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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Adamn Dumbster on April 03, 2016, 09:48:22 PM
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I operate a production company in Humboldt, CA. We setup EDM events and are about to invest in a Danley Rig. Events range from 8-24 hours nonstop with high SPL indoors and outdoors. I've already made contact with a dealer who gave me a quote. We're going to be getting:
x4 DHB218
x4 SH50T
x2 SM100M (DJ booth monitor)
x2 THmini (" " ")
The amplifiers that the dealer suggested were a single DNA20K4 for all 4 subs (2ohm@5000W), and two DNA10K4's to run the tops and booth monitors.
The DNA20K seems to be fine with running all 4 subs, same with the 10K running the monitors; but I'm concerned with the DNA10K and the SH50s. The SH50s operate at 1000Wcont.@4ohms but the 10K only puts out 1300W RMS.
300W doesn't seem like enough headroom for these beastly loudspeakers especially since we are going to be bumping the system for long periods of time. The dealer assured me that it will run the tops fine, but the DNA20K would be a way better fit at 2600W@4ohms correct?
Beyond that how does our system look? Eventually planning to add x4 more DBH218s when the capital is there.
Any personal input/tips are welcomed :)
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.... if your dealer isn't an idiot, you should have a good rig. Dealers don't make money from pissed off customers! A quick call to Danley in the morning would probably yield some solid results. I've not called them myself, but the impression I get here on the board is that they'll answer the phone and give you the straight poop.
-r
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Any personal input/tips are welcomed :)
I have a Danley rig and use it for EDM shows several times a year. I have to question why you would want SH50's if SPL is what you're after? Why not 4x SH46, which will give you twice the output?
As an stereo freak I wanted the SH50 for its better fidelity, but for EDM, that might actually work against you -- they don't want clean! They want LOUD! Not that the SH46 is not clean -- it is a mighty fine sounding box.
As for the amps, everyone has their favorites. I use Itech 9000 and 12000HD as well as QSC PLD4.5. They do a fine job on Danley boxes.
As Ray said, a call to Danley. Or perhaps Ivan can chime in.
Best,
John R.
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I think your reading the specks wrong. That's per-channel. So 1300 watts into each box, with 1 box per ch@4ohm. Sounds fine to me for a continuous output.
As for what box is better for your application I will defer to others.
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I operate a production company in Humboldt, CA. We setup EDM events and are about to invest in a Danley Rig. Events range from 8-24 hours nonstop with high SPL indoors and outdoors. I've already made contact with a dealer who gave me a quote. We're going to be getting:
x4 DHB218
x4 SH50T
x2 SM100M (DJ booth monitor)
x2 THmini (" " ")
The amplifiers that the dealer suggested were a single DNA20K4 for all 4 subs (2ohm@5000W), and two DNA10K4's to run the tops and booth monitors.
The DNA20K seems to be fine with running all 4 subs, same with the 10K running the monitors; but I'm concerned with the DNA10K and the SH50s. The SH50s operate at 1000Wcont.@4ohms but the 10K only puts out 1300W RMS.
300W doesn't seem like enough headroom for these beastly loudspeakers especially since we are going to be bumping the system for long periods of time. The dealer assured me that it will run the tops fine, but the DNA20K would be a way better fit at 2600W@4ohms correct?
Beyond that how does our system look? Eventually planning to add x4 more DBH218s when the capital is there.
Any personal input/tips are welcomed :)
For about the same price, I would suggest 2xSH96HO over any combination of 4 smaller speakers. You won't notice the 10º loss in horizontal coverage, but you WILL notice the extra 6db of output. Danley speakers array very well, but I believe the coherence of a SINGLE speaker per side will be better than two per side. Ivan will correct me here if I'm wrong on that.
For EDM I would power the cabinets at or near RMS levels. This is especially true for subs, but still applies to tops as well. So 1300 would be plenty for the SH50's. Doubling the power only gets you 3db, but a lot greater risk for failure. You're at the point of diminishing returns. BUT, I would suggest 2x DNA20KPro's. One can run the subs, the other can run the SH96HO's and the DJ monitors. No need for 3 amps, and you save a lot of money.
