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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Audio Measurement and Testing => Topic started by: John Neil on February 03, 2012, 02:24:48 PM
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Straightforward question for those who have done it...
Currently have one presonus audiobox usb that won't stand up to much more briefcase carry, and one USBPre 1.5 as the current device. I'm a briefcase guy, not a "please wheel my FOH rack out to the riser" touring kind of guy.
What's the easy way for SMAART? Carry multiple USBPres or get something bigger for the bigger days? Audiobox 1818 or 44?
Current laptop has limited USB inputs so I'd be tempted to use a USB hub if device count got staggering.
Durability becomes less important to me for a larger unit. On days when I want the extra inputs I can plan accordingly to have a friendlier home for the hardware, or even a rack.
For the record, the audiobox usb (two channel) was disappointing as the inputs were always routed to the outputs, even with the "foldback" knob turned all the way down. According to Presonus, this was supposed to be this way and couldn't be changed. If you were trying to use your interface as your source material, this lead to some interesting system feedback...as your measurements were now routed back to your source. So then I just used the headphone out of the laptop or pink on ipod as source material and had the presonus be input only.
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Straightforward question for those who have done it...
Currently have one presonus audiobox usb that won't stand up to much more briefcase carry, and one USBPre 1.5 as the current device. I'm a briefcase guy, not a "please wheel my FOH rack out to the riser" touring kind of guy.
What's the easy way for SMAART? Carry multiple USBPres or get something bigger for the bigger days? Audiobox 1818 or 44?
Current laptop has limited USB inputs so I'd be tempted to use a USB hub if device count got staggering.
I carry my Roland Octa-Capture (http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1127) in my briefcase along with the PS and 1 microphone. The same wheeled briefcase also carries my laptop with PS, iPad, and various chargers for phones and iPad, as well as usual personal stuff.
It also fits in my suitcase packed between my clothes, but then attracts the attention of airport security, and puts me perilous close to the 50lb limit on that bag (it's at 48lb without).
The Octa-Capture is a nice 8x8 analog interface with easy to control mic pres. I have Smaart use outputs 5&6 for reference and PA, iTunes uses outs 1&2. Smaart uses inputs 1-5 for 4 mics and reference.
I am not a USB Pre fan, they have never been reliable on my computers. This is in part due to the fact that I don't own one, and have to make other people's work on my machine, which always seems to involve hunting for the right driver. The Roland has been trouble free.
Mac
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We have the Roland Octa-Capture as well. It works well with Smaart, Protools 9, and QLab, and have used it well on both Windows and Mac OS 10.6, though I don't do all three at the same time. I will likely buy my own Octa-Capture when I buy my own copy of Smaart later this spring.
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I use the MOTU 8 pre as my multichannel interface.
Works fine.
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I use the MOTU 8 pre as my multichannel interface.
Works fine.
Looks like USB limits the choices.
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Looks like USB limits the choices.
Pretty much anything with more than 2 channels will be physically larger... rack mount size, usually. As for USB being the limit... it's probably more of a Firewire legacy issue. Most of the multi-channel interfaces were designed back when 1394a was used because it required almost no CPU overhead; all USB data goes through the CPU, stealing clock cycles from processing.
If you have USB only, the Roland is *the* box to have. Should you have 1394a, you can get the Presonus Firebox Studio Project. I think it's been discontinued or "updated" or some such, but can be found on fleabay. There are other choices that might work, but those 2 are the most common I've seen in use.
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
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I use the MOTU 8 pre as my multichannel interface.
Works fine.
I use the Motu traveler. While it only has 2 preamps it does have 8 channels of input. I find I use the line inputs as often as I use the mic preamps.
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Just to throw another option out there Tascam has this.
http://tascam.com/product/us-1800/images/
8 pre's 4 line outs, USB, and single rackspace.
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Straightforward question for those who have done it...
Currently have one presonus audiobox usb that won't stand up to much more briefcase carry, and one USBPre 1.5 as the current device. I'm a briefcase guy, not a "please wheel my FOH rack out to the riser" touring kind of guy.
What's the easy way for SMAART? Carry multiple USBPres or get something bigger for the bigger days? Audiobox 1818 or 44?
Current laptop has limited USB inputs so I'd be tempted to use a USB hub if device count got staggering.
Durability becomes less important to me for a larger unit. On days when I want the extra inputs I can plan accordingly to have a friendlier home for the hardware, or even a rack.
