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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Lighting Forum => Topic started by: Callan Browne on October 07, 2018, 06:37:54 AM
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Thinking out loud here - I might upgrade my lights over our Australia Summer.
At the moment, I'm running a total of 12 LED pars lights's behind our band, as 3 groups of 4.
I've also got 2 RGBA I mount on FOH to light up the faces of the lead singer(s).
Of the 12 LED's, they consist of:
4 X Chauvet T12 (https://www.chauvetdj.com/products/slimpar-t12-usb/)'s (12X3W each - 3,801 lux @ 2 m) on a K&M stand that goes to about 3 meters (no crank)
2 X Chautet 4bar LT (https://www.chauvetdj.com/products/4bar-lt-usb/) (3X9W each - 2,053 lux @ 2 m), which is 4 LED's integrated to a single bar. The stand goes to about 2 meters or so.
Here's a pic from last weekend:
(https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43151783_10215422609912444_6841554427724169216_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&oh=6a52b4a8710a089a567e0f52e5b0ddc5&oe=5C6166A6)
And one from earlier in the year:
(https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30516304_968070813348687_6323266142701879296_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&oh=32a902ca40a03c3858a88dcc840e3771&oe=5C4E5A6F)
Haze provided by an Antari Z350.
The 'need':
So the 4bar LT's are great, simple, lightweight, quick to setup, etc, but I just don't find them bright or the stands to go high enough.
if you see the second photo above, they are at the maximum height, sitting on the ground beside the stage.
They are a small stand, just bigger than a mic stand in thickness.
I often use just 1 when playing acoustic, but thinking of selling the other and putting $ towards another K&M stand with 4 individual LED pars.
I had a quick look over at the Chauvet page for options, and saw the Slimpar Pro Q (https://www.chauvetdj.com/products/slimpar-pro-q-usb/)(12X6W - 5,690 lux @ 2 m), for around about AUD$300 each. (exTax)
I was thinking of grabbing 4, and then having each of my K&M stands having 2 of my T12's and 2 ProQ's each, so in total going from 12 to 8 individual fixtures, but with an overall increase in output.
I'm not tied to these, just looked at them as an option as being a small level up from my existing lights.
Another option might be adding something like the Kinta FX (https://www.chauvetdj.com/products/kinta-fx/), 1 or even 2 per side?
Any thoughts on this?
I don't have means to transport truss at this point, nor enough gigs to invest in a new method of transport.
Movers would also be nice, but for now I'm OK with fixed fixtures.
As an aside, I'm thinking of doubling up the hotbox's that live on my FOH too.
It's all run by DMXIS.
thanks for reading - what would you do?
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Hi Callan, here are a few things to think about:
The 'need':
So the 4bar LT's are great, simple, lightweight, quick to setup, etc, but I just don't find them bright or the stands to go high enough.
if you see the second photo above, they are at the maximum height, sitting on the ground beside the stage.
They are a small stand, just bigger than a mic stand in thickness.
Getting taller stands is a purchase that I think you'll really appreciate. I still use my decade old Global Truss ST-132s, but if I bought again today I'd go for a Duratruss offering which uses a geared lifting mechanism over a cable and winch. Ultimate Support also makes some very nice products. I've never used K&M myself but know they're also a strong contender. Of course the larger you go the heavier they get (which is a good thing), so just make sure you don't buy something too big to manage. While I can't comment from direct experience, I'm sure there's a way to secure the 4-Bar onto a larger stand or truss kit if that's the route you go.
I don't have means to transport truss at this point, nor enough gigs to invest in a new method of transport.
There are a few products on the market that might be worth a look here such as the Global Truss Glow Totems (http://globaltruss.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ItemNumber=599&MainId=20&Category=104). The advantage is that these break down flat for easier transport than box truss, but conversely don't have the strength of box truss. They require assembly on site and are a fixed height. I'd still vote for a more capable tripod over this from a purely efficiency standpoint, but if it's a look that you desire it's definitely doable.
