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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Justin Bartlett on August 14, 2013, 12:20:52 PM
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The primary artist I work with (as TM/FOH) plays a moderate number of outdoor summer shows which use typical temporary stage/roof structures, but his contract rider does not currently include requirements for the construction of those roofs. After the most recent collapse, which was a roof for a show that included an artist I've worked with in the past, I think it's time that we add such language, and artist management agrees.
I want to do two things: first, I want to avoid getting into situations where a roof is cobbled together out of Genie construction lifts and truck straps. Second, if the promoter provides such a "roof" despite the rider language, I want it to be clear that we have the right to refuse to play under such a roof and still receive full pay.
So I'm looking for suggestions for language and requirements for addition to our rider. Any thoughts?
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The primary artist I work with (as TM/FOH) plays a moderate number of outdoor summer shows which use typical temporary stage/roof structures, but his contract rider does not currently include requirements for the construction of those roofs. After the most recent collapse, which was a roof for a show that included an artist I've worked with in the past, I think it's time that we add such language, and artist management agrees.
I want to do two things: first, I want to avoid getting into situations where a roof is cobbled together out of Genie construction lifts and truck straps. Second, if the promoter provides such a "roof" despite the rider language, I want it to be clear that we have the right to refuse to play under such a roof and still receive full pay.
So I'm looking for suggestions for language and requirements for addition to our rider. Any thoughts?
Hello,
Include: A Roof system Designed, and Manufactured by an entity that provides professional Roof Structures to the entertainment/event Industry. This Roof System should include engineered drawings and specifications clearly tested and approved by Licensed Professional Engineers. All Load data, Wind speed tolerances, and Construction data is to be provided, on site, for inspection at ANYONE'S request. The Roof System's design and construction should be approved by the Manufacturer's Insurance Carrier, and the Roof System Contractor's Insurance Carrier. The Roof System owner/Contractor shall assemble the structure in accordance with the Manufacturer's specifications. An approved Roof System Technician will remain on premises and be available for any questions during the times of the Roof System's use.
ABCD type Fire extinguishers shall be provided on each side of the stage. The on-site Roof System Technician will monitor the National Weather service for the event of storms or winds approaching, and will notify all Acts/Performers and their Management of approaching hazardous weather immediately. The on-site Technician, and/or ______________________ will be the final judge as to whether a serious condition whether construction practices or hazardous weather are eminent . If _____________________ or it's Management determines that it will not take the stage to perform due to possible hazardous weather or improper Roof Conditions, the act will be paid IN FULL as per the performance agreement.
Hammer
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Hello,
Include: A Roof system Designed, and Manufactured by an entity that provides professional Roof Structures to the entertainment/event Industry. This Roof System should include engineered drawings and specifications clearly tested and approved by Licensed Professional Engineers. All Load data, Wind speed tolerances, and Construction data is to be provided, on site, for inspection at ANYONE'S request. The Roof System's design and construction should be approved by the Manufacturer's Insurance Carrier, and the Roof System Contractor's Insurance Carrier. The Roof System owner/Contractor shall assemble the structure in accordance with the Manufacturer's specifications. An approved Roof System Technician will remain on premises and be available for any questions during the times of the Roof System's use.
Hammer
To go about ten steps further, have the artists attorney write the language for you.
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To go about ten steps further, have the artists attorney write the language for you.
I agree... but, the Attorney must KNOW what issues to cover in any agreement. I under stand the probable 10th step, but, what are the other 9 steps that are missing ?
Hammer
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Thanks, guys. I think I'll take Charlie's language with a bit of my own and send it to management with a recommendation that they have our attorney review it before inclusion in the rider.
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The primary artist I work with (as TM/FOH) plays a moderate number of outdoor summer shows which use typical temporary stage/roof structures, but his contract rider does not currently include requirements for the construction of those roofs. After the most recent collapse, which was a roof for a show that included an artist I've worked with in the past, I think it's time that we add such language, and artist management agrees.
I want to do two things: first, I want to avoid getting into situations where a roof is cobbled together out of Genie construction lifts and truck straps. Second, if the promoter provides such a "roof" despite the rider language, I want it to be clear that we have the right to refuse to play under such a roof and still receive full pay.
So I'm looking for suggestions for language and requirements for addition to our rider. Any thoughts?
Well, you could do it one step at a time. It's easy enough to include "no roofs supported by portable lifts" language for starters.
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Well, you could do it one step at a time. It's easy enough to include "no roofs supported by portable lifts" language for starters.