For the record, the audiobox usb (two channel) was disappointing as the inputs were always routed to the outputs, even with the "foldback" knob turned all the way down. According to Presonus, this was supposed to be this way and couldn't be changed. If you were trying to use your interface as your source material, this lead to some interesting system feedback...as your measurements were now routed back to your source. So then I just used the headphone out of the laptop or pink on ipod as source material and had the presonus be input only.
What laptop are you using? Do you possible have a PCMCIA slot on your laptop so that you can add Firewire to you laptop? If so that is the way to go. I would recommend a Presonus or Moto interface.
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What laptop are you using? Do you possible have a PCMCIA slot on your laptop so that you can add Firewire to you laptop? If so that is the way to go. I would recommend a Presonus or Moto interface.
This is what I do. Belkin card, Presonus interfaces for now.
I have a Firebox and a Firestudio project.
For Presonus, the 1394 chip in the card should be TI. It matters.
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This is what I do. Belkin card, Presonus interfaces for now.
I have a Firebox and a Firestudio project.
For Presonus, the 1394 chip in the card should be TI. It matters.
Yes the firewire chip matters, but there are more than the TI that work.
http://www.presonus.com/media/pdf/hardware_compatibility.pdf
Here is a link the Presonus chart that lists all test and compatible & non-compatible chips. They also have a small executable file that you can download and run on your computer and it will test your firewire chip and tell you if it is compatible or not. I put that on my flash drive and went to the computer store and tested different laptops and firewire cards before I even bought one.
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Yes the firewire chip matters, but there are more than the TI that work.
http://www.presonus.com/media/pdf/hardware_compatibility.pdf
Here is a link the Presonus chart that lists all test and compatible & non-compatible chips. They also have a small executable file that you can download and run on your computer and it will test your firewire chip and tell you if it is compatible or not. I put that on my flash drive and went to the computer store and tested different laptops and firewire cards before I even bought one.
That all seems like a lot of bother and expense when there are USB devices that work great and only require USB2. The Roland is 8 mic in, 8 line out, stereo SPDIF in and stereo SPDIF out, 10x10 all routable with built in mixer as well for $600. No worries about which firewire chip you have.
Mac
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That all seems like a lot of bother and expense when there are USB devices that work great and only require USB2. The Roland is 8 mic in, 8 line out, stereo SPDIF in and stereo SPDIF out, 10x10 all routable with built in mixer as well for $600. No worries about which firewire chip you have.
Mac
Agreed.
One thing for everyone to note; USB2 is technically as fast, or faster than FW400. Unlike Firewire though, the USB shares it's bandwidth with everything else on the bus. If you have anything plugged in to your USB port it will affect the performance of the soundcard.
Also, USB is not full duplex. It has to break up incoming and outgoing messages into smaller chunks and send them in turn. Firewire can send and receive at the same time. This means that you may have troubles using 8 mics receiving while playing pink noise over a USB soundcard.
Using fewer mics, or putting the reference noise source on a CD may be needed.
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Agreed.
One thing for everyone to note; USB2 is technically as fast, or faster than FW400. Unlike Firewire though, the USB shares it's bandwidth with everything else on the bus. If you have anything plugged in to your USB port it will affect the performance of the soundcard.
Also, USB is not full duplex. It has to break up incoming and outgoing messages into smaller chunks and send them in turn. Firewire can send and receive at the same time. This means that you may have troubles using 8 mics receiving while playing pink noise over a USB soundcard.
Using fewer mics, or putting the reference noise source on a CD may be needed.
On paper USB2 is as fast but I have seen time and time again benchmark test have never been able to even crack 300mb on USB2. And USB has all of those other problems that you mentioned, USB is just not pro grade.
The problem with the firewire chips and the Presonus interfaces is a new problem with their new gear. They are in the process of fixing it via firmware and software upgrades. The older Presonus firebox never had that issue and is what I usually recommend to people that don't want to go threw much trouble to make it work.
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On paper USB2 is as fast but I have seen time and time again benchmark test have never been able to even crack 300mb on USB2. And USB has all of those other problems that you mentioned, USB is just not pro grade.
The problem with the firewire chips and the Presonus interfaces is a new problem with their new gear. They are in the process of fixing it via firmware and software upgrades. The older Presonus firebox never had that issue and is what I usually recommend to people that don't want to go threw much trouble to make it work.
In looking back at my post I said "technically" when what I really meant was "theoretically". We all know that usb is not as fast, but it is fast enough for measurement work, and it comes with a LOT less hassles.