I had a quick look over at the Chauvet page for options, and saw the Slimpar Pro Q (https://www.chauvetdj.com/products/slimpar-pro-q-usb/)(12X6W - 5,690 lux @ 2 m), for around about AUD$300 each. (exTax)
Chauvet SlimPar Pros are still my favorite "budget" series of LED fixtures. Beyond that, something like the Elation SevenPar or ETC Colorsource Par is where I'd be looking, albeit at a much higher pricepoint. They offer far superior color mixing/rendering and dimming, but you'd have to ask yourself if you really need that and can justify paying for it.
Adding moving lights or effect lights can help to add movement to your show, which is never a bad thing. At the same time, I'd bucket that into the same discussion regarding fixture deployment. The theatrical lighting designer in me is saying to first sort out your front fill. You need to pull a few fixtures further forward to fill out your talent a little better. At the same time, the logistics expert in me is questioning how to do that without creating a safety hazard when putting truss or tripods further out into the audience area. Either way, once you find a solution to that (or not) it might open up some opportunities or positions for effect lights to be used. You already have plenty going on behind your band, so if it were me I'd try to multipurpose your front fill positions for use with movers or effect lights. Just my two cents of course. Good luck!
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The SlimParPro Q fixtures are the best "bang for buck" I've found. I don't know about Aus, but in the US the pricing is based on quantity.
The 4-bar fixtures are quite weak.
It might make sense to sell all the fixtures you have to get matching, higher quantity SlimParPro Q's.
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Thanks Caleb and Jeff, some good things to consider there.
Good to see that the Pro Q's are somewhat liked on here and I didn't pick the Mackie thump of the lighting world (even if maybe I have them already)
"far superior color mixing/rendering and dimming"
This is not really a priority for me - but good to know what I might get by spending more.
Here's a pic I found from the same venue as my top pic, to give you an idea how close the stage is to the crowd.
(https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43296409_2341179282590247_3343417274391330816_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&oh=2468f0a5c06ff6446d4f628564d8bea7&oe=5C491BFD)
As you can see, there is nearly 0 room between the stage and the crowd, so getting front lighting out further could be a real challenge. The other side of the room has no room either, so I can't 'throw' the light from the back of the room. (not that I have suitable fixtures anyway)
I really wouldn't want to put tripods out front, this group have decided it was OK (This was a sunday afternoon. We're normally there Saturday nights which get quite full - I use subs below the FOH, so less of a trip hazard.
But I'll take this advice on board - more lights on the talent. I agree, and my plan was to double up the HotBox's I have on FOH and try to light up a wider area. Hopefully this works well enough, without having to take up my floor space. Maybe I can also get the foh more in front of the stage to increase the angle.
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I'm going to install 24 of these on a large stage in the next week. I bought one to demo, and they seem to be pretty cost-effective. I'll post my results after they are up.
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=612749&gclid=CjwKCAjwi6TYBRAYEiwAOeH7GVE1DOCa2NsnNDGG-2Yr2bdOl0267kDsG-PWCmH6haFtgkkaD-0WHBoCvIkQAvD_BwE
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Thanks Caleb and Jeff, some good things to consider there.
Good to see that the Pro Q's are somewhat liked on here and I didn't pick the Mackie thump of the lighting world (even if maybe I have them already)
No worries! I consider the SlimPar Pro Series to be one of the better bang to buck offerings out there right now and the bottom end of what's acceptable for professional use, though mileage will vary on what's considered "professional use". Other members here have had good luck with lesser units, and there are a number of threads here that compare the Chinese no-name units to budget name brand.
Here's a pic I found from the same venue as my top pic, to give you an idea how close the stage is to the crowd.
...
As you can see, there is nearly 0 room between the stage and the crowd, so getting front lighting out further could be a real challenge. The other side of the room has no room either, so I can't 'throw' the light from the back of the room. (not that I have suitable fixtures anyway)
That's a good picture to show the space you're working with. I agree with everything you say about not wanted to put tripods out in the audience area. Very tight spaces like this can be difficult. While I'm usually not a fan of mounting lights to speakers, this case could be an exception. Since real estate is such a premium here doing so will save you a tripod footprint, which might be a big deal. You might also want to consider adding a few very wide angle fixtures here such as the ADJ COB Cannon Wash to help fill in the gaps. It's not a terribly bright fixture, but you don't need that here. Also, pulling your act upstage (even just a few feet) might make a world of difference.