Hello.. I think it's easier to verbalize what someone would accept, than, to list all of the things that someone wouldn't accept. But ??? ;)
Hammer
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Hello.. I think it's easier to verbalize what someone would accept, than, to list all of the things that someone wouldn't accept. But ??? ;)
Hammer
Yes, this is very important. The wording that requires drawings and load ratings would be enough to eliminate most dangerous setups right from the get go. I highly doubt anyone using genie lifts and truck straps would have gone through any effort to get the system documented.
I would actually request that the documentation for the roof system be provided in advance of the show a specific number of days in advance. That would prevent the confrontation once you get there and they didn't bother to read that part of the rider.
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I want to do two things: first, I want to avoid getting into situations where a roof is cobbled together out of Genie construction lifts and truck straps. Second, if the promoter provides such a "roof" despite the rider language, I want it to be clear that we have the right to refuse to play under such a roof and still receive full pay.
So I'm looking for suggestions for language and requirements for addition to our rider. Any thoughts?
Having been on a crew that was visiting an outdoor stage & watching the entire structure fail with my own eyes, I'll point out a few things that may help.
1. A professionally made structure that isn't set up correctly can fail.
2. A professionally made structure setup correctly but overloaded can fail.
3. A professionally made structure setup correctly but hit with the right storm can fail if left in the air
etc...
Where do you draw the line besides something as simple as: "The ARTIST reserves the right to cancel the performance & settle in full if the ARTISTS crew brings up concerns about the staging structure, asks questions & there is not an acceptable response or correction."
At the end of the day regarding the stage I witnessed fall, everyone got sued (not me but the promoter, stage provider, municipality that was hosting the event & was supposed to have the stage inspected, etc...)
How does one truly know when something is done poorly? The only way to know is to spend the time advancing the show in that regard & requesting proof of compliance by the provider (make & model of stage, loads, track record, insurance, etc...) & then to have a crew that knows what to look for.
In the case of the stage I saw fall, the stage provider had filled some trash bags with rocks as counter ballast & had only guy wired it down in 1 direction. The stakes in the ground were probably only 2' long & pulled right out. There may of been 50# of rocks in a few bags. There were still weld marks on the structure which had been put together in a rush to ship it in from 1/2 way across the US. Glaring warning signs were there.
If I'd put 1 ounce of energy into walking the stage rig, my buddy might walk without a cane. Instead I was just getting my monitor rig ready & such. Who knew you needed to worry about the stage as a sound person???
At the end of the day, a good storm that is ignored by the promoter & a currently performing artist that doesn't know better can have an accident with a well setup stage that is left flown. There is a point at which the roof should be lowered at the area cleared to protect life & limb & the rest is unimportant.
Unfortunately people are more greedy than cautious. I would keep it simple regarding legal language & realize that at the end of the day, it's up to you to watch out for your people & your audience. Pay or no pay.
You might put some clause in the contract about the ARTIST being completely clear of liability if there is an staging accident since the ARTIST will obviously not be providing the stage & will not have set it up themselves.
But everyone gets sued...
Best regards,
ra byn (robin)
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I would be careful about wording that puts too much liability on you. Requiring engineering, insurance and other documents is good. Saying you can walk if you don't think it's safe opens you up a bit more to legal responsibility if it fails and you didn't speak up.
A lawyer may have a better form of legal wording to help with that. In the end every one gets sued. Just don't put a bigger target up than you have to.
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Saying you can walk if you don't think it's safe opens you up a bit more to legal responsibility if it fails and you didn't speak up.
A lawyer may have a better form of legal wording to help with that. In the end every one gets sued. Just don't put a bigger target up than you have to.
Hello,
Not necessarily. A true and just Court would understand that if your contract required the fulfillment of the Tech Rider items listed in my first post, that you or no one on your Road crew would be experts in any of the Engineering Sciences, nor have the time to certify that the Stage Roof is built to the required standard outlined, and, that you, having made the requests, have done everything in your power to see that the Stage Roof is safe per your Show's needs.
Some areas (Countries/States/Provinces/Counties/Cities) require structures, even temporary structures, to be inspected by a Building Official or Engineer prior to use.
The truth...in the US, there is always some risk, even astronomically small risks to anything. Anyone can file a law suit, whether the judge believes the suit has merit is another question altogether. Negligence or Malice must be apparent. The Common Law states that if a consumer of an item has exercised caution, used due diligence, and without malice, and an unforeseen incident occurs, they are guilty of nothing.
Hammer
Hammer
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Hello,
Not necessarily. A true and just Court would understand
Unfortunately we have the legal system and not the justice system. While intent and diligence should count, they don't always protect you. That's what the lawyers are for.
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Hello.. I think it's easier to verbalize what someone would accept, than, to list all of the things that someone wouldn't accept. But ??? ;)
Hammer
But ... :-)
One sentence would disqualify temporary roof structures supported by portable crank ups. Why not add it to a rider? One look when you arrive and you know, no inspections required.