My suggestion for DJ monitors would be the SM100B, which has the sub(s) built in. It's a few hundred more than the combination of SM100/THMini, but again you'll have a single speaker and improved coherence. Not to mention it's MUCH larger than the SM100, which will make them 'sound better' to the DJ's.
As for the subs, have you considered the BC415? It's twice the price of the DBH218, but has more output than two DBH218, so you're getting a little bit more bang for your buck.
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For about the same price, I would suggest 2xSH96HO over any combination of 4 smaller speakers. You won't notice the 10º loss in horizontal coverage, but you WILL notice the extra 6db of output.
A single SH96 is going to have less output than two SH46 splayed. I believe SH46 and its Xover was designed to be used in pairs. I'm not sure the SH96 was designed to be stacked/used in pairs should you need more output.
It much easier for me to move, fly, and pull back two SH46's attached together. A single pick point and they're up, plus a couple of eyebolts for the pull back. The SH96 is a massive box. I believe you're supposed to use four eye bolts on top if you want to fly the SH96 (plus another two for the pull back).
I have not noticed coherency issues after using the SH46 for 3 years. I doubt people going to EDM shows will be that analytical. They'd rather be vaping and dancing!
John R.
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I operate a production company in Humboldt, CA. We setup EDM events and are about to invest in a Danley Rig. Events range from 8-24 hours nonstop with high SPL indoors and outdoors. I've already made contact with a dealer who gave me a quote. We're going to be getting:
x4 DHB218
x4 SH50T
x2 SM100M (DJ booth monitor)
x2 THmini (" " ")
The amplifiers that the dealer suggested were a single DNA20K4 for all 4 subs (2ohm@5000W), and two DNA10K4's to run the tops and booth monitors.
The DNA20K seems to be fine with running all 4 subs, same with the 10K running the monitors; but I'm concerned with the DNA10K and the SH50s. The SH50s operate at 1000Wcont.@4ohms but the 10K only puts out 1300W RMS.
300W doesn't seem like enough headroom for these beastly loudspeakers especially since we are going to be bumping the system for long periods of time. The dealer assured me that it will run the tops fine, but the DNA20K would be a way better fit at 2600W@4ohms correct?
Beyond that how does our system look? Eventually planning to add x4 more DBH218s when the capital is there.
Any personal input/tips are welcomed :)
Rather than try to answer the various questions posed by others and this post, let me try to put some ideas out there.
How is the system going to be deployed? Is it going to be stacked up? If so, then the 2 DBH218s are not going to be tall enough. You would do better using more TH118s to get the tops up higher.
Yes a single DBH218 is less money than a pair of TH118s, but if the tops are not high enough, you will have issues getting the sound to the back of the room.
The SH50s are great speakers, but would not be my first choice for EDM type music. For the money, a single SH96 would be a better choice (as compared to a pair of SH50s) per side.
That extra money could be put towards the difference in the price of the subs.
SH46s are much easier to move around a SH96 and get quite a bit louder. However, a pair of them per side is going to be a bit more than a pair of SH50s. But would also allow for larger gigs (once more subs are added).
As a good idea of "ratio", 4 DBH218s to a single SH96HO is a good EDM ratio for lots of pounding bass. The height is good also.
If the budget is fixed-personally I would go with more subs and use an SM80 for tops. You would be surprised at loud it can get with a lot of "subbage" under it.
At least for starters. Maybe later on go to some stronger tops
I would not use the SM100B for EDM monitors. It is a great sounding box that goes quite low. But the SM100F would be a better "full range" choice. It does not go as low-but gets louder than the SM100B. There will be plenty of deep bass coming from the subs anyway.
HOWEVER-both the SM100F and the proposed Sm100M/THmini combo will not provide the SPL needed by most mid level and up DJs. A setup of Sm80s and TH118s is very popular and gets quite loud and makes them happy.
