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 1 
 on: Today at 01:16:56 PM 
Started by David Junius - Last post by Tim McCulloch
I'm still at the lower end of this industry, so maybe I'm not the best to give a response.  I mix to LR and am not doing anything fancy with buses.

I think the pro 2 is a nice board.  A guy I work for has a couple and I've worked with them enough to have opinions.

This spring I considered buying one along with a dl251.

However, I bought a m32r this year for some gigs.  Ironically, it has forced me to work more with DCAs just because the board is laid out to work that way.

The reason I did this was thinking about how many times I've moved the pro 2.  My m32r is in a pelican, and the two dl16 I have are each in smaller racks (one has an m32c).

This arrangement makes it so that I can still do a show and put what I need in my pickup truck even if I am bringing a trailer to more of the events I do.

I can probably get the rack for the pro2 up a ramp into a van by myself.  I've moved x32s in smaller ata cases by myself, but my buddy's m32 is in a case with a doghouse and is tough to get up a ramp into a van without two folks.  I can't recall trying to move the pro2 in its case up a ramp into a van, but my sense is that it's a two person job.

And I don't own a box truck with a lift gate.

I know I can get a tilt up stand so I could put a large mixer up more or less by myself, but usually when we are doing shows where the pro2 is at the front of house there are a bunch of hands around anyhow.  I am also aware that there are products like the sd11 that are small and powerful- I'm not sure if that is really a good example of the "middle ground" though.  I suppose that if I keep going in this direction, I will eventually need to hire folks to help me (and that is a whole other set of logistics).

All that is to say, looking at the logistics might be a place for answers about why/where folks switch over to more complicated or nuanced mixing setups.

I have avoided setting up stuff like bus compression because I am almost always doing one-off setups on boards I don't own for bands I have never met on stages where there is a lot of change over.  These kinds of setups seem like one place where I could easily mess something up.

But maybe that's why I'm still mostly moving boxes instead of sitting at FOH listening to the A2 sound check the bands.

If you're doing stuff by yourself because "you have to", you're undercharging for your services.  Seriously.  At least half of my orthopedic and muscular issues are a result of working solo 35 years ago.

That said, I looked at the Kerrville '24 line up and saw several old friends on the bill.  Joe "King" Carrasco is a name that goes back to nearly the beginning of my mixing career.  Ray Wiley Hubbard, Brave Combo, Still on the Hill are all "old friends".  Let me know if you need an FOH/system guy.  Right now I've got some open spots in my calendar.

 2 
 on: Today at 01:04:10 PM 
Started by David Junius - Last post by Tim McCulloch
Will do on the review, I heard a band using them a couple years back and couldn’t believe all that low end was coming out of those tiny subs. So since I wanted something a little more portable, I went with those. I started with 2, and I’ll have to see if I need more. The last several years my shows have scaled back in audience/room size. The only thing I can see that I would have liked is the amp panel to have an output/ thru XLR to daisy chain more subs together.

I never thought about the Midas pro 2. Haven’t seen one in the wild locally, so kinda erased that option out of my head. I think that’s the middle ground I was referring, and I see the wing kinda follows that same mentality. Both are just mix surfaces, the work is all done in the stagebox. So there’s a bunch of busses on the console(physical or virtual) but the I/O is based on the stagebox. I’ll have to definitely check into this option as it might be what I had in mind without spending huge amounts of money. Thanks

I would not buy a Midas Pro 2.  In fact I wouldn't buy any Midas Pro series mixer other than the Pro X.

 3 
 on: Today at 01:03:33 PM 
Started by David Junius - Last post by JohnReeve
I'm still at the lower end of this industry, so maybe I'm not the best to give a response.  I mix to LR and am not doing anything fancy with buses.

I think the pro 2 is a nice board.  A guy I work for has a couple and I've worked with them enough to have opinions.

This spring I considered buying one along with a dl251.

However, I bought a m32r this year for some gigs.  Ironically, it has forced me to work more with DCAs just because the board is laid out to work that way.