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In looking back at my post I said "technically" when what I really meant was "theoretically". We all know that usb is not as fast, but it is fast enough for measurement work, and it comes with a LOT less hassles.
A lot less hassle? You just listed why USB is more hassle.
"USB shares it's bandwidth with everything else on the bus"
"If you have anything plugged in to your USB port it will affect the performance of the soundcard"
"USB is not full duplex"
"you may have troubles using 8 mics receiving while playing pink noise over a USB soundcard"
Plus, "putting the reference noise source on a CD may be needed"
What a hassle a USB interface sounds!
I bet every USB interface has worked perfectly every time, no problems, right?
There has to be a reason that Firewire interfaces are the industry standard, probably because they are more hassle, right?
USB is lower end, period. However, sometimes that is all you have so it is what you have to use.
There are many Firewire interfaces on the market from reputable companies and the new Presonus Firestudio is the only one I have heard any problems with regarding conflicts with Firewire chips. I am sure there are more as there are conflicts will all types of hardware on all types of systems, but it is not very common.
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A lot less hassle? You just listed why USB is more hassle.
"USB shares it's bandwidth with everything else on the bus"
"If you have anything plugged in to your USB port it will affect the performance of the soundcard"
"USB is not full duplex"
"you may have troubles using 8 mics receiving while playing pink noise over a USB soundcard"
Plus, "putting the reference noise source on a CD may be needed"
What a hassle a USB interface sounds!
I bet every USB interface has worked perfectly every time, no problems, right?
There has to be a reason that Firewire interfaces are the industry standard, probably because they are more hassle, right?
USB is lower end, period. However, sometimes that is all you have so it is what you have to use.
There are many Firewire interfaces on the market from reputable companies and the new Presonus Firestudio is the only one I have heard any problems with regarding conflicts with Firewire chips. I am sure there are more as there are conflicts will all types of hardware on all types of systems, but it is not very common.
Mine has worked perfectly every time. And as far as I can see there are no hassles at all. You plug in a cable to a port that is far more universally available, and you're done. I admit I have only used 5 in and 4 out simultaneously, with the 4 outs being fed by 2 different pieces of software, but I have no doubt it will work at 10x10 at a time.
This all works while the USB bus is also talking to the console. No glitches so far.
Firewire became the audio standard when there was only USB type 1 which could not support this many channels. I have other audio interfaces that are FW, but the Roland has the type of I/O I need and it is reasonably priced.
Do you have some actual evidence of USB failing to handle this many channels?
Mac
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Mine has worked perfectly every time. And as far as I can see there are no hassles at all. You plug in a cable to a port that is far more universally available, and you're done. I admit I have only used 5 in and 4 out simultaneously, with the 4 outs being fed by 2 different pieces of software, but I have no doubt it will work at 10x10 at a time.
This all works while the USB bus is also talking to the console. No glitches so far.
Firewire became the audio standard when there was only USB type 1 which could not support this many channels. I have other audio interfaces that are FW, but the Roland has the type of I/O I need and it is reasonably priced.
Do you have some actual evidence of USB failing to handle this many channels?
Mac
I have had several people come to me complaining about how their USB interface drops signal. They say it works fine if you not doing much on it but when you start running more programs or plugins it cuts out and then will come back online after about 30 second.
Here is the reason it does that, USB is controlled by the computers CPU. So it might work great when you’re playing your favorite song out of itunes, but when you start to run a large, processor and CPU heavy application it will drop the signal because USB connected devices have a lower priority on the computer hierarchy and it is one of the first things to suffer. If your interface is going to suffer then why is the point of trying to get better quality hardware? Firewire uses dedicated chips with dedicated hardware that does not have to fight or compete for system recourses. I don't understand why there is a debate really, there are 10 times more firewire interfaces sold, all of the high end equipment is all firewire, anyone could figure out it is better.
Example: I know this is an audio conversation but I will give an example about video to back up what I have said to show cross platform performance. Canon has in the last 2 years completely revamped their pro camera line. One would think that if USB were better and less susceptible to failure then they would use USB to interface a camera with a computer. However, they are using Firewire on their most high end cameras. If you try and dump your camera video onto a computer using USB you will drop frames constantly, making your video useless. I just imported 1 hour and 48 minutes of HD video from a Canon camera onto my computer. 0 dropped frames. Once upon a time I was importing SD video with a USB converter, I would get dropped frames quite frequently, and that was on SD video.