Yes it is more money-but could cost less due to less blown drivers. But if the monitors are properly limited, the worst that would happen is they are not loud enough-but at least they won't blow up.
The DNA amps have a VERY GOOD limiting section in them, so when the recommended settings are used- driver failure should not be a problem.
Very soon they will have presets for all the Danley products in them.
But if you want to stick with the proposed setup-the 10K amps would be fine for the SH50s or the SH46s.
You have to consider than when running for long periods of time, you should be using LESS power to the loudspeakers-NOT more.
The power ratings are over a specified period of time, using a specified crest factor signal. Loudspeakers continue to heat up the more you use them, so it is better not to continue to heat them up.
The one advantage to using all the same sized amp is that if one should fail you can swap them around as needed.
But THAT would be the reason to go with the 20K, NOT the additional power for the full range cabinets.
But the suggested amps for the suggested setup is a good recommendation.
I hope this gives some ideas.
I am open to more questions/suggestions.
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Ivan is right on with getting the speakers high enough. For EDM shows, you don't necessarily need even front-to-back coverage. You want to to cover the dance area, so it is very common to get the boxes as high as possible and pull back. Often times, ground stack just won't do it.
Having done quite a few EDM-type gigs in various venues, I'm pretty certain the OP will be flying the speakers sooner or later. Outdoor, it could be a truss-roof or mobile stage with wings/bars he can attach chain hoists and fly the speakers. Indoor, it could be a high-ceiling warehouse-type places where motors can be rigged. Some places it will be Genie supertowers. In any case, one has to think ahead about how these speakers will be deployed. Consideration has to be made whether it's feasible to ground stack -- be able to lift the 200+ lbs. and put them on top of subs (or multiple subs stacked) high enough. 2x SH46 and a single SH96 weigh almost the same.
I've stacked SH46's (individually) on top of two TH118 sitting on their sides and that wasn't high enough. Then we tried three TH118's on top of each other as the foundation and let me tell you, it was downright dangerous to try and lift the SH46's and get them that high.
The SH96/SH96HO (bi-amped SH96) are great boxes, and for installs in a club where they won't be constantly put up and torn down, that would be my first choice. But for a portable application, I need to be able to fly the speakers FAST. This is where (2) SH46s with the MB50 flybar is just so much easier than flying one SH96 with four eyebolts and cables. Being able to hook a motor to a single shackle saves tremendous amount of time. Pulling back and toeing-in a pair of SH46's attached is really easy.
So there's more to it than what sounds better or goes louder.
John R.
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But for a portable application, I need to be able to fly the speakers FAST. This is where (2) SH46s with the MB50 flybar is just so much easier than flying one SH96 with four eyebolts and cables. Being able to hook a motor to a single shackle saves tremendous amount of time. Pulling back and toeing-in a pair of SH46's attached is really easy.
You can keep the 46s bolted together and put them in a road case as a single unit-or on a dolly as a single unit.
Then-as you say-pick with the MB50 bracket in the middle.
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You can keep the 46s bolted together and put them in a road case as a single unit-or on a dolly as a single unit.
Then-as you say-pick with the MB50 bracket in the middle.
Ivan, that's exactly how I have them. I never take the bolted pairs apart.
Easy to transport the pair on standard size mover's dolly, except dragging through grass...
The dolly fits perfectly in between Genie Supertower outriggers.
John R.
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Ivan, that's exactly how I have them. I never take the bolted pairs apart.
Easy to transport the pair on standard size mover's dolly, except dragging through grass...
The dolly fits perfectly in between Genie Supertower outriggers.
John R.
And if you need more output- you can do a quad SH46 with a single hang point
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I operate a production company in Humboldt, CA. We setup EDM events and are about to invest in a Danley Rig. Events range from 8-24 hours nonstop with high SPL indoors and outdoors. I've already made contact with a dealer who gave me a quote. We're going to be getting:
x4 DHB218
x4 SH50T
x2 SM100M (DJ booth monitor)
x2 THmini (" " ")
The amplifiers that the dealer suggested were a single DNA20K4 for all 4 subs (2ohm@5000W), and two DNA10K4's to run the tops and booth monitors.