Now seeing a better picture I'd say moving lights would be a complete waste here. The venue is just too small for them to really be effective, and there's nowhere for them to shoot without blinding your audience. If it were me I'd focus on the walls behind you and the ceiling. Depending on the look you wish to achieve, maybe try some creative uplighting, pixel bars (such as a few Blizzard Pixellicious on sticks), or some various effects aimed on the ceiling. Lots of options to consider should you go that route, and since they'd live either behind or to the sides of you they won't crowd the audience too much. Hope this helps!
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We have a couple dozen of these from parts express that have been workhorses for us for going on three years now: https://www.parts-express.com/talent-bl63-10-led-baby-bar-dmx-rgb-mini-linear-up-light-fixture--244-514 (https://www.parts-express.com/talent-bl63-10-led-baby-bar-dmx-rgb-mini-linear-up-light-fixture--244-514)
We primarily use them for uplighting walls which I think would help liven up some of your spaces until you can get into movers. Great intensity, lightweight and robust. They also work well on truss/stands and throw out a surprising amount of light. We've only ever had one go bad and PE let us keep it and sent a new one the same day. The only downside is they use IEC for in and out, so you'd need some male/female IEC cables if you wanted to daisy chain them with other fixtures.
I attached a pic of what 10 of them do to a wall just over 90' away, that's full tilt and we normally keep them around 70% to keep from dazzling crowds.
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If this is a venue you do regularly, you might consider asking the venue to install a simple lighting bar or two on the ceiling.
At one small venue, I went so far as to sell them some lights too!
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I'm going to install 24 of these on a large stage in the next week. I bought one to demo, and they seem to be pretty cost-effective. I'll post my results after they are up.
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=612749&gclid=CjwKCAjwi6TYBRAYEiwAOeH7GVE1DOCa2NsnNDGG-2Yr2bdOl0267kDsG-PWCmH6haFtgkkaD-0WHBoCvIkQAvD_BwE
I was in Cabo, Mexico earlier this year and everyone was using those Chinese lights!
Here they are on ebay:
https://goo.gl/Xt3Ap2
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Your show looks very good - better than most. I would get rid of the 4-bars and replace with more T-12's, on taller stands.
For the illusion of movement, program your scenes so that some of the lights actually go off. This is how we did it with our old, fixed color pars. I've been programming more scenes like this and liking the results.
I agree that you could have better front lighting. I too tried lighting faces with a Hotbox5, and did not like the results, as the beam was too narrow and the light was harsh. I ended up using Par 38 cans with a 90W flood bulb - sometimes with gels. I also use speaker-mounted front spots almost everywhere, due to the same concerns. I had a shop weld up some brackets that I designed and they fit all of my speakers using the fly-points. Below is a pic from a gig earlier this year at a private event.
I've looked at a lot of COB lights but they don't have good spec's for brightness due to their wide spread. In addition, many of them are just RBG, which is horrible for lighting faces.
I have a couple of these $60 Chinese movers that are actually pretty cool. They can run on an "auto" program if you don't have a software based controller. They also look cool on fixed colors but with no movement. I program the scenes so that the light will move to a certain point as the scene changes, but stays at that point until the next scene is triggered.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LEYM5ZS/?coliid=I18D0QY764JH2&colid=1ZA0LKMGHFMHQ&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
I mix a bunch of tribute bands at a local venue. We use large numbers of the cheap, $40 Chinese leds for great effect. We have (2) MarQ movers, (6) of the cheap movers linked above, and about 16 Chinese pars, combined with the club's house pars which are also some old, Chinese lights with fixed-color led's. See the bottom pic. Almost everything there is a $40 Chinese light.
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If this is a venue you do regularly, you might consider asking the venue to install a simple lighting bar or two on the ceiling.
At one small venue, I went so far as to sell them some lights too!
You could also get some of the drop-ceiling mounts that clamp directly to the metal frame or replace a tile. No permanent mods needed, though slightly niche in deployment.
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Here's a better pic of my speaker brackets with the Par 38's.
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Hey Steve, do you have any close to photos of those?