USB interfraces also have far more latency then firewire interfaces. Try setting a delay on a system with an interface that gives you 48ms of latency, I hope the people listening are deaf.
Firewire is superior, but as I said before, sometimes firewire isn't an option so USB will have to do. Regardless, just about any interface will yield better results than the built in sound card on a computer.
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So it might work great when you’re playing your favorite song out of itunes, but when you start to run a large, processor and CPU heavy application it will drop the signal because USB connected devices have a lower priority on the computer hierarchy and it is one of the first things to suffer. If your interface is going to suffer then why is the point of trying to get better quality hardware? Firewire uses dedicated chips with dedicated hardware that does not have to fight or compete for system recourses. I don't understand why there is a debate really, there are 10 times more firewire interfaces sold, all of the high end equipment is all firewire, anyone could figure out it is better.
Example: I know this is an audio conversation but I will give an example about video to back up what I have said to show cross platform performance. Canon has in the last 2 years completely revamped their pro camera line. One would think that if USB were better and less susceptible to failure then they would use USB to interface a camera with a computer. However, they are using Firewire on their most high end cameras. If you try and dump your camera video onto a computer using USB you will drop frames constantly, making your video useless. I just imported 1 hour and 48 minutes of HD video from a Canon camera onto my computer. 0 dropped frames. Once upon a time I was importing SD video with a USB converter, I would get dropped frames quite frequently, and that was on SD video.
USB interfraces also have far more latency then firewire interfaces. Try setting a delay on a system with an interface that gives you 48ms of latency, I hope the people listening are deaf.
Firewire is superior, but as I said before, sometimes firewire isn't an option so USB will have to do. Regardless, just about any interface will yield better results than the built in sound card on a computer.
Even SD video has way higher bandwidth needs than 16 channels of audio, so it is irrelevant in a discussion of audio devices. If CPU load is such a hazard to my USB interface I'm amazed it works, since what I am always running while using 5 inputs and 4 outputs is Smaart, Yamaha Studio Manager, iTunes, Vectorworks, Safari, and Mail. Smaart and Vectorworks are pretty CPU intensive and have no effect.
The latency in my system is less than a couple of milliseconds, I don't know how you arrive at 48ms of latency, but even if the interface did have 48 ms of latency, it would not effect the measurement result because the latency is applied to both the reference and measurement channels.
The main reason this is still worth discussing is because there are fewer and fewer Firewire equipped laptops around, making USB more viable.
Mac
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Even SD video has way higher bandwidth needs than 16 channels of audio, so it is irrelevant in a discussion of audio devices. If CPU load is such a hazard to my USB interface I'm amazed it works, since what I am always running while using 5 inputs and 4 outputs is Smaart, Yamaha Studio Manager, iTunes, Vectorworks, Safari, and Mail. Smaart and Vectorworks are pretty CPU intensive and have no effect.
The latency in my system is less than a couple of milliseconds, I don't know how you arrive at 48ms of latency, but even if the interface did have 48 ms of latency, it would not effect the measurement result because the latency is applied to both the reference and measurement channels.
The main reason this is still worth discussing is because there are fewer and fewer Firewire equipped laptops around, making USB more viable.
Mac
We are having about the same conversation on two different sections it seems.
I wasn't saying your interface or any interface had 48ms, it was just a random number I threw out there. Most USB interfaces are described as a "Low-Latency" device. Most Firewire interfaces are described as "Zero-Latency". Yes they are not true zero-latency but they get so close it is hard to tell a difference. Firewire devices tend to have lower latency than USB devices. You are 100% correct that the latency is applied to both channels.
Yes even SD video is more data intense than audio but it was a mere comparison as to the lower bandwidth capability and reliability of USB connections. USB data is processed via the CPU so you can not discount the fact that a heavily taxed CPU could cause problems with USB connected devices. Firewire has dedicated chips that process the firewire connection give higher reliability.
I agree, firewire is becoming more and more rare to find on new laptops and it is hard, if not impossible, to add firewire expansion cards to laptops now days so a LOT of the time USB is the ONLY way to go. I would never buy a laptop that couldn't do what I wanted it to do and stand up the challenging demands I put on my equipment.
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I would never buy a laptop that couldn't do what I wanted it to do and stand up the challenging demands I put on my equipment.
Nor would I.
Mac
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Straightforward question for those who have done it...
Currently have one presonus audiobox usb that won't stand up to much more briefcase carry, and one USBPre 1.5 as the current device. I'm a briefcase guy, not a "please wheel my FOH rack out to the riser" touring kind of guy.