The reason I did this was thinking about how many times I've moved the pro 2.  My m32r is in a pelican, and the two dl16 I have are each in smaller racks (one has an m32c).

This arrangement makes it so that I can still do a show and put what I need in my pickup truck even if I am bringing a trailer to more of the events I do.

I can probably get the rack for the pro2 up a ramp into a van by myself.  I've moved x32s in smaller ata cases by myself, but my buddy's m32 is in a case with a doghouse and is tough to get up a ramp into a van without two folks.  I can't recall trying to move the pro2 in its case up a ramp into a van, but my sense is that it's a two person job.

And I don't own a box truck with a lift gate.

I know I can get a tilt up stand so I could put a large mixer up more or less by myself, but usually when we are doing shows where the pro2 is at the front of house there are a bunch of hands around anyhow.  I am also aware that there are products like the sd11 that are small and powerful- I'm not sure if that is really a good example of the "middle ground" though.  I suppose that if I keep going in this direction, I will eventually need to hire folks to help me (and that is a whole other set of logistics).

All that is to say, looking at the logistics might be a place for answers about why/where folks switch over to more complicated or nuanced mixing setups.

I have avoided setting up stuff like bus compression because I am almost always doing one-off setups on boards I don't own for bands I have never met on stages where there is a lot of change over.  These kinds of setups seem like one place where I could easily mess something up.

But maybe that's why I'm still mostly moving boxes instead of sitting at FOH listening to the A2 sound check the bands.

 4 
 on: Today at 12:49:46 PM 
Started by Eileen Krause - Last post by Scott Holtzman
Thanks Scott.  Yes normally folks use headsets…. The user is an occasional special guest speaker and I was asked to honor this accommodation of “no headset”   Since this is my church I want to do my best to honor this.


Can you explain to them how poor they work?  Be better to put a cardioid on a stand in front of him. 


 5 
 on: Today at 11:52:03 AM 
Started by Eileen Krause - Last post by Riley Casey
If this is a one off you could probably find a Shure MX185 very easily for rent from a local sound vendor or AV company. Those have been an industry standard for years

 6 
 on: Today at 10:13:30 AM 
Started by Eileen Krause - Last post by Eileen Krause

Look at a DPA headset microphone they are very light.  Tape it into place with a little bit of medical tape.
Thanks Scott.  Yes normally folks use headsets…. The user is an occasional special guest speaker and I was asked to honor this accommodation of “no headset”   Since this is my church I want to do my best to honor this. 

 7 
 on: Today at 09:49:14 AM 
Started by David Junius - Last post by Scott Holtzman
Will do on the review, I heard a band using them a couple years back and couldn’t believe all that low end was coming out of those tiny subs. So since I wanted something a little more portable, I went with those. I started with 2, and I’ll have to see if I need more. The last several years my shows have scaled back in audience/room size. The only thing I can see that I would have liked is the amp panel to have an output/ thru XLR to daisy chain more subs together.

I never thought about the Midas pro 2. Haven’t seen one in the wild locally, so kinda erased that option out of my head. I think that’s the middle ground I was referring, and I see the wing kinda follows that same mentality. Both are just mix surfaces, the work is all done in the stagebox. So there’s a bunch of busses on the console(physical or virtual) but the I/O is based on the stagebox. I’ll have to definitely check into this option as it might be what I had in mind without spending huge amounts of money. Thanks


You are not going to find good pricing online.  You need a rep for this level of Midas.  Try Mike Pyle.  Reps often have demo gear they can make screaming deals on.  Our tour pack was a demo.




 8 
 on: Today at 09:38:50 AM 
Started by Carlos Lasuen - Last post by Scott Holtzman
We've released a new version of the app with internally optimized features, CSS improvements, and smaller instruments that better fit the size of the stage.

The next thing will be to create a "Favorites" section so that each user can mark their favorite items and the selection will be faster when creating a stage plot.