In my head I imagined just a short bar with a spacer down to the mount points of the speakers, but maybe you have a better way.
Here's a better pic of my speaker brackets with the Par 38's.
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I wish this forum has like buttons. Thanks everyone that replied, all good things to consider.
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Hey Steve, do you have any close to photos of those?
In my head I imagined just a short bar with a spacer down to the mount points of the speakers, but maybe you have a better way.
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I wanted more height which looks better IMO. They all use the same M10 bolt, so I can unscrew from the bar and attach the light directly to the fly points if needed.
See attached photo and my drawing for manufacture.
The knobs come from JW Winco:
https://goo.gl/8YdbFW
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I made something similar to Steve by using some off the shelf corner braces. I got them powder coated black from Amazon. Two 12” brackets bolted together in a “C” work great. One M10 bolt mounts them on top of the mains. It’s solid!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/dc82bbb84b4291812dd127d0383d3ea7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/c3c787feb3e637f4e1654124bc5fce3c.jpg)
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I made something similar to Steve by using some off the shelf corner braces. I got them powder coated black from Amazon. Two 12” brackets bolted together in a “C” work great. One M10 bolt mounts them on top of the mains. It’s solid!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/dc82bbb84b4291812dd127d0383d3ea7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/c3c787feb3e637f4e1654124bc5fce3c.jpg)
Go to the Winco site I posted and you can get a hand-knob for $2. No wrench required and speeds up setup. Nice rig BTW and you can't go wrong with DSR's.
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So part one is almost ready, I've got 2 more hotbox rgba's that arrived today (thanks Mike).
I'll have a go and various mounting methods this week to get 2 lights on each speaker with a wider coverage than I have today with just 1
My new question for today though, when running rgba lights out front to light up the performers, what's the common way to configure them?
All channels on max, giving a bright, single colour?
Just the amber on max and RGB lower?
Brighter one side compared to the other to give depth?
Colour variation side to side?
At my level it doesn't even matter?
Etc.
Thanks!
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So part one is almost ready, I've got 2 more hotbox rgba's that arrived today (thanks Mike).
I'll have a go and various mounting methods this week to get 2 lights on each speaker with a wider coverage than I have today with just 1
My new question for today though, when running rgba lights out front to light up the performers, what's the common way to configure them?
All channels on max, giving a bright, single colour?
Just the amber on max and RGB lower?
Brighter one side compared to the other to give depth?
Colour variation side to side?
At my level it doesn't even matter?
Etc.
Thanks!
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The short answer, depends.
Long answer, depends. Some performers like lots of light, some like as little as possible. Depending on the intensity of your emitters you may have to experiment with different levels of the various color channels to find something pleasing. Experiment, experiment, experiment. Don't be afraid to take cues from other setups and incorporate them into your own. There is such a thing as too much, so think of extra effects like the hot sauce for your meal. A dash here and there to add a bit of flair, but not so much that it's overpowering (this also ties into the first point of performers not enjoying being dazzled by lights).
Really the biggest thing is placing the lights far enough forward of the performers that they don't look like they're recreating the Bohemian Rhapsody music video. Something like Steve's speaker mounts or your current trees should work fine.
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So part one is almost ready, I've got 2 more hotbox rgba's that arrived today (thanks Mike).
I'll have a go and various mounting methods this week to get 2 lights on each speaker with a wider coverage than I have today with just 1
My new question for today though, when running rgba lights out front to light up the performers, what's the common way to configure them?
All channels on max, giving a bright, single colour?
Just the amber on max and RGB lower?
Brighter one side compared to the other to give depth?
Colour variation side to side?
At my level it doesn't even matter?
Etc.
Thanks!
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I found this RGB color chart. I go with something close to Bastard Amber for the RGB and then set the Amber channel to 255. It’s better than full white in my opinion.
Play around with different colors and dimming levels to suit your setup and venue.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181115/1174b9a283495a3ff60ba39909591c84.jpg)
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That chart is for one particular make and type. It's different for every other make and type. Just experiment. Maybe use your phone's camera to judge the white-balance. In your case white is made by all 4 colours. Look for a healthy skin colour. Make sure one or more colours are at max (255), and use the scene faders for intensity. When you find the right colour write it down.
