lance Hallmark on July 27, 2016, 01:27:16 pm
I suspect they're phonies, then.  I don't think RCF makes anything (let alone complete speaker systems) in China.

A search for RCF and LA12 gets no hits for a speaker system.

The new Evox line has Made in China stickers on them now, the first run were made in Italy.
http://rcf.media-display.it/albums/album-401/lg/_MG_3138_1600.jpg
Title: Re: Here's how NOT to deploy your 'line array'
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 27, 2016, 07:38:50 pm
The new Evox line has Made in China stickers on them now, the first run were made in Italy.
http://rcf.media-display.it/albums/album-401/lg/_MG_3138_1600.jpg

I guess it had to happen sooner or later.