The DNA20K seems to be fine with running all 4 subs, same with the 10K running the monitors; but I'm concerned with the DNA10K and the SH50s. The SH50s operate at 1000Wcont.@4ohms but the 10K only puts out 1300W RMS.
300W doesn't seem like enough headroom for these beastly loudspeakers especially since we are going to be bumping the system for long periods of time. The dealer assured me that it will run the tops fine, but the DNA20K would be a way better fit at 2600W@4ohms correct?
Beyond that how does our system look? Eventually planning to add x4 more DBH218s when the capital is there.
Any personal input/tips are welcomed :)
Hi Adam,
I second everything that Ivan said in his reply. I would definitely consider going SH46s/SH96HO per side for tops with SM80/TH118's for monitors. You can always turn it down, but you can't turn it up (past the limits--i.e. better to have too much than too little). I also second the recommendation of using the DNA20k amps on everything. Dial in the limiters appropriately and you'll be good to go. If you'd like another quote and/or more advice feel free to reach out to me directly.
Thank you,
Jeff
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I operate a production company in Humboldt, CA. We setup EDM events and are about to invest in a Danley Rig. Events range from 8-24 hours nonstop with high SPL indoors and outdoors. I've already made contact with a dealer who gave me a quote. We're going to be getting:
x4 DHB218
x4 SH50T
x2 SM100M (DJ booth monitor)
x2 THmini (" " ")
The amplifiers that the dealer suggested were a single DNA20K4 for all 4 subs (2ohm@5000W), and two
DNA10K4's to run the tops and booth monitors.
The DNA20K seems to be fine with running all 4 subs, same with the 10K running the monitors; but I'm concerned with the DNA10K and the SH50s. The SH50s operate at 1000Wcont.@4ohms but the 10K only puts out 1300W RMS.
300W doesn't seem like enough headroom for these beastly loudspeakers especially since we are going to be bumping the system for long periods of time. The dealer assured me that it will run the tops fine, but the DNA20K would be a way better fit at 2600W@4ohms correct?
Beyond that how does our system look? Eventually planning to add x4 more DBH218s when the capital is there.
Any personal input/tips are welcomed :)
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Reach out to these guys they have gigs all over the place so you can hear for yourself they partner with Danley .
https://www.facebook.com/PureGrooveSystems/?fref=nf
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Thanks for all your guy's input, much appreciated.
I'm starting to lean towards x2 SH96's (not the HO version) instead of 4 smaller cabinets. We were planning to do a split ground stack. One of my concerns from the start has been the height of x2 DBH218s stacked up and I have been brainstorming ways to get the tops up higher without dropping serious $ on crank stands/other flyware. I did come across this setup that we might mimic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRWITOQ2JsI
(if anyone has an idea of where they got the truss risers or how they built them please do tell)
I don't mind the size/weight of the SH96's because we'll have plenty of manpower and time to set up. The 2 box solution looks more promising to me because when we add x2 more subs for a total of x6 dbh218s, a pair of DNA20K4s will run the whole system. (If I'm correct with the power rating for the SH96 w/ 1400W@8ohms). Having 3 dual subs per side will give our desired height for the tops. And to be honest a SH96 on top of 3-4 DBH218s looks sexy as fudge ;)
As some of you suggested since we're starting out with x4 subs x2 SH96s, we would have 2 additional channels on one of the DNA20K's that could power monitors. We will probably add 2 smaller subs for the DJ booth later on (as Ivan said there will be plenty of low end coming from the sides of the stage [our stagesize/overall gigs are pretty small, usually no more than 500 people]). I'm actually considering low balling on the DJ monitors considering how many twats there are these days cranking the shiz out of them. Especially since most DJs don't care about fidelity a pair of QSC K12s should do the trick haha!
Cheers
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And if you need more output- you can do a quad SH46 with a single hang point
Hey, that looks familiar....