What's the easy way for SMAART? Carry multiple USBPres or get something bigger for the bigger days? Audiobox 1818 or 44?
Current laptop has limited USB inputs so I'd be tempted to use a USB hub if device count got staggering.
Durability becomes less important to me for a larger unit. On days when I want the extra inputs I can plan accordingly to have a friendlier home for the hardware, or even a rack.
For the record, the audiobox usb (two channel) was disappointing as the inputs were always routed to the outputs, even with the "foldback" knob turned all the way down. According to Presonus, this was supposed to be this way and couldn't be changed. If you were trying to use your interface as your source material, this lead to some interesting system feedback...as your measurements were now routed back to your source. So then I just used the headphone out of the laptop or pink on ipod as source material and had the presonus be input only.
John,
I carry an older USBPre that replaced my AudioControl analog unit and I just picked up and Allan & Heath ZED 10 mixer with 4 mic inputs with 2 channel USB capability ($250). I will be testing the unit in the shop before it goes out. I'm also going to do some A/B measurents against the USBPre. I didn't buy it for to use with measurement rig, but it looks promising.
JP
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The main reason this is still worth discussing is because there are fewer and fewer Firewire equipped laptops around, making USB more viable.
Mac
There are also fewer and fewer laptops with card slots, so no way to go FW - unless someone makes a FW to Ethernet interface.
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There are also fewer and fewer laptops with card slots, so no way to go FW - unless someone makes a FW to Ethernet interface.
The Aubion X.8 is almost ready to ship. It's not cheap, however, $1500 or so.
It's neither FW or USB, PC audio and control is via Ethernet. Requires Bonjour service for discovery.
http://www.dspecialists.com/sites/default/files/product/aubion_x8_data_sheet_v20.pdf
U.S. availability will be through Renkus-Heinz. I'm pretty sure I will have one to evaluate at Ultra in a couple of weeks.
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I carry my Roland Octa-Capture (http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1127) in my briefcase along with the PS and 1 microphone. The same wheeled briefcase also carries my laptop with PS, iPad, and various chargers for phones and iPad, as well as usual personal stuff.
Mac
Mac, is it really 2" tall? (not standard single space rackmount height)
Secondly, can I see a photo of your wheeled briefcase? I'm considering some different options as my backpack is just too darn heavy for my rhomboids.
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Mac, is it really 2" tall? (not standard single space rackmount height)
Secondly, can I see a photo of your wheeled briefcase? I'm considering some different options as my backpack is just too darn heavy for my rhomboids.
I haven't measured the height as I don't have it rackmounted. Here is the case (http://travelpro.com/viewByStyle.cfm?style=Rolling%20Computer%20Briefs#). I have the deluxe.
Mac
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Mac, is it really 2" tall? (not standard single space rackmount height)
Secondly, can I see a photo of your wheeled briefcase? I'm considering some different options as my backpack is just too darn heavy for my rhomboids.
I think that 2" height is with the rubber feet that come with it. I have ours mounted in the rack next to our console at FOH and, while it does does out of the front about a half inch (maybe 3/4?), it does fit in a standard rack space.
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The Aubion X.8 is almost ready to ship. It's not cheap, however, $1500 or so.
It's neither FW or USB, PC audio and control is via Ethernet. Requires Bonjour service for discovery.
http://www.dspecialists.com/sites/default/files/product/aubion_x8_data_sheet_v20.pdf
U.S. availability will be through Renkus-Heinz. I'm pretty sure I will have one to evaluate at Ultra in a couple of weeks.
Quick review: Aubion x.8 works brilliantly. Both control and audio travel over Ethernet. Accurate self-reference without external cabling when using the SysTune generator.
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The Aubion X.8 is almost ready to ship. It's not cheap, however, $1500 or so.
It's neither FW or USB, PC audio and control is via Ethernet. Requires Bonjour service for discovery.
http://www.dspecialists.com/sites/default/files/product/aubion_x8_data_sheet_v20.pdf (http://www.dspecialists.com/sites/default/files/product/aubion_x8_data_sheet_v20.pdf)
U.S. availability will be through Renkus-Heinz. I'm pretty sure I will have one to evaluate at Ultra in a couple of weeks.
A few corrections. Aubion X.8 started shipping last November. And it is available directly from DSPecialists at http://aubion.com or from the AFMG store at http://store.afmg.eu but not from Renkus-Heinz.
Bruce