There are already more than 400 registered users who use RiderMaker.


Thanks!


Thank you for your hard work.  How is the text tool on drawing screen coming along? Can't it be just another object.  While it would be nice to just double click the stencil if that is not possible then just make a text object.


If you need US hosting space drop me a private message. VMware and LibVIRT virtualization available in my server farm.

 9 
 on: Today at 09:17:27 AM 
Started by Gordon Brinton - Last post by Gordon Brinton
Why Little Subs?
Right out of the gate, I want to say that I am not pushing for anyone to downsize to smaller subs. I had only purchased these boxes in an attempt to solve a problem for myself. You see, I am a one-man company and frequently load in and out myself. Most of my gear is either on wheels or can be moved with a hand truck. I do have a nice trailer with a rear door that becomes a ramp, so I usually don't need to lift much. Unfortunately, the problem begins when I have smaller gigs in the city and cannot maneuver or even park the trailer near the venue. For those gigs, I choose to take everything by pickup truck which means dead lifting all of my gear up to the tailgate. (BTW, I know that one man can flip a double 18 into a truck bed, but my truck bed isn't very big. I was trying to find a happy medium between compact portability and excellent sound quality.)

The SX210 is a passive dual 10" front loaded bass-reflex design. It has pretty darn good specs for a baby sub and comes in at a mere 44 lbs. I mean, hell's bells! Even my 105 lb wife can lift that up.

I do know that these are not necessarily intended for front main stack duty. I think they are more so marketed as smaller fill type speakers for limited spaces, but they just so happen to meet my needs as mains. (So, tough titties! I'm using them anyway.)

Are They Capable?
There must be a thousand Internet arguments over which are better, larger or smaller subs. I knew going in that smaller drivers wouldn't go as low in frequency. That didn't bother me as I mix exclusively for two very similar rock/variety cover bands. With the exception of a few rarely used keyboard patches, there isn't much on our stages that goes below 40Hz. If I recall, the open Low-E string on a bass guitar is somewhere around 42Hz. So to me, unless I am providing sound for an EDM Rave show, (which I never do,) everything below 40 is basically just unwanted rumble. Even when I use my larger subs, I often high-pass them at about 40Hz to tidy up the low end and conserve amp power. So, why pay for it if I'm not going to use it? Besides, I understand that several of these small boxes clustered together can reach lower than the published specs of a single box. That's why I purchased four of the cute little buggers. Okay, I'll admit…If I ever mix for a band that has a 5 string bass, then I may need to bring bigger subs, but until then, these meet my needs for rock bands in small to medium venues. Call me a wimp, but I think that guys who brag about how low their subs can go are just chasing specs. As Shania Twain once said, That don't impress me much.

Performance:
If you're old school, you may not realize how much smaller drivers have improved over the years. We are seeing drivers with better and better specs every few years, such as Xmax and sensitivity. The greater the Xmax, the further the speaker cone can move, resulting in bigger pressure waves. The higher the sensitivity, the less amp power it takes to reach desired levels.

When I mix a rock band, I am looking to get that sought-after "punch" out of my subs. In the heat of the night, when the kick drum punches you in the chest and the bass guitar sounds big and full, that's an experience that the audience seems to love. That is, they always move closer and face the abuse. That punch sensation comes about by moving a lot of air, very rapidly, with a lot of force. In my opinion, a cluster of smaller drivers working together has an advantage because there are more drive motors each pushing smaller and lighter cones. Think about a motor boat with 4 or 5 outboard motors on the back. Multiple propellers will clearly provide more traction than a single large motor with only one propeller. That punch in speakers is a function of transient response. In simpler terms, it's how fast a speaker can react and recover from abrupt peaks in signal level. Thus, it's not always about how many square inches the cone has, but more about how quickly the cone can be moved and how forcefully it can push the air. Smaller and lighter cones are easier to push around than heavier ones. Of course, you still need an adequate amount of cone area to reach the level of performance you desire.

The physical size of these Martin cabinets is very compact. Two of these boxes stacked are only slightly larger than a typical single 18 cabinet. An 18" speaker cone has approximately 254 square inches while, in nearly the same amount of floor space, (x4) 10" cones = 314 square inches. The advantages of double stacking these small boxes are twofold: more driving motors and more cone area. The disadvantage is that, (unless you have a big amp capable of 2 Ohms,) it takes two amp channels to power two 4 Ohm boxes. Thus, rolling in with 4 passive boxes will use up two stereo power amps. With everything else being equal, the setup with the most cone area should also be louder. (This is all my opinion, of course. I have not yet measured it.)

The Power Amps:
I am driving these little subs with two QSC GXD8 power amps, (one channel per box). Each speaker box is rated at 500 Watts Continuous and 2000 Watts Peak, and offers a 4 Ohm load. The power amp advertises 1200 Watts Continuous and 2250 Watts Peak @ 4 Ohms. In my opinion that's a fairly good match up as long as it's kept under control. I keep mine under control by using two types of limiters in my system, one is in my speaker management box, fast attack for short term peaks measured at 85 Volts (roughly 1800Watts), and one slower attack for sustained tones at 40 Volts (roughly 400Watts) in the power amp DSP. To the best of my understanding, I should be safe with those numbers.

At my typical bar gigs, I run the subs loud enough to feel them pounding in the chest at the dance floor and the amps are basically just idling. With a speaker sensitivity of 103 dB, this means that I could get them up to 120 dB with a mere 100 Watts or so of amp power and (theoretically) 130 dB with 500 Watts. …And that's only measuring one box! I think 4 of them, clustered together, can provide more level than I will need in a small to medium sized barroom, and probably smaller outdoor gigs too.

I have not yet gotten the power amps up to 1/8 power and probably never will. I did a simple test with only two subs playing music from the mixer. (I eliminated the top boxes.) During most bass notes, my SPL meter was bouncing between 118dB and 124dB at 1 meter out, (C Weighting, Fast Response). My power amp was drawing around 2 amps at the wall outlet.  I don't know how loud you guys run your subs, but again, I bought these to solve "MY" problems.

How Do They Sound?
My first show with the new Martin subs was with one of my exclusive clients, a really good variety rock cover band. This particular venue was roughly 50ft X 50ft and had maybe 150 - 200 people attending. I only used two subs for this show because the second pair on order had not yet been delivered to my home. I always cluster my subs together; sometimes center and sometimes off to one side. I always try to avoid the power alley effect. I started out going easy on the level, 90ish dB at the FOH position, (near the center of the room,) because I didn't know how well they would perform. I was quickly surprised at how efficient they were. The power amp meters were barely moving. I slowly pushed things up as the night wore on and the audience became livelier. They totally kept up with my RCF NX45a tops, albeit, I wasn't pushing the entire system all that hard. By night's end, I had the kick drum and bass guitar pumping at a pretty healthy level. You could feel the subs pounding on the dance floor. The output meters on the power amp were dancing at less than half way up to the line that indicates limiting, which happens to be my slow 40V limiter. (See Image) The meters are not labelled in dB, but I am guessing this must have been somewhere between 100 and 200 Watts if it's linear. At any rate, I had plenty of lush sounding low-end all evening long with headroom to spare. At no time did I ever see a peak light.

All notes from the bass guitar were sounding out fairly evenly. What I mean is, they didn't have one certain frequency that jumped out and annoyed everyone like the one-note horn-loaded subs I once used years ago. They were pretty even across the band. (That's what I like about front loaded speakers.) I tend to give a little EQ bump for kick drum at around 75 or 80Hz and that's right about where these subs do their best work. They do slope off below 45Hz, but again, I'm fine with that. The kick drum, floor tom, and bass guitar were all well supported and sounded fat enough (for me) down to 40Hz.