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And if you need more output- you can do a quad SH46 with a single hang point
Isn't that a 40º horizontal by 60º vertical? So wouldn't that array give you 120º vertical if splayed properly?
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Isn't that a 40º horizontal by 60º vertical? So wouldn't that array give you 120º vertical if splayed properly?
The SH46s are tight packed-so it is 80* wide and 60* tall.
This was done for shear output and to be "over the top".
For a lot of the gigs this company does, they just use 2 per side.
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The SH46s are tight packed-so it is 80* wide and 60* tall.
This was done for shear output and to be "over the top".
For a lot of the gigs this company does, they just use 2 per side.
With what appears to be 4x BC415, I would say it's very much 'over the top'!
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With what appears to be 4x BC415, I would say it's very much 'over the top'!
The 4 BC415s are in a directional configuration to keep the energy towards the ocean.
Danley 12K amps power it all. 8 for the whole main system. 4 subs (1 each) and the SH46s are biamped.
This is for a EDM show on South beach in Miami.
"Excess" is what it is all about.
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And if you need more output- you can do a quad SH46 with a single hang point
That's not a sound system...that's a WMD!
John R.
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I would echo Ivan and Jeffrey, SH96/SH96HO/SH46 for tops. SM80 over TH118 for monitors. The only weak point are the subs, 4x DBH are great but not loud enough. 8x would do better, maybe the -LC version if the BC218's are out of budget.
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If you're anywhere close to Bakersfield, stop by Freestyle Event Services. They are a dealer and have production experience with various Danley boxes.
Although you won't go wrong with any Danley, you should talk to the people who use them regularly and get their input. Sometimes what you want may not be what you need.
John R.
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The only thing i dont like about the sh46 flyware is the pick points do not have any angles numbered. Its just blank with lots of choices. I use it all the time with my sh46s.
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If you're anywhere close to Bakersfield, stop by Freestyle Event Services. They are a dealer and have production experience with various Danley boxes.
Although you won't go wrong with any Danley, you should talk to the people who use them regularly and get their input. Sometimes what you want may not be what you need.
John R.
If you are down in the Santa Barbara area I use SH96HO's and DBH218 subs I can do a demo for you I'm also a dealer.
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The only thing i dont like about the sh46 flyware is the pick points do not have any angles numbered. Its just blank with lots of choices. I use it all the time with my sh46s.
10-4 Ted, although it's usually the last or 3rd from the last one for me...
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The only thing i dont like about the sh46 flyware is the pick points do not have any angles numbered. Its just blank with lots of choices. I use it all the time with my sh46s.
The MB50 bracket is used for several different products-so each one would be different.
Also you can use it to fly 2 or 3 (or more if you want) wide cabinets.
Each configuration would be a different angle.
It is simple enough to either throw a level (or phone app) on the cabinets or simply look at where it is aimed.
You don't need to get "hung up" with the angles as much as with a line array-because the vertical coverage is so much taller.
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The MB50 bracket is used for several different products-so each one would be different.
Also you can use it to fly 2 or 3 (or more if you want) wide cabinets.
Each configuration would be a different angle.
It is simple enough to either throw a level (or phone app) on the cabinets or simply look at where it is aimed.
You don't need to get "hung up" with the angles as much as with a line array-because the vertical coverage is so much taller.
If i need to use Danley design software and am wanting to cover a specific area it would be beneficial to use pre marked angles to only hang the box once.
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I would think that if you're only using the flyware on one particular rig, it would be easy enough to use an angle indicator (Harbor Freight) or phone app to measure how it hangs and mark the holes.
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I would think that if you're only using the flyware on one particular rig, it would be 6easy enough to use an angle indicator (Harbor Freight) or phone app to measure how it hangs and mark the holes.
Agreed, i dont own genies. I rent. I have no other way to fly them.
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If i need to use Danley design software and am wanting to cover a specific area it would be beneficial to use pre marked angles to only hang the box once.
If it's your rig it should be easy enough to pick it up a few times in the shop and mark the angles on the holes with a sharpie in the configurations you use it.
Mac