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I made a timber prototype this morning to get both speakers on top of my foh.
I can rotate the whole piece if I have issues with shadows and getting the angles right - I'm not sure if this is needed yet, but we'll see.
I will experiment a bit with the height off the speaker before having them made of steel or aluminium.
I think I might also be able to transport them like this, which could be a big time saver.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181117/96f5f3b37a9f2a0cdc4a95173e538c1d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181117/f7ad3a452bacb9301d4bf78421a8bbba.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181117/6c986da8631dd306a7fed24c560e3296.jpg)
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That chart is for one particular make and type. It's different for every other make and type. Just experiment. Maybe use your phone's camera to judge the white-balance. In your case white is made by all 4 colours. Look for a healthy skin colour. Make sure one or more colours are at max (255), and use the scene faders for intensity. When you find the right colour write it down.
Thanks Kevin for the chart and Geert for the timely reminder about different fixtures having different colours with the same RGBA values.
I'll try a few of these at home and see what works well for my fixtures.
Thanks!
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Another way to dress up a room quickly is to use battery-powered pars to uplight the room.
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Thanks Kevin for the chart and Geert for the timely reminder about different fixtures having different colours with the same RGBA values.
I'll try a few of these at home and see what works well for my fixtures.
Thanks!
Just be advised that the chart is for RBG fixtures. Your lights have amber & white (I believe) so you would not be blending colors to get those yellow colors, and likely a mixture of white and other colors for your front wash.
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I made a couple of bars to attach to my DSR fly points a while back and posted the info here. They work great.
However, I also got myself a couple of these lighting bracket (https://tracking.deepsearch.adlucent.com/adlucent/Redirector?retailer=music123&adl_channel=productads&adl_sku=J51867000000000-MF&adl_adType=PLA&adl_adid=221957295818&adl_device=c&adl_plaid=323968425343&location=9009718&audienceid=pla-323968425343&url=https://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/stagg-t-bar-lighting-extension-for-speaker-stand/j51867000000000?cntry=us&cntry=us&source=3WWRWXGP&cntry=us&source=3WWRWXGP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIptC5k8Pc3gIV5Y5bCh3thQs_EAQYASABEgLWIvD_BwE) which are really nice too and it means I don't have to attach anything to the tops of the speakers ( and some speakers don't have fly points anyway).
As long as the fixtures are not too heavy, they work well too and offer more positioning options.
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Thanks again to those that have input last year. The added 4 slimpar pro's have made a big difference, as did doubling the front hotbox's.
Last weekend I tried out using the old 4 bars on the foh extention poll. It added a little bit of flash, but they are just so far down on output compared with the others.
I think i'm pretty happy for now, see you in 2020 when I start looking for more... Again
Cheers,(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/cb73e33e8c6f1aac20d2be86c339389c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/cbbbe66767f9cdbccffb99541fc1c42d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/77fcba161d7f5373fb65c15e9067e41f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/c9c389e5065eac3077c1727bd561d0c4.jpg)
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Thanks again to those that have input last year. The added 4 slimpar pro's have made a big difference, as did doubling the front hotbox's.
Last weekend I tried out using the old 4 bars on the foh extention poll. It added a little bit of flash, but they are just so far down on output compared with the others.
I think i'm pretty happy for now, see you in 2020 when I start looking for more... Again
Cheers,(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/cb73e33e8c6f1aac20d2be86c339389c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/cbbbe66767f9cdbccffb99541fc1c42d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/77fcba161d7f5373fb65c15e9067e41f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/c9c389e5065eac3077c1727bd561d0c4.jpg)
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Looks good! You might consider aiming your back-lighting lower, and with a symmetrical pattern. It looks like you're trying to point them at things or people. With a 4-light bar, a typical aiming is a simple fan shape, pointing down about mid stage.
The mini lights would be far better if you placed 2 of them on the floor pointing back at the drum kit, and another pair pointing up on to your back drop, IMO.
I use speaker-mounted lights for front wash as well. It's obviously not optimum, but it beats the hell out of another pair of tripods out front!