Using one Sub:
I did happen to have one gig at a super tiny bar. I mean this place was tight with no stage. The room was only big enough to hold about 60 or 80 people seated at tables and a long bar. They moved two or three tables and told the band to setup in that spot. The band was practically ass-to-elbows on top of one another. Anyway, I brought two subs to the job, but decided to leave one in the truck due to lack of floor space. Once fired up, I was totally impressed at how well a single dual 10" sub filled that room. Again, I had more low-end than I needed. At no time did I feel like I was over working that little box.

Now Using 4 Subs:
I wanted four boxes because summer is coming up and I do have a few outdoor gigs on my calendar. The second pair has finally arrived and is in the garage. I'll let you know how well they perform, but I am not worried at this point. I do have single 18" subs, but they are not that great. I am betting that 4 of the 210's will probably out perform them.

Conclusion:
Man, I am here to tell you that they really deliver. For as tiny as they are, they really kick some royal buttage. For smaller or medium bar gigs, 2 of these guys will be plenty. I've had more than enough low-end in all of the rooms I've used them in so far. They sound great, have that power punch, and have solved my truck loading problem. What more can a small operator like me ask for?

If you contact one of the dealers here on the forum, they can usually give you pricing far better than those advertised by retailers. Mike Pyle has treated me well and I am completely satisfied with my purchase. (Thanks again, Mike.)

BTW, if you are uneasy about using 10" subs, Martin Audio also offers a 12" version, (SX212) that is pretty similar in specs to that other brand 212 that everyone loves, but for about half the price.

So it seems that smaller and lighter gear that performs well is finally becoming a reality. Maybe more companies will start to offer high performance subs in this weight range.

Pros:
- Super lightweight. They only weigh 44 lbs. I can easily lift them into the pickup truck.
- Very efficient/good SPL.
- They are not perfectly flat, but then, what subs are? The natural hump in the frequency band is right where I want it, between 60 and 100Hz.
- They will play good and loud up to 150Hz, so I could conceivably use them with much smaller tops at a higher crossover point if needed.
- They trailer/truck pack nicely. When standing on end, they are the same height as my RCF NX45a tops.
- As far as size and performance goes, other than hitting those lowest notes, four of these are as good as or better than two really good 18" subs, and that's exactly what I wanted out of them.
- They were darn cheap.
 
Cons:
- Nobody makes covers for them, (to my knowledge). Having four covers custom made can get a bit pricey.
- The handles being at the rear corners make them very easy to carry. (Sweet!) However, beware! The easiest way to carry these things is to grab both handles with the grills facing downward. If someone were to set them down that way in rough stones or on an uneven surface, the grills could become scratched up or dented. I remedied this by adding more rubber feet onto one end of each cabinet. Now I can dolly them or even deploy them standing on end. I just wish that those handles were at the front corners.
- The finish. It looks great, like your typical truck bed liner coating, but it seems brittle and chips very easily. While moving them around, if you happen to tilt them wrong, it can chip up the corners or edges. I would rather pay a few dollars more for a higher quality protective finish.
- They don't offer a powered version, but that doesn't bother me. I prefer lighter weight boxes. It's the main reason I bought them.

 10 
 on: Today at 09:06:29 AM 
Started by David Junius - Last post by Kevin Maxwell


 I think that’s the middle ground I was referring, and I see the wing kinda follows that same mentality. Both are just mix surfaces, the work is all done in the stagebox. So there’s a bunch of busses on the console(physical or virtual) but the I/O is based on the stagebox. I’ll have to definitely check into this option as it might be what I had in mind without spending huge amounts of money. Thanks

On the WING the preamps are in the stage boxes and there is nothing more than that in the stage boxes. There are some systems where the Stage box is actually the mixer and the Mix surface is just a remote controller of the Stage box But that is not how the WING works, all of the processing is in the WING surface itself. It just doesn't have a lot of built in preamps in the surface. And that is the way I like it, why have a lot of preamps in the surface when all of my inputs (except for a very few) are on stage into a digital stage box.

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