It's really clear, much like "no Brand X" loudspeakers.
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So if crank ups are not acceptable, would you refuse to play under this roof?...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDykKz--E9c
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So if crank ups are not acceptable, would you refuse to play under this roof?...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDykKz--E9c
I can't tell much from that video, but the roof structure is not supported by Genie lifts or similar.
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I can't tell much from that video, but the roof structure is not supported by Genie lifts or similar.
That is correct but it is cranked up at each corner and is portable. I'm not trying to be a wise ass. I know very little about safe rigging or proper practices for temporary structures. Im in the camp that would love to have something definitive to put in my riders.
I have done the gig in the video twice and there was nothing that raised a red flag for me.
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Unfortunately we have the legal system and not the justice system. While intent and diligence should count, they don't always protect you. That's what the lawyers are for.
Lawyers cannot protect you from a Lawsuit being filed. They CAN minimize the damage in certain instances... and that is by CLEARLY identifying for the Court that as a TM, PM, Crew member, or the Act/Group has done everything within their scope of expertise, to assure that the equipment and staging is safely designed, built and used as intended.
While there have been Acts and their Management that have been named in Lawsuits in regards to staging incidents that have resulted in injuries or deaths of Crew members or attendees... Please name one Act that was found guilty, that DID NOT directly contribute to the incident by negligence or malice.
Hammer
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That is correct but it is cranked up at each corner and is portable. I'm not trying to be a wise ass. I know very little about safe rigging or proper practices for temporary structures. Im in the camp that would love to have something definitive to put in my riders.
I have done the gig in the video twice and there was nothing that raised a red flag for me.
The concern is using things like Genie lifts, outdoors, and the Genie lifts are often specifically stated for indoor use only. Even more interesting... there's some interesting discussion going on over here (http://"http://www.jimonlight.com/") about this recent (Shelby) failure, and they're looking closely at the pictures on the contractor's website, and have determined that they have been using contractor material lifts, not the SuperTower entertainment lifts.
The stage shown in the YouTube clip indicates that the roof is (most likely) being supported by ground support bases, appropriate square trussing with sleeves and chain hoists to raise it up, and guy wires to secure it. I believe that (when properly configured and deployed, I am not a rigger, consult your local professional) there's less of a chance of those going over as they are more suited to this purpose.
-Ray
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So if crank ups are not acceptable, would you refuse to play under this roof?...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDykKz--E9c
That roof is certainly much better than the same sized roof would be supported with Genie lifts. It is hard to see how the towers are anchored, but it looks like they are just sitting on the temporary wood deck. This makes it equivalent to a giant pop up tent.
The climbing truss is good, but there is no connection between the towers on the ground level to stabilize the system, nor is there any cross bracing. The fact that it is manual cranks that lift rather than motors it is less important from a safety point of view than the fact that the system as a whole is not connected or braced.
If individual climbing towers are used there should be a large outrigger base to keep it stabile. If no outriggers are used the 4 towers should be connected by a truss frame box at the base as well as at the roof.
Mac (again, not a rigger)
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So would any of you refuse to play under the roof in the video? The series has hosted Brian Wilson, Willie Nelson, and a bunch of other acts of that caliber just this year.
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So would any of you refuse to play under the roof in the video? The series has hosted Brian Wilson, Willie Nelson, and a bunch of other acts of that caliber just this year.
Hello,
It's hard for me to give a yes/no answer because of the video's quality not revealing more detail, and that I wasn't on the scene. But, from what I could see it looked ok. There were diagonal guys on the legs of the roof. It appears as though the legs may have been anchored beneath the stage floor...but???
If the legs were bolted beneath the stage, the roof truss wasn't overloaded with hung gear, and there was no immediate threat of storm... I'd say ..hit the stage.
Hammer
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Hello,
It's hard for me to give a yes/no answer because of the video's quality not revealing more detail, and that I wasn't on the scene. But, from what I could see it looked ok. There were diagonal guys on the legs of the roof. It appears as though the legs may have been anchored beneath the stage floor...but???
If the legs were bolted beneath the stage, the roof truss wasn't overloaded with hung gear, and there was no immediate threat of storm... I'd say ..hit the stage.
Hammer
I have done that gig and it was fine (other than the pita load in). There is a very minimal lighting rig so not much load on the roof other than the structure itself and any wind. It is guyed and from what i remember the tower bases are anchored to the stage. You are in a very small amphitheater type bowl that is largely sheltered by the surrounding terrain.
Everyone on the touring crew I was with has been at this a long time and all have survived staging accidents so we always have a look around at how the stage and roof